Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

No

https://youtu.be/k65bhdogQKw

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

No

https://youtu.be/k65bhdogQKw

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For better or for worse, this was impressive.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I did. You still make no sense. Bad healer who doesn't heal (btw find me one of that with all the curebots)

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Right?

One of the leading complaints is how many "cure1bots" there are in this game. If that's true, than there should never be a wipe due to a lack of healing. Personally, I've never seen one in the wild, but people insist they exist. Someone might say "But what about the Glarespammer?!", well, presumably that person knows how to cast cures as well, they simply are trying to push their damage and aren't a bot that can't adjust since we're generally given the argument that Healers who damage know how to heal, they're just trying to optimize. This means they should be able to adjust to healing as needed.

And yeah, if you have no Tanks, you aren't clearing much content, either, unless we're talking Ex5.

Moreover, people are talking about making Ultimates have tight healing checks, not normal content.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Funny thing is... they don't.

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I think you're mixing up "after the fact" with "asking before hand".

These people DID ask for this BEFORE hand. Sure, they don't like it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it. Almost all homogenization in this game that players complain about now was due to players asking for it before hand, including the people who decried it after. While it is true that in some cases these can be different people, the 2 min meta is somewhat unique because I don't recall seeing people THINKING ABOUT the crit variance before it was implemented. Like look back at all the threads requesting buffs be unified rather than being all over the place. Can you find a single poster saying "Well, that's a bad idea because then crit variance will be massive"?

I doubt you can, because I don't think people were actually considering it (or at least widespread/outspoken people who would talk about it) at the time. That is, people didn't see it coming.

That was something no one was forecasting. No one saw it coming. And since no one saw it coming, people were largely supporting it because they didn't think of or foresee the downside.

Sure, the 1%ers are upset about it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it then and didn't realize the downsides it would bring.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I saw you hit the post limit there buddy. Good thing I like scrolling back.
But yeah. That's the "overhaul" I think the game needs. No amount of rebalancing and number crunching and anything would help the game.
An entire overhaul of the healing system is the only thing that can make the healing gameplay interesting.

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Yeah, post limit here is kinda stupid low as far as allowing actual good conversations.

In any case - "the only thing that can make the healing gameplay interesting"? That's not a statement of fact. You need to add two words on the end of that sentence "...to me." Many others would find the changes I outlined would make healing fun and interesting. Many people - as you note - like healing as it is now and would find a complete overhaul to make it LESS fun/interesting.

I think a more measured approach to thread the needle is the answer, and to actually do things like make Ultimates a completely different, much more intensive healing experience. That's absolutely necessary for "Go play Ultimate" to actually be an answer of any kind.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

I believe that this and gradual removal of healer responsibility is one and the same. Healers are tiny wittle babs and healing is really scawy, so they keep adding more defensives and heals onto tanks and DPS to make up for the healers.
WHM and AST particularly suffer a lot from this DPS/Tank mit thing because they don't have mit much to start with, so they have to rely on OTHER non-healer jobs to do what their role is meant to do!

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I think the RESULT is the same, but I don't think that's the cause. A lot of Healers - both the curebots and the optimizing high enders - seem to WANT to heal. "wittle babs" WANT to heal, not do damage. "big babies" want to deal damage because they're bored with so little healing, but would also like to heal more. So if that's the reason behind it, it's misguided at best.

Besides, we all know DPS are first class citizens in this game and Tanks are second class with Healers being a serf underclass. The Devs aren't doing this for the sake of Healers if doing it is making DPS and Tanks feel more powerful, that's the reason they're doing it.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Clearly you have never talked to a single high end raider. Raiders HATE the two minute meta more than anyone in this game.

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As I said above, Raiders hate the two minute meta now. Can you find lost of posts from all over about dedicated raiders in ShB when the 2 min meta was announced arguing against it?

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Originally Posted by seerstone

i’ve been a healer main in mmos always. i was a healer main my entire time through MSQ, and i really didn’t think it was in that bad of a place until i started leveling alt DPS jobs and realized how much fun i was having leveling them. i think there are definitely problems in every class but healing is in a really bad place. high end content being able to get cleared without healers is proof enough of that. NO ONE wants to heal anymore and it’s not a skill issue it’s a game issue.

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Honestly, I don't really get this. I find leveling and doing MSQ and questing on Healers pretty fun, and I've done it on all four of them.

Conversely, I don't find playing or leveling a DPS very fun at all.

