PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, it's nice to go towards the "right" end, but you can't dismiss Sheltron while still saying that Raw Intuition is good, since they have the same requirement, and ignoring Clemency.

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Raw intuition can at least be used for fluff damage or multiple incoming hits in A2S, Sheltron provides you with a single block and thus is only useful for one hit and no more every 30 seconds. Clemency is a very impractical skill and merely casting it reduces your DPS to 0 for 3 seconds, not counting the possibility of it being interrupted or healers topping you off faster you can even get it off.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

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First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way. Even if the devs called it "Brilliant".

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content. I do not see how it is relevant. Also SE deliberately went the route of making encounters requiring MORE double tank/healer efforts after people solo tanked all of SCoB (after vastly out-gearing it, mind you) and made it so you CANNOT solo tank FCoB and Alexander. You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

Since 2.1, WAR has been on equal terms (or superior in environments that ignored shield) with PLD when it comes to mitigation but has always been behind because of its effective healing. PLD was the MT of choice because of safety, not mitigation. There is a difference. PLD is far safer than WAR in every scenario.

When a PLD increases its eHP, it increases its effective healing by the same percentage. Rampart increases eHP by 25% AND effective healing by 25%. Sentinel by 67%. PLD is equal in terms of raw mitigation to WAR but the discrepancy comes from safety and effective healing.

WAR healing discrepancy comes from the following:

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Abilities do not get affected by Defiance, WAR receives 25% worse healing from all abilities. This includes all healer abilities with a potency like Lustrate, Tetragammaton, Assize and Essential Dignity. This also includes WAR's own self heals since they do not scale with Defiance. Since percentage healing is removed aside from Benediction, you can see how bad this affects WAR.

One of WAR's major CDs is Thrill of Battle, which increases WAR's eHP but not effective healing, increasing the effective healing discrepancy by 20%. This is usually offset with Convalescence. ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set. Raw Intuition is what puts WAR on equal terms with PLD when it comes to "physical damage mitigation".

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

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Classic OPneedNerfs coming in adding irrelevant ad hominems at players and completely wrong statements with no proof or contribution.

I see you are still holding a grudge. But I'll reply to you anyways...

1- No body talked to you.

2- EVERYTHING I stated, I provided either the math, parse or videos of people providing the math or parses for in one or more of my posts.

3- You first came in and attacked the whole warrior community with a childish statement of "It is funny how warriors are afraid to lose their established solidified spot in every raid group" which had absolutely no relevance on any of the threads and adds 0 contribution. This entire thread is about PLDs crying that they have competition for the MT spot. (it isn't even completely taken over!)

4- Please stop with these childish posts and contribute something or simply leave. Thank you.

I will ignore anything you type from now on.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

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WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

...

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Someone has to be lowest DPS. Just like how BRD and MCH are 300 DPS behind DRG and are considered lowest. BRD and MCH still find their place in raid groups. So will PLD.

WAR needs more healing than PLD. That is something that WAR needs! Just because WAR is one of the 2 classes that provide the slashing debuff it became the most independent class in the game? Oh and please let's not pretend that WAR TP was an issue because it didn't exist pre-HW. WAR always had 0 cost GCDs and pacification after Zerk.

Oh and in before someone says T10. We'd be counting exceptions. Also, I main tanked that fight and never had any TP issues. Even when keeping Fracture up 100% on the boss. I used to drop Defiance to increase DPS, which was WAR's version of "stance dancing" before Deliverance.

World/server firsts try to complete content before they have the gear for it. It's a whole different challenge and approach to the game. They also haven't tried WAR MT / PLD OT, they straight went and changed PLD MT to DRK MT. They dropped actual DPS (MNK) for other DPS (NIN) to squeeze in more DPS as well. So let's stop bringing them up when it comes to tank DPS comparisons.

Along with the reasons above, no body should care about world firsts since you, me and the rest of the community, are not in world/server firsts. We play in our statics, and our statics have their own setups, skill levels and conditions. Also PLD's "survival threshold" is lower than WAR. PLD allows healers to DPS more than a WAR tank. PLD providing slightly less DPS than WAR is irrelevant when healers healing PLD can dish out more DPS than the ones healing WAR.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

What did I tell ya, as expected from phoenica.

Aw poor phoenica, using "I'll ignore you now" because ad hominems didn't work and a lack of proof weren't good enough.

Funny how this all stemmed from you huh? Guess someone's projecting.

Quit while you're behind. You're making a fool of yourself, especially to veteran tanks.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

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I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way.

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Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content.

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Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

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The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

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Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)
And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.
Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

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Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set.

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Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

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No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Someone has to be lowest DPS.

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Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

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But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

and PLD get's double penalized with GCD and roughly 1/6th total MP loss.

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I didn't realize paladins actually wanted to use their MP to cast clemency and stoneskin. From reading through this post, it seems like most of em don't care for it lol.
#jokes

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

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Yoshi-P said he wants to stick to the 2 tank 2 healer 4 DPS formula and not to deviate from it in one of his live letters. So it's not a "claim" by me. He repeats that point every time people ask for hybrids or support roles.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

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While longer doesn't "necessarily" mean inferior, if a group can do it without dying, it IS inferior. Any static that cleared BCoB before 2.1 did it the "normal" way which lasted 5~8 minutes less. Making it "better".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

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Solo tank T5 was a thing only when everyone was already ilv90. Which is higher than the required entry level.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

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I didn't say you can't. I'm saying content isn't designed for it to be that way.

Edit: This also reminded me how stupidly easier it was to do duo tank in Shiva Ex but people still preferred solo tank to kill Shiva a whole 6 seconds faster. Ramuh Ex solo tank - 3 healers was more taking than a normal strat too.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)

And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.

Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

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First of all: You shouldn't compare WAR and PLD CDs one-to-one because they have a different structure. TOB+IB+Conv is still weaker than Sentinel. Vengeance+IB is slightly stronger than Sentinel. Any IB + CD is stronger than Rampart. On a 1 min CD buster (which most of this games busters), WAR will alternate ToB+IB and Veng+IB. PLD will have a more strict CD "rotation" which, if the fight is longer than 5 minutes (5 busters), will include Hallowed Ground. Overall mitigation is still the same.

