Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Way I see it if the group passes the vote the overall the voting majority felt as if the person in question was a problem so everyone is better off, [...]

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Unfortunately, it is not how it works. If some player is so bad that everyone agrees, why did no one of the other party members instigated it? See this situation: You have a group of 8 and one person is visibly worse, but not outright the reason the dungeon is becoming a desaster. I would not kick this person. Now, since we all have different thresholds and characteristical attitudes as invidiual players, one person gets annoyed for, let's say, a healer only healing. The window pops up, no word has been said. What will happen now?

In my experience, when the window pops up, I am often surprised by it. Check the name, look in the party member list who that is. Ah, the Dancer. What did he do? Mh, I saw him doing this stuff. Was it so bad? I don't think so. (>NO).
Other players: "Get that window out of my face >YES" or "If someone summons a votekick, there must be something wrong. I have no proof, but whatever >YES" or even "Phew, it is not me. I am not good either, but who cares? >YES".

One we had an AFK stopping to move without disconnecting in Copperbell Hard and I forgot I was the team leader and asked if we wanted to wait until going for a replacement and we all agreed. We waited for 7 minutes - all strangers! - and then removed her. So there is the will to catch up failures and mistakes, even it makes the run slower (here we lost 7 minutes if she would have come back!), but I think it has to be conveyed properly. If a tank causes mad beef versus a supposedly bad player, you have the mindgame coming into play: "He will leave. Replacing a tank takes ages. So we rather accept to kick without evidence". Or what if the slacker is a part of a group that will remove you after you summoned the votekick, as sort of revenge?

The whole "kickvote" story is so multilayered and in very rare cases based on objectivity, as sad that is.

Sincerely,
https://imgur.com/HTju1aB.png

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Originally Posted by Awha

Out of curiosity, who are we to say if an standard is unrealistic, everyone has different standards. I do think it is safe to assume that most share the same end goal when running content which is to clear it, but is a goal itself a standard, or should it even be considered one? Do not get me wrong we can not agree with the view and when that happens people should leave or try to remove the element they do not agree with.

Also sorry English is not my native tongue

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Unfortunately the only standard that you can ever expect from pugs is that they were competent enough to clear the content before the dungeon you're in, which is quite an easy standard considering that healers only need to heal to clear content, tanks only need to hold aggro and don't even need a good rotation to do so, and dps only need to deal damage, doesn't matter how much, just damage, and obviously on top of that you need to be able to do mechanics or find a party good enough to carry you, neither of which is too hard.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Its definitely exaggerated. Also, its people having unrealistic standards for PUG groups. A lot of the examples of "bad" players I'm seeing bandied about are just players who, either intentionally or unintentionally, are not working at optimal efficiency.

But a healer who doesn't use DPS skills every possible chance during healing downtime, but the group all lives and the dungeon gets cleared, is not a bad player and they're not wasting your time. They aren't treating the dungeon like a savage run, yeah. But they kept you alive, the bosses died. It was fine.

The way some people are talking here, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground between "bad" and "optimal", but in reality there very much is one. If you *really* can't bear not telling them how you think they can improve, be kind about it and don't assume you know what they do or do not understand without asking them first. But overall, some people just need to chill.

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Speaking about unrealistic approach to pugs.
You would be pretty surprised how many many many many many players are simply not aoeing in dungeons or how many many many healers are using only GCD heals to heal your tank, going oom quickly and just standing there waiting for regen.
A ton of guys get into the game, buy jump potions and just use like 6 skills at best, it was a plague when the expansion started to the point where i refused to do duties.
Because of that i dont run parser anymore, because seeing dps doing less dps than my tank in dungeons just makes me sick.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

The whole "kickvote" story is so multilayered and in very rare cases based on objectivity, as sad that is.

