Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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You make good points, and ideally yes we should design jobs to be like PCT - but we also have to be realistic with dev time and how fast they can actually do what we want VS how fast something needs to happen. It simply is not realistic with how much needs to be redesigned to make this work properly, and 8.0 is still a long way off.

I'm basing my suggestions on what can be implemented fast, with reasonable adjustments by the dev team without going for a shot in the dark and reworking everything. The worst thing right now is them doing nothing, the second-worst is just doing a round of buffs to every other job to avoid nerfs (which they might do, much to my dismay) because that simply has a lot of room to upset balance pre-Lv100 for Ultimates.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

With the exception of white mage, none of those jobs truly gain in the presence of downtime, they just lose much less than the gauge builders.

The fact is, having more jobs with unique mechanic that reward them in downtime scenarios while being inconsequential in full uptime scenarios is a net positive for class design and balance. It gives jobs different selling points and paths to their power.

The Olympic stretch is going for the gold. Nerfing picto becuase it dominates in one fight that majority of the player base will never is just the equivalent of giving everyone a participation award. That is to say, thanks for playing the same class as everyone else with a different skin. Black Mage and Picto are balanced in savage at the moment, the most popular raiding content in the game at this current moment. That is what is important. This whole thing just highlights how silly it was for SE to basically design none of the other jobs with a substantial gain from downtime. Even white mage could afford to gain more from it, however white mage is screwed by its proximity to astrologian, not becuase downtime like black mage is when compared to picto.

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Stop spreading this misinformation. Black Mage is not competing with PCT in full uptime Savage, it's behind, and the 7.1 buffs did not address the problem. Look at 7.05 data for M3S, a full uptime fight. PCT is ahead by 5% in rDPS and is ahead by 14%!!! in cDPS. And before you ask, the BLM buffs in 7.1 were nowhere close to closing that gap.

If BLM isn't ahead in full uptime, it's going to be completely hopeless in downtime fights. If BLM isn't ahead in rDPS, then it's going to be behind once buff contribution is factored in with cDPS.

If the PCT fans want PCT to have a niche, then its niche can be "high burst - good with buffs and downtime (high cDPS), less good in an unco-ordinated party (lower rDPS) or with killtimes not favouring burst". You can't have your niche be "best DPS in every situation in the game + party shield utility".

RE: Other people's point's about downtime: I'm fine with giving other jobs better downtime tools, however I personally find that playing around and managing downtime to be interesting skill expression. PCT motif painting is good because it's not just "slam button". So long as these downtime tools are well designed and in theme with the jobs - SAM meditate is a good example - I think they would make good additions.

Minor nitpick on BRD in downtime: no competent BRD was actually songless during downtime even before the song changes. I've personally never been, because if what was remaining on your song was too short for a downtime, then you'd cut it short and cast the next one to cover for that downtime. There hasn't been a single downtime bigger than 45s since Eden Prime. What being able to cast songs without targets in battle has brought is mostly usability and more flexibility without having to cut songs short or delay things as much, but in resources and gauge generation, this doesn't help the job more than what we had already. BRD has always been fine with downtime and decently flexible at that. Just not to PCT levels by far.

On player skill expression around downtime, I do believe this is a delusional idea. Trying to find solutions around downtime with each specific jobs, sure, requires skill, but who does it? You? No, the Balance does it for you. You just have to go there, or even just look at what other people do, and replicate it to a T. Monkey see, monkey does. There is no skill expression in reality for most of the player base, and even if you try to do it blind, which is commendable, you'll eventually check how other people deal with it past a point, and replicate.

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Originally Posted by Valence

On player skill expression around downtime, I do believe this is a delusional idea. Trying to find solutions around downtime with each specific jobs, sure, requires skill, but who does it? You? No, the Balance does it for you. You just have to go there, or even just look at what other people do, and replicate it to a T. Monkey see, monkey does. There is no skill expression in reality for most of the player base, and even if you try to do it blind, which is commendable, you'll eventually check how other people deal with it past a point, and replicate.

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That's why I like downtime skills like Meditate or motif painting, because there's some executional difficulty there in finding ways to paint / meditate during mechanics.

BLM is interesting with MP regen, because short downtimes where you can't get back all your MP cause your uptime rotation to become really interesting.

With regards to "everyone copies the Balance", I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. Technically you can copy whole rotations from people, but that doesn't mean that there's literally zero skill expression in playing each job. Adapting to weird killtimes and managing downtime is still skill testing to some extent. You're never going to get around the fact that it's just so much easier to get advice these days.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

Stop spreading this misinformation. Black Mage is not competing with PCT in full uptime Savage, it's behind, and the 7.1 buffs did not address the problem. Look at 7.05 data for M3S, a full uptime fight. PCT is ahead by 5% in rDPS and is ahead by 14%!!! in cDPS. And before you ask, the BLM buffs in 7.1 were nowhere close to closing that gap.

If BLM isn't ahead in full uptime, it's going to be completely hopeless in downtime fights. If BLM isn't ahead in rDPS, then it's going to be behind once buff contribution is factored in with cDPS.

If the PCT fans want PCT to have a niche, then its niche can be "high burst - good with buffs and downtime (high cDPS), less good in an unco-ordinated party (lower rDPS) or with killtimes not favouring burst". You can't have your niche be "best DPS in every situation in the game + party shield utility".

RE: Other people's point's about downtime: I'm fine with giving other jobs better downtime tools, however I personally find that playing around and managing downtime to be interesting skill expression. PCT motif painting is good because it's not just "slam button". So long as these downtime tools are well designed and in theme with the jobs - SAM meditate is a good example - I think they would make good additions.

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Black mage doesn’t need to be ahead at all, it just need to be competitive and it is. A 5% rdps disparity in savage is enough to have you crying that the class is unbalanced is ridiculous. If anything, black mage needs to get utility so that players like you can dispel this idea that just becuase you have no utility doesn’t mean you’re entitled to being the best class in the game.

It’s a design problem you’re advocating for that’s ruined caster balance since 4.0 when majority of player base started to learn how to optimize.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Black mage doesn’t need to be ahead at all, it just need to be competitive and it is. A 5% rdps disparity in savage is enough to have you crying that the class is unbalanced is ridiculous. If anything, black mage needs to get utility so that players like you can dispel this idea that just becuase you have no utility doesn’t mean you’re entitled to being the best class in the game.