I also stated PLD and WAR have almost equal mitigation (one of them is gonna be more than the other depending on the fight) but the discrepancies are safety and effective healing.

Secondly: Inner Beast can be used 5 times per Rampart, not 3. You need 17.5s to recharge + 2.5 to use, and you have Infuriate. So you have 1 IB / 20s, in a 90s you have 4.5 x 20s + 1 infuriate. But that's WAR's mitigation advantage which I mentioned in my post quoting myself:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

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I also said:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

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WAR self-healing isn't "THE" advantage it has. It is something to make up for something else. Inner Beast heal portion is not increased by Defiance as it is not a spell.

I also mentioned that %heals are removed from the game now.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

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Personally I don't even have Awareness slotted. But ignoring the fact that Raw Intuition is not a "push and forget" like the entirety of PLD's CD kit is ignorant. Also in big AoE situations with large mobs, some WILL get into your flank due to mobs not liking to stand on each other's hitboxes.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

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I provided the math behind this "hunch". A good WAR will make up for the discrepancy of received healing just like how a good PLD will let their healers and DPS do more DPS.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

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As I siad earlier in my posts, healers can still capitalize more on PLD's longer CDs and passive mitigation to DPS more. Specially during fluff damage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

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WAR MT + WAR OT is like a group running 4 DRGs. You will have more individual DPS (and more raid DPS) but for various reasons, it is not an optimal set up.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Yoshi-P said he wants to stick to the 2 tank 2 healer 4 DPS formula and not to deviate from it in one of his live letters. So it's not a "claim" by me. He repeats that point every time people ask for hybrids or support roles.

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Thanks for the "out of context" sentence. He said that he want to stick with the trinity, and that another role would be difficult to include is the 2/2/4 setup.
But this setup is only for the Duty Finder. Back in 2.0, some fights didn't require this setup, and it was even a very bad setup. An off-tank is worthless if there's only one target.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Any static that cleared BCoB before 2.1 did it the "normal" way which lasted 5~8 minutes less. Making it "better".

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No, only making it faster.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Solo tank T5 was a thing only when everyone was already ilv90. Which is higher than the required entry level.

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Yes, maybe. So what ? Didn't it make the setup viable ? Or uninteresting ?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I didn't say you can't. I'm saying content isn't designed for it to be that way.

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Again, it depends on the content. With a proper orb management, A4 is doable with a single tank, to be clear much faster with the additionnal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

This also reminded me how stupidly easier it was to do duo tank in Shiva Ex but people still preferred solo tank to kill Shiva a whole 6 seconds faster. Ramuh Ex solo tank - 3 healers was more taking than a normal strat too.

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Yet the game let them try this. And it worked. Back in the days, solo tank Ramuh EX was also an effective strategy since Lustrate wasn't reduce by the healing debuff.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You shouldn't compare WAR and PLD CDs one-to-one because they have a different structure.

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The problem is that WAR can pop Inner Beast more often than PLD can pop any cooldown. So, apart from Hallowed Ground, whatever cooldown a PLD can use, WAR can use a better combination. While still keeping Holmgang as an "oh,shit" button.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Inner Beast can be used 5 times per Rampart, not 3.

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Indeed, I didn't count Infuriate, thanks for going my way. The problem with Inner Beast is that it can easily heal for more that 20% of any healing abilities.
Lustrate is 600, Tetragrammaton is 700. Even with 20% increase, it would pale in comparison to a native healing on top of the 300 potency of Inner Beast.
And let's not count if the WAR is targeted by Clemency during Convalescence...

WAR self-healing may not be "THE" advantage, but it easily put its higher than PLD in terms of eHP.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Personally I don't even have Awareness slotted. But ignoring the fact that Raw Intuition is not a "push and forget" like the entirety of PLD's CD kit is ignorant.

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You mean like Sheltron and Bulwark, were you don't blocks if mobs are behind or too far on your flank ? Please...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Also in big AoE situations with large mobs, some WILL get into your flank due to mobs not liking to stand on each other's hitboxes.

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If mobs get to your flank, you wouldn't even parry their attack, so why do you pop Raw Intuition for mitigation anyway ? Pop Vengeance, or Inner Beast (This, again...) or even Bloodbath with an overpower spamfest, and you'll keep plenty of HP.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I provided the math behind this "hunch". A good WAR will make up for the discrepancy of received healing just like how a good PLD will let their healers and DPS do more DPS.

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The problem with your math is you sound like it's something special for a WAR. It's its basic gameplay, so it will always make up for this discrepancy.
You can't say a PLD is "good" only because it uses its cooldown..

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

As I siad earlier in my posts, healers can still capitalize more on PLD's longer CDs and passive mitigation to DPS more. Specially during fluff damage.

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Again, the gap is so thin between WAR and PLD that healers can output the same DPS with either tank.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR MT + WAR OT is like a group running 4 DRGs. You will have more individual DPS (and more raid DPS) but for various reasons, it is not an optimal set up.

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Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

There's a video on Reddit of PLD POV A3S clear with 740 dps. Pretty good if you ask me.

Instead of buffing paladin, can we just buff every class in the game stupidly high in order to negate the fact that a vast majority of the people playing mmos are completely retarded and choose to play terribly so I no longer need to carry 7 people in df through alexander while having the highest dps in the group as a warrior just so I can lose the roll on gear I would like to have for progression?

#whatisacomma

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

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There's no irrefutable reason (besides the boring moar dps one) that stacking two Warriors is better than bringing some combination of the three. There are pros and cons to all the setups.

War/War = no Reprisal / no Halone
Pld/Pld = No slashing / no reprisal / no Halone
Drk/Drk = no Slashing / no Path / No Halone

In the war/war combination, you miss out on one less debuff but the other combinations can mitigate that by adding a Ninja. If you want to say "It's not fair that Pld/Drk have to rely on War/Nin for their optimal damage", go talk to the Bards, Machinists, Black Mages and Summoners about their Piercing Debuff and Foes—I'm sure they'll tell you to deal with it and adjust your party comp accordingly.