I find Tanking fairly fun, though.

What's so fun about DPSing? Having more buttons to press? Seeing more big numbers? Tanks are a nice midpoint where I feel like I can still heal decently, I have a couple of buttons that go together but I feel this is more a melee thing because Tanks feel more responsive with no cast times. Though even then, the only one I really like is GNB since the abilities seem to interlock so well. I think it's more how smooth it is that feels satisfying, and most DPS are just too...clunky and stutter-step-y. Healers are also smooth to play, but more because of how they function based on weaving abilities more than anything.

Different people like different things, but I can't figure out what people find "fun" about DPS. I just register it as "different people like different things".

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, I don't really get this. I find leveling and doing MSQ and questing on Healers pretty fun, and I've done it on all four of them.

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So do I and you know why that is? Because questing in grays that are 10 levels behind and having parties with bad gear in leveling dungeons are the only times one actually gets to cast heals and triage. At 90 people either take no damage or they die instantly.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

That was something no one was forecasting. No one saw it coming. And since no one saw it coming, people were largely supporting it because they didn't think of or foresee the downside.

Sure, the 1%ers are upset about it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it then and didn't realize the downsides it would bring.

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You're right, it's actually our fault that we saw some changes like the AST card changes in 5.0 and thought 'this doesn't look amazing but I'll give SE the benefit of the doubt and see if it turns out well, not having to fish for Balance does sound kinda nice after all'

Our cautious optimism about things has come back to bite us and now the fact we had even a shred of hope means that all of these changes we're not happy with are actually on OUR heads.

Oh, but don't think this means you're allowed to be pessimistic, or point out that SE has lost their way on healer design for years, healers are fine as they are. If you're not having fun with them, that's a you problem

(sarcasm as ever)

I thought the AST card changes had potential, back in 5.0. Suffice to say, my opinion has shifted since then. That's the crazy thing, people can shift in opinion when more evidence about a topic comes to light. Surely you're not trying to suggest that, if someone thought 'well idk about the Kaiten removal, but I'll try it and give feedback like the devs said', they have forfeited their right to complain about SAM in any way shape or form?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

One of the leading complaints is how many "cure1bots" there are in this game. If that's true, than there should never be a wipe due to a lack of healing

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Bruh you seriously don't know anything about healing lmao

Those curebots typically are the WORST at healing too, and it gets apparent at Extreme and above

Seriously how do you talk about healing so much without even grasping the fundamentals. Healing a lot in this game does not automatically allow you to prevent healer-caused wipes. In fact it can be detrimental.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Bruh you seriously don't know anything about healing lmao

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Nah man, its us who don't know anything about healing. We're actually 'support players' in disguise

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I think you're mixing up "after the fact" with "asking before hand".

These people DID ask for this BEFORE hand. Sure, they don't like it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it. Almost all homogenization in this game that players complain about now was due to players asking for it before hand, including the people who decried it after. While it is true that in some cases these can be different people, the 2 min meta is somewhat unique because I don't recall seeing people THINKING ABOUT the crit variance before it was implemented. Like look back at all the threads requesting buffs be unified rather than being all over the place. Can you find a single poster saying "Well, that's a bad idea because then crit variance will be massive"?

I doubt you can, because I don't think people were actually considering it (or at least widespread/outspoken people who would talk about it) at the time. That is, people didn't see it coming.

That was something no one was forecasting. No one saw it coming. And since no one saw it coming, people were largely supporting it because they didn't think of or foresee the downside.

Sure, the 1%ers are upset about it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it then and didn't realize the downsides it would bring.

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First and foremost, I replied to someone talking about current opinions regarding the two minute meta now that we've been exposed to it for over a year. So I have no idea why you're bringing up past opinions that aren't even relevant.

With all that said, you're the one conflating opinions here. Did some people advocate for the two minute meta? Yes. A good many others were either cautious or outright hated it from the word go. There wasn't some massive consensus on any of the online forums regarding it. You're also conveniently ignoring the devs didn't simply shift to the two minute meta wholesale but also added a ton of big potency abilities while making zero adjustments to crit scaling, which was a source of criticism throughout Shadowbringers.

Once again, you're painting with an incredibly broad brush here. Dancer were notoriously upset with Tech Step having a chance to whiff and deal 180k instead of 370-400k. The difference was that was a relatively rare occurrence. Therefore, it didn't give players any reason to conclude it wouldn't function the same in Endwalker. Or that the dev team wouldn't make necessary adjustments.

