Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

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Originally Posted by Raubahn

well they are called relic + has the best status in-game also (example: Gae bolg has highest DMG and highest DPS + the massive status it has) we dont want alot of the player base to have the relic weapons very fast like AF hell no i refuse that,plus its challanging imagine breaking up alot of Obelisks or Avengers for Double melding only its really good i dont want to have a whole ls posing with their Relics or Garuda weapons. no i want it to be based on luck with everyone given an equal chance plus with Militia Acc. u can get more HQ for materials or Double down so whats the problem really?

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Raubahn, just how much gil do you have to blow on the attempts? IF you're at cap or close to it I'll happily take donations.:P

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Originally Posted by Noir

Same stupid idea like the Garuda blm burn. Ppl complained about it and guess what? All hardcore ls have all weapons and nobody else have or even do Garuda anymore. Same thing with these af. ALL hardcore ls will have it. And nobody else will. If that's the way the devs want, just say so. I said before and I will repeat. Stop the fcking whinning because hardcore played will always get the stuff and making things harder will always fuck the casual player base and others that can't be playing for 72 hours non stop.

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Totally agree, somewhere along the line SE forgot about the casual players, who for whatever reason can't play 24/7 like others.

The only thing that stopped casual Timmy from getting Garuda weapons was because casual Timmy sucked at the game. What's the point of even having a challenging fight if you want it just handed to you? That's what keeps you playing, the carrot on the stick. Get good enough at the game/put in the time and you get rewarded.

Don't get me wrong, I've complained numerous times about the heavy casino factor this game has, but really that's a poor example of why people don't do it.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Who said you needed 3 balled gear to beat Garuda? You are trying too hard.

I play rather casually putting time in when I can and I've had no issues beating Ifrit or Moogle, I haven't had time to fight Garuda but I'm sure with enough practice (Yeah it might take me a few days to get it down due to my time constraints) Me and my friends could bring her down.

Moogle was the same I got utterly curb stomped my first run and now I can log whenever I have time and me and my friends can down moogle pretty much whenever we want because while casual we are still good players.

You need to change your perspective on what a "Casual" player is capable of. We can do just as much as hardcore players it may take us some time because they hold the advantage with better gear and more time to practice but if we work as a team we can accomplish whatever we set out minds to.

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That's an excellent attitude.^^

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Originally Posted by Madruk

The only thing that stopped casual Timmy from getting Garuda weapons was because casual Timmy sucked at the game. What's the point of even having a challenging fight if you want it just handed to you? That's what keeps you playing, the carrot on the stick. Get good enough at the game/put in the time and you get rewarded.

Don't get me wrong, I've complained numerous times about the heavy casino factor this game has, but really that's a poor example of why people don't do it.

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I agree with that one.

This thread is about dice-rolling and how stupid that is, but Garuda isnt a good example since its not that much about luck (just serverlag still sucks now and then which should be fixed with 2.0) and for the first time we have some progress there.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Seals drop rate is like 80% now from 60k chest, went 3/5 so far on seals drop.

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Congrats. :)

My JP friend just went 0/12 on Seals. Every run over 66,000 Points.

They did see 2 Seal drops to someone else in their pickup group and saw, I think 4+ Barbuts and 1 Hand drop amongst other Militia Items.

But again, seeing 1 or 2 Seals drop and it randomly gets distributed to 1 member. It's still not great for those with bad luck.

I'm currently 0/5 on Seals from the time I got my last one. All over 60,000 Runs.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

My JP friend just went 0/12 on Seals. Every run over 66,000 Points.

They did see 2 Seal drops to someone else in their pickup group.

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People need to stop looking at a "No drop" if it didn't drop for you. It's a selfish attitude, but SE perpetuates it by not letting people pass the damn seals.

I'll say the same thing I did with primal loot drops, the drop rate isn't bad but the loot system is terrible. Let us pass the seals when they drop so we can focus on one person at a time or not waste extra seals.

I'm also rather curious how long it will be until so many double meld weapons flood the market that the "RNG melding crap" turns into a mere gil investment.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

Mog Trials...

They were absurd. Killing 500 apkallu (you know, the ones that become exponentially more powerful every time one is killed in the zone and go grab their friends to massacre you? the one they eventually changed after i completed it because it was too hard?) for my 'occasionally attack 2-3x' axe was mind-numbing but it was infinitely more rewarding because I could measure my progress. My goal had a very predictable concrete end to it.

I much prefer that to this rng crap.

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This example is great too, trials did mostly suck. But you always saw forward motion if it took a week/month/year if you put in the time your saw the results. I wouldn't get more than you in less time and you wouldn't get more than me. The time/progress was always equal.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Totally agree, somewhere along the line SE forgot about the casual players, who for whatever reason can't play 24/7 like others.