#HallowedGround

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

War/War = No Reprisal / No Halone / No Delirum
Pld/Pld = No slashing / No reprisal / No Path / No Eye / No Delirum
Drk/Drk = No Slashing / No Path / No Eye / No Halone

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I completed your list. And with a WAR, you have Storm's path which is a better Reprisal (Even if both stacks)

As for NIN, Dancing Edge is a DPS loss for them, so a WAR helps NIN more than a PLD or a DRK.
Delirum is a bit strange since it's only useful on magical attacks and only if you have no monk.

Yes, you have Hallowed Ground, but it's not something you'd use all the time, and Holmgang is not that weaker most of the time, especially since WAR can burst heal a lot of HP right after that.

Living Dead, on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, only making it faster.

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Faster is more efficient, more efficient is always better. As long as you don't wipe and redo the whole thing, faster is ALWAYS better.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, maybe. So what ? Didn't it make the setup viable ? Or uninteresting ?

Again, it depends on the content. With a proper orb management, A4 is doable with a single tank, to be clear much faster with the additionnal DPS

Yet the game let them try this. And it worked. Back in the days, solo tank Ramuh EX was also an effective strategy since Lustrate wasn't reduce by the healing debuff.

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Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm saying it's not how it is designed to be. Also since you speak of "not faster but better", Solo tank Shiva ex risked tank deaths and wiping far more than the far easier and safer but 8-seconds slower two tank strategy.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem is that WAR can pop Inner Beast more often than PLD can pop any cooldown. So, apart from Hallowed Ground, whatever cooldown a PLD can use, WAR can use a better combination. While still keeping Holmgang as an "oh,shit" button.

Indeed, I didn't count Infuriate, thanks for going my way. The problem with Inner Beast is that it can easily heal for more that 20% of any healing abilities.
Lustrate is 600, Tetragrammaton is 700. Even with 20% increase, it would pale in comparison to a native healing on top of the 300 potency of Inner Beast.
And let's not count if the WAR is targeted by Clemency during Convalescence...

WAR self-healing may not be "THE" advantage, but it easily put its higher than PLD in terms of eHP.

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Again, this would matter if mitigated damage mattered. But since most tank busters are at least 1 minute apart, it's irrelevant. Any IB used outside of tank busters is "waste of DPS" and reduces the damage of three auto-attacks at most. Also do not forget that potencies on spells are higher than physical skills because of weapon damage on magical weapons. Inner Beast heal is weaker than Physic unless you crit while zerked. There is a reason why a lot of tank analysis initially ignore IB's heal and add it near the end as a layer to make up for effective healing lost.

Also, this is very important, due to its nature, IB will be used BEFORE you take the damage, resulting in its heal being an over heal. And since any good WAR CD rotation will incorporate Infuriate to mitigate more instead of heal more, double IB on a single buster is a rare thing.

Also let's not bring this out of context. It is not so white and black. People are complaining about WAR's DPS while tanking. Every IB WAR used is a FC WAR did not use. Leading to less MT DPS. Every time WAR flips to Defiance for Equilibrium or IB heal is at least 10s NOT in Deliverance AND 1 minute without the bonus TP that people seem to envy WAR so bad for. Every 200 TP gained by Equilibrium is a self heal WAR did not use. It is not like WAR is a power house with infinite TP and endless self-healing. In most fights, a WAR focused on defense gives up a lot of its DPS to be "as good as PLD", not better.

Again, WAR's self healing is there to make up for the lack of the passive mitigation of the shield and less overall effective healing received. It's not like WAR depends less on healers because it can self-sustain. Also the higher the damage WAR takes, the less relevant those heals are compared to pure damage mitigated.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You mean like Sheltron and Bulwark, were you don't blocks if mobs are behind or too far on your flank ? Please...

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Sheltron and Bulwark don't get you hit for more (crits) if you don't block. Hence they are "press-and-forget".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If mobs get to your flank, you wouldn't even parry their attack, so why do you pop Raw Intuition for mitigation anyway ? Pop Vengeance, or Inner Beast (This, again...) or even Bloodbath with an overpower spamfest, and you'll keep plenty of HP.

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Again, RI gets you hit for a crit if you're not careful. Vengeance is on a longer CD, and if a WAR pops IB in AoE it's a massive DPS loss, which, again, is what this whole thread is crying about, DPS. Also let's not pretend you don't need to move to avoid telegraphed attacks which make you prone to flank hits.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem with your math is you sound like it's something special for a WAR. It's its basic gameplay, so it will always make up for this discrepancy.
You can't say a PLD is "good" only because it uses its cooldown..

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It is a special thing that WAR increases its max HP by as much as PLD and DRK increase their own eHP but not its received healing by the same amount. Hence PLD and DRK receive better effective healing. The basic gameplay of WAR is that it requires more input from someone to make up for a discrepancy that the other tanks don't have. As a reward, WAR can mitigate slightly better.

If it wasn't a "problem", WAR would've already been the MT of choice since it is on equal terms of mitigation with PLD. But it isn't the MT of choice. And don't give me any of that bull of WAR being a far better OT. Nothing a WAR OT does that it can't do as MT as opposed to PLD which can cast freely from the OT spot. Also we'd see WAR/WAR runs being THE thing. But it is a fact that PLD or DRK are almost always in the MT spot while WAR is stuck in the OT spot. If you can't see why PLD or DRK take that spot over WAR, you are missing the whole point of safety.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, the gap is so thin between WAR and PLD that healers can output the same DPS with either tank.

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The gap is there. Every tank analysis HAS to acknowledge this gap. Healers WILL notice that they need to do more to heal WAR. Self-healing also increases over-healing issues. Healers will panic more with a WAR tank. WAR will almost always have the healer drop cleric stance at least 1 GCD earlier than they would with a PLD.