You're essentially trying to fault the playerbase for not foreseeing all the nuances and potential pitfalls the two minute meta would bring despite some of them not even existing in Shadowbringers, thus offering no rationale to draw such a conclusion. Not to mention, it's the devs literal job to iron out these mistakes. That's why they get paid.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You're right, it's actually our fault that we saw some changes like the AST card changes in 5.0 and thought 'this doesn't look amazing but I'll give SE the benefit of the doubt and see if it turns out well, not having to fish for Balance does sound kinda nice after all'

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Sarcasm aside, yes, it's a different class of thing. Some changes SE makes, people genuinely didn't ask for, and as soon as it's announced, people freak out about (occasionally correctly). But the 2 min meta/aligning party buffs WAS something that high end players were asking for (most of the regular playerbase didn't then and still doesn't seem to think about buffs and aligning buffs - SEE: Literally any 24 man run), but that one came from the raiding community. Trying to say it didn't now is an attempt at revising history. Though in this particular case, it was because seemingly literally no one suspected this result.

People can shift opinion. That's fine.

What is wrong is when people shift opinion then try to blame OTHER PEOPLE for their former opinions and its results. It's one thing to say "Yeah, I thought that would be good, but now I see how terrible it is and want us to move away from it", but quite another to say "Nuh-uh! Me and people like me never wanted that! It was the dirty casuals and the one-armed man!!"

Changing one's mind and positions in the face of new data is entirely valid, but that doesn't mean one gets to rewrite history.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

So do I and you know why that is? Because questing in grays that are 10 levels behind and having parties with bad gear in leveling dungeons are the only times one actually gets to cast heals and triage. At 90 people either take no damage or they die instantly.

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I mean at level in at level stuff. /shrug

I think it's cool going around with Eos having my back, I think it's cool using my various abilities. I just recently finished every (and I do mean every) zone sidequest in the entire game (no more "!" marks around my maps except for repeatable stuff like relic weapons/tools and some lingering Job quests for Jobs I haven't finished leveling, etc). And I did them on Healers. I even did some of them on AST (the Healer Job I like the least) because of seeing people say how boring and slow it is (I couldn't tell it was any slower; maybe one more Malific cast vs a Broil or Glare on SCH or WHM, but it wasn't noticeable to me and I was juggling more stuff with Cards and Star so it didn't really feel different in terms of less fun or longer kill times). I especially like doing them on SCH because of what I can weave around my Broils.

But I think it's probably more due to me actively healing rather than "only HP that matters is the last 1" as a mindset.

I think there were a few I did on GNB in Thav to see if it was noticeably different. It...wasn't. You can't even get through a full opener on anything, or really even a Gnashing Fang combo, and the kill speed seemed only slightly faster. But I don't determine "fun" by "kill speed of overworld quest mobs", so...

I think it really is just different people find different things fun.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Bruh

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Bruh, I'm still waiting for that marriage proposal. If you're going to stalk me and have me live in your head this rent free, you might as well put a ring on it.

I'll give your arguments the time of day when you get to where you can actually present an argument without an insult or disparaging remark first, rofl

And maybe when you have an argument. What would help is if you actually started reading things before replying. For example:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Moreover, people are talking about making Ultimates have tight healing checks, not normal content.

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Bruh, learn to read! rofl

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Nah man, its us who don't know anything about healing. We're actually 'support players' in disguise

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Oh, you know about healing, Roe. You just enjoy DPSing and particularly non-healing support more. You've even said it yourself in basically every conversation we've ever had on the topic of what you enjoy about healers, both here in FFXIV, in other MMOs, and in non-MMOs like D&D/Baldur's Gate/etc. Getting mad at someone for pointing out your own views is just strange. Especially since that person isn't attacking those positions.

As I have said: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nor have I ever said there was. The "real healer" argument was your and Semi's, not mine. I've long embraced going back to the ARR model of Pure (WHM) + Support (SCH) Healer so we can have both existing in the same space, or baring that, making Support an actual full role (which I fully expect will never happen). You and she are the only ones arguing different.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

First and foremost,

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First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

The reason to bring up history is because of who did ask for it. The 1% like blaming everything on casuals, but casuals didn't ask for this, because (as we're all painfully aware) casuals don't tend to do things like line up buffs. Many don't even USE buffs, much less optimize their windows or worry about alignment.

Yes, many don't like it now - did I not literally say this? - but how we got here was people asking for it combined with people not really understanding how bad it would be/get.