It’s a design problem you’re advocating for that’s ruined caster balance since 4.0 when majority of player base started to learn how to optimize.

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Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

Gonna be another take, but I think 'good in uptime/downtime' is kind of a flimsy way to view job identity. Job identity is a lot more multifaceted than that. FFXIV's combat has both, and it isn't just an ultimate thing. Spots of downtime appear everywhere like in between trash/bosses in dungeons or alliance raids, or even between FATEs, hunt marks, and field operation type things. While yeah PCT is overtuned and needs adjustments, it demonstrates that a job can be designed to work in both uptime, and downtime. So I do think the rest of the jobs need changes, and better tools to work better with downtime, not against it. And these downtime considerations could lead to more choices to make during uptime.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

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"I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch"

Know this is a little topic I wouldn't be surprised a BLM did this bc from my own experience for the 4 expacs now Ihave seen a lot of BLM mains that can be very annoying and a little toxic. They are the only mains that I have found annoying bc they are usually very cocky and bull-headed about things. Always says things like "I should be the best job in the game bc Im Yoshi P fav and have no utility." Not saying you or all BLMs are like this but it does feel like there are quite few BLM who feel really entitled and think they should be the best dps all the time. Also realize there are probably PCT mains feeling this way as well and they wrong as well. This why person do believe the caster role as a whole needs a rework and BLM needs more of an identity of "I have to be the best unless Im useless"

Anyway just wanted to share my own exp with BLM mains in the game. I let the thread get back on topic now. I do hope we see something bc all the complaining about PCT is getting really tiring. Personiliy I just wish I could have my pre 6.0 smn back TwT That when I was truly happy with this game.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

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If we take PCT’s 7.05 numbers then take BLM’s 7.05 numbers and apply the relative buff BLM got in 7.1 (which is about 5-6% accounting for the 1% enochian change) or alternatively do the reverse and add the relative difference in drop between the 7.05 PCT and 7.1 PCT numbers to BLM both scenarios put BLM ahead in rDPS as an average so the desired balance of BLM in rDPS PCT in cDPS is basically already there

PCT was ahead in 7.05 but BLM’s current 7.1 numbers are about the same as PCT’s 7.05 numbers and BLM will have gotten the same average reduction in skill that PCT got

Really the only “egregious” problem with PCT right now is FRU and that basically circles back to “surprise surprise the only job that had an actual niche is ahead in its niche”, it’s basically in the same position as everyone else in terms of the homogenised slop they call savage balance

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If we take PCT’s 7.05 numbers then take BLM’s 7.05 numbers and apply the relative buff BLM got in 7.1 (which is about 5-6% accounting for the 1% enochian change) or alternatively do the reverse and add the relative difference in drop between the 7.05 PCT and 7.1 PCT numbers to BLM both scenarios put BLM ahead in rDPS as an average so the desired balance of BLM in rDPS PCT in cDPS is basically already there

PCT was ahead in 7.05 but BLM’s current 7.1 numbers are about the same as PCT’s 7.05 numbers and BLM will have gotten the same average reduction in skill that PCT got

Really the only “egregious” problem with PCT right now is FRU and that basically circles back to “surprise surprise the only job that had an actual niche is ahead in its niche”, it’s basically in the same position as everyone else in terms of the homogenised slop they call savage balance

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The relative buff BLM got in 7.1 was not 6% - how did you calculate that?

If you ignore the extra Ley Lines charge, the buff to the job was about 0.7%. Now let's assume that you have a short fight like M1S. Checking the top BLM logs, they kill M1S in a little over 7 minutes with about 40 casts of F4 contributing 12k/30k rDPS.

Ley Lines is 30/0.85 seconds of casting time in 30 seconds, so it gets you 5.3 seconds of extra casts. Your GCD is 2.42, now let's assume that you can perfectly align everything to get 3 extra casts of F4 out of your extra LL. 43/40 * 12k = 12.9, then 30.9/30 = 3% buff from extra LL being VERY generous.

Which means that under the most absolutely favorable conditions possible you could maybe consider it a 3.7% buff, assuming that you played absolutely perfect during a full uptime fight. Fight goes longer? Buff is smaller. Don't align perfectly with the killtime and you only get two extra casts? Buff is smaller. Can't get an extra F4 and have to cast a weaker spell instead? Buff is smaller.

I don't know why people keep insisting on using the 7.1 numbers either. Saying BLM got the same skill debuff as PCT is just pure speculation when we can numerically estimate just how much BLM got buffed by and it's clearly not enough to close the rDPS gap, let alone put it ahead.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if SE did their jobs and actually "brought jobs to PCT's level" like they were saying. Or you know, paid attention to how literally everyone and their mother knew that PCT was going to break ultimate balance.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

The relative buff BLM got in 7.1 was not 6% - how did you calculate that?

If you ignore the extra Ley Lines charge, the buff to the job was about 0.7%. Now let's assume that you have a short fight like M1S. Checking the top BLM logs, they kill M1S in a little over 7 minutes with about 40 casts of F4 contributing 12k/30k rDPS.

Ley Lines is 30/0.85 seconds of casting time in 30 seconds, so it gets you 5.3 seconds of extra casts. Your GCD is 2.42, now let's assume that you can perfectly align everything to get 3 extra casts of F4 out of your extra LL. 43/40 * 12k = 12.9, then 30.9/30 = 3% buff from extra LL being VERY generous.

Which means that under the most absolutely favorable conditions possible you could maybe consider it a 3.7% buff. Assuming that you played absolutely perfect during a full uptime fight. Fight goes longer? Buff is smaller. Don't align perfectly with the killtime and you only get two extra casts? Buff is smaller. Can't get an extra F4 and have to cast a weaker spell instead? Buff is smaller.

I don't know why people keep insisting on using the 7.1 numbers either. Saying BLM got the same skill debuff as PCT is just pure speculation when we can numerically estimate just how much BLM got buffed by and it's clearly not enough to close the rDPS gap, let alone put it ahead.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if SE did their jobs and actually "brought jobs to PCT's level" like they were saying. Or you know, paid attention to how literally everyone and their mother knew that PCT was going to break ultimate balance.