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I think they just want to maintain a player base of diehards no more than 20k people sticking around. Running off new players and having fans stay to see the next patch. Just as long as the servers don't get full, that would be terrible for business.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

The only thing that stopped casual Timmy from getting Garuda weapons was because casual Timmy sucked at the game. What's the point of even having a challenging fight if you want it just handed to you? That's what keeps you playing, the carrot on the stick. Get good enough at the game/put in the time and you get rewarded.

Don't get me wrong, I've complained numerous times about the heavy casino factor this game has, but really that's a poor example of why people don't do it.

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It's not a poor example. This is excatly the reason why Inever attempted any of that contend that involves heavly RNG stuff. I never went to a casino cause of the same reason... I don't like random stuff... I don't have a problem whit a bit randomness like crafting where sometimes you just blow up the stuff. Crafting I get the feeling that skill and equip heavily influences the chances. But reading from people that they did stuff x times more often then others and got nothing out of it and others got all the stuff in the least possible tries, no thank you I prefere to do stuff where I don't feel screwed up cause of RNG.

This guy posted this:

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Originally Posted by Kagato

Seriously, folks. If a relic weapon is too hard for you to get as it is right now, you don't deserve to get one. Stick to your Primal weapons. They're there for people like you. I'm already halfway to my Relic Axe.

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He, obviously, knows what it takes to put forth a lot of effort... I mean look at that profile, beaming with the glorious achievements in the one job that a monkey could play while flinging poo at the keyboard.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't even understand the concept of attaining a Relic, let alone claiming to have progressed as far as he states, only days after the content's release. With that I have forgone all of his statements past that.

But, what if his statement is true?
Is this dedication and long-term?
Is this what I will get to expect from a Relic user?

This is what the RNG system will continue to create... I don't think Ifrit/Moogle wielders are talented or skillful players, just lucky players. They are sadly mistaken if they think that weapon has improved their game in the slightest, especially running around in that under-whelming JSE (AF). You were given that gear; you didn't spend time and gil melding and weighing options and learning what would make you excel at the job.

Contrary to the notion that the gear doesn't make you a better player, it does show that you are willing to work towards becoming one.

"I don't need to be skilled... I got Ifrit's Battlaxe." will turn into "I don't need to be skilled... I have a Relic" (what I think when I see JSE's all over the place sporting Ifrit/Moogle weapons and what I will think about Relic users with this system in place.)

Far too little steps require skill, far too much requires luck, and those who will profit from this system will gain from this while the unlucky will suffer.

I have 3 (almost 4) 50 classes/job and am avidly working on the rest... I have been working on achievements and quest-lines... I am preparing myself for the inevitable craft-a-palooza that is coming soon, by gathering, storing, and learning... I am working on building a solid character that can honestly say has experienced what this game has to offer.

I have (in a combined 100+ Ifrit and Moogle wins) 0 Primal weapons, and have gotten 2 Inferno Totems and 1 Kupo Nut.

There isn't a single viable excuse for this. Luck is not and never will be a measure of skill or dedication. I don't even bother with them anymore, because I have a lot of other areas to catch up in; not to mention I am a student and work a full-time job in the real world.

It's a garbage system, plain and simple. It has no means of measuring or rewarding skill... It has no way of establishing a measurement of progress... And it only rewards luck, consistently.

I go to AV and CC for JSE gear and that is it... After that it will be for quest completion and the achievements for beating the NMs. It will never be to play a shitty RNG for DL gear or Relics... The content will be dead to me, aside from filling in for LS mates.

If I were guaranteed measurable progression, I would happily grind-out the requirements. There are better ways of implementing content like this. I can think of plenty of ways.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Who said you needed 3 balled gear to beat Garuda? You are trying too hard.

I play rather casually putting time in when I can and I've had no issues beating Ifrit or Moogle, I haven't had time to fight Garuda but I'm sure with enough practice (Yeah it might take me a few days to get it down due to my time constraints) Me and my friends could bring her down.

Moogle was the same I got utterly curb stomped my first run and now I can log whenever I have time and me and my friends can down moogle pretty much whenever we want because while casual we are still good players.

You need to change your perspective on what a "Casual" player is capable of. We can do just as much as hardcore players it may take us some time because they hold the advantage with better gear and more time to practice but if we work as a team we can accomplish whatever we set out minds to.

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This is why RNG being the sole decider in so much needs to go away. It's because if we go in the couple hours we get and we knock out the content 2~3 times but we just get mushroom stamped by the RNG constantly I don't know about you. I get crazy frustrated that I basically log in and spend my time making 0 progress because I can't beat the RNG.

