7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Honestly continuing to play this I would at this point even just take splitting the potency from Nastrond in half and letting us press it twice. Just give me a little more button pressing, as a treat.

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Something I noticed with myself as well. We lowered our standards in the face of SEs silence in this, which is... not great.

3 Nastronds back! o/

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Originally Posted by Schan

Something I noticed with myself as well. We lowered our standards in the face of SEs silence in this, which is... not great.

3 Nastronds back! o/

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We're all in the bargaining phase of mourning the slow disassembly of our job.

I agree, Give me back my 3 stacks of Nastrond!

Take all our nastronds and give us 3 stardivers wuehaheuwhauehauhaheuahuah

Can't double weave a Stardriver so in a way that would be fixing the 'too many weaves' issue... ;)

I think the next realistic changes are going to be: either removal of life surge or rework into a pure defensive, and a change of the duration of mirage dive ready so that it is no longer possible to do double mirage dive rotations.

I'd also like to see them change true thrust into raiden thrust 100% of the time. It effectively behaves that way after the opening attack and it would give us our first WWT much sooner. Raiden thrust is a really cool animation, while true thrust is a literal level 1 ARR animation. To me it's not a fun mechanic only having access to raiden thrust and scales mid combo, but to each their own.

Another cool change they could do is make it so that high jump and mirage dive are upgraded to different abilities during LotD, with red animations and higher potencies to match nastrond. Maybe instead of removing double mirage dive they could just bake it into the job in a way that flows naturally. Something like: Using mirage dive during LotD resets the cooldown on high jump and grants access to upgraded high jump and mirage dive. This also ties into the theme of wyrmwind thrust being red and blue, since the first mirage dive would be blue and the second would be red. Kinda like Geirskogul and Nastrond. So our burst sequence oGCDs would be High Jump > Geirskogul > Mirage Dive > High Jump 2.0 > Mirage Dive 2.0 > Nastrond > Stardiver > Starcross > Dragonfire Dive > Rise of the Dragon > Wyrmwind Thrust.

It was necessary to prune the uses of nastrond, and it will likely be necessary to prune the use of life surge in burst going forward. Life surge is a boring ability to begin with, and using nastrond multiple times just makes it feel less impactful.

Guys, I swapped to Samurai. I'm having fun. Call me when Dragoon is fun again.

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Originally Posted by Reldhir

Take all our nastronds and give us 3 stardivers wuehaheuwhauehauhaheuahuah

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This might be the scariest suggestion I've heard! It would certainly make the buff windows tighter >.>

I thought the release of new expansions would always make jobs more complex, as the level cap increases by 10 and everyone gets new skills. It seems that time is long gone from this game. Every job is eventually going through the same process. VPR lasted like what, 2 weeks?

Yoshi-P himself said MMO players like feeling more powerful when they level up, but current job design feels completely disconnected to this statement.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

I thought the release of new expansions would always make jobs more complex, as the level cap increases by 10 and everyone gets new skills. It seems that time is long gone from this game. Every job is eventually going through the same process. VPR lasted like what, 2 weeks?

Yoshi-P himself said MMO players like feeling more powerful when they level up, but current job design feels completely disconnected to this statement.

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That's not feasible game design for most people. It's inevitable that there will be a sizeable amount of people complaining, but the vast majority will want the game to taper out in busyness because it becomes unmanageable game design. If they continued to add complexity and busyness to the job design, encounter design would have to be completely watered down as a result.

Pretty much have to replace abilities and rework from now on, or prune and make new additions. Like taking out 2 nastrond and in the future life surge gives them room to add in my suggestion of high jump/mirage dive resetting cooldown during LotD and having upgraded versions. This would mean more oGCD variety and more jumping during our burst windows without bloating the input busyness.

At the end of the day, since people have this unrealistic expectation of jobs becoming increasingly complex every single expansion, they are going to end up disappointed. It's important to have realistic expectations if you want to avoid disappointment. Otherwise your future with this game is going to be pretty dour.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

That's not feasible game design for most people. It's inevitable that there will be a sizeable amount of people complaining, but the vast majority will want the game to taper out in busyness because it becomes unmanageable game design. If they continued to add complexity and busyness to the job design, encounter design would have to be completely watered down as a result.