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You also missed the flare buff, flare being instant cast shortened its GCD and made the rotation more accessible and flexible. It’s relatively a larger buff than the raw 3-3.5% that comes from leylines

And estimating 7.1 from 7.05 is exactly what I did, because doing it either way ends up achieving the same thing, either apply the buff on top of 7.05 or estimate the relative drop of the jobs and apply that in reverse. Either way it comes out roughly the same. Specifically because you can see that even though the skill level went down, BLM went up by 5-6%

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You also missed the flare buff, flare being instant cast shortened its GCD and made the rotation more accessible and flexible. It’s relatively a larger buff than the raw 3-3.5% that comes from leylines

And estimating 7.1 from 7.05 is exactly what I did, because doing it either way ends up achieving the same thing, either apply the buff on top of 7.05 or estimate the relative drop of the jobs and apply that in reverse. Either way it comes out roughly the same. Specifically because you can see that even though the skill level went down, BLM went up by 5-6%

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You never cast Flare in single target, it's a very big DPS loss to do so. Maybe as a recovery option but at that point your rotation is already scuffed.

And if we're balancing around AOE DPS or 2-target scenarios, I've got some bad news for you about what PCT can do...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm not seeing any increase in BLM rDPS from 7.05 to 7.1, not even looking at silly quantities like median rDPS parse. Where's this 5-6% increase coming from?

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

You never cast Flare in single target, it's a very big DPS loss to do so. Maybe as a recovery option but at that point your rotation is already scuffed.

And if we're balancing around AOE DPS or 2-target scenarios, I've got some bad news for you about what PCT can do...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm not seeing any increase in BLM rDPS from 7.05 to 7.1, not even looking at silly quantities like median rDPS parse. Where's this 5-6% increase coming from?

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So I meant despair not flare, don’t know why I said flare

Also look at average across the 4 fights; BLM at 90th average score was 98 in 7.05 and 105 in 7.1, that’s a 6% buff even accounting for the average player skill dropping in 7.1

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So I meant despair not flare, don’t know why I said flare

Also look at average across the 4 fights; BLM at 90th average score was 98 in 7.05 and 105 in 7.1, that’s a 6% buff even accounting for the average player skill dropping in 7.1

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OK well if you're talking about the Despair changes, that's already factored into the net 0.7% buff that I mentioned earlier. Yes it is that small, you can thank SE for nerfing Enochian instead of buffing it.

RE: scores, you're misinterpreting the way fflogs presents normalized scores. The scores are not the actual DPS amounts.

If you look at the actual DPS amounts for 90th percentiles, in 7.05 BLM is at 27.42k rDPS and PCT is at 28.92k rDPS. Then if you look at patch 7.1, BLM is at 27.47k rDPS and PCT is at 27.37k rDPS.

Now I think we can all agree that PCT didn't actually get nerfed in 7.1, so once again I have to question why we're bothering to look at 7.1 patch data.

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

OK well if you're talking about the Despair changes, that's already factored into the net 0.7% buff that I mentioned earlier. Yes it is that small, you can thank SE for nerfing Enochian instead of buffing it.

RE: scores, you're misinterpreting the way fflogs presents normalized scores. The scores are not the actual DPS amounts.

If you look at the actual DPS amounts for 90th percentiles, in 7.05 BLM is at 27.42k rDPS and PCT is at 28.92k rDPS. Then if you look at patch 7.1, BLM is at 27.47k rDPS and PCT is at 27.37k rDPS.

Now I think we can all agree that PCT didn't actually get nerfed in 7.1, so once again I have to question why we're bothering to look at 7.1 patch data.

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Because if PCT’s skill went down then BLM did as well

You are basically saying “PCT didn’t get nerfed so ignore 7.1” then ignore 7.1 buffed BLM. There is no reason to believe that PCT went proportionally down while BLM didn’t

So you can increase PCT’s 7.1 score back to its 7.05 score but you also have to proportionally increase BLM’s score which still puts BLM ahead because the same lower skilled players are playing BLM and PCT in 7.1

That’s why it’s normalised score is higher

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because if PCT’s skill went down then BLM did as well

You are basically saying “PCT didn’t get nerfed so ignore 7.1” then ignore 7.1 buffed BLM. There is no reason to believe that PCT went proportionally down while BLM didn’t

So you can increase PCT’s 7.1 score back to its 7.05 score but you also have to proportionally increase BLM’s score which still puts BLM ahead because the same lower skilled players are playing BLM and PCT in 7.1

That’s why it’s normalised score is higher

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OK this going to be my last comment on this topic.

We know the gap in 7.05 (5.5% at 90th percentile rDPS), and we know the effect of the BLM buffs (3.7% AT MOST), and we know that BLM didn't get enough to catch up in rDPS. And if it's not catching up in rDPS (where a non burst job should be ahead), it's certainly not going to catch up anywhere close in cDPS.

Additionally, it might not be correct to scale up both jobs' 7.1 data. If the BLM buffs made it so much easier to play like you said, we'd expect BLM to gain relatively more with bad players compared to PCT which should have stayed the same. But we don't need to balance the game around people clearing in week 15 or whatever it is. At that point job balance doesn't matter at all since you're going to have plenty of gear and anyone can clear on anything they want, and the answer to "why can't I clear" isn't going to be "switch jobs" but instead just "play your job properly".

I personally don't get the insistence on defending SE's balancing here. Sure, I don't expect things to be perfect, but I expect some level of competence out of them. The fact that PCT was this far ahead on Savage release, the fact people KNEW its kit was going to be unbalanced in FRU when it was released - all these things were known MONTHS in advance and absolutely nothing was done.

Anyway, I look forward to the incremental buffs to BLM on every single even patch that barely bring it close to balanced by the end of the expansion, only for 8.0 to release, everything to get reverted, and SE to have learned nothing. At least that way I won't be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

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This is the problem, isn't it? Nobody wants their job to be nerfed. But failing to nerf an overpowered job makes people feel as if they have to play that job if they want to continue on in that role. And if they're not happy with the thought of that switch, they'll either have to find a new role or leave the game.

I was not happy with the state of tank balance for a long time given WAR's preferential treatment, and very nearly stopped playing the game entirely because of it. That's as someone with over a ten year investment in this game. It's really only the fact that there were new melee aesthetics that I found fun that I found a role that I could be much happier in. You can quickly see why the resentment that arises from milquetoast job balancing is incredibly bad for the game. You will temporarily hurt some feelings by nerfing an overpowered job. But when players see that you are committed to fairness all around without playing favorites, then they'll start to see the bigger picture.