If I, and the rest of my group, play as well as the 80hr a weekers shouldn't we get an equal amount of rewards over an equal amount of runs/wins.

If I do 10 Garuda wins I get 1 weapon that took me a week. They do 10 in a day they are done with 7 weapons in a week, but at the end of it all my 10 got the same reward as their 10, it doesn't give any more or less reward for playing any less or more, it equalizes it all. Anyone that puts in the time and gets the wins WILL get equal rewards.

Why should someone that is logged in 20 hrs a day get more than me in 20 hours over 5 day just because the RNG is feeling bitchy?

I agree. Please ban RNG.

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

Long post with quotes about
#1 gil
http://i29.tinypic.com/33f43e9.gif
#2 farming
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwtwsy8mjo1qekkfi.gif
#3 time
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw65pps73a1qfie0q.gif
#4 rng
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1...7xkdo1_500.gif

OR
stop playing the game gimped
go get all 50's
apply for or make a good strong LS
Work toward getting what you want
I make tons of guides for you peeps that need the direction and assistance to get the things you want.
Guides

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/1048466_o.gifhttp://imgur.com/02qrz.jpg

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still my favorite post :)

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

still my favorite post :)

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Don't know what you've been reading, no one has said a word about, It's too hard, or too long, it's just not wanting to get dicked by randomness. But I suppose that you've the time and enjoy being denied because when you win you still can't be randoms?

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Don't know what you've been reading, no one has said a word about, It's too hard, or too long, it's just not wanting to get dicked by randomness. But I suppose that you've the time and enjoy being denied because when you win you still can't be randoms?

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Please read this with a smile.
I am not bothered with the drop rate of items and never have.
I used jagged eared jack as another example. 1.2% drop rate on the charm.
Just because a group doesn't like drop rates doesn't mean it needs to change for everyone.
It is the fairest way to give everyone the same chance to get the item.
If the gaming norm were to do trials like 11 then people would complain about it taking too long. With drop rates everyone has a chance to get things they work for.
Also, the game has been out for 1.5 years and this is the first rng rant I have heard of.

So, i am keeping it light and chill and not caring even more about a select group of peeps that make threads.

again, please smile.

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

Also, the game has been out for 1.5 years and this is the first rng rant I have heard of.

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This is the first....? Really? <_<

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

*clusterfuck of nonsense*

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still my favorite post :)

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Your biggest fan is... yourself.
What a surprise!!

I like the fact to have a little chance to make things faster by having luck on a loot instead of beeing forced to go the long road. Its the thrill that the next drop could be mine that is keeping me playing. Ofc a bad day without a drop is frustrating but maybe you'll get the next day 2 or 3 drops in a row and you wet your pants. ^^

Well maybe its just me lol

I'm a casual player. Like many folks, I have a full time, demanding job. I have loved ones, pets, and many other commitments that take precedence. Like many folks, in my down time, I love to game. I love MMOs. However, I do not have hours to play every day. When I do have a chance to sit down an play, I may have 20 minutes or I may have a few hours to burn. Some weeks, I may be able to put in 10-12 hours. Other weeks.... just 3 hours.

Unfortunately, this game - which I have grown to love - is unplayable in its current state. Because most, if not all of the endgame content has inane requirements, I am unable to progress.

Why is it that most of the end-game content requires full groups?
Why is it that most of the end-game content is locked by content that requires full groups?
Why is it that most end-game rewards are derived from content that requires full groups?
Why is it that most end-game rewards are highly dependent on random loot drops from content that requires full groups?

I am okay with missing out on some content and rewards due to my limited playing schedule. However, I am practically locked out of almost every bit of end-game content, quest and reward. This is highly frustrating. I cannot progress through the grand company quests because.... oops, I need to complete an instanced raid. I cannot progress through my job quests because.... oops, I need to complete an instanced raid.

By the time I log in, and get a full group together to do anything... my gaming time is up! Not only does my luck involve the random number generator but also whether or not I log in at the right time.

As it stands, the end-game is only suitable for players who have a lot of time on their hands. I am not asking for a handout. I am not asking for an easy button. I am just asking for the developers to be more mindful and potentially provide alternative methods that do not require a full group or a specific group setup.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

The only thing that stopped casual Timmy from getting Garuda weapons was because casual Timmy sucked at the game. What's the point of even having a challenging fight if you want it just handed to you? That's what keeps you playing, the carrot on the stick. Get good enough at the game/put in the time and you get rewarded.

Don't get me wrong, I've complained numerous times about the heavy casino factor this game has, but really that's a poor example of why people don't do it.