Pretty much have to replace abilities and rework from now on, or prune and make new additions. Like taking out 2 nastrond and in the future life surge gives them room to add in my suggestion of high jump/mirage dive resetting cooldown during LotD and having upgraded versions. This would mean more oGCD variety and more jumping during our burst windows without bloating the input busyness.

At the end of the day, since people have this unrealistic expectation of jobs becoming increasingly complex every single expansion, they are going to end up disappointed. It's important to have realistic expectations if you want to avoid disappointment. Otherwise your future with this game is going to be pretty dour.

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I don't even want it to get more and more complex, I just don't want it getting more and more simplified. Going into EW from ShB the job got simpler, between the 2 minute meta and the removal of Mirage Dives from Spineshatter, it was very straightforward to line up Life windows with buffs, and all they really added was charges that forced you to hold spineshatter for 2mins and Wyrmwind, which doesn't require a ton of thought. Then in DT they remove Mirage Dive's interaction entirely, give us basically the same number of buttons to press meaning there is no added complexity, and now they decide it's still not enough even though this was already the simplest the job had been since the Stormblood? And again to the point of the original post, we're all sitting here talking about level 100 when playing the job in any content below level 90 is a total snoozefest after this change. You run out of buttons after 3 GCDs at 70. You run out of buttons after 4 GCDs at 80. At 90 you can get away with only doing one double-weave in your entire burst and still fit everything in. And so much of the game's content is stuff that isn't at level 100, to leave jobs in such a dull state for all that content is a serious oversight from the devs.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

I don't even want it to get more and more complex, I just don't want it getting more and more simplified. Going into EW from ShB the job got simpler, between the 2 minute meta and the removal of Mirage Dives from Spineshatter, it was very straightforward to line up Life windows with buffs, and all they really added was charges that forced you to hold spineshatter for 2mins and Wyrmwind, which doesn't require a ton of thought. Then in DT they remove Mirage Dive's interaction entirely, give us basically the same number of buttons to press meaning there is no added complexity, and now they decide it's still not enough even though this was already the simplest the job had been since the Stormblood? And again to the point of the original post, we're all sitting here talking about level 100 when playing the job in any content below level 90 is a total snoozefest after this change. You run out of buttons after 3 GCDs at 70. You run out of buttons after 4 GCDs at 80. At 90 you can get away with only doing one double-weave in your entire burst and still fit everything in. And so much of the game's content is stuff that isn't at level 100, to leave jobs in such a dull state for all that content is a serious oversight from the devs.

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Everything you're saying is extremely subjective though, you have to understand this right? You never run out of buttons during combat. The rotation keeps going until the boss dies.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Everything you're saying is extremely subjective though, you have to understand this right? You never run out of buttons during combat. The rotation keeps going until the boss dies.

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It isn't though. In terms of buttons, you should realize by this point considering how much I personally have hammered this point in directly to you, that I am talking about OGCDs. And yes, you do run out of OGCDs to press during a burst window. With EW and initial DT DRG that tended to only happen right at the end of the buff timer, but it did happen, and now with fewer buttons it happens faster, and as you get into lower and lower levels that happens faster and faster.

And complexity may not be exactly measurable, but it's hardly subjective. Having the exact amount of a resource that guarantees that every time buffs come off cooldown you willbe able to do your additional skills *is* less complicated than having too much or too little and needing to adjust to those circumstances to place those additional skills under as many buff windows as possible, and there is no person who will dispute that. And both of those are more complex than there not being a resource to manage, and those additional skills being accessed by pressing a button that has the exact same cooldown timer as the buffs you would be trying to align with, which again, no serious person would dispute. You can argue that Life Surge charges and Wyrmwind do add some complexity, but with Wyrmwind the entire thought process is "oh, my buffs will be back before I get another scale, let me hold this for a couple more seconds," which is not long-term planning, and with Life Surge it just amounts to press it twice under the stronger buffs and once under the weaker ones. Now, maybe some people will actually find that more complicated than needing to manage Gaze stacks to line up LotD and buffs, but I'd be shocked if that was a significant number of people.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

And complexity may not be exactly measurable, but it's hardly subjective.