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Thing is if the vote outcome can arguably be viewed as objectivity a fact of the majority's desire. Everything else is either an assumption or nor necessary. No matter the reason for the vote the outcome is fact in my opinion, but that does not inherently mean it was personal or an attack which is how I think a lot of people view being removed. Maybe it is because I am a foreigner but if people do not want to be around me I do not assume off the bat it is because they personally hate me or something just that it was their personal preference to not be around me. I can respect that, and by no means would I want to be part of a group to grit and bare my presence since that leads to resentment and once resentment comes into play then actions may become personal.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Unfortunately the only standard that you can ever expect from pugs is that they were competent enough to clear the content before the dungeon you're in, which is quite an easy standard considering that healers only need to heal to clear content, tanks only need to hold aggro and don't even need a good rotation to do so, and dps only need to deal damage, doesn't matter how much, just damage, and obviously on top of that you need to be able to do mechanics or find a party good enough to carry you, neither of which is too hard.

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I know I am an odd ball but I do not think it is our place to say what one reasonably should expect from a player, that is why I am support using the vote feature more instead of holding everything in out of being kind or showing tolerance.

I have only been removed oncr from a dungeon and that was because I was skipping mobs when possible, and instead of adapting to my groups desires I tried to force them into my own. At that point I learned i was better off just leaving instead of trying to change the play style of the group.

Overall I guess I find it strange that many have the bar set to mere completion of content and while I find it odd if I ran into a group that was okay with people doing the bare minimum I would either kindly ask them to remove me so I may requeue or leave. Since for me personally completion is my goal but not my standard. Hope that makes sense, I do see where you are coming from and I probably just being ridged in my view.

I don't know, I still feel like kicking someone for being bad is still a pretty bad reason, why do you think it's not listed in the kick reasons? That's coming from a new player.

People are free to use party finder and make their own group, they're also free to go with their friends. Why would you ruin 1 person experience because you're lazy / without friends? Listen, I'm not saying that this 1 person that's not performing how you want is "protected" or anything. I'm just saying, what if it's this person first time in the dungeon, what if this person just doesn't know how their character works, is it really that hard to at least try and say "hey healer, you know you're spamming heal on yourself" for example. If they react badly, if they don't listen then yeah I get it and it's understandable.

Put yourself in their place, they're maybe there for a MSQ quest, maybe sidequest and they just want to clear. No one told them they had to be prepared and maybe they've been waiting for 30m and you'll just kick them cause they're not good enough for your taste without even trying, you know you can even say "this dungeon is really hard you should study it first (read about it)" and not look like an asshole.

You on the other hand you knew exactly what you were signing up for. A chance for new / bad people because you don't have anyone else to play with.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Looking at it from the wrong angle. How much time will be wasted by the noob in the next several hundred runs they join because everyone refuses to do anything about it?

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You are missing the point, you are trying to make it look like you are doing a noble thing by kicking someone from a casual dungeon run because they don’t meet your standards in order to make a run go a couple minutes faster or leaving and giving oneself a 30 minute penalty without saying anything because they think it will magically make someone play better in the long term.

Let’s be honest here shall we? You don’t care if that player improves or not you just want to have quick, fast runs, you are trying to make yourself look noble in a vain attempt to disguise your own selfishness you would rather all players that don’t meet your standards quit if they don’t improve in a timeframe that is acceptable to you.

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Originally Posted by Annabellechu

I don't know, I still feel like kicking someone for being bad is still a pretty bad reason, why do you think it's not listed in the kick reasons? That's coming from a new player.

People are free to use party finder and make their own group, they're also free to go with their friends. Why would you ruin 1 person experience because you're lazy / without friends? Listen, I'm not saying that this 1 person that's not performing how you want is "protected" or anything. I'm just saying, what if it's this person first time in the dungeon, what if this person just doesn't know how their character works, is it really that hard to at least try and say "hey healer, you know you're spamming heal on yourself" for example. If they react badly, if they don't listen then yeah I get it and it's understandable.

Put yourself in their place, they're maybe there for a MSQ quest, maybe sidequest and they just want to clear. No one told them they had to be prepared and maybe they've been waiting for 30m and you'll just kick them cause they're not good enough for your taste without even trying, you know you can even say "this dungeon is really hard you should study it first (read about it)" and not look like an asshole.