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I'm Casual and I'm damn good at my jobs. since when does being able to play 24/7 = skill? The answer is never.
Since when does gear replace skill? again never!

why haven't i speed ran cc/av blah blah blah? I have a life, a girlfriend, and a daughter.

I'm casual and this evening within 15 minutes of being online i had 8 people send me a /t from shells i'm not even in asking if i can help with something because i'm a damn good player.

you can have the best gear in the game and still suck at anything you do.

Gear DOES NOT equal Skill!

The majority of the player base does not read these forums and that goes without saying that Hamlets, AV and CC are above what the average player can even do. If you have no problem doing Hamlets, AV and CC your probably in the top 5% of players.

Successfully doing a lv2 hamlet is a huge challenge for the majority of the playerbase due to how much coordination it takes. Pickup groups do not usually use Vent or any other voip program like the majority of guilds would. Thus making content significantly harder.

If you don't believe me join any pick up group for a hamlet and you will see that the most points they can get is like around 13k+, if they can even win at all.

What this leads to casual players seeing I will never be able to do this I can't make any progress because 1 it takes 7 other people who have a set strategy really down. Relics in FFXI were much easier in a way and gave casual players a long term goal that was doable because there was many ways to go about doing it. Farming gil buying currency in bazzars, doing dynamis getting a share of currency that drops. Casual players were fine making slow progress and finishing very slowly but it kept them subscribed to the game.

However in 14 most casual players see doing Hamlets, AV, CC as too hard and just quit the game because they have no way to even make any progress on it.

so people that havent speedrun cc/av blah blah blah has no life?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

People need to stop looking at a "No drop" if it didn't drop for you. It's a selfish attitude, but SE perpetuates it by not letting people pass the damn seals.

I'll say the same thing I did with primal loot drops, the drop rate isn't bad but the loot system is terrible. Let us pass the seals when they drop so we can focus on one person at a time or not waste extra seals.

I'm also rather curious how long it will be until so many double meld weapons flood the market that the "RNG melding crap" turns into a mere gil investment.

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Hi Jynx,

I'm usually the first person to help my friends or their friends do whatever Quest / Task / Crafting Assistance they need. Please don't infer that I'm "selfish" for posting the results of what happened in Hamlet Defense per person.

Ultimately, we should definitely take note though, as you bring up: There are 2 "statistical views" that are getting intermingled by the posters here on the forums:

* Drops (for everyone) per Run
* Drops (for the individual) per Run

So while on something like Ifrit, I'm sure some of the people who have been unlucky and gotten no weapons were "0/xx", the *party* may have been "10/xx" etc.

Also, not everyone has time to grind Darklight, Hamlets, Primals 24/7 with their respective LS. Many players also do pick-up parties (or mixed parties with friends from various LSs).

So *for that person* (who's trying to get their own Relic, or trying to get their own Primal Weapon, etc.), it's not unexpected or "selfish" that they'd be discussing their own experience and posting their "drop rate / stats" for themselves.

So maybe someone was "0/10" on their Ifrit Weapon, while someone else in their party did get an Ifrit drop. So for *everyone*, sure, it might've been ~"9/80" so "9 things" dropped. But for that individual person (maybe in a pickup, maybe in an LS where people can keep what they get auto-looted), they really did get "0."

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Originally Posted by rwyan

*Snip*
MMO's require multiple players

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http://omgdroid.com/wp-content/uploa...-chan-meme.jpg
MMO's need to be played with other people?

Let's be blunt I don't play often either but I still somehow managed to do all these things that you are unable to accomplish. Could it be that you need to find people who play the same time you do? Start looking for a linkshell that is active when you get time to play.

If your like me your available hours vary often, get a few linkshells, get to know people, be part of the community. End-game is suitable for anyone who can set a hour or two aside. None of the content takes long to accomplish or even take long to get to, I'm not sure what you expect SE to do for you than they allready have.

Content never locks you out, content is never hard to get to, content never takes more than 30 minutes to complete, content is repeatable until your are sick. The only thing the MMO asks of you...is to play it like a MMO.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm Casual and I'm damn good at my jobs. since when does being able to play 24/7 = skill? The answer is never.
Since when does gear replace skill? again never!

why haven't i speed ran cc/av blah blah blah? I have a life, a girlfriend, and a daughter.

I'm casual and this evening within 15 minutes of being online i had 8 people send me a /t from shells i'm not even in asking if i can help with something because i'm a damn good player.

you can have the best gear in the game and still suck at anything you do.

Gear DOES NOT equal Skill!