For WAR to match PLD's mitigation, it gives up a lot of its DPS. But since this is a cry-about-DPS thread, the logic behind WAR superiority is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

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Nor do you lose anything by not having a WAR. If you want to ignore the safety net of those two tanks over WAR and the damage specific debuffs. Slashing Debuff is not unique to WAR. NIN gains about 40~70 DPS for not using DE. Why is losing Storm Path any worse than losing RoH on a physical fight or Delirium in a magical one? Let's not forget that any good WAR wouldn't keep Storm Path up 100% of the time on any fight. WAR loses 30~50 DPS by substituting every Butcher's Block with Storm Path.

Also double classes hit the LB fill time hard. Making hard fights that much harder.
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All that said and done, don't get me wrong. I do not think WAR is "weaker" than the other tanks. On the contrary, I think it is the strongest of the three. But it is the least safe and safety is a thing. WAR, however, isn't superior to the other two. Each of the three tanks has a niche it fulfills very well. PLD wouldn't even complain if DRK wasn't added and they felt that their spot as the god-sent MT of choice is threatened.

You can't just ignore everything a class does and bring it down to DPS, because if we did that, every group will be 2 WARs, 4 DRGs and 2 SCHs. With almost 80% uptime on Battle Litany and WAR's keeping the slashing debuff going even when one of them is triple cleaving, the DPS is massive.

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior. I'm very experienced in tanking in MMO's, I would like to know which is more efficient and/or fun subjectively in end-game content.

From the looks of the direction of this thread, Warrior looks to be the best choice but I'd still like some input before I decide! Thanks.

@Phrost

Try each one and see which you like best, in the end that is what should really matter.
Class/Job balance will change as will what the current end game content is and who it may favor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phrost

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior. I'm very experienced in tanking in MMO's, I would like to know which is more efficient and/or fun subjectively in end-game content.

From the looks of the direction of this thread, Warrior looks to be the best choice but I'd still like some input before I decide! Thanks.

---

And this is the core of what is wrong with pld. We all play this game to have fun, and when compared to the other two it isn't.

DpSing respectably while tanking is fun. Being the worst at this, while not even being the best at what pld is designed for is not.

It's fine for trade-offs between the classes, but let's stop pretending the current trade-offs are balanced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phrost

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior. I'm very experienced in tanking in MMO's, I would like to know which is more efficient and/or fun subjectively in end-game content.

From the looks of the direction of this thread, Warrior looks to be the best choice but I'd still like some input before I decide! Thanks.

---

Pick the tank with the play-style or aesthetic you like the most.

SE has a good history of balancing classes and if content shafts one class, that class will be buffed or content that suits it will be made.

Since you are already leveling Gladiator, get it to 34 for Awareness (optimal) or at least 22 for Provoke (Mandatory, can't stress this enough).

Simple differences between the three tanks:

Paladin: Your run-in-the-mill simple, straightforward and mitigate-all tank. Has the best overall defenses and is designed around having higher defensive and supportive abilities at the cost of being the lowest DPS. PLD has no additional resources to manage and is considered the "easiest" to play. Large gap between its Main tank and off tank DPS. PLD is the preferred MT for any physical damage heavy encounter.

If you like to have simplified rotations where you can focus more on mechanics and/or the ability to cast situational heals and shields on self or allies, PLD is the tank for you.

Warrior: Your "offensive tank" and can be considered the hardest to mitigate with mechanically. It is not lacking in any department and has the best self-healing but it exists to offset slightly weaker received overall healing. WAR has a healthy mix of increasing its max HP and straight damage intake reduction. WAR will show you big numbers and fat HP. WAR does the most DPS between the three tanks. Small gap between its MT and OT DPS, specially if you "stance dance". WAR has "Wrath" and "Abandon" as an additional scarce resource which they utilize for additional mitigation and/or DPS. WAR is preferred as OT but can do very well as MT under any environment.

If you like to stance dance and count your stacked buffs based on situation, and/or you like to dish out a lot of damage while taking as much in return (you like big numbers), you can't go wrong with WAR.

Dark Knight: Considered by many to be the "magic tank". DRK has a slight advantage in magical environments due to a potent and short CD that reduces magic damage, but kind of lacking in physical damage mitigation. Because of that, DRK is the preferred MT of any magical damage heavy encounter. DRK does good DPS and is hardly behind WAR. Has the smallest gap between its MT and OT DPS. DRK relies heavily on its MP to increase its DPS and boost two of its defensive CDs. DRK has the least utility options of the three tanks. DRK has glaring TP issues.

If you like situational combos instead of fixed rotations, and like to manage your resources and CDs, or want a mix of damage mitigation and higher DPS, look no further than DRK.

EDIT: A lot of content is very DRK friendly since it is the newest tank. But this will probably change in the future. /edit

Personally I think DRK and WAR are more "technical" while PLD is simplified. All three tanks are very good.

Great, thanks!

Unfortunately I cannot give DRK a try until I complete the main story at lv 50. I've enjoyed the game so much that I picked up Heavensward so I'll have it waiting when I do.

I'll have to try them both out it seems.

It's also nice to know that this company does well at balancing, that's reassuring.

I'll most likely start with Paladin since you mentioned the skills Gladiator has that are useful for tanking.

PLD is the safer route when you want to LEARN the basics of tanking in THIS game. (then if you like pld you can actually take it further than just the basics).

War is the less safe route as it forces you to learn timing of cooldowns and inner beast for big hits.

THat said either or is a good choice :). Though PLD is more mandatory for awareness (specially on war when you use raw intution).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Dancing Edge is a DPS loss for them, so a WAR helps NIN more than a PLD or a DRK.

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Right but besides the moar dps thing?

My point is: There's always going to be an optimal setup for dps, damage mitigation etc. (and it may include war in it) but there are also a ton of viable setups that get the job done just as well. Hell, I was doing some Alex Savage 1 research today and I saw a clear vid on youtube with Paladin/Dark Whm/Sch Mnk/Drg/Brd/Blm. No warrior/ninja for the slashing so non-optimal dps. If that's not proof enough that the other classes and team compositions aren't leagues behind the almighty warrior setup then idk what is!