You on the other hand you knew exactly what you were signing up for. A chance for new / bad people because you don't have anyone else to play with.

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While still debated in this game difference of play style appears to be a valid reason for removal even if it is not listed, and being as how often I have been part of groups that remove players a I tend to think SE is okay with it.

If I may ask why is using the party finder playing with friends only a one way street? This is why I am a favor of people using the vote kick feature more, it is a binary metric, did the vote pass or fail. Nothing else matters since that outcome of the vote is not based on assumptions or feelings. I guess what I am saying is I do not understand why people make it personal, because I tend to think most people who use the vote kick feature are not doing it out of malice they simply do not want to play with the person, and if it passes no matter the reasons as to why the vote passed it stands to reason if it passed the voting majority also did not want to play the person.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

You are missing the point, you are trying to make it look like you are doing a noble thing by kicking someone from a casual dungeon run because they don’t meet your standards in order to make a run go a couple minutes faster or leaving and giving oneself a 30 minute penalty without saying anything because they think it will magically make someone play better in the long term.

Let’s be honest here shall we? You don’t care if that player improves or not you just want to have quick, fast runs, you are trying to make yourself look noble in a vain attempt to disguise your own selfishness you would rather all players that don’t meet your standards quit if they don’t improve in a timeframe that is acceptable to you.

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Is that a bad thing though if someone wants quick and easy runs?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Is that a bad thing though if someone wants quick and easy runs?

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It’s not a bad thing to want that, it becomes bad when someone has to remove someone newer or less skilled than they are to get that.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

It’s not a bad thing to want that, it becomes bad when someone has to remove someone newer or less skilled than they are to get that.

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Why is bad if the vote is successful? Should the minority in the group get special treatment because they are new or less skilled? Should we take what the say a face value? Are they really new or are they using it that a means to cover up their mistakes? Being removed from the group is not bad, just means the group was not meant for that person. Most reasons I have seen for why it is bad are based off a view that because someone is new or less skilled they should be get special treatment and somehow their experience has more value over the group as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Why is bad if the vote is successful? Should the minority in the group get special treatment because they are new or less skilled? Should we take what the say a face value? Are they really new or are they using it that a means to cover up their mistakes? Being removed from the group is not bad, just means the group was not meant for that person. Most reasons I have seen for why it is bad are based off a view that because someone is new or less skilled they should be get special treatment and somehow their experience has more value over the group as a whole.

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Because unless someone is actually preventing the completion of the run and refusing to take advice that would allow them to compete it I don’t think they should be removed from content, and even if it takes them a few tries to learn the mechs of a boss battle that’s totally fine too as long as they are communicating and trying.

For example, I’m trying to get all jobs to 80 for my amaro mount, I’ve been in a lot, and I mean a lot of parties where the tank could pull large but they don’t, would I love to have big pulls and be done a bit faster? Sure, but the thought to remove them has never crossed my mind, I’m not more important or more significant than they are so I just deal with it and take a few minutes longer to complete the duty.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Because unless someone is actually preventing the completion of the run and refusing to take advice that would allow them to compete it I don’t think they should be removed from content, and even if it takes them a few tries to learn the mechs of a boss battle that’s totally fine too as long as they are communicating and trying.

For example, I’m trying to get all jobs to 80 for my amaro mount, I’ve been in a lot, and I mean a lot of parties where the tank could pull large but they don’t, would I love to have big pulls and be done a bit faster? Sure, but the thought to remove them has never crossed my mind, I’m not more important or more significant than they are so I just deal with it and take a few minutes longer to complete the duty.

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Oh I agree that no one person on a 1:1 is more important the another, what I am saying is vote kicks are not based around one person it requires the a majority of those able to vote to pass. So this is where my question lays if the vote passes to remove another player for being new or less skilled how is that bad? At that point it could be seen as a fact that the vote passed which means majority of the group did not want to play with said person for whatever reason.