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Wasn't that exactly my point? Casuals can accomplish the same things as anyone else if they're good at the game. It just takes longer. And therein lies what most people are crying about.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm Casual and I'm damn good at my jobs. since when does being able to play 24/7 = skill? The answer is never.
Since when does gear replace skill? again never!

why haven't i speed ran cc/av blah blah blah? I have a life, a girlfriend, and a daughter.

I'm casual and this evening within 15 minutes of being online i had 8 people send me a /t from shells i'm not even in asking if i can help with something because i'm a damn good player.

you can have the best gear in the game and still suck at anything you do.

Gear DOES NOT equal Skill!

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You're so good at the video game.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Wasn't that exactly my point? Casuals can accomplish the same things as anyone else if they're good at the game. It just takes longer. And therein lies what most people are crying about.

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The Problem is to have forced 8 players groups - in 2.0 forced 24 player groups for Contet! You can not accomplish anything because you have to relay on the others in your group. Furthermore most of the Content requires specific Job setup (Tank+Healer+DD - try without Healer and we will see your progress). There is nothing wrong with "taking longer for Causals" (paradox, because Causals mostly have less time to game) but in Fact you will fail for sure because mostly one or more just are not as skilled as you are!

Please tell me: How should a skilled player progress in any Content without having the backup of a static group? Not only the RNG matters, also you need Luck in searching for players! Just try it on your own with 24h testing to join any random group who is searching for some help...

I am obliged to also post that OP put a lot of thought and effort into the post. and though i still think that the low drop rate is kinda almost ok, i am adamant that if totems were 100% drop, there is no problem with getting all weapons GUARANTEED with 70 wins. I know some who posted here think that you should just get the weapon you want, or all of the weapons on a single win, but that is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

Please read this with a smile.
I am not bothered with the drop rate of items and never have.
I used jagged eared jack as another example. 1.2% drop rate on the charm.
Just because a group doesn't like drop rates doesn't mean it needs to change for everyone.
It is the fairest way to give everyone the same chance to get the item.
If the gaming norm were to do trials like 11 then people would complain about it taking too long. With drop rates everyone has a chance to get things they work for.
Also, the game has been out for 1.5 years and this is the first rng rant I have heard of.

So, i am keeping it light and chill and not caring even more about a select group of peeps that make threads.

again, please smile.

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It's far from the first time this has come up.
I thought one of the things we all agreed on is that repeating things from XI was a mistake.
You really don't mind when a person who's never done something gets the best drop on thier first win when you've been doing it for 2 weeks and in 20 wins have yet to get anything? Honestly that's not frustrating?

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

The Problem is to have forced 8 players groups - in 2.0 forced 24 player groups for Contet! You can not accomplish anything because you have to relay on the others in your group. Furthermore most of the Content requires specific Job setup (Tank+Healer+DD - try without Healer and we will see your progress). There is nothing wrong with "taking longer for Causals" (paradox, because Causals mostly have less time to game) but in Fact you will fail for sure because mostly one or more just are not as skilled as you are!

Please tell me: How should a skilled player progress in any Content without having the backup of a static group? Not only the RNG matters, also you need Luck in searching for players! Just try it on your own with 24h testing to join any random group who is searching for some help...

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You realize this is a MMO not a single player game right? What's the point of even having it online if you don't play with others? Pretend other people are enhanced AI npcs?

Casuals can plan ahead just like any other person. Set up schedules with like minded players and have fun. Not everything can revolve around the one player. It's basically a social test. When I played casual back in the day I made friends lists with people I liked/knew could get things done, talked to them about setting up days to login, and get whatever content we wanted done. Content finder will help those that have trouble socializing in a social game, but even then if you don't want to deal with the frustration of playing with bad players, you're going to have to actually get to know people at some point.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Honestly that's not frustrating?

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I imagine it would also be frustrating looking at the time/win investment of content and knowing that you don't have that kind of time to invest in a single chunk of content could be frustrating as well.

Some people like being able to roll the dice with the little time they have and get the same chance as everyone else to get rewarded.

Both systems have serious issues, drop rate/win requirements can't be too slack or the bulk of your dedicated subscribers will not last long. Too low/long and your casual players are up in arms because they don't have the time to invest in the game that others do.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

You realize this is a MMO not a single player game right? What's the point of even having it online if you don't play with others? Pretend other people are enhanced AI npcs?

Casuals can plan ahead just like any other person. Set up schedules with like minded players and have fun. Not everything can revolve around the one player. It's basically a social test. When I played casual back in the day I made friends lists with people I liked/knew could get things done, talked to them about setting up days to login, and get whatever content we wanted done. Content finder will help those that have trouble socializing in a social game, but even then if you don't want to deal with the frustration of playing with bad players, you're going to have to actually get to know people at some point.