You are correct with your analysis of WHY that is (the big hits + buff alignment + huge crit >>>>>> all ultra meta), but most people didn't see that coming, and not nearly enough to have a mass complaint about it before implementation.

So here we are now.

Maybe people will be a bit more cautious in the future, but I doubt it. I do hope 7.0 sees some kind of retraction/reversal, though.

Xeno has a pretty good take on it++

https://youtu.be/I3LZ65gwYGA?t=202

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Originally Posted by Renathras

First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

The reason to bring up history is because of who did ask for it. The 1% like blaming everything on casuals, but casuals didn't ask for this, because (as we're all painfully aware) casuals don't tend to do things like line up buffs. Many don't even USE buffs, much less optimize their windows or worry about alignment.

Yes, many don't like it now - did I not literally say this? - but how we got here was people asking for it combined with people not really understanding how bad it would be/get.

You are correct with your analysis of WHY that is (the big hits + buff alignment + huge crit >>>>>> all ultra meta), but most people didn't see that coming, and not nearly enough to have a mass complaint about it before implementation.

So here we are now.

Maybe people will be a bit more cautious in the future, but I doubt it. I do hope 7.0 sees some kind of retraction/reversal, though.

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That isn't a correction but you assuming the average player even has an opinion on the two minute meta, which largely doesn't impact their gameplay one way or another. You essentially took my qualifying of "some" and changed it to "many" just to amplify your own argument without any basis to back up such an assertion. At best, it's arguing semantics.

Neither did the raid community, which is far larger than the 1%. You're painting with that broad brush again and assuming everyone on the opposing side wanted this two minute meta and only now turned against it. While you acknowledge my analysis, you seemingly missed the point of it. People didn't see it coming because there was literal no way for them to without massive guesswork. We didn't have nearly as many high potency abilities nor was the crit scaling in Shadowbringers as poorly balanced. Hence why I specifically brought up Dancer and Tech Step. This is likely a result of the stat squish and a lack of necessary adjustments. How are players supposed to complain or even worry about something they have zero knowledge of being a problem because it quite literally didn't exist?

You're essentially blaming the playerbase for not being clairvoyant instead of the dev team for not properly balancing the changes.

All of that aside, no the casual players didn't ask for this but they are the reason it happened. Yoshida outright said their intent was to make things more approachable and lower the skill floor. We know this when he stated the removal for maintenance buffs like Straight Shot and Heavy Shot were removed specifically because casual players weren't maintaining them and it caused a sizable gap in damage between them and the better players. The two minute meta exists not as a response to the 1% but due to casual players not pressing their buttons properly and the dev team insisting on making this game as accessible as possible, personal responsibility be damned.

Even taken at face value, you realize your argument amounts to SE actually listening to the supposed 1% and changing the combat system to accommodate their desire to parse. I don't think I need to explain why that's laughably ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Xeno has a pretty good take on it++

https://youtu.be/I3LZ65gwYGA?t=202

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I like his statement "I hope Square Enix takes this and understands how shitty of a design this is."

When I played healer in TERA, I was actually healing, sometimes barely scraping in some dps in there, when I played healer in Aion, I had to be sure tank's HP was always at 100% and manage my MP carefully and then maybe I had 5 seconds to squeeze in some dot in there. Even healing in GW2 is more fun than this, and just saddens me so much lol.

FFXIV is the only game that actually made me not want to play healer for the first time in years, because of how awful the design is in its current condition. They have a chance to fix this, they really do, but it feels like... they don't want to do it, otherwise it becomes "overwhelming" for some people.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Xeno has a pretty good take on it++

https://youtu.be/I3LZ65gwYGA?t=202

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It's interesting how much his comment section disagrees with him and with the majority of posters here, though.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That isn't a correction but you assuming the average player even has an opinion on the two minute meta,

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That's...my...point:

They don't.

I'm assuming the exact opposite of what you said I am.

Did raiders ask for buff timers to be more unified? Yes or no?

I mean, the answer is "some/many did, some didn't have an opinion either way, no one was really saying at the time it was a bad idea", or something akin to that. And yes, I agree people didn't see it coming - I've literally said this, what, 2 or 3 times now? - perhaps try reading my posts before hitting the reply button...

The casual players didn't ask for this while raiders (SOME raiders, but RAIDERS did). You can't blame the change on casuals for what raiders wanted. Yoshi P said "skill floor", not "casuals", and while you think of the two as synonymous, what you call casuals aren't the skill floor as they aren't running high end content. What he's talking about are mid-core raiders.