Overall maybe I am mixing up what people are trying to say. I have no issue with people not approving of action, more so confused as to why they refer to the action as bad. I tend to differentiate the two, just because I do not like something does not mean I think it is bad. Though I could very well using them in the wrong context now that go back and read the responses over again.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Oh I agree that no one person on a 1:1 is more important the another, what I am saying is vote kicks are not based around one person it requires the a majority of those able to vote to pass. So this is where my question lays if the vote passes to remove another player for being new or less skilled how is that bad? At that point it could be seen as a fact that the vote passed which means majority of the group did not want to play with said person for whatever reason.

Overall maybe I am mixing up what people are trying to say. I have no issue with people not approving of action, more so confused as to why they refer to the action as bad. I tend to differentiate the two, just because I do not like something does not mean I think it is bad. Though I could very well using them in the wrong context now that go back and read the responses over again.

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I’ve been on the receiving end of being vote kicked without explanation a few times especially when I was a newer player, it led me towards consider quitting the game because I didn’t know what I was doing wrong and that experience sucked and I wouldn’t want to put someone else through it because I’ve been there myself.

But I’ve improved over time, made corrections where I’ve needed to taken into account the advice of friends(some of whom raid savage content, not mocking raids like someone earlier accused me of) and friendly people and just in general the practice and experience that comes with playing the game over time. Thus I strive to be the kind of player that will actually help others and not make them feel like dirt because their performance might not be totally up to par. Im not perfect by any means there are jobs I’ve lvl’d that I don’t feel totally comfortable on. I just don’t want to be a jerk by making less skilled people feel like trash and kicking then to speed up runs by a few minutes.

It is wrong because you're possibly ruining the experience of someone intentionally because they're ruining your experience possibly unintentionally. It's wrong because that person doesn't actually have a learning chance. It's upsetting for a person that actually want to learn to be kicked and not know why they were kicked. As I said in a previous post I almost got kicked from msq roulette (when for me it was just my regular story) because I didn't want to get killed by a boss that I aggroed because of regen (I'm a healer). Someone told me to stop running and I did and they still initiated a vote kick after I explained myself. Did he fix the situation by talking to me? Definitely. All he had to say was "stop running", is it worth ruining my experience because you're too lazy to write 2 words? What's the worst that can happen, losing 2 minutes of your time and still kicking the person anyway? Is it really important to ruin the other person experience for these 2 minutes? That's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I’ve been on the receiving end of being vote kicked without explanation a few times especially when I was a newer player, it led me towards consider quitting the game because I didn’t know what I was doing wrong and that experience sucked and I wouldn’t want to put someone else through it because I’ve been there myself.

But I’ve improved over time, made corrections where I’ve needed to taken into account the advice of friends(some of whom raid savage content, not mocking raids like someone earlier accused me of) and friendly people and just in general the practice and experience that comes with playing the game over time. Thus I strive to be the kind of player that will actually help others and not make them feel like dirt because their performance might not be totally up to par. Im not perfect by any means there are jobs I’ve lvl’d that I don’t feel totally comfortable on. I just don’t want to be a jerk by making less skilled people feel like trash and kicking then to speed up runs by a few minutes.

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That makes sense, and I could see how your experience would lead to your outlook, but do not take this the wrong way does that really matter? Everyone has their own outlook that is shaped by their own personal experience and that itself does not inherently give one more validation over another. As an example, I mentioned this in a another thread but in WoW I went through entire tiers thinking I was a decent player until someone told me to kill myself due to how I was playing, their comment stung and after I vented with friends I grew to appreciate their comment because if it were not for them I may have never had any reason to look and improve my game play, and by improving my game play I also found a new level of appreciation for leveling and in time took part in server first kills.

This is my issue when people say it is bad to remove players because often they look at it from their own personal experience without considering the general outcome required to remove someone. Most of the group has to agree with the removal and that brings us back if the group agrees with the removal doesn't that make the removal valid and acceptable. I get that one may personally not approve of the action, but does the lack of personal approval mean that it is inherently bad or wrong? Sure certain exceptions are possible just generally speaking in this context, I think less issues would happen if people just did not take it personally and simply viewed being removed or having to leave the group less as a waste of time and more so as a means of not using the time you have playing with others who are not making the game fun.