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To add to that, it is also an objective fact that classes have become more and more simplistic over the years instead of becoming more complex.

I think this was a deliberate move by the developers because they wanted to make the fights themselves the interesting parts of the gameplay instead of the rotations, but I could be misremembering that.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

To add to that, it is also an objective fact that classes have become more and more simplistic over the years instead of becoming more complex.

I think this was a deliberate move by the developers because they wanted to make the fights themselves the interesting parts of the gameplay instead of the rotations, but I could be misremembering that.

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So there are two parts to this. The first is a pre-Dawntrail interview about job homogenization, where Yoshida acknowledged that it's a problem, but stated that there has also been a tendency to develop battle content that is too safe in recent years. So what he said in that interview was that for Dawntrail in particular since they didn't want to change everything all at once and make it feel like a completely different game, that the team had decided to first focus on making more interesting and experimental battle content, and that significant changes to make jobs feel more unique would likely be more of an 8.0 thing.

The other is I believe a much older interview, which I wasn't actually able to find but did want to bring up because I remember it being discussed. In that interview or whatever it was, it was stated that the overall goal from expansion to expansion is to in most cases keep jobs at roughly the same level of complexity, particularly after the devs saw the issues that were caused by how complex jobs were to play in Heavensward. There was an initial scaling back from that in Stormblood (at least in their eyes, personally I do think at least a few jobs got more complex going into Stormblood and even Shadowbringers) and from there they wanted to keep things the same so players wouldn't feel overwhelmed. At least that's how I remember that question being answered, but again I wasn't able to find that interview, so there is a chance I'm not remembering things perfectly.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

It isn't though.

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It is though, what you enjoy about dragoon is subjective to your preferences. Obviously you will run out of oGCDs in a burst window, that's why it's called a window. You want more activity in a burst window than I do, and that's fine. You like the game different than me. It's subjective.

It's pointless to discuss, it's like arguing about music preferences. It's hard to even engage with you because all you're doing is yapping about what you like and I can't relate on top of it being subjective to your own taste entirely. You are trying to argue preference. It's one of the weirdest things people do. I couldn't care less about what you like. I am just explaining why I like the changes, it's not an invitation to argue nor is it an argument to begin with. It doesn't make you smarter, it doesn't make me smarter. I just like the game to play differently than you do. I don't even care about why you enjoy the game or that you are disappointed. It's not your game, and you don't share the vision the developers do for the game. Maybe make your own game, or continue to throw a fit over something others are celebrating. They can't appease everyone and it's only a game. It's meant to be fun. If you want complexity, get into math or science or something meaningful. It's literally just a video game. They shouldn't be wasting people's mental capacity on something like complex rotations. Use your brain to make the world a better place, not to parse 99.

That and SSD! Why take that away!? Literally the fun of DRG is gone now. Even if it was a non damage traversal I would be happy with that instead of yet another stupid dash.. and I do not care about the dragon shape that pops up. Feels like a cop out to me. The whole fun of dragoon was the jumping around and they stripped that out completely..

Reading through this thread since I last replied, it really is just funny to read cause we have someone pretending they have a clear idea on how to play a job at the current max level when they have never ATTEMPTED to run content or anything with it at Lv100, and everyone else simply want this job to be actually *fun* to play.

Objectively speaking, this job is super unfun to play after the patch had dropped, and no amount of damage modifiers is going to make the job better If the entire nature of the job isn't there. Do you want a maiming job that is easy to learn and also have access to the same gear sets? its called Reaper, and was introduced in the last expansion. You should give it a try if you want a brain dead maiming job than ask for the other one to be nerfed.

Simply put, the forums are the most likely place for devs to see the feedback for any change, and the fact of the matter is: There is absolutely no one in favor of this change, and we are simply doing what we are supposed to do: giving FEEDBACK
There is absolutely no preference to this: the job plays worse and everyone wants to see it be better.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Use your brain to make the world a better place, not to parse 99.