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Why the hell you think i am talking from myself?
Just cant you see from the eyes of others or are you ignoring all shouts because you have your group found? Each day i hear other players cry who can not accomplish anything and sorry but i can not help everyone... Do you really think it helps the game to leave them by and looking away as nothing happens? Beside I was replying because you said with skill you can accomplish everything you like to. that is not true and you know it.

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Originally Posted by Huginn

I am obliged to also post that OP put a lot of thought and effort into the post. and though i still think that the low drop rate is kinda almost ok, i am adamant that if totems were 100% drop, there is no problem with getting all weapons GUARANTEED with 70 wins. I know some who posted here think that you should just get the weapon you want, or all of the weapons on a single win, but that is ridiculous.

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I think anyone who said all weapons on a single win or even 1 weapon/win guarantee was taking part in general jackassery.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

http://omgdroid.com/wp-content/uploa...-chan-meme.jpg
*Snip*

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Jynx, I play MMOs for the very reason that other players are out and about. However, almost all the content SE has put out over the past few months exclusively requires a full group. This isn't an issue, but making this content required to progress is extremely hindering (and it is for Company, AF, and now Relic Weapon progression).

No, the raids themselves do not take long. No, the dungeon runs themselves do not take long. I have formed groups. I have joined various linkshells. However, the amount of time and effort needed to form a *full* group just to engage the content is cumbersome. With 2.0, we are supposed to get a dungeon finder which will definitely help.

Most nights I can play - I may be able to do some leves or join a small group for a seals run. I may be able to farm gil so that I can eventually afford even better gear. I'm perfectly happy with this status quo. If I'm lucky, I may be able to put together a group to do a raid or a dungeon run. However, when I can't even continue progress in my company because I'm having a hard time getting a full group together to do a dungeon run is very frustrating.

For example, because of how progression is designed through the company system - it can be very difficult to progress for a player with extremely limited time. It took me almost a month before I was able to put together a group just to tackle Dzemael just so I could continue working my way up through my company. That is very frustrating. I didn't even have an option of farming seals (which are fun to farm via solo leves and dungeon runs which require only 4 players). I was just *stuck*.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I imagine it would also be frustrating looking at the time/win investment of content and knowing that you don't have that kind of time to invest in a single chunk of content could be frustrating as well.

Some people like being able to roll the dice with the little time they have and get the same chance as everyone else to get rewarded.

Both systems have serious issues, drop rate/win requirements can't be too slack or the bulk of your dedicated subscribers will not last long. Too low/long and your casual players are up in arms because they don't have the time to invest in the game that others do.

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That's where you bring in things like the primals totems, @100% 1 totem/person/win, and 10~20 totems/weapon but still have the shit drop rate weapon possibility. You cover both halves, I can do Garuda 70~140 times and RNG will do nothing more than reduce the count if I'm lucky and get a couple weapons, as opposed to just RNG drops which is why there's ppl w/ 6 weapons and 600 wins.

I suspect that for the sake of relic more ppl are willing to invest, say 200 hrs ttl "play" time to it if they get a guarantee that if they put in that time they WILL get "it". Vs. If you put in 200 hrs maybe, maybe not, maybe another 200 hrs and then maybe.

Dyna w/o buying much of any currency was ~100 runs to get 10k worked out to around 300 hrs play time. Just as a comparison. That's ~100 coins/run avg. It was fair, slowed down the hardcores but made it perfectly equal for all that went, you do good farming runs and you will get it in and equal amount of play time.

Is it daunting, fuck yeah, but it's doable and not gonna "maybe" beat you into submission on bad luck chuck.
Again I'm not saying bring Dyna back, just using it as a comparison of some content that while not for everyone didn't bar anyone and didn't make RNG maybe keep you down.

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Originally Posted by rwyan

It took me almost a month before I was able to put together a group just to tackle Dzemael just so I could continue working my way up through my company.

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You don't have many friends in your many linkshells if it took you a month to get together a group for Darkhold...

How "extreme" is your limited ammount of time anyways? Because by the sounds of it, it's far too little time for you to be investing into a MMO. I understand people have lives, work, familly, because I also have all of those things but if you can't put forward the effort to set aside some (1-2 hours) when you want to play then I have no remorse for your "limited time" because you obviously have better things to do than play a MMO with all that other time.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I suspect that for the sake of relic more ppl are willing to invest, say 200 hrs ttl "play" time to it if they get a guarantee that if they put in that time they WILL get "it". Vs. If you put in 200 hrs maybe, maybe not, maybe another 200 hrs and then maybe.