You just need to understand, the problem is not the removal per say. It's your lack of empathy and communication. It's not because the majority agrees that it makes it any more "right". If your parents didn't like the way you turned out and disowned you without even talking about the issue how would you feel? Confused, frustrated, sad are all valid answers. We're mostly adults, we can communicate and fix our problems. Oh and for information I know my example is exagerated but for the sake of the argument it works because that's how I felt when they tried to kick me.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Anyone wasting another person's time invites and should expect criticism. They're lucky to get advice.

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Short answer: no. When a player is playing the game in a non-malicious and non-trolling playstyle, there should not be an expectation of criticism from strangers that they happened to be matched with. Again, this all goes back to unsolicited advice and how it rude that behaviour is in civil society. If you don't like the way they're playing, then either vote kick them or leave the group. But just by being in the group does not give you the right to give criticism and / or offer unsolicited advice.

It's a really sad that this needs to be explained. It should be common courtesy not to do it.

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Originally Posted by Annabellechu

You just need to understand, the problem is not the removal per say. It's your lack of empathy and communication. It's not because the majority agrees that it makes it any more "right". If your parents didn't like the way you turned out and disowned you without even talking about the issue how would you feel? Confused, frustrated, sad are all valid answers. We're mostly adults, we can communicate and fix our problems. Oh and for information I know my example is exagerated but for the sake of the argument it works because that's how I felt when they tried to kick me.

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Not sure if I used the word right, but if I did that is my fault since I am not saying that the action is correct or good because it passed, I am saying that the action is valid because the outcome of the vote is the only binary fact to to weigh the situation by. When you bring in outside feelings into this it creates situations that may lead to different outcomes for different people, but what I am saying is that everyone in theory should be able to agree that the outcome of a vote is a binary choice no middle ground it is black and white. If people treated it as such I do feel a lot of the issues with parsing, DF, play style difference would become a non factor. Since instead of viewing it as a personal attack on a style of play it comes down to an issue of well guess they did not want to play with me, oh well back at it. Since one constant I see when people talk about issues like this they let their own personal experience be it good or bad be the reason that justifies the vote instead of simply letting the outcome of the vote be the justification.

Do think when people try to bring right and wrong into this people tend to exaggerate or embellish a situation to create a more favorable image for their choice, instead of just using the outcome as a justification. Like with your disowning example sure I would be confused, and frustrated but that is irrelevant at that point since the deed was done, I can either choose to dwell on it or move on. My parents at that point do not care and it becomes a personal issue something I need to take care. Same goes for a lot of threads regarding removals most often either seeking justification or empathy towards the action but does that really do anything? End of the day the outcome is what matters the reasoning behind is moot to the general public since everyone handles everything differently. Once the removal happens it becomes an internal issue be it with yourself or GM.

Guess the view it is a akin to say a school had a policy had that every child must play if they are on a sports team, but the team does not want to have to deal with the kid that was forced to join the team because their parents wanted them to be on a sports team. So now the kid that honestly is only on the team because they were forced to is now forced to play a game and in situation A they try and fail or B they do not even bother to try because it does not matter since finishing the game is all that matters, or C they do want to learm and they are trying but the the expense of the team as a whole. In those situations it is bad all around for everyone it is not an enjoyable experience for anyone and only goes to build resentment all around.

As for your example I get where you are coming from, but way I see it what reason do they have to communicate? Would it be nice and helpful? Most differently but I do not think anyone should expect it being new is not a free pass as you mentioned before in your other thread. It is nice when you run into kind players but not everyone is kind, and to expect as much seems odd. Not saying you are expecting such but generally it does seem like people think being a new player means on a whole their experience has more value over the group itself.

Like with your example the reason for the removal is moot, the vote passed so that means the tank was not alone in how they felt, someone else must have felt the same so at that point it becomes a 2:1 in terms of time and experience in my opinion. The two of them verse you. While it sucks, I would say yes it does make sense for two people to put their time and experience over one person. Though I do not think it was personal, it was just a preference thing.