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That said, I think everyone who considers the question (hardcore, midcore, and casual) is more or less in some agreement it's a bad design. We'll see if 7.0 moves away from it.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Oh, you know about healing, Roe. You just enjoy DPSing and particularly non-healing support more. You've even said it yourself in basically every conversation we've ever had on the topic of what you enjoy about healers, both here in FFXIV, in other MMOs, and in non-MMOs like D&D/Baldur's Gate/etc. Getting mad at someone for pointing out your own views is just strange. Especially since that person isn't attacking those positions.

As I have said: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nor have I ever said there was. The "real healer" argument was your and Semi's, not mine. I've long embraced going back to the ARR model of Pure (WHM) + Support (SCH) Healer so we can have both existing in the same space, or baring that, making Support an actual full role (which I fully expect will never happen). You and she are the only ones arguing different.

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See what I mean about Sylphies defining anyone better than them at healing as Not Real Healers? The consistency is fascinating.

There's this weird cognitive dissonance world they live in where you can never get it through to them that spamming healing spells for their own sake isn't how efficiency works. And that the better you get at healing, the more of your time is spent in your downtime. And since you spend more and more time in your downtime, you'd like that downtime to be engaging.

They will, without fail, always, spin that into "oh so you like the non-healing side of your kit more huh? So you're not a HEALer then, you spend more time SUPPORTING/being a DPS in sheep's clothing! Aha!"

My theory is that they've defined exactly where they're at as the "correct" amount of skilled one needs to be at healing, and anyone who likes pushing their limits otherwise is "not actually a healer" for some ego reason or something.

I have mained a healer in every online game and most of the offline games I've played. But no, since I don't enjoy giving myself an RSI and killing brain cells spamming Glare on field mobs while I "weave all of my heals" on myself, I don't know what the true healing trenches are like.

I prefer to wave all of that fluff away and look at the line in the sand. It's A L W A Y S "don't you dare make (downtime) more intensive". You know, the part of the kit they just finished saying they don't like, or don't like engaging with, or isn't "important". You could suggest a thousand different ways to do so and make the current 121111111111 gameplay near-equivalent to a rotation that somewhat activates your brain. Doesn't matter. Don't care. Someone, somewhere, will "judge" them for not being perfect because they're dirty evil elitist casual-hating raiders.

And then the insecurity that's behind their entire position neatly reveals itself. Every time.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's interesting how much his comment section disagrees with him and with the majority of posters here, though.

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Where? Can you link or cite as I'm not seeing it. Scrolling through the YouTube comments is a mixture of people outright agreeing, missing older content and commenting that tank self sustain is too high sprinkled in with a few comedy shots fired at Rin/Dice. Are you counting the comments about Tank/DPS sustain as disagreeing with him or is it something I'm missing in the stream chat? I'll openly admit I pay zero attention to stream chat as it's invariably little more than trolling.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

See what I mean about Sylphies defining anyone better than them at healing as Not Real Healers? The consistency is fascinating.

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1) We've been over this, I'm not a Sylphie since I do damage.

2) Sylphie is a slur/insult at this point, so probably reportable...

3) Show me where I said she was "Not Real Healer"? Can you show me where I said that? I said that SHE SAID HERSELF she enjoys DPSing and non-healing support (she's mentioned loving classes like D&D Cleric and Druid for their NON-HEALING utility abilities), and her description of what she considered a healer was in that same vein:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

My view is this: Healers focus on keeping the party alive, with extra duties like mitigating damage, debuffing enemies to deal less damage, buffing allies to deal more damage/beneficial effects as the game's system allows. However, that's all part of the overall 'duty' of the healer. And that 'overall duty' is the same as the other two roles of the trinity: do what is necessary to aid the team to successful completion of the content. And yes, that means that if there is a dead GCD where you do not need to heal, there are no buffs or debuffs to refresh, nothing else that takes priority, it means 'do damage, even if it is really weak', because every little helps and there's times where the boss enrages at 0.1%. As a personal anecdote, my first clear of P8S was so close, the enrage had finished it's cast and people were dying in that staggered fashion. And my last action was a swiftcasted Glare. Had I not done that, it's entirely possible that we'd have actually wiped.