So, in closing, Paladin doesn't need any major tweaks IMO but some QoL adjustments? Sure—why not?

Can we end this thread now? lolololol jk MOAR FLAME I LOVE READING THE FORUMS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phrost

Great, thanks!

Unfortunately I cannot give DRK a try until I complete the main story at lv 50. I've enjoyed the game so much that I picked up Heavensward so I'll have it waiting when I do.

I'll have to try them both out it seems.

It's also nice to know that this company does well at balancing, that's reassuring.

I'll most likely start with Paladin since you mentioned the skills Gladiator has that are useful for tanking.

---

30 to 40 can be rough since you dont get your tank stance till 40, but all the dps got good abilities. Just stick with it. It gets better lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phrost

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior.

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Whichever tank you choose, take gladiator to 22 for provoke, for true end game to 34 for awareness

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

If you like situational combos instead of fixed rotations, and like to manage your resources and CDs, or want a mix of damage mitigation and higher DPS, look no further than DRK.

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Now that DRK mana "bug" has been fixed it actually took away that resource management, burn some MP at the beginning then siphon spam coupled with either BW or BP untill you have mana again and burn it again(unless you need to save it for CD's)and thats pretty much it. TP requires more management now than mana for DRK's as they have no real TP regen skill.

Its still pretty fun job thanks to all those oGCD skills it has, so i will get it maxed soon so i can swap between PLD and DRK depending on fight.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

snip

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Did you seriously just compare PLD vs. WAR / DRK to BRD / MCH vs. dedicated DPS classes?

BRD and MCH bring unique and necessary support because that's what they are -- a support DPS class. If they reclassify PLD as a support tank role and gave PLD unique, irreplaceable and mandatory raid support at the cost of a marginal amount of individual DPS, that would be fine, too. That would be an actual trade-off rather than the current non-trade-off.

As for WARs being independent, anyone you ask will say the same thing. They are by far the most well rounded and complete tank. Are you really going to argue this point?

If PLDs are to push the type of DPS that people assume they're pushing, it's in Sword Oath. All tanks have the same effective healing returns in DPS stance.

Top progression groups made those changes because it was higher overall raid DPS with no meaningful losses. Healing was still a non-issue despite dropping PLDs, SCHs were playing exactly the same despite DRK MT, and because they were getting the int debuff from DRK, MNK was irrelevant compared to the additional DPS and utility NIN brings. That comp was strictly better in balance terms. In other words, there was a real imbalance. Results speak for themselves. I guess since those results and facts don't agree with you, we should ignore them.

If you're going to make the argument that balance doesn't matter at a lower level, then balance changes shouldn't effect you either. After all, your static can just adjust. It's curious that you still fight tooth and claw against the obvious issues PLD has.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Snip.

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Yes, I compared the support-defensive tank to the other tanks with the support-DPS classes to the other "dedicated" DPS classes.

Support classes are an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS classes and are by no means necessary for any fight. Their buffs help but are by no means necessary. Healers should never need ballad unless people keep dying and EVERY DPS class has Invigorate. You can 100% clear all content without BRD/MCH. Also ALL classes bring at least 2 raid-wide beneficial support abilities. Battle Litany, Trick Attack and Mantra say hi. Apocastasis, Eye 4 Eye and Resurrection also say hi.

Guess what? Should we call DRG "independent"? It doesn't need another class to buff its damage at all. Same is for MNK and NIN. If you want to call WAR "independent" because it brings its own slashing debuff, I'll be as stubborn and stupid and say PLD is independent because it doesn't need a healer to cast Stoneskin and Protect. PLD is also independent because it doesn't need another class to provide RoH.

Also I don't get why everyone is getting their panties in a twist, WAR ALWAYS had the slashing debuff... Someone had to have it. PLD never had it. It's not like Heavensward came out and removed the slashing from PLD and gave it to WAR. It added another class (DRK) that needs it but doesn't have it. Out 4 classes, 2 provide the slashing debuff. I do not see it as imbalance. What do you want? Have PLD and DRK also provide the slashing debuff? PLD and DRK already have their "niche" in physical and magical fights, twelve forbid WAR has its own "thing"? I say "just deal with it".

In truth, no class is "independent". ALL three tanks WILL die without a healer. All DPS classes cannot do their max DPS without a tank. Tanks and healers will not meet enrage timers without DPS. No one is truly independent. 1 buff doesn't make a class superior to the rest.

As I said in my post, stop comparing your average static to world first groups that push every inch of DPS to meet checks they aren't supposed to. Also as I said, those groups did not try WAR MT and PLD OT which I assure you are more total raid DPS than DRK MT WAR OT. They dropped MNK which had the INT down for the NIN which brought Trick Attack and is already higher DPS than MNK. They try to squeeze every point of raid DPS because they are doing the content they are vastly undergeared for. You probably will have 5 to 10 ilvs higher on average on your first clear than they were.

I will not go in circles and repeat points that the last 27 pages have been full of, as long as PLDs have shields, easier healing and CDs, and HG, they never should and never will do the DPS of the other tanks. There is no imbalance in this. #Dealwithit.

... hallowed ground is only thing that makes pld better than dark in defense. any healer class will have same difficulty healing a dark they they would have healing a pld. why I never complained about war is cause they are harder to heal so they are balanced really.

The issue is dark and pld dps difference yet they have basically same cds and no on pld parry proc rate is super lower cause of shield. so darks parry more.

my solution remove plds Shelton and give us another aoe like the one ilbrand uses in cut scene crescent slash or something. course the radious would be super close and done within one mobs distance around you skipping the rear open part or the radius. why should plds get a move like this? circle of scorn cant be used at will like warriors over power its ogcd. even if you kept potency 100 like cos would still add a few numbers making balance.

Shelton is such a gimmick if you play at say 40ms and under then you can time it right to block a buster but 150ms+ you will most likely block auto attack and take buster hit so make sure to save gcds prior to relying on Shelton.