I know my view differs greatly from the norm, and maybe I do lack empathy, though I am on the spectrum and social norms go over my head. Sorry for the long rant, I find this topic interesting.

Everyone has feelings and yes feelings are indeed not rational. Remember that feelings are negative and positive. This exact problem could end up positive for everyone if people took a couple seconds to fix the problem. I see the kick option as a last resort option that if used too quickly, shows a lack of empathy or lazyness.

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Originally Posted by Annabellechu

Everyone has feelings and yes feelings are indeed not rational. Remember that feelings are negative and positive. This exact problem could end up positive for everyone if people took a couple seconds to fix the problem. I see the kick option as a last resort option that if used too quickly, shows a lack of empathy or lazyness.

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Would just like to point out:

When I queue up for a dungeon, I don't care about other peoples feelings. Will I be nice? Sure.
Will I try to give some advice? Yes. But it's plainly clear when people aren't willing to learn.

A vote kick is the last step, but once you have dealt with the "You don't pay my sub" attitude it's really hard to find sympathy for people who lack the skill to do even the very basics in high level content.
Also, would just like to point out that I'm not in the dungeon to teach someone a class. I'm there to complete a dungeon.

If a DPS, tank, or healer aren't doing the role they chose, I'm going to try and replace them - not coddle or teach them how to play.

Half the time when I even offer advice it's thrown back at me.

As it stands, even if the run will be longer because I kicked a healer, and another one doesn't queue for 10 minutes I am still not willing to put up with some horrible player who has a 50% overheal, regens tanks when topped off, and does nothing 80% of the time when they could be DPSing.

Also just to be clear, a common disconnect here seems to be that people who are willing to kick others are toxic elists who have the highest of standards, where you need to be dealing super high damage as a healer, and you need to do savage content. This isn't the case at all.

it's pretty easy to play by the basics:

Healers - ABC, DPS when not healing, use OGCD heals, AOE at +3 mobs, play cards if you're an AST
Tanks - keep aggro, use cooldowns effectively, pull large packs, AOEs at +3 mobs
DPS - stay out of bad, AOE at +3 mobs, ABC

This is all stuff you learn before level 50. I should be seeing it in level 70-80 content.

So question.
Does this happen to you folks often?
Seems like some of you seemingly get
an awful lot of bad players...

I think it's more that they remember the bad players more, since they stand out. I can still remember certain bad players, years later. I can't name many good players I've had, even though I have had a lot more good players in dungeons than bad ones

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Originally Posted by Jybril

So question.
Does this happen to you folks often?
Seems like some of you seemingly get
an awful lot of bad players...

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I do not run into bad players often, but I do run into players that I honestly do not wish to play with fairly often, that is why I tend to mostly queue with friends.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Because unless someone is actually preventing the completion of the run and refusing to take advice that would allow them to compete it I don’t think they should be removed from content

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A lot of content can be cleared while missing one or more members including tanks or healers. If someone AFKs they shouldn't be removed?

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

A lot of content can be cleared while missing one or more members including tanks or healers. If someone AFKs they shouldn't be removed?

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Well you took out the part of my post about communicating and trying so... =(

As human beings, we have the ability to speak to eachother. Communication evolved/perfected over hundreds of thousands of millions of years.

Maybe use that before resorting to cold, calculating system mechanics to try and blankly force an issue and hoping for a blind majority vote. I get that simply votekicking someone is easier and less uncomfortable than direct confrontation if there's something in need of resolution... but maybe see that social interaction as practice towards bettering yourself in terms of communicating with your fellow man (even if it turns negative it's still valuable life experience in learning to keep your cool), as well as potentially helping them be better at the game. It's a win-win.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

As human beings, we have the ability to speak to eachother. Communication evolved/perfected over hundreds of thousands of millions of years.

Maybe use that before resorting to cold, calculating system mechanics to try and blankly force an issue and hoping for a blind majority vote. I get that simply votekicking someone is easier and less uncomfortable than direct confrontation if there's something in need of resolution... but maybe see that social interaction as practice towards bettering yourself in terms of communicating with your fellow man (even if it turns negative it's still valuable life experience in learning to keep your cool), as well as potentially helping them be better at the game. It's a win-win.