I also was playing RPR in raid content at the time of the EW nerf, but I could still see why they did it. And even still, it did have some fantastic moments (Everburn? Yes please.) PCT is in the exact same situation now. It needs a nerf to set things right. But if we have a job balance team that is actually proactive about balancing instead of reactively mollifying everyone, it won't be very long before it has more moments to shine in the future. I want to see lots of different jobs trade-off and have chances to be on top, be they melee or ranged. I want every fight to favor different jobs, and that should change dynamically as fight clear times change and burst windows shift. I don't want to see the same jobs locked in, tier after tier. Variety is good.

I've made these points so many times now, that I'm starting to think the only solution is to rotate in a fresh job balance team with a new philosophy. One without the old biases and job preferences.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is the problem, isn't it? Nobody wants their job to be nerfed. But failing to nerf an overpowered job makes people feel as if they have to play that job if they want to continue on in that role. And if they're not happy with the thought of that switch, they'll either have to find a new role or leave the game.

I was not happy with the state of tank balance for a long time given WAR's preferential treatment, and very nearly stopped playing the game entirely because of it. That's as someone with over a ten year investment in this game. It's really only the fact that there were new melee aesthetics that I found fun that I found a role that I could be much happier in. You can quickly see why the resentment that arises from milquetoast job balancing is incredibly bad for the game. You will temporarily hurt some feelings by nerfing an overpowered job. But when players see that you are committed to fairness all around without playing favorites, then they'll start to see the bigger picture.

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Yeah I will be honest that PCT being left alone for this long, even locking me out of a few PFs as a THM main in 1.0 until Jobsystem was introduced later, then BLM ever since, has made me feel like quitting this game permanently until they fix PCT before Chaotic goes live next week. And I have a /playtime of 1800+ DAYS. I've never ever let my subscription lapse once since they started subscription fee in 2012. So I have thousands of €€€ and years invested into this game.
Overpowered classes completely ruins the fun for every other class it competes against.
I let my subscription go from 180 days down to monthly and my max retainers down to 2 extra as I'm slowly winding down my desire to continue playing after Dawntrail launched and PCT being left to break the remaining fun of the game. I despise PCT now. I bet if PCT was not this powerful that it wouldn't be nearly as much played.

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Originally Posted by Altera

Yeah I will be honest that PCT being left alone for this long, even locking me out of a few PFs as a THM main in 1.0 until Jobsystem was introduced later, then BLM ever since, has made me feel like quitting this game permanently until they fix PCT before Chaotic goes live next week. And I have a /playtime of 1800+ DAYS. I've never ever let my subscription lapse once since they started subscription fee in 2012. So I have thousands of €€€ and years invested into this game.
Overpowered classes completely ruins the fun for every other class it competes against.
I let my subscription go from 180 days down to monthly and my max retainers down to 2 extra as I'm slowly winding down my desire to continue playing after Dawntrail launched and PCT being left to break the remaining fun of the game. I despise PCT now. I bet if PCT was not this powerful that it wouldn't be nearly as much played.

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I legit like don’t understand this mindset. Like I said I’m fine to nerf PCT, it won’t change my desire to play it, but like we’ve already gone through this song and dance before. BLM was getting ripped to shreds by SMN in early ShB and was pretty poor overall in early EW as well

Youve got to understand that “if my job isn’t first it’s last” isn’t a sustainable mindset despite the fact that BLM has been clinging to it for 4 expansions now because it doesn’t have utility.

Again nerf PCT, it literally changes nothing to me, but if PCT isn’t allowed to flourish in its niche of ultimate (so at least 1-2% ahead of DRG which puts its 7-8% ahead of BLM) why even have a niche. Was PCT too strong prior to 7.05 in full uptime- 100% it was, was it still too strong after 7.05 before 7.1- yes it still was. Was it so strong after 7.05 that it was destroying the fun of the other jobs- absolutely not

Honestly BLM should be more annoyed than because the 2 minute meta is so emphasised it doesn’t even flourish in fights that are generous to it

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I legit like don’t understand this mindset. Like I said I’m fine to nerf PCT, it won’t change my desire to play it, but like we’ve already gone through this song and dance before. BLM was getting ripped to shreds by SMN in early ShB and was pretty poor overall in early EW as well

Youve got to understand that “if my job isn’t first it’s last” isn’t a sustainable mindset despite the fact that BLM has been clinging to it for 4 expansions now because it doesn’t have utility.

Again nerf PCT, it literally changes nothing to me, but if PCT isn’t allowed to flourish in its niche of ultimate (so at least 1-2% ahead of DRG which puts its 7-8% ahead of BLM) why even have a niche

Honestly BLM should be more annoyed than because the 2 minute meta is so emphasised it doesn’t even flourish in fights that are generous to it

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When PCT blocks me out of playing the content I want, then there is no reason for me to play is there.

I do not want my job to be OP, I just want things to be normal so one job isn't negating the reason for other jobs to exist. In Stormblood, BLM and Sam was excluded in PF as well because the buffs from ninja, drg monk, smn etc was way more damage than what a BLM or SAM could bring.

That Pictomancer alone made the changes to limit break generation, says pretty clearly something is broken with PCT, as that was to prevent parties to bring 2-4PCT

If PCT needs to be ludicrously overpowered for people to enjoy the job, then that job should be removed from the game. Again if PCT was balanced, I bet majority of people would abandon it completely

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Originally Posted by Altera

When PCT blocks me out of playing the content I want, then there is no reason for me to play is there.

I do not want my job to be OP, I just want things to be normal so one job isn't negating the reason for other jobs to exist. In Stormblood, BLM and Sam was excluded in PF as well because the buffs from ninja, drg monk, smn etc was way more damage than what a BLM or SAM could bring.