Dealing damage is part and parcel of being not just a healer, but a team player in a team game. We don't tell the tanks to 'only keep aggro, damage is the DPS's job', we don't tell supports to only stand in lane and leech XP from the carry, we don't run around as Lifeline in Apex Legends only pressing her Tactical to heal people. No, we also find time to do damage as tank, harass the enemy laner as the support/set up ganks, and shoot at people in Apex, even as Lifeline. We do what we have to, to raise the chance of success for the team. Even if it's not necessarily in the name of the Trinity Role we're assigned. After all, we don't complain that Melee can heal themselves with Bloodbath, do we?

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[emphasis added]
[Aside: We do, in fact, complain that Melee can heal themselves with Bloodbath... <_< ]

This isn't me saying anything other than looking at what she's said over the last months of comments she's made. Should I ignore her saying what she likes and assume she likes something different than what she says she likes?

And we could look at what you've said about what you like about healers in other games and MMOs as well, with the same result. You guys are of a similar mind.

And as I have said repeatedly: There's nothing wrong with that.

[ EDIT: Actually, never mind, it's not even worth it anymore. ]

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

they live in
get it through to them
They will
that they've defined
their entire position

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In most circles, talking about people present in the third person (even and especially while you're insulting and lying about them) is considered extremely rude.

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Once again: WHERE DID I SAY in that post you quoted that "you're not a HEALer" or "DPS in sheep's clothing"?

Talk about ego...

Maybe if you actually read what people said and stopped putting words in their mouth...but that shows the insecurity behind someone's position which neatly reveals itself. Every time.

As it turns out, I've also mained healer in every online game and most offline games I've played (all of the ones that HAVE a healer I've done it on).

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EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Where? Can you link or cite as I'm not seeing it. Scrolling through the YouTube comments is a mixture of people outright agreeing, missing older content and commenting that tank self sustain is too high sprinkled in with a few comedy shots fired at Rin/Dice. Are you counting the comments about Tank/DPS sustain as disagreeing with him or is it something I'm missing in the stream chat? I'll openly admit I pay zero attention to stream chat as it's invariably little more than trolling.

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Fair, let me get some examples. Though I suppose part of this depends on what part you want to call disagreement. Specifically I mean disagreeing with his position that this shows that there's a problem with healers. There seem to be a lot of comments suggesting the problem is with Tanks/DPS Jobs and with the fight design (which, to be fair to him, he did mention as well):

"Does this say how healers aren't needed, or does it say how DPS and tanks have WAAAAAY too MUCH healing and mitigation? Those are two very different arguments, with two very different solutions."

"i liked healers doing dps at first but i just find it annoying now"

"That’s what I’m saying
I do Mentor roulette and get ifrit Ex with multiple sprouts in party
Now that’s a real healing experience
I HATE how the game is designed where healer dps is an expectation
In my opinion, healers dpsing should be an optimization. Not the expectation
High level healing is so ----ing boring. (It’s really only fun when ur in Rouls with new people and shit hits the fan)
When clearing, Your entire plan is to never use a heal GCD. And I think that’s just shit design"

"I mean this also shows how broken ass tanks are right now lol. they just dont need healers anymore and dps just eed it if they actually --- up mechanics but not really for anything else.
I get that people want healers more iteresting but the flaw is ot just with them."

"Do you realize that giving healer 1 extra dot doesn't change the fact they are still replaceable in this ultimate? a main job of healer is healing, and the reason why dps rotation is boring is because the healing is very monotone and predictable. if the fight has more "randomness" in healing that requires the healer to use gcd healing more, the dps rotation can still be simple since they have to put their focus on something else. It also helps fixing this problem since other jobs cannot have the flexibility of GCD heal like a "true" healer job"

"This is where a lot of people get it wrong. It's not healer design, it's the design of the other jobs, especially tanks and the design of the encounters themselves.

"People will just put the blame on healer design because they're bored AF playing the role. SE just needs to give them more to do by taking away the busted ass abilities that invalidates them in content. It's as simple as that."

"I agree it does not fix the issue and that the problem lies with tanks. I just thought there would be other ways than damn damage rotations to make healers more fun as well. If I wanted those I would play dps. I would rather use cleanse or even resque for mechanics that require it than them giving us a rotation.
Of course destroying the root of the problem would work but I am not so optimistic that square could fix that in the near future…"

"I understand your point, but part of the reason we got to this point is the "just throw another dot " on the healer and walk away. Sorry, I want a little more attention to each healer job that this tired old solution, and I don't see why all 4 healers should get the same solution."