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You and I both know that Relic weapons were a insurmountable wall for only a handfull of players. you didn't just "Do dynamis" you had to spend alot of money just to do one run.

We also both know that these relic weapons are nowhere near a "200 hour maybe I get it" investment. You are using Dynamis as a very lopsided comparison, if anything you should be using Assault as a example. Quick repeatable content that awarded you point towards your goals (Weapons armour yadayada) The crazy thing is though.

Not everything in XI (Or any MMO) is designed the same, we have tons of other ways to get gear that isn't pre-determined by the RNG gods, GC equipment for one is able to be "Slow and steady" worked towards and is arguably some of the best gear in the game.

Double tripple balled gear may beat it, but that's because of the larger investment in Time/Money/Chance, some people like to gamble for a better mouse trap, some people would rather not. I think your issue is that the item you want is stuck in a system you don't like.

You are blowing the RNG WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion making it seem like everything you do is below a 5% sucsess rate. You ignore that the drop rates are nowhere near as bad, 20% isn't a "Crazy gonna always lose" situation, Materials can be farmed, (We have no information on the CC/AV chests so I can't coment) But I don't imagine those chests drop darkmatter all the time.

So like I've said I'm not againt the slow-steady way but people are over-reacting to this content. It's a terrible knee-jerk reaction, people don't even have all the information and are acting like winning the lottery has better odds than getting one of these weapons.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Please let's not bring WoW up in this.

As much as I know people enjoyed it I like my gear to last me more than a month before it gets outdated.

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That's what transmogrification is for...

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Honestly, this page garnered about 14 pages from last night and the sad part is those defending it have yet to offer a viable reason other than, "not everyone can have these." Anything in any game should be obtainable to everyone in the player-base. If successful real life person #1 has only one hour to play. He should be able to work toward progress in getting these weapons as awfully slow as it may be. As the game currently stands, it is perfectly feasible for someone to invest 4 hours of their time and come out with nothing.

I'm not sure about you guys but I like my time investment in anything I do to have a pay-off. FFXIV does not pay off your time investment with measurable progress. This is not clever game design, it's a time sink that offers no real challenge. For someone like myself who cannot play 24/7 due to actually having a life, the thought of logging on, putting in 4 hours and getting no measurable progress is ridiculous.

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Indeed. I'm usually so tired when I get home from work that I have maybe 2 or three hours to dedicate to the game before I pass out. That's assuming I don't have something else to take care of.

The real issue is the pacing of content and how much of it we have available. The players have gotten RNG'd out between drop rates on Ifrit/Garuda/Moogle, drop rates on Darklight, drop rates from Hamlet defense and RNG from Materia melding. RNG in itself is not a bad thing, but too much of one thing and all that.

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Finally I would postulate, that the VERY FEW defending it are those who have pretty much been around since day 1, have capped crafting classes and have boatloads of gil. These idiots think they should be rewarded for sticking with the game through the god-awful first year and a half. These are the people those of us with a brain are arguing with. It's like a modified Stockholm Syndrome......SE shouldn't market towards those clowns. They would stay with them through anything.

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This is true. There are people who will buy the bag of dog poo with the Final Fantasy logo on it just because of the name.

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Originally Posted by DIJIDL

This guy posted this:



He, obviously, knows what it takes to put forth a lot of effort... I mean look at that profile, beaming with the glorious achievements in the one job that a monkey could play while flinging poo at the keyboard.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't even understand the concept of attaining a Relic, let alone claiming to have progressed as far as he states, only days after the content's release. With that I have forgone all of his statements past that.

But, what if his statement is true?
Is this dedication and long-term?
Is this what I will get to expect from a Relic user?

This is what the RNG system will continue to create... I don't think Ifrit/Moogle wielders are talented or skillful players, just lucky players. They are sadly mistaken if they think that weapon has improved their game in the slightest, especially running around in that under-whelming JSE (AF). You were given that gear; you didn't spend time and gil melding and weighing options and learning what would make you excel at the job.

Contrary to the notion that the gear doesn't make you a better player, it does show that you are willing to work towards becoming one.

"I don't need to be skilled... I got Ifrit's Battlaxe." will turn into "I don't need to be skilled... I have a Relic" (what I think when I see JSE's all over the place sporting Ifrit/Moogle weapons and what I will think about Relic users with this system in place.)

Far too little steps require skill, far too much requires luck, and those who will profit from this system will gain from this while the unlucky will suffer.

I have 3 (almost 4) 50 classes/job and am avidly working on the rest... I have been working on achievements and quest-lines... I am preparing myself for the inevitable craft-a-palooza that is coming soon, by gathering, storing, and learning... I am working on building a solid character that can honestly say has experienced what this game has to offer.