That Pictomancer alone made the changes to limit break generation, says pretty clearly something is broken with PCT, as that was to prevent parties to bring 2-4PCT

If PCT needs to be ludicrously overpowered for people to enjoy the job, then that job should be removed from the game. Again if PCT was balanced, I bet majority of people would abandon it completely

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“I want things to be normal so one job isn’t engaging the reason for other jobs to exist”

See this right here is the core of the problem with BLM (and MCH/SAM/VPR) if you don’t have utility then your job is “instantly useless” as soon as any other job does more damage than it and has utility. That’s the reason why BLM was garbage in 4.x, early 5.0 and now in 7.0. PCT is too strong (though I have no idea why you think that people only play it because it’s strong given SMN was the most popular job last expansion and has always been bad in 6.0, WHM and WAR are similar) but the state of balance of BLM NECESSITATES it being first so that it isn’t cried about being useless

This is the core of the problem and it’s larger than PCT because as you point out this isn’t a new issue.

“I have to be first or I’m useless” is simply a bad balancing mantra and it’s regularly why BLM ends up in the 4.x and 7.x situation. For example would you be so opposed to PCT’s damage (more so in savage than ultimate) if BLM actually had some unique utility only it could do?

The existence of the structure of downtime is always going to favour PCT, even if it was 1% ahead of DRG it would still be destroying BLM. PCT is too strong and you’ll hear no complaints on a nerf from me but do you understand how BLM’s balancing mantra is a deeper problem than PCT’s existence

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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I would have thought that you of all people ought to be able have some empathy on this point, because you yourself very recently gave up the healer role because of dissatisfaction around role balancing. You were lucky in that you found a job and role that still clicked with you. Not everyone is so fortunate. I don't understand your stance on this at all.

What you're describing is not a niche. It's complete dominance. You can still have your opportunities to shine without it. If jobs are well balanced, burst and continuous uptime jobs can both have their time in the spotlight. This isn't at all difficult to achieve. But everyone needs to be willing to share, and we need a job balance team that is willing and capable of facilitating it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Surely you of all people ought to be able demonstrate some empathy on this point, because you yourself very recently gave up the healer role because of dissatisfaction around role balancing. You were lucky in that you found a job and role that still clicked with you. Not everyone is so fortunate. I don't understand your stance on this at all.

What you're describing is not a niche. It's complete dominance. You can still have your opportunities to shine without it. If jobs are well balanced, burst and continuous uptime jobs can both have their time in the spotlight. This isn't at all difficult to achieve. But everyone needs to be willing to share, and we need a job balance team that is willing and capable of facilitating it.

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And you won’t hear me opposing everyone having a niche, which is why I don’t oppose PCT nerfs (like do I need to put this in my signature or something). Hell my entire problem with the healers is they are so homogenised the only niche any healer has is SCH just being better than everyone perpetually which you’ll notice I also oppose. PCT’s niche is ultimate (well high downtime), if it isn’t first in ultimate it’s not a niche. I never said it has to be as far ahead in ultimate, that’s why I regularly said 1-2% ahead of DRG. That niche can be narrowed if more jobs get niches but right now it’s the only job with a niche

My point is that the idea of selfish DPS being “I’m either first or I’m last” is a flawed balancing design because it regularly leads to BLM being terrible because as soon as it’s not first it’s by definition terrible. By the same definition PCT’s niche shouldn’t be “I’m better than everyone at everything and way better than everyone at ultimates”

The above discussion isn’t me saying “PCT doesn’t need to be nerfed in savage because it’s not ahead” I just like to argue so it’s more a casual discussion with the anendum it doesn’t change my stance PCT needs nerfs

Doing more DPS than everyone else is not a niche. The term should ideally be reserved for unique/creative support functionality, which this game is devoid of. Every DPS should have its moment to shine in terms of doing damage, because that's what it says on the tin.

I think the best balance is when there's not one singular job consistently on top. The problem is that PCT has been that singular job for most of this expansion, and everyone knows this by now. I don't think that you would have seen nearly as much pushback from the community if PCT had just about crept ahead on FRU after being a middling choice throughout the preceding Savage tier. We all know that downtime favors burst. That means that uptime should actually actively work against burst. The best burst job should also be the worst uptime job. Then you design fights that highlight a variety of uptime conditions, including varying degrees of melee downtime.

This is not just one singular problem. FRU was simply the final straw for some people.

That’s what I mean “every job should have a chance to shine”, PCT’s time to shine is arguably ultimates as they have heavy downtime, that’s why I called it a niche, if more jobs had a niche then it’s fine to narrow PCT’s niche, but since it’s the only job that has a niche it kinda ends up broadly ultimate right now

The fact it’s also been the best choice outside of ultimates is a problem I agree but there is previously little enough that can be done now to rectify past grievances other than ensuring PCT isn’t also first by default in the next savage tier

But overall the wider problem is job design, PCT is just a victim of its own success in that it’s the only job with a niche

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s what I mean “every job should have a chance to shine”, PCT’s time to shine is arguably ultimates as they have heavy downtime, that’s why I called it a niche, if more jobs had a niche then it’s fine to narrow PCT’s niche, but since it’s the only job that has a niche it kinda ends up broadly ultimate right now

The fact it’s also been the best choice outside of ultimates is a problem I agree but there is previously little enough that can be done now to rectify past grievances other than ensuring PCT isn’t also first by default in the next savage tier

But overall the wider problem is job design, PCT is just a victim of its own success in that it’s the only job with a niche

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Imo with PCT being this different to all other jobs, incl Viper which is the new job of DT, maybe PCT should be removed from the game and reintroduced in 8.0 when they do their so-called job reworks.

If PCT is allowed to run rampant for the entirety of Dawntrail, excluding jobs from content, I will not accept that and ready to cancel my subscription for the first time in almost 14 years now. I'm fine with other jobs doing a bit better than my own BLM, but PCT is just WAY too much. PCT is game breaking in current game and raid design. Or turn PCT into a Limited Job until 8.0.

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Originally Posted by Altera

Imo with PCT being this different to all other jobs, incl Viper which is the new job of DT, maybe PCT should be removed from the game and reintroduced in 8.0 when they do their so-called job reworks.

If PCT is allowed to run rampant for the entirety of Dawntrail, excluding jobs from content, I will not accept that and ready to cancel my subscription for the first time in almost 14 years now. I'm fine with other jobs doing a bit better than my own BLM, but PCT is just WAY too much. PCT is game breaking in current game and raid design. Or turn PCT into a Limited Job until 8.0.