This is the first MMO I've played where there's expectations for a tank to deal high DPS. It's wacky. Other MMOs have multi-specializations that allow a different set of skills for one class that wants to tank/DPS/heal. This one? Nah, you output DPs while being a tank. It's wacky. It's anarchy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

snip

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Some imbalances translate across all levels of play. The reason is because some imbalances scale down proportionately with skill.

When you look at imbalances in fighting games, RTS games, and, yes, other MMORPGs, you will see a lot of situations where an imbalance at the highest level translates to lower level play.

Like I said earlier, an exceptionally skilled DRK will output exceptional DPS and sufficient survivability while a good DRK will output good DPS and sufficient survivability. An exceptionally skilled PLD will output exceptional DPS and sufficient survivability while a good PLD will also scale down proportionately. Outside of cases where there is a real difference in learning curve that gates access to differing levels of skill, this is generally true. A good PLD is not going to magically out DPS a good DRK.

So when you look at lesser statics, the same issues exist, just on a different scale. Gear helps make up for that gap in player skill but it doesn't make up for that gap in job balance unless one class scales better with gear than another. Eventually, the gear will be enough to carry players past content but that still says nothing of job balance. We'll just be having this same discussion the next raid cycle if the meta doesn't change. Regardless of which class is screwed the next cycle, shouldn't the goal be to balance so that no class is screwed?

Since ASTs are in a similar position but seemingly without this strange territorial defensiveness from their co-healers, let's look at their situation. Everyone with any ounce of sense will say that while AST can work, there are some obvious issues with balance. On the other hand, people deny clear facts and truth when judging PLD and it's puzzling.

Why this keeps going in circles is because the few people against helping out PLD fail to address the key issues in a meaningful way.

Given equal terms, PLD DPS will always be lower than DRK and WAR.

Given equal terms, PLD mitigation and survivability will not always be higher than DRK and WAR.

The current tanking meta is to meet an eHP threshold and then go full DPS thereafter. So, even if PLD has a situational eHP advantage, it's irrelevant because it's above the eHP threshold. As seen in live environments, it's not like the other tanks require drastically different healing while bringing more DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Snip.

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First of all, PLD is no effing way anywhere near where AST is. AST is screwed hard with a very thorny cactus.

The problem is you are so fixated on PLD's DPS as a MT. We have three tanks, if PLD maintained the same DPS as the other two tanks while keeping its mitigation and safety as is, PLD will simply be the only MT of choice. DRK will be in AST's spot since WAR is the winner OT since everyone gets a hard on at night over WAR's slashing debuff and infinite TP.

If PLD's eHP advantage is "irrelevant" in any single fight, have the PLD OT, you lose what? 70 DPS compared to WAR? WAR MT gains 150~300 DPS over PLD MT. Overall Raid DPS increase of 80~230 DPS. Problem solved. WAR MT / PLD OT even has a higher raid DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT, Just sayin'.

PLD is nowhere near a bad spot. We have three tanks, we have to put them in order, EACH has to shine in a different aspect. If one shines somewhere, the other two will be sub-optimal to it. So the other two need to shine elsewhere, making the one that shined in a different place be sub-optimal in the first scenario. As long as there is a "best", there will be a "worst". You have to deal with it. That is how balance works. If what you are asking for is to have all tanks mitigate the same and do the same DPS, then what you are asking for is homogenization, not balance.

In ANY scanario (Physical, magical or mixed), PLD's mitigation is more-or-less on-par to WAR.

In EVERY scanario, WAR receives less effective healing than PLD.

PLD is NOT shafted in that it takes high magical damage. It mitigates magical damage JUST FINE. Same as WAR.

There are two scenarios where one of the two other tanks will do better, mitigation wise, than PLD:

1- Magical environment: DRK has more options and can increase its eHP at least 15% more than PLD could with the same CD structure. This is the only scenario DRK is better than PLD or WAR. PLD and WAR are not lacking in this environment, DRK is just "better". Magical fights existed in 2.x and did not prevent PLDs from MTing, look at T2, Leviathan ex and Ramuh ex (this one ignores all of PLD's CDs and Shield Oath).

2- Frequent tank busters (Less than 50s frequency): WAR, with its Inner Beast alone, will out-mitigate either PLD or DRK. But ANY combination of tanks can overcome this with tank swapping. So far frequent tank busters have been in T2, T5, T6 and Titan Ex. PLD successfully solo tanked all of these. WAR is just "better" at solo tanking them.

So in any scenario other than the two above, you should have a PLD MT because it plainly "works" better. In any scenario where another tank is better than PLD, just step down from your high horse and accept the inferior OT spot. Problem solved. Your DPS is a non-issue. You don't have to change to DRK, you won't get kicked out of your group.

This is very balanced. It is actually as balanced as it can get. Quality of life changes are acceptable like maybe TP fixes for non-WAR tanks. But NOTHING needs to be done about their main functions as MT or OT mitigation or DPS wise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

The problem is you are so fixated on PLD's DPS as a MT.

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The problem is that this WHOLE community is fixated on DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR MT / PLD OT even has a higher raid DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT, Just sayin'.

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I really doubt that, now that WAR got a really strong offensive stance and that Determination doesn't affect auto-attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

We have three tanks, we have to put them in order, EACH has to shine in a different aspect.

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The problem is that doesn't "shine" anywhere. At best, it's a feeble light in mitigation over the other two tanks.

Make something matters other than pure own DPS and mitigation, that's where you can make other tanks shine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I really doubt that, now that WAR got a really strong offensive stance and that Determination doesn't affect auto-attacks.

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Determination STILL affects Auto-attacks. It affects them less.

PLD in Sword Oath does roughly 70 DPS less than WAR in Deliverance provided it gets TP and Slashing debuff. PLD OT doing 70 less DPS than WAR but WAR MT doing 150~300 DPS more than PLD MT is higher DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT.

PLD "shines" as the single safest tank. I say this for the hundredth time! (well not really, but yeah). Safety is what makes PLD better than WAR. Both tanks mitigate the same damage on busters, PLD does it far more safely.