I have (in a combined 100+ Ifrit and Moogle wins) 0 Primal weapons, and have gotten 2 Inferno Totems and 1 Kupo Nut.

There isn't a single viable excuse for this. Luck is not and never will be a measure of skill or dedication. I don't even bother with them anymore, because I have a lot of other areas to catch up in; not to mention I am a student and work a full-time job in the real world.

It's a garbage system, plain and simple. It has no means of measuring or rewarding skill... It has no way of establishing a measurement of progress... And it only rewards luck, consistently.

I go to AV and CC for JSE gear and that is it... After that it will be for quest completion and the achievements for beating the NMs. It will never be to play a shitty RNG for DL gear or Relics... The content will be dead to me, aside from filling in for LS mates.

If I were guaranteed measurable progression, I would happily grind-out the requirements. There are better ways of implementing content like this. I can think of plenty of ways.

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Love this responce, cudos.

For any person to attemp to infer that folks who dislike RNG means they want it easy, yet days after release is "half" done with the currently released reqs tells me that it is not Hard, difficult or somethign to work twoards. It is in random luck. Luck is good for some, bad for others. But in no way is full of consistant effort.

But also important is besides what we the forum going percentile like and dislike, is a good business model for systems that are infact, popular. And the trend is not towards RNG of low percentages. And if there is RNG of a lower percentage, it is backed up by a progression of some sort that either gets you close, or there over time of effort.

Most people won't leave a game they like unless they find one they like better. And there is alot of competition in the MMO world right now. If the intetion of SE is to both retain the current base, and bring in "Alot" of new players to form a community (referenced as one of the 3 pillars Yoshi-p is working from)

A community will not survive if people hit 50, get frustraited by RNG, and see no progress over time, and then jump ship to another MMO (of which a big one is ramping up pre-2.0. And the systems in that Game are highly co-operative, and always to some measure, rewarding. Which propels you towards a goal as you put work and time in. This type of system has many positive aspects.

Easy has nothing to do with it. Luck is not hard or easy, its just luck. So i'll pose a question.

If DOH , say carpenter, no matter level, gear or skill or + of ingredient, still had a Very low % chance of actually creating an item, and all other times it made nothing. Would that be "harder"?

If DOL was was a blank slate, you have no idea where any item appeared on the gauge. Colbolt could be from -5 to +5. And anywhere in circle. ANd you only had a very low % chance to get any item from it, and got nothing every other time. Would that be harder?

And would you enjoy that "difficulty?" Some may say yes and thats fine. But in both of those cases, it is shaded far more to the High % chances then the Low. And can be overcome with knowlage, skill and hard work.

What i belive is that if both of those did work in the way my question was posed. It would do nothing for new or concurant subcription numbers. RNG has a place in all games. But RNG in most things in one game i belive is bad design. And my example being that in most sucsessful MMOs currently running, any high end RNG such as what we're discussing in this thread, is atleast backed up by progression mechanics.

Interview by one of our LS member:-

http://www.1up.com/features/ffxiv-in...nix-fallen-mmo

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1UP: A couple things in the game right now that seem to be, as Final Fantasy XI players might say, are "haunted by the ghost of Tanaka." For example, the Relic weapon quests that were just added yesterday seem to rely very heavily on luck. And this kind of thing is really discouraging to a lot of players. An element of luck is okay, but effort is more important. And there's always the thought that, yeah, if I do this enough times, I might get lucky and get it, but there's always the fear that they won't. Especially after the Ifrit and other boss battles. I know people say that they fought 75 times and they haven't gotten a weapon yet, and they're just really frustrated, and they're upset to see that same thing happening in other systems. So are there any plans to adjust the luck/effort balance of high-level content in the future?

NY: We can tell you that at version 2.0, a lot of things are going to be changing in this aspect. For example, like a token type of system, where if you do it enough times, you're going to get rewarded for doing it that many times. We also have something else prepared as well that's going to address this... we can't talk about it now, but we have many things in place that will address that issue.

And the other thing being that, the real need for the Need, Greed, and Pass type of system when things get dropped, things that are pretty much a global standard that we haven't achieved yet on Final Fantasy XIV. We understand that we have those problems, but with the current system, we can't address them. But we will be able to address them in 2.0 with the new system and the new engines. And so you can go back and tell the community that, come 2.0, we will actually have that global standard and you won't have to worry as much about these types of things. But again, that doesn't mean we're going to forget about our current version players. We're going to listen to the voices of the players, look at the forums, adjust drop rates to reduce as much stress as possible for the players so they can experience this grand finale, the Seventh Umbral Era story, that ushers in 2.0.

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