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Honestly, you are being really unreasonable with the request to remove PCT from the game... I can't talk for everyone but PCT is the reason I came back to the caster role bc in EW my fav job, the job I clicked with and loved was destroyed just bc some ppl didn't like that it wasn't a "real" FF summoner and it was "too hard". Now I have a caster I like you and few others want to completely remove it bc it has the niche of being good in fights with downtime. Before you said anything, yes I do agree PCT needs nerfs. It is doing to much dps but this leads to my question to you. You said PCT needs to be balanced, while what is a balance to you? Where does PCT need to be DPS-wise to you? Im curious where you would put PCT.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Honestly, you are being really unreasonable with the request to remove PCT from the game... I can't talk for everyone but PCT is the reason I came back to the caster role bc in EW my fav job, the job I clicked with and loved was destroyed just bc some ppl didn't like that it wasn't a "real" FF summoner and it was "too hard". Now I have a caster I like you and few others want to completely remove it bc it has the niche of being good in fights with downtime. Before you said anything, yes I do agree PCT needs nerfs. It is doing to much dps but this leads to my question to you. You said PCT needs to be balanced, while what is a balance to you? Where does PCT need to be DPS-wise to you? Im curious where you would put PCT.

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Being good is one thing, being was too overpowered is another. The PCT has caused Savage tuning to be easier than they wanted due to they decided to buff every other job to to get get closer to PCT and they are still behind on damage.
PCT forced the change to Limit Break generation as to prevent groups from just bringing 2-4 PCTs.
Caused all other casters to be pretty worthless to bring to FRU
And will just likely break Chaotic 24 man by all group not caring about limit breaks or the 1 job each party bonus.

So yeah. Good you found a job you clicked with. But be honest, if it was just above RDM or higher on damage, would you still play PCT or would losing the OP state cause you to drop it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Honestly, you are being really unreasonable with the request to remove PCT from the game... I can't talk for everyone but PCT is the reason I came back to the caster role bc in EW my fav job, the job I clicked with and loved was destroyed just bc some ppl didn't like that it wasn't a "real" FF summoner and it was "too hard". Now I have a caster I like you and few others want to completely remove it bc it has the niche of being good in fights with downtime. Before you said anything, yes I do agree PCT needs nerfs. It is doing to much dps but this leads to my question to you. You said PCT needs to be balanced, while what is a balance to you? Where does PCT need to be DPS-wise to you? Im curious where you would put PCT.

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I would place PCT between RPR and RDM unless PCT drops its party buffs and just make those buffs personal. If PCT would be a pure selfish Job, being a easy job to play and not punishing rotations, it would be a bit below BLM still. A harder job to play perfectly should reward better damage as a trade-off imo

Deleted due to double posted for some reason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altera

Being good is one thing, being was too overpowered is another. The PCT has caused Savage tuning to be easier than they wanted due to they decided to buff every other job to to get get closer to PCT and they are still behind on damage.
PCT forced the change to Limit Break generation as to prevent groups from just bringing 2-4 PCTs.
Caused all other casters to be pretty worthless to bring to FRU
And will just likely break Chaotic 24 man by all group not caring about limit breaks or the 1 job each party bonus.

So yeah. Good you found a job you clicked with. But be honest, if it was just above RDM or higher on damage, would you still play PCT or would losing the OP state cause you to drop it?

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I mean let’s ask the reverse question as well (because yes nerfing PCT wouldn’t cause me to change playing it) you’ve strongly indicated BLM’s position within the caster meta strongly influences your opinion of the game. Would you be fine if BLM was nerfed to RDM level or just above? If the answer to that is no then why is it a valid question to ask people who like PCT

This again returns to the point I’ve been trying to discuss for the last few pages, let’s take PCT is overpowered and needs a nerf as a given (ie that’s not a valid answer to this point), your solution to PCT’s balance is putting it below BLM. And further you state that since it has a buff it “should” be lower.

Is the fact that BLM needs to be first not a problem with BLM’s design that PCT has simply shown more clearly because since ShB they refuse to let the rezz casters do good damage. Let’s say we nerfed PCT for the rest of 7.0 then there was some balance anomalies in 8.0 that put PCT ahead again but not disgustingly just 1-2%; would that be acceptable balance or would “BLM doesn’t have utility so it has to do more damage” win out again.

Let’s go even simpler. PCT is too strong right now, however do you have a problem with it being “first” amongst all classes in FRU if it was above the other by like 1%? If no WHEN is any caster allowed to be better than BLM because BLM has no advantages when it’s not first

I want PCT to be nerfed so it’s not dominating everything, I also want PCT to be amongst the cycle of classes “allowed” to be top DPS depending on fight and patch to patch balancing. But when does BLM “allow” that so to speak

This is independent of PCT’s actual dominance right now which I don’t think I need to state again I support nerfing

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Originally Posted by Altera

I would place PCT between RPR and RDM unless PCT drops its party buffs and just make those buffs personal. If PCT would be a pure selfish Job, being a easy job to play and not punishing rotations, it would be a bit below BLM still. A harder job to play perfectly should reward better damage as a trade-off imo

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So I somewhat agree but do have some disagreements. One yes I do think PCT should be nerfed but not be in the middle of RDM and RPR. I think PCT should stay among the melees who have utility(RPR,NIN,MNK,& DRG). I think if it was in the middle or only slightly above RDM you see the opposite of what happening now where PCT would be locked out of PFs bc most parties will rather have a rez caster in the caster slot to help with recoverly and would most likely pick a 2nd melee or blm for the flex spot since they would do more dps. So that is why I think PCT should do melee levels of dps since will need to compete for that flex spot with the melees and BLM.

On the topic of how hard jobs are and how rewarding they are, I be honest no job in ff14 is "hard" Most jobs follow pretty static rotation and only really require muscle memory to play. Sure there are fights you have a slight change rotation but again all you have to do is head to balance, learn what that rotation is, and keep doing till you get that memory down. Not that hard honestly. I don't think BLM is any harder to do than PCT for example. Especially since they have given BLM so much movement over the past few expacs and less things to manage like the removal of random thunder procs. Even if we balance the job around how hard they are to play then VPR would need a nerf as well bc IMO it's way too easy to be a selfish job and do high dps. VPR literacy tells you what button to press and the removal of Noxious Gnash made it even easier bc it removed the only thing you needed to keep track of and maintain.