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You should also read and take up your own advice rather than constantly yap here in the forums, every single day, about how so many people like this change when its just you arguing with most people here about how they should consume product and never ask questions, rather than give feedback on this change.

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Originally Posted by iiOmarSP

Objectively speaking, this job is super unfun to play after the patch had dropped

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Fun itself is a subjective concept. I don't want to play reaper lol, I like the job fantasy of dragoon and the animations. You just like mashing lots of buttons fast. Since you're suggesting me to play another job for gameplay, this means you must have no attachment to the fantasy of dragoon. So just play a different job yourself. Dragoon has always been one of the simpler melee jobs in the game. Play ninja, play samurai, play something else yourself.

It's okay to give feedback, just recognize that you're stating subjective positions and don't try to argue with other people for expressing their subjective opinions.

There's no need to try to struggle for an echo chamber, it's not happening. State your case and be confident in it, stop yammering about the validity of differing opinions.

I get that you feel a certain way, speak for yourself.

The forums being a place for feedback statement goes both ways. I have never tried to invalidate your opinions or perspective, I just say that I like the way the game has changed and you decide that's a reason to argue. I explain why I like it, and you try to silence my perspective for what? Because you want an echo chamber. It's not happening lol. Get over it and move on.

Even if the majority of people were celebrating the changes and there was only a minority of people going against them, I wouldn't try to censor the opinions of the people who dislike them. It's okay to express your feedback. Go ahead with it. Stop crying over other people enjoying change.

You're doing the same as the people you're criticizing, though. You think it's objective that these questions are subjective. It's not objective. They already gave you the arguments as to why you are wrong, yet you ignored them. It's fine. Just know you're not doing any different.

Not only are they objective, it's something the developers usually only realize when it's too late. Pushing away long-time MMO players is never a good decision.

They are making the game unfun, slowly removing all of the things the old school players liked. And replacing it with predictable, easy and less creative content. Job design is only the tip of the iceberg. While fun is subjective, what matters to the developers is the best decision for the game.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

You're doing the same as the people you're criticizing, though. You think it's objective that these questions are subjective. It's not objective. They already gave you the arguments as to why you are wrong, yet you ignored them. It's fine. Just know you're not doing any different.

Not only are they objective, it's something the developers usually only realize when it's too late. Pushing away long-time MMO players is never a good decision.

They are making the game unfun, slowly removing all of the things the old school players liked. And replacing it with predictable, easy and less creative content. Job design is only the tip of the iceberg. While fun is subjective, what matters to the developers is the best decision for the game.

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You can't just arbitrarily make subjective opinions objective rofl. Yes, I get that your feelings are real. They're still subject to your own preferences and opinions.

I've never done the same thing the people I am criticizing are doing though. You should read my language better. Why would I consider their opinions? It's not rocket science, I understand exactly where you are all coming from, I just don't see eye to eye and don't want what you want. I understand why the devs make the decisions they are making, and I appreciate them.

Everything else you say is just you pushing your own agenda, so what's the point in me as an individual taking it seriously? I don't want what you want, at the end of the day it's up to the devs, but as it is going, I support the direction the devs are pushing the game in.

If they go with what you want, that's fine. I will just unsubscribe and play something else. I'm easy come easy go. I think you should learn from me, if you want to be happy and make a difference in the game direction. Vote with your wallet.

Honestly though, I don't think they want the old school players around anymore. For several expansions all you have been doing is complaining and doomsaying about the direction of the game. Maybe they are trying to push this negative part of the community away. There are tons of people who are happy with the game and the way it is going. Maybe you're just not wanted here anymore. If you don't like what you're buying, stop buying it. Simple concept. If you're struggling with addiction, get help.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