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Obviously you have not read the Terms of Service yet. hehehe

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Originally Posted by Awha

I do not run into bad players often, but I do run into players that I honestly do not wish to play with fairly often, that is why I tend to mostly queue with friends.

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I'm genuinely interested in what you mean by a person you don't want to play with fairly often

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Obviously you have not read the Terms of Service yet. hehehe

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Surely the TOS doesn't discourage level-headed discussions among players. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I'm genuinely interested in what you mean by a person you don't want to play with fairly often

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There's a selection of individuals from my DC I personally dread having to do ES1-4 reclears with because they've proven to me even since back in SB that they're...less then reliable and prone to screwing up randomly at pretty much any point in a fight.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

Surely the TOS doesn't discourage level-headed discussions among players. ;)

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Nope. but people are generally not level headed when their performance is called into question.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Nope. but people are generally not level headed when their performance is called into question.

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Then I wouldn't worry about the TOS implications as long as you keep your cool. Keep in mind that while these people may not be level-headed, the people calling them out likely aren't always either. It's an opportunity for all of us to improve. But it's an opportunity to improve, only if we take it. Communicate with eachother, be the bigger person in learning to do so respectfully regardless of the hurdles you face, and don't hide quietly behind mechanics like votekick to do your speaking for you.

Pretend respectful communication is a class/job/role, and the people who make it difficult are a tough boss/dungeon. You'd continue to do your job to the best of your ability, even when adversity strikes, right?

I like how a response to me takes words out of my post to make it sound like I support not kicking people who are afk gets 4 likes yet my response saying that the part about communicating and trying got taken out gets ignored, keep it classy guys.

I've never had a bad run because of "bad" players, but I've a few bad runs because of people telling other people how to play which almost always ends up in someone being toxic. Luckily this doesn't happen very often.

And to be honest, the only players I consider bad are the ones that get toxic. I don't care much about performance as long as things die and we complete the run.

I've already posted my stance on it. Suggest and encourage and accept that your advice may be taken badly and then stop.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I like how a response to me takes words out of my post to make it sound like I support not kicking people who are afk gets 4 likes yet my response saying that the part about communicating and trying got taken out gets ignored, keep it classy guys.

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I like how you're subtly shaming people into supporting your view while trying to denounce the opposite view.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I like how you're subtly shaming people into supporting your view while trying to denounce the opposite view.

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Nope, I just want my view properly represented, that being said people taking words out of my response to try to misrepresent what I said should be ashamed yes.

Come to think of it, neither you or anyone else on that side of things has bothered to call him out for misrepresenting me and literally taking out words from my comment to make it look like I support people AFKing during duties, I'm guessing by your logic you support these tactics then because you called me out and not him?

I dunno how this even turned into a discussion about afking, "playing badly" is at least playing, while badly is an open ended definition that many have noticed is subjective depending on the player's standards, I think we would all agree people that join duties and just afk without notice aren't playing at all, thus I don't see how its relevant to the discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I like how you're subtly shaming people into supporting your view while trying to denounce the opposite view.

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I'm really more impressed that he keeps bringing up the like system that no one on this forum really cares about.

"Bro, you need to to increase your healing aptitude as it's quite deficient."

5 days later. GM pulls you into jail and asks if you know why you're here.

Just had some experience with this myself. Was doing an expert roulette on rdm and noticed the other red mage was doing jolt > impact. Tank was still double pulling and stuff was dying, but VERy slowly (couldn't help the pun).

So I literally just said "hey x, if you use aero 2/ thunder 2 then impact it does a lot more aoe damage"

They said "ok" then gave it a try and everything died much faster.

I followed up with an "awesome :)" after the pull and all was good.

People just have to be open to suggestions and you have to be open to the fact not everyone will listen *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Zsplash

"Bro, you need to to increase your healing aptitude as it's quite deficient."

5 days later. GM pulls you into jail and asks if you know why you're here.

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This literally does not happen.