Overall yes PCT does need nerfs but it should stay close to RPR/MNK/NIN/DRG so it can compete for that flex spot in a party. Also when it comes to balance we shouldn't really demand how much dps a job does base on how hard it is since most jobs are boiled down to muscle memory(that of course is my option).

Because Picto has raid damage buffs, party shield and heal. That's why it should never outperforming higher personal damage than any selfish no buffer jobs. Remove PCT party buffs and then welcome to the selfish DPS role

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I would have thought that you of all people ought to be able have some empathy on this point, because you yourself very recently gave up the healer role because of dissatisfaction around role balancing. You were lucky in that you found a job and role that still clicked with you. Not everyone is so fortunate. I don't understand your stance on this at all.

What you're describing is not a niche. It's complete dominance. You can still have your opportunities to shine without it. If jobs are well balanced, burst and continuous uptime jobs can both have their time in the spotlight. This isn't at all difficult to achieve. But everyone needs to be willing to share, and we need a job balance team that is willing and capable of facilitating it.

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“Have some empathy”

Give it a rest drama Queen, Red mage has been my favorite class in the game since it came out and the job has always been used in exactly 1 scenario. Meanwhile, black mages weren’t caring about how bad rdm and SMN have been for ages now because blm doesn’t have a raise so they’re entitled to being better. Now the job has always been legitimate contender in pictomancer and we have people like you complaining about smudge, Tempura Grassa and Starry Muse like those skills justify pictomancer being perpetually weaker than black mages.

That’s ridiculous, get over yourself and accept that the entitlement black mages have towards needing to be the best purely cause hey have nothing else to offer was and always has been stupid. It doesn’t matter if you’re worse than pictomancer in a fight it was designed to dominate in. The only justifiable reason pct at this current point needs a rebalance is because of how it breaks the ultimate encounter, but the fact that it’s better than black mage doesn’t matter. If black mages are getting locked out of parties. Just make a party and add a pictomancer slot and run 2 casters. The top clears in the world were largely double caster so what’s your excuse.

I’ve played caster since HW, I’ve seen SMN completely dominate both blm and rdm, I’ve seen blm dominate rdm and SMN, I’ve see mch dominate casters entirely. I’ve seen it all. What’s happening in fru literally doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. This is like complaining about nerfing verraise becuase red mage is too good for prog and SMNs can’t raise as fast. Well DUH, becuase thags what it was intended to do. It was designed to be this dominant in FRU, this wasn’t a surprise that they didn’t forsee. They knew and accepted it anyway

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altera

Imo with PCT being this different to all other jobs, incl Viper which is the new job of DT, maybe PCT should be removed from the game and reintroduced in 8.0 when they do their so-called job reworks.

If PCT is allowed to run rampant for the entirety of Dawntrail, excluding jobs from content, I will not accept that and ready to cancel my subscription for the first time in almost 14 years now. I'm fine with other jobs doing a bit better than my own BLM, but PCT is just WAY too much. PCT is game breaking in current game and raid design. Or turn PCT into a Limited Job until 8.0.

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Do you not see how crazy this sounds. PCT is so different from the other jobs and your solution is to remove it and stuff it later?

Guys this is a game first and foremost. Just play it, this is absolutely unhinged. Make your own PFs for fru or whatever content you do. But asking for something like this is completely ridiculous and a serious lack of self awareness. Also, you’re not fine with anyone doing more damage than blm because pictomancer is it’s direct competition that can justifiably keep up. If red mage and SMN were hitting higher than blm. You’d be complaining about them too.

Just say the quiet part out loud. “I want black mage to be the best cause it’s my favorite job to play” thats all anyone is going to see when you seriously suggest they remove a class from the game purely because it makes your favorite class worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

“Have some empathy”

Give it a rest drama Queen, Red mage has been my favorite class in the game since it came out and the job has always been used in exactly 1 scenario. Meanwhile, black mages weren’t caring about how bad rdm and SMN have been for ages now because blm doesn’t have a raise so they’re entitled to being better. Now the job has always been legitimate contender in pictomancer and we have people like you complaining about smudge, Tempura Grassa and Starry Muse like those skills justify pictomancer being perpetually weaker than black mages.

That’s ridiculous, get over yourself and accept that the entitlement black mages have towards needing to be the best purely cause hey have nothing else to offer was and always has been stupid. It doesn’t matter if you’re worse than pictomancer in a fight it was designed to dominate in. The only justifiable reason pct at this current point needs a rebalance is because of how it breaks the ultimate encounter, but the fact that it’s better than black mage doesn’t matter. If black mages are getting locked out of parties. Just make a party and add a pictomancer slot and run 2 casters. The top clears in the world were largely double caster so what’s your excuse.

I’ve played caster since HW, I’ve seen SMN completely dominate both blm and rdm, I’ve seen blm dominate rdm and SMN, I’ve see mch dominate casters entirely. I’ve seen it all. What’s happening in fru literally doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. This is like complaining about nerfing verraise becuase red mage is too good for prog and SMNs can’t raise as fast. Well DUH, becuase thags what it was intended to do. It was designed to be this dominant in FRU, this wasn’t a surprise that they didn’t forsee. They knew and accepted it anyway

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I kinda have to agree with Wayfiner here about how BLMs has never shown any empathy about rdm or smn last expac. I said it already in one of my posts on this thread but BLM mains have been one of the only groups I find annoying bc they tend to have this superiority complex and if they are not first they are last. It also furthers my belief that the caster role continues to be one of the WROST balance roles in ff14 to this day. I rarely see Sams have these type of discussions about other melees mainly bc the melees are fairly close together in strength and it doesn't really matter that Sam is a selfish dps. Meanwhile, casters always will have this huge gap in power among RDM/SMN and BLM/PCT bc two of these jobs has a rez while the other two don't. PCT has only made this even more clear since its the first caster that isn't a selfless dps or a rez mage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Do you not see how crazy this sounds. PCT is so different from the other jobs and your solution is to remove it and stuff it later?

Guys this is a game first and foremost. Just play it, this is absolutely unhinged. Make your own PFs for fru or whatever content you do. But asking for something like this is completely ridiculous and a serious lack of self awareness. Also, you’re not fine with anyone doing more damage than blm because pictomancer is it’s direct competition that can justifiably keep up. If red mage and SMN were hitting higher than blm. You’d be complaining about them too.