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I have never once in this conversation come at you with anything subjective. You claimed that rotations were getting more and more complicated over time, that the game itself was getting more and more complicated over time, and that Dragoon was getting more and more busy over time. I demonstrated with examples why none of those things are true. What is subjective is our preferences. Yes, you have made clear you prefer the game being very simple, and I and everyone else in this thread have made clear that we prefer having at least some level of complexity. We're all allowed to have those preferences. But in service of defending your preferences you have constantly made objectively untrue claims about the game and about Dragoon. Also, you have absolutely tried to invalidate other people's opinions. Since you forgot, here are some examples of when you did that in both this and the other DRG threads.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I'm just glad most of you are never going to be involved in creating games.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Getting a bit contrived now aren't you?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

This thread has to be satire, or you just wanted to show off your character's glam during cool poses with your ultimate weapon.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

There are like 10-20 people trying to create an echo chamber of disapproval in this thread. Most people who are happy about the game spend their free time playing it, not whinging on the forums.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I agree with the devs, not the crybabies on the forums. Also no, I'm not going to make my own thread and let this one become an echo chamber of complaints. Sorry kid.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Nobody is crazy here, it's just weird that you think your perspective matters.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Alexa, play cry me a river by justin timberlake

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Not a no-life ffxiv tryhard like you, I got better things to do than sit around playing games all day crying on the forums about square pandering to people who don't treat the game like their career.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Fun itself is a subjective concept. I don't want to play reaper lol, I like the job fantasy of dragoon and the animations. You just like mashing lots of buttons fast. Since you're suggesting me to play another job for gameplay, this means you must have no attachment to the fantasy of dragoon. So just play a different job yourself. Dragoon has always been one of the simpler melee jobs in the game. Play ninja, play samurai, play something else yourself.

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Fun IS subjective yes, but at the same time: being miserable to play is also: a valid reason as to why people don't like it and therefore: Not fun to play.
I also play another Melee job, Ninja being my secondary, but I much prefer Dragoon due to its nature and aesthetics, being a busy job in BURST which is the absolute POINT.
And yes, I do have a attachment to its settings and fantasy aspects.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

It's okay to give feedback, just recognize that you're stating subjective positions and don't try to argue with other people for expressing their subjective opinions.
There's no need to try to struggle for an echo chamber, it's not happening. State your case and be confident in it, stop yammering about the validity of differing opinions.

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Which is exactly what everyone IS doing: they are Giving Feedback as to why they think this change is absolutely horrible, and while all of that is happening, you are over here with your little echo chamber of "everyone agrees with me", acting as if its just three or four people that complains, when pretty much only you in this ENTIRE THREAD, saying that its a "good change" without actually having any experience in it. So anything you say about the subject matter pretty much comes off as being disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I get that you feel a certain way, speak for yourself.
The forums being a place for feedback statement goes both ways. I have never tried to invalidate your opinions or perspective, I just say that I like the way the game has changed and you decide that's a reason to argue. I explain why I like it, and you try to silence my perspective for what? Because you want an echo chamber. It's not happening lol. Get over it and move on.

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So for that, there is one response to it:

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Originally Posted by iiOmarSP

You should also read and take up your own advice rather than constantly yap here in the forums, every single day, about how so many people like this change when its just you arguing with most people here about how they should consume product and never ask questions, rather than give feedback on this change.

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What's your point? I am stating my own opinion, not saying yours is invalid. Just expressing my disagreement with it personally and siding with the devs.

The other thing is, it's not simple at all the way it is now. It's just well designed.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Even if the majority of people were celebrating the changes and there was only a minority of people going against them, I wouldn't try to censor the opinions of the people who dislike them. It's okay to express your feedback. Go ahead with it. Stop crying over other people enjoying change.

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And throughout this whole thread you were just going back and forth with the majority who voiced their distaste and dislike for this change, as if you want to censor everyone who doesn't line up with what you claim as "good change"
And while we are at it, stop having your insecurities kick in the moment someone comes over here saying "I've made an account to say that I don't like this change", "I don't like these changes, they should do this instead" than to tell me "stop crying over other people enjoying change" cause if anything, we are only seeing one person (that being you) immediately becoming upset the moment someone says anything here.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I am stating my own opinion, not saying yours is invalid.