"The problem with healing currently is that it's expected of them to not only do damage but also keep the party alive. They start with more responsibility to begin with and naturally less people pick up the role because why do something the hard way? This role disparity can be clearly seen in fights that require more of healers such as TEA (where most of the time forming a group is spent looking for healers, followed by tanks (again role with more responsibility). Now, you would say - oh, just make them heal more and decrease their damage; unfortunately that won't work because you increase the mitigation and dps requirements of the other roles, as well as make fight design harder (to put more damage requires more time spent casting/channeling that damage unless you put dots). Essentially the designers are put in a predicament where substantially changing how 1 role works, greatly affects the others - there is too much interdependency between roles. With how things are right now, a drastic overhaul of role design needs to be considered or these problems will keep appearing in the future - making fights seem incorrectly designed and/or tested while the underlying problem is overlooked."

"Everytime they make a role responsibility too hard in a fight suddenly that role is lacking from the party finder. Healings to hard cause theres dots on everything? suddenly less healers, tanking is too hard for some reason, suddenly no tanks. Its already in the rest of the game now. Tanking is the ''perceived'' hardest role to get into because of tank anxiety and the responsibility of ''being the leader'' (also helps theres not that many to choose from) And a game like this is often shaped around what the community wants, theyre always gonna have to pander to one group or the other. The people who want a challenge but dont wanna be flamed for not being good enough, and the people who just don't care and want things hard as possible so they can suffer until finally getting that moment of satisfaction clearing"

"p8s: constant bleeds = people complain its too hard to heal
top: only mit checks = people complain healers dont do anything

i agree that healing sucks atm but can people decide"

"I really dont think this is just a healer problem. them being able to do this is cuz tanks are so broken they dont need healers anymore. they can just heal themsel while doing damage and all"

"I'm only a few raid tiers deep (First raid was E12S) into healing on FFXIV and the biggest take away I have as time progressed is not only am I discouraged from hardcasting ANY heals (maybe preshields), but mitigations are being pushed away from my responsibility and given to DPS. So like no matter how well a healer does, if the team doesn't mit it just makes the healer look bad. So now we're in this fucked up world where the only meta we have is where I mash a single dps button, keep up my dot, and pray my DPS use their mits otherwise I'm getting thrown under the bus because there's just physically nothing I can do to prevent deaths if dps fumble their responsibilities. I 100% think that's why there was that HUGE healer debacle at the start of this last raid tier. Honestly if they just deleted my offensive dps button and made me hardcast heals and weave mits/ogcd emergency heals I'd be ALL for it.

Let healers control the entirety of mitigation and healing for the team excluding tanks. What sucks is playing PF is actually exciting (and infuriating) as a healer because you gotta make on the fly mitigation swaps, move CDs around to compensate for the complete dipshits that quadruple mit a 40% raidwide so there's nothing for the massive 100%+ coming up etc."

"I will believe everyone's complaints that healing is easy when healers aren't always the last filled role in pf. If fights required more gcd healing then imagine how bad of an experience it would be playing with your typical pf healer that refuses to heal for their parse"

"I don't think the fight is really that bad. Sure its definitely mundane in some bits but honestly you could argue that about every ultimate really."

"I agree it’s impressive but “No healers”, except clemency, divine veil, n-flash, shake it off, Phoenix, curing waltz, improv, vercure, mantra and crest as well as bloodbaths and second winds plus mitigation
...
[in a reply] that’s why I said it’s still impressive, but it’s not like they had no heals at all lol"

"I am a massive fan of Dark Souls challenge runs so doing something in an unconventional but harder way seems only like a good thing to me but whatever."

"It kinda baffles me how this game can do something, and people will hate it so much.

P5s-p8s there was lack of healers for a bit in pf because of the amount of stuff healers had to do outside of dps, so they made the next content less roles.

They made TOP and the fact that you can clear this without a healer shows that they don’t prioritize roles?

I guess I can say that comparing savage fights with ultimate fights isn’t fair, nor on the same level, which could be true. All I can say is that it’s a pattern when content is released."

"IMO, in dungeons and raids, healers need to heal, and not DPS. Now whether that means that content needs to be harder, players need to take more damage, or healer roles need to be revamped, is debatable. "

I'm pretty sure there's something in there you can classify as "disagrees".

.