This game only has three metrics for tanks: DPS, Mitigation, Utility. PLD is already at the top in two of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

PLD "shines" as the single safest tank. I say this for the hundredth time! (well not really, but yeah)

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And for the hundreth times (well not really, but yeah) the difference is so thin that it doesn't matter in the vast majority of real content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

This game only has three metrics for tanks: DPS, Mitigation, Utility. PLD is already at the top in two of them.

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What, Utility ? You mean like they have a GCD Stun were no fight requires stunning that often ? Or a Silence that became useless long time ago ? Or Divine Veil, that pales in comparison to Storm's Path when it comes to mitigate raid damage (even if you add Rage Of Halone on top of that, since it only works on physical damage) ? Or that, without Storm's Eye, you bring nothing to increase the already good DPS of NINs and the so important DPS of all tanks ?

I think you mispelled WAR when saying one tank is a the top of two metrics.

AND, disregarding the fact that PLD is at the top of mitigation ONLY for physical fights, which tend to be rare since HW. I'd like you to show me how wonderful are Bulwark and Sheltron, or even the passive mitigation of Block, for tanking the last boss of the Vault, the last boss or Facility or even the Manipulator...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And for the hundreth times (well not really, but yeah) the difference is so thin that it doesn't matter in the vast majority of real content.

What, Utility ? You mean like they have a GCD Stun were no fight requires stunning that often ? Or a Silence that became useless long time ago ? Or Divine Veil, that pales in comparison to Storm's Path when it comes to mitigate raid damage (even if you add Rage Of Halone on top of that, since it only works on physical damage) ? Or that, without Storm's Eye, you bring nothing to increase the already good DPS of NINs and the so important DPS of all tanks ?

I think you mispelled WAR when saying one tank is a the top of two metrics.

AND, disregarding the fact that PLD is at the top of mitigation ONLY for physical fights, which tend to be rare since HW. I'd like you to show me how wonderful are Bulwark and Sheltron, or even the passive mitigation of Block, for tanking the last boss of the Vault, the last boss or Facility or even the Manipulator...

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Dude, did you read my whole post?

PLD's mitigation in magical fights is REALLY GOOD. DRK is just "better". It's not like PLD will die in a magical fight whereas a DRK wouldn't. DRK has 1 CD for magical damage that a PLD doesn't have. If DRK can manage a CD rotation for a fight, PLD will manage a similar CD rotation fo that fight just as easily.

Safety is HUGE. There is a reason you don't see WAR MTs running rampant but you still see PLD MTs. If you refuse to see that then you just selectively choose to ignore facts. In any combination containing PLD, PLD is usually the MT.

Again, Storm's Eye is not unique to WAR. NIN has it too. NIN loses about 50~70 DPS if it applies its own DE. Considering NIN does ~1300 DPS, that's not even 5%.

Also again, Storm's Path is not the holy grail of all utility as you make it. 90% of the time a good WAR wouldn't apply it. If it is strictly up 100% of the fight then: 1- WAR is not using BB at all, doing 50~70 (5~7%) less DPS than it should (similar to DPS lost by NIN). Also no triple Fell Cleaves are happening since it's impossible to keep SP and SE without letting one drop if you triple FC. 2- WAR keeps BB but can't use SE causing a 10% DPS loss on EVERY CLASS that uses slashing debuff. If a party is without NIN: WAR loses ~100 DPS, DRK loses ~100 DPS and PLD loses ~90 DPS.

Most of the "massive" AoE happens after jumps, Divine Veil can still work better than WAR's already-fallen-off, if it was even applied in the first place, Storm Path. Also on any single attack, unless the attack literally 1-shots you, a 10% layer of HP is higher mitigation than pure 10% reduced damage.

PLD has Clemency, a GREAT utility that PLD can get the full potential of as an OT.

PLD has Stoneskin, a GREAT utility that PLD can get the full potential of as a MT or OT.

PLD has Cover, gimmicky but has great uses and saved many raids in the past. Will probably still see great uses in the future.

PLD can cast Protect on any revived member instead of healers.

PLD can pop Convalescence and healers can AoE heal the raid and ignore single healing the PLD and it'd still be enough.

Stop over-dramatizing WAR's "utility".. It's overrated.

For the entirety of 2.x, PLD was the preferred tank even though WAR mitigated better, do you know why? Well, nothing has changed. PLD is still safer than WAR, PLD still has the better HG, PLD still is easier to heal, PLD still has more utility.

People wouldn't have even cared about PLD DPS if the new tank option "DRK" didn't make an appearance. But guess what? DRK is POOP in mitigation and safety compared to PLD. And no, Dark Mind doesn't justify DRK's mitigation. Living Dead is one of the worst CDs to ever make an appearance in FFXIV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

For the entirety of 2.x, PLD was the preferred tank even though WAR mitigated better, do you know why?

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Because people, like you, kept saying that PLD is absolutely better, probably because they never overcame how bad WAR was in 2.0.
It's exactly the same as people claiming time and time again that DRG is bad, a stigma that even comes from a totally different game.

It's just Urban Legends, and they tend to die hard.

I have played with several WAR MT in almost every content of 2.x, and it was a breeze each time.
In fact, I was happy to step out of MT role, because WAR MT/PLD OT brings more DPS than PLD MT/WAR OT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Snip.

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I swear you do not read my entire posts.

As a WAR main for the entirety of 2.x, I main tanked ALL my progression raids except T8 and 9. And I have a few Phoenix server firsts and seconds I can claim including T12 and 13. So you claiming that "people like me" kept saying PLD is absolutely better is utter BS. On the contrary, I advocate WAR main tanking because I know how strong it is. Also if you actually read my posts, I kept saying that if PLD's eHP advantage isn't cutting it for you, let the PLD OT and have the WAR MT. You end up with more DPS without changing your raid setup. AND you gain more utility. Stop putting words ignorantly into my mouth.

But you playing with "several" WAR MT in farm content is not the same as "blindly progressed raids" with a WAR MT. PLD has been, and always will be, the safer option. Every time I talk mitigation, I talked "Safety", you just choose to ignore that and claim I said PLD is "better". It is like how you stupidly say "it makes a run faster, not better".