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Calling people crybabies for having a different opinion isn't implying their opinion is invalid? Saying someone's thread must be satire because you disagree isn't stating their opinion is invalid? Saying that it's weird people think their perspective matters isn't invalidating their opinion? Saying you're "glad most of [us] are never going to be involved in making games" isn't invalidating our opinions? You may need to learn how language works instead of spending so much time on the forums.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Calling people crybabies for having a different opinion isn't implying their opinion is invalid? Saying someone's thread must be satire because you disagree isn't stating their opinion is invalid? Saying that it's weird people think their perspective matters isn't invalidating their opinion? Saying you're "glad most of [us] are never going to be involved in making games" isn't invalidating our opinions? You may need to learn how language works instead of spending so much time on the forums.

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There is a difference between invalidating my position objectively, and me invalidating your opinion. Everything I said is okay, because I express it as my perspective.

What isn't okay is saying stuff like this "nobody supports the changes" "the changes objectively made the job unfun".

I am expressing my personal opinion, you are trying to pretend that your opinion is the only one happening. I'm okay with your opinion existing, I just think it's ridiculous and cringe.

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we are only seeing one person (that being you) immediately becoming upset the moment someone says anything here.

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I've never been upset at one point in this thread. Why would I be? The changes they made this patch are incredible. You're acting like someone on the winning side would ever be upset rofl. You're losing, not me.

Wise are those who go past the cave to avoid interacting with the being within.

My dudes, you're all taking the troll bait hard, and doing so only makes the feedback here more difficult to parse for whoever collects it for the devs.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

The other thing is, it's not simple at all the way it is now. It's just well designed.

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To get back to the real discussion rather than sticking on your insistence that you're not invalidating people's opinions, let's go back to this. Dragoon may not be simple the way it is now in your opinion, but as I demonstrated in these two comments, it is the most simple it has been since the start of Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Going into EW from ShB the job got simpler, between the 2 minute meta and the removal of Mirage Dives from Spineshatter, it was very straightforward to line up Life windows with buffs, and all they really added was charges that forced you to hold spineshatter for 2mins and Wyrmwind, which doesn't require a ton of thought. Then in DT they remove Mirage Dive's interaction entirely, [and] give us basically the same number of buttons to press meaning there is no added complexity.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

[C]omplexity may not be exactly measurable, but it's hardly subjective. Having the exact amount of a resource that guarantees that every time buffs come off cooldown you willbe able to do your additional skills *is* less complicated than having too much or too little and needing to adjust to those circumstances to place those additional skills under as many buff windows as possible, and there is no person who will dispute that. And both of those are more complex than there not being a resource to manage, and those additional skills being accessed by pressing a button that has the exact same cooldown timer as the buffs you would be trying to align with, which again, no serious person would dispute. You can argue that Life Surge charges and Wyrmwind do add some complexity, but with Wyrmwind the entire thought process is "oh, my buffs will be back before I get another scale, let me hold this for a couple more seconds," which is not long-term planning, and with Life Surge it just amounts to press it twice under the stronger buffs and once under the weaker ones. Now, maybe some people will actually find that more complicated than needing to manage Gaze stacks to line up LotD and buffs, but I'd be shocked if that was a significant number of people.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

My dudes, you're all taking the troll bait hard, and doing so only makes the feedback here more difficult to parse for whoever collects it for the devs.

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To add a couple of points to this. You're trying to argue with someone that thinks that you need plugins to hit all your positionals when doing mechanics; you're cheating if you can do both properly.

Someone that now claims to just be giving his opinion but has shut others' opinions by calling them "noob" or "weak". In fact, the latter was removed from the specific comment because I guess he thought it was too much.

If you have the energy to keep arguing, by all means, but you're gonna require infinite patience.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

To add a couple of points to this. You're trying to argue with someone that thinks that you need plugins to hit all your positionals when doing mechanics; you're cheating if you can do both properly.

Someone that now claims to just be giving his opinion but has shut others' opinions by calling them "noob" or "weak". In fact, the latter was removed from the specific comment because I guess he thought it was too much.

If you have the energy to keep arguing, by all means, but you're gonna require infinite patience.