Just say the quiet part out loud. “I want black mage to be the best cause it’s my favorite job to play” thats all anyone is going to see when you seriously suggest they remove a class from the game purely because it makes your favorite class worse.

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PCT cannot be on direct competitive again BLM as Pictomancer is a hybrid. It doesn't have a raise like SMN/RDM, but it is not a selfish job like BLM. PCT has raid wide buffs, heal and shield. Remove all those buffs that boost the party and yeah it can compete with BLM, SAM, VPR. If you cannot understand that simple fact, you just want one Job to be vastly overpowered in all aspects, ease of play, buffs to party, and selfish damage that's beyond the pure selfish Jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altera

PCT cannot be on direct competitive again BLM as Pictomancer is a hybrid. It doesn't have a raise like SMN/RDM, but it is not a selfish job like BLM. PCT has raid wide buffs, heal and shield. Remove all those buffs that boost the party and yeah it can compete with BLM, SAM, VPR. If you cannot understand that simple fact, you just want one Job to be vastly overpowered in all aspects, ease of play, buffs to party, and selfish damage that's beyond the pure selfish Jobs.

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This is exactly the problem I’m discussing. Let’s ignore the fact that starry muse isn’t utility (it just makes others do damage) the idea that only the selfish jobs can be top DPS is simply a constrictive and bad philosophy because you are basically saying “PCT has a shield, BLM doesn’t so PCT ALWAYS has to be worse than BLM”. PCT can’t be a competitor to BLM if it’s never allowed to be better than it same as you currently have the problem that BLM isn’t a competitor to PCT because PCT is always better than BLM

And then you don’t even apply this to melee. The top 3 melee in savage for 7.05 are DRG (has a raid buff), NIN (has a raid buff), MNK (has a raid buff, heal and heal amp). What even counts as utility to make one not a selfish job these days. Does SAM’s monstrous tank level CD make it not selfish? Why are the melee allowed to bounce around like kids in a bouncing castle but BLM always has to be ahead because it doesn’t bring anything besides its damage

The fact that people cling to this balance philosophy is why BLM ends up being bad so often. Because according to said Philosophy it HAS to be the best or it’s the worst. The only reason BLM has been relatively stable for the last few patches is because after the 4.x into early 5.x patches with SMN the rezz casters haven’t been allowed to compete with BLM making BLM a functional pseudo melee. If PCT isn’t competing with BLM it’s competing with nobody for a spot that doesn’t exist. This doesn’t mean PCT should dominate like it does but it also has to be allowed to be better than BLM in some circumstances

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altera

PCT cannot be on direct competitive again BLM as Pictomancer is a hybrid. It doesn't have a raise like SMN/RDM, but it is not a selfish job like BLM. PCT has raid wide buffs, heal and shield. Remove all those buffs that boost the party and yeah it can compete with BLM, SAM, VPR. If you cannot understand that simple fact, you just want one Job to be vastly overpowered in all aspects, ease of play, buffs to party, and selfish damage that's beyond the pure selfish Jobs.

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It’s like you’re ignoring everything we’re trying to tell you. The idea of selfish job IS the problem. You’ve isolated the idea that selfish DPS need to be catered to in viability because they hav nothing to offer but fail to recognize the obvious flaw in that game design decision. This idea that you need to be the best all the time or your worthless is horrendous class design and I have 100% definitive proof that it’s flawed.


Machinist

The worst of the pure DPS is constantly handled so badly because pure DPS compete with other pure DPS and nobody is going to take the weakest one when all of them in general have little to offer. This is why black mage is struggling so often. It’s not because the other classes are doing too much. It’s because it and all of the selfish DPS have absolutely nothing to offer. That’s the change you should want for black mage, meaningful and engaging utility to allow it to thrive independently of what the rest of its competitors. Until that happens, Pure DPS are doomed to fail because they can’t always be the best amongst their role and they can’t be best amongst their archetype.

You’re advocating for a flaw in class design and until you recognize it. Black mage is going to be considered trash time and time again any time SE decides to buff another class, to viability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This is exactly the problem I’m discussing. Let’s ignore the fact that starry muse isn’t utility (it just makes others do damage) the idea that only the selfish jobs can be top DPS is simply a constrictive and bad philosophy because you are basically saying “PCT has a shield, BLM doesn’t so PCT ALWAYS has to be worse than BLM”. PCT can’t be a competitor to BLM if it’s never allowed to be better than it same as you currently have the problem that BLM isn’t a competitor to PCT because PCT is always better than BLM

And then you don’t even apply this to melee. The top 3 melee in savage for 7.05 are DRG (has a raid buff), NIN (has a raid buff), MNK (has a raid buff, heal and heal amp). What even counts as utility to make one not a selfish job these days. Does SAM’s monstrous tank level CD make it not selfish? Why are the melee allowed to bounce around like kids in a bouncing castle but BLM always has to be ahead because it doesn’t bring anything besides its damage

The fact that people cling to this balance philosophy is why BLM ends up being bad so often. Because according to said Philosophy it HAS to be the best or it’s the worst. The only reason BLM has been relatively stable for the last few patches is because after the 4.x into early 5.x patches with SMN the rezz casters haven’t been allowed to compete with BLM making BLM a functional pseudo melee. If PCT isn’t competing with BLM it’s competing with nobody for a spot that doesn’t exist. This doesn’t mean PCT should dominate like it does but it also has to be allowed to be better than BLM in some circumstances

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You pick a job and accept the trade-off. Want max damage and nothing else, pick BLM SAM VPR, want should, dmg buffs to party, heals but lower self personal damage, choose Picto, want raise as well but at the cost of even a bit lower personal damage pick RDM/SMN.

At this point I just want them to all party wide buffs to BLM SAM VPR. BLM can get 1.0s ability BloodRite back that buffs the whole party by spilling it's blood on a ritual that enhances party speed and damage. Or make Blizzard 4/Freeze to cause Brittle status effect on enemies, causing the enemy to take extra damage for a time. If the whole buffing Vs selfish design is too hard to balance, give every single job a party wide buffs to damage, shield etc. BLM could get its old Stygian Spikes. Causing the enemy that strikes a player to take thunder damage pr hit it does.