DRG's stigma of being bad was because DRGs had long animation locks on their jumps and kept dying to AoEs in THIS GAME. Yes them sucking in FFXI didn't help but it was true that they were no better in this game until 2.45. Do not ignore that DRG was the only class that brought absolutely no raid utility. And it was lowest DPS in 2.0 (BRD did more DPS then) and remained lower than MNK and NIN until 2.45. Then NIN was slightly nerfed and DRG was buffed to have the same DPS finally in 2.45. DRG is still "the cool looking" class (sharing this spot with DRK now) that attracts the bads.

"Legends" are often based on some form of truth.

EDIT: Since I am getting tired of this thread's stupidity and in an effort to let this thread die, this will be my last post in it. Take my posts with a grain of salt. In the end none of our opinions matter as SE will collect actual data and based on that buff/nerf classes. But as things are, PLD will not be getting a buff without getting hit in its safety. Not to mention videos and parses were posted to show how PLD is not far behind WAR in DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

So you claiming that "people like me" kept saying PLD is absolutely better is utter BS.

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So the "On the three metric that matters, PLD come out on top for two" is not you saying that PLD is better ?
Maybe you should reread your posts, then...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Also if you actually read my posts, I kept saying that if PLD's eHP advantage isn't cutting it for you, let the PLD OT and have the WAR MT. You end up with more DPS without changing your raid setup. AND you gain more utility.

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Yes, and each time, I'm saying that you can have even more DPS by simply ditching the PLD. And, at best, you end up with the exact same utility as the other way round...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

PLD has been, and always will be, the safer option. Every time I talk mitigation, I talked "Safety", you just choose to ignore that and claim I said PLD is "better".

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You brought up the three metrics. On one of them PLD is slighty above (For physical fights only) and on the other two, it's generally weaker (No, Storm's path is not something you can brush out saying it's overrated, since it's a permanent 10% damage reduction for everyone...).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

DRG's stigma of being bad was because DRGs had long animation locks on their jumps and kept dying to AoEs in THIS GAME.

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So the job is bad because some players don't know how to dodge AoE ?
I wonder why this stigma didn't spread to every job, because they're all - well not PLD - more difficult to play properly than DRG, so bad players would suck really bad.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Do not ignore that DRG was the only class that brought absolutely no raid utility. And it was lowest DPS in 2.0 (BRD did more DPS then) and remained lower than MNK and NIN until 2.45

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"lolDRG" is not about them being lesser DPS, it's about them constantly tanking the floor or being the first to die...this stigma was so widespread that even SE lampshaded it in their 16-bit Titan fight...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

"Legends" are often based on some form of truth.

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No, legends are often based on some form of ignorance, misunderstanding or misconception...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Not to mention videos and parses were posted to show how PLD is not far behind WAR in DPS.

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Yep, videos were shown where a PLD (or DRK), with the help of a NIN for the slashing debuff and a BRD/MCH for the TP refresh, was not far behind a WAR...on its own...for a 5 minute parse.
Wonderful comparison !

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, Storm's path is not something you can brush out saying it's overrated, since it's a permanent 10% damage reduction for everyone...

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Storm path is not permanent without some real tradeoffs from the War -- and even then it may not be up for big aoe, as was mentionned before. Who is misleading now ? Seriously you can't say that and expect to be taken seriously. As a matter of fact, if you are MT as War with no nin in the party, you are going to have very, very, very few paths. As an OT, you can keep it up most of the time (not all the time) at a non-negligible cost to your dps.

I'm sorry, you really are discrediting any value there may be in your arguments by refusing so much any objectivity in what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

ok so my pld ilevel 186 bairly does 815dps in sword oath on dummy 200 blade
dark same ilevel like gear 180 wep 950+
war same ilevel gear again with 180 wep 1050+

So plds need to be fixed majorly because this is a bad joke and my rotations are optimized before any one says anything like git gud.

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PLD have the best anti-tank buster CDs, and you're whining because the warriors do more dmg? WHAT?!...

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Originally Posted by Casper

As a matter of fact, if you are MT as War with no nin in the party, you are going to have very, very, very few paths. As an OT, you can keep it up most of the time (not all the time) at a non-negligible cost to your dps.

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God, you got me ! If only there was a way to have two WAR in the same party and still doing more DPS than every other tank pairing...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

God, you got me ! If only there was a way to have two WAR in the same party and still doing more DPS than every other tank pairing...

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Got, you got me ! You only have to sacrifice all the utility of Pld, or the one of Drk, reprisal, Str debuff, have a lower LB building, but all that doesn't matter cause War is so OP ! That's why everyone is running double war in their group for hardcore progression ! Oh wait...

Seriously man with each post you write you sound more and more ridiculous. Are you trolling at this point or is this REALLY the extant of your point ? Cause it just sound like you are butthurt for no reason -- everyone provides valid arguments and you just answer with nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Casper

Storm path is not permanent without some real tradeoffs from the War -- and even then it may not be up for big aoe, as was mentionned before.

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If Path didn't yield a Wrath/Abandon stack && risked Maim falloff I'd agree - but it doesn't so I don't. The penalty you mention IMO exemplifies why the Path/Eye/Butcher GCD layout of WAR is one the best functioning GCD cores of any job (though I wish Fracture would be given a spot) - and exemplifies parallel class & job ability execution and synergy. The Pros/Cons of their WS priorities are a balance of Threat/DPS/Utility (and still feed Defiance/Deliverance either way you go). If you stay relative that penalty is far better than PLD's Clemency/Stoneskin which cost a GCD + half a second + MP cost + combo interruption for funzies.

The AoE thing stays relative too; INT/STR Down, Rend Weapon, Rend Mind, Disable, Reprisal, etc all share that drawback.

Edit: Something I consider too:

Reprisal is a proactive Debuff gated behind a reactive Weaponskill.

Clemency is a reactive spell gated behind for being GCD with a 3 second cast time where as Divine Veil - a proactive CD - is oGCD, ie instant - but gated behind a heal for trigger.