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Why would anyone argue with me though? Of course you'd need infinite patience to engage in a neverending "argument" lol. It's subjective opinions. The reason I am speaking up is so people can get a sense for where the devs are coming from and probably move on with their lives instead of wasting them complaining about changes that are most likely here to stay.

There is no right and wrong in this entire thread. Everyone is just stating what they enjoy and hoping the devs side with them. Currently the devs side with me, if they sided with you I would just unsubscribe and move on like I have done in the past.

I edited the weak remark out because yes, it was too far and it was not necessary to convey the point I was making.

It's disingenuous to claim I am trolling just because I disagree with you though.

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To get back to the real discussion rather than sticking on your insistence that you're not invalidating people's opinions, let's go back to this. Dragoon may not be simple the way it is now in your opinion, but as I demonstrated in these two comments, it is the most simple it has been since the start of Stormblood.

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Sure, in one way it is simpler because they removed eye management. As far as button inputs go though, it is more complex than ever. Only pre-7.1 dawntrail had more complex inputs.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

To add a couple of points to this. You're trying to argue with someone that thinks that you need plugins to hit all your positionals when doing mechanics; you're cheating if you can do both properly.

Someone that now claims to just be giving his opinion but has shut others' opinions by calling them "noob" or "weak". In fact, the latter was removed from the specific comment because I guess he thought it was too much.

If you have the energy to keep arguing, by all means, but you're gonna require infinite patience.

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Ultimately that was why I posted that big list of all his comments, in hopes of demonstrating why he's not worth generally engaging with. It's just too bad that it has derailed the thread away from the main point of "we don't want our buttons being taken away, but if you're going to do it pick buttons that are less fun to press and aren't the entire reason that pre-7.1 Dragoon felt good to play in sub-level-100 content." Still, there is a lot of good feedback in this thread, and while it may be hard to parse it remains true that this is by far the most active a thread in the job design forum has been in quite some time, which I would hope suggests to whoever's collecting the feedback that this is a change a serious number of people take issue with.

I'm not making anything, they are objective in my opinion. Again, you fail to recognize whether I'm making anything or not is a matter of opinion. You're doing what you're criticizing other people for.

Fun is subjective, yes. Some people don't even play MMOs to begin with, which is totally fair. But that FFXIV is slowly pushing away old school players by making the game dull to them is objective. That this is bad, and other MMOs at some point regret doing this is also objective. If you don't bring in enough players, you're going to lose money.

It's very hard to convince this new generation to play MMORPGs. Action, single player games and gachas are much more appealing to teenagers. You definitely don't want to lose people, and it is possible to make a game for both groups. FFXIV MSQ and gearing is always designed with the casual community in mind. It's also very easy to get into raiding, once you get to level cap. Strongest crafted gear is always relevant. Now the developers are overdoing this design, losing hardcore players and even midcore, who want to grind something that's not a useless achievement like Hoarder. And with MSQ having such a terrible reception, they start losing casual players as well.

"Tons of people are happy" >>> I don't think you are aware that Dawntrail is the worst received expansion in such a long time, maybe the worst of all time. The situation is so bad FFXIV started losing more casual players, even though it was always designed around these people. It's such cheap quality that Yoshi-P had to apologize multiple times in public, promising changes in content.

Stop answer the troll, please. All that wonderful feedback bout dragoon now being mixed with replies to the troll that definitely just here to piss you all.

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Originally Posted by coffeebiscuit

Stop answer the troll, please. All that wonderful feedback bout dragoon now being mixed with replies to the troll that definitely just here to piss you all.

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Or, I would genuinely be unhappy with the game if they rolled back the changes they've implemented to dragoon. Definitely all about you though. The level of egocentric and entitled behavior I'm seeing in this thread is pretty wild.

You're free to express your opinions, just like I am free to say that I disagree and prefer the way the job plays now.

The reason I keep posting is because I care about the job staying this way, just like the reason you are posting. Nobody is trolling here, except for the people who say that "nobody wanted these changes". I did, I never enjoyed managing eyes, nor do I consider that a defining trait of the job. It was a clunky mechanic that made the gameplay flow poorly moment to moment.

But it's fine, keep pretending you're the only ones that matter.

"but there are 20-30 of us who really dislike the changes!! some of us even made a forum account just to complain!!"

Ah, the rash is back. Remember guys, picking at it just makes it worse.

That being said, I do respect yall fighting the good fight. As a long time DRG main spear-enthusiast, I don\\'t think SE cares very much about the feedback. We were warned by our Smn bros and our Drk bros, our Mnk bros and all the bros that came before us. The rework meant the future wasn\\'t looking bright. Still, I chose to believe this time would be different, this time things would work out for the better because the alternative was just too sad, this reality is too sad.

But the reality is, other jobs that have been reworked into brain-off button mash...(err can we even call it mash?) Maybe brain-off leisurely button taps that cater to the lowest common denominator havent improved either despite our bros from other jobs having fought for change for years. Its not looking good bois.

I knew something was up when Yoshi P out of the blue started commenting that he was still super invested in ff14 despite barely anyone even questioning it in the first place. It just screamed the guy who wants to be elsewhere but is like huh yeah im still listening babe, promise *kissykiss*

Boi has checked out. Its evident from the direction of endwalker and now dawntrail. Quality is slipping across the board. Patch cycles have increased yet time between content has only stretched out even further past regular patches. Game gets simplified, job gets simplified all for what we presume was them streamlining things so content could come out faster. But we\\'ve had the opposite. As a long time fan and supporter of the game, my first instinct is that it feels like a kick in the teeth, but after thinking a bit more, I still enjoyed all the time I had with the game and just because the game is is decline now doesnt take away from that.

The game isn\\'t made for those of us who have been here since the start anymore. I don\\'t know the numbers but maybe someome over as SE thinks theres more money in the casual simplified slowed down pace, or maybe they too have burnt out. The game has been going for a long time now. And weve had a good run.

As an old boi, I do miss what ff14 was. Ive been here since 1.0 and I don\\'t make excuses for the sorry state it launched in but I do miss the direction it was taking. 2.0 hit and things were simplified but the reasoning given was that it would take the game in a direction where they could focus more on creating new experiences rather than putting out the fires of half realised pipe dreams. What we were sold on was exciting. Open field primals that FCs could win the rights to summon, FC airships that you would take expeditions on with your friends, A reworked LB/battle regimen system where you queue skills with your party members to do a synchronized super attack, gear and materia that would augment your abilities outside of mere stat bonuses and many more promises lost to time.

Went off topic with my oldman nostalgia rambling what were we supposed to talk about again? Oh right DRG is cool, it used to be cooler though. #drgwasharderin2023

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Originally Posted by Reldhir

boomer rambling about the "good old days"

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It's just funny how subjective this all is. This game has really complicated and involved rotations relative to any other game. You say that it's gotten worse and worse, but for me the game has never stopped improving as I've played through all the content. Dawntrail combat design is way better than ever before for me.

I already know you disagree, but that's just how it is. You say yoshi has checked out, but maybe he just likes the game to feel differently than you. Because for me, this game feels amazing now. He likely is still super invested in it, just can't relate to what you want anymore. It's important to not project your own interests onto the devs. They likely do not want what you want. As someone who actively tries to conform to what the devs want in the games I play, I appreciate the game design. The moment I stop relating to the vision of the devs, I go somewhere else. I wonder why that's so hard for you to do. Maybe if people like you actually left the game, you'd make a difference and get what you want. You said your piece, they know what you want and why you're disappointed, now just move along.

I'm not trolling you, it's just that life is way too short to live the way you are living. I feel bad for you that you keep engaging in a system you are so disappointed with. You think the devs dont know what they are doing or aren't creating the game they want, but maybe it's literally just you and the people who share your sentiment. Maybe this game is all you have to live for though, who knows.

Please make hit detection for Drakesbane shorter, thanks.

Alright friends, no PvE job changes in the patch notes whatsoever, looks like we're in this one for the long haul! Strap in, it's going to be a long 4 months until the next chance we could get our buttons back.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Strap in, it's going to be a long 4 months until the next chance we could get our buttons back.

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Tbh, at this point it's hard to believe it's ever gonna happen.