EDIT2: I'm not the one "flaming", she is. In any case, I saw your post after I replied to her and so got those quotes for ya. Ta-dah! \o/

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Originally Posted by Renathras

<snip>

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Oi, less flaming, more answering actually interesting questions! ;)

Where were you finding all the people disagreeing with Xeno? Can you link to them?

Ta

*edit*

Ta!

And I had a feeling it would be that sort of stuff yeah. I don't really think it's fair to say that those are people disagreeing with Xeno. Rather it's a lot of different perspectives on what the problem is. I'm pretty confident in saying that we can both agree that you can't really put your finger on one single issue that's the root of all this discourse right?

Tanks soloing even the roughest level cap dungeon bosses in itself isn't the problem.
Healers having an absurd number of oGCD heals now in itself isn't the problem.
DPS having as much responsibility for mitigation as healers in itself isn't the problem.
Fights typically being much slower puzzles vs the frantic and unforgiving smackdowns of the past in itself isn't the problem.

It's a combination of the above and more that's gotten us to this point. I've been saying that SE are painting themselves into a corner with healer design for at least 5 years now. The responses are diverse not because Xeno is 'wrong' but because the issues are manyfold at his point.

There are definite a few that are going against Xeno's narrative for sure, but IMO many of those are either flat out incorrect, unfair or just missing the point maybe through language barriers or just being obtuse:

'"This is where a lot of people get it wrong. It's not healer design, it's the design of the other jobs, especially tanks and the design of the encounters themselves.''

Healer design isn't the sole problem, but it's absolutely part of it.

"p8s: constant bleeds = people complain its too hard to heal
top: only mit checks = people complain healers dont do anything''

Sweeping generalisations and stereotypes are bad mmmkay?

"I really dont think this is just a healer problem. them being able to do this is cuz tanks are so broken they dont need healers anymore. they can just heal themsel while doing damage and all"

It's as much a content problem as it is a Tank sustain problem, example 1: RubicanteEX

''Let healers control the entirety of mitigation and healing for the team excluding tanks. What sucks is playing PF is actually exciting (and infuriating) as a healer because you gotta make on the fly mitigation swaps, move CDs around to compensate for the complete ****** that quadruple mit a 40% raidwide so there's nothing for the massive 100%+ coming up etc."

Why are you citing this as someone disagreeing?

https://twitter.com/imJillTime/statu...642611206?s=20

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Originally Posted by Renathras

1) We've been over this...

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We have. I recognize you...

Recalled your long drawn out paragraphs on the DSP-Subsection with zero valid points. The lack of game-know-how reflects your credentials as does your advocacy to lobotomize Job designs further. Xeno's makes valid points, but we don't need a streamer to highlight something that's been a glaring issue for years... its just nice that someone is shedding some light on it. You state wild claims often without any proof.

But if there is one thing I'd like to request like I did back in the DPS-Subsection... Will you freaking stop editing your post to be above 3000 characters? have you tried condensing your argument after you proof read it? Last time it was over 5500 to still make zero good points in every post drowning out other posts... like stop DX<

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Fair, let me get some examples. *snip*

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I think the real takeaway is the seeming agreement that there is a problem in need of fixing. Unsurprisingly, the solution one favors colors how one describes what the problem is (tanks/DPS are busted with their mits and heals! no, it's the encounter that's busted for not dealing enough damage! no, healers need more interesting downtime! etc. etc. etc.).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

In any case - "the only thing that can make the healing gameplay interesting"? That's not a statement of fact. You need to add two words on the end of that sentence "...to me." Many others would find the changes I outlined would make healing fun and interesting. Many people - as you note - like healing as it is now and would find a complete overhaul to make it LESS fun/interesting.

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I disagree. I did say that many people like it now sure but not because it's "more engaging" than what I proposed, but rather because healing in this game is the easiest and most braindead healing has been across many MMOs.

It's accessible, and it's very easy to find success in it, and there's not much of a skill gap, so new players won't feel too bad for actually being mediocre, so they can feel better about themselves and act like they actually know what they're doing or are talking about. It's very much in line with Yoshi-P's entire mindset of "Pick Up and Play", where you don't really have to master anything to find success in the game.

The problem with healing is the same the problems with tanking. It's both low skill floor and low skill ceiling, and the "complexity" is derived from DPS Rotations, which has nothing to do with their roles.
This is akin to Samurai not having to build stickers to Midare and turning Midare to a GCD you can spam every 2.5 seconds, but then making it so that Third Eye actually gives you stacks of "Recovery Midare", and then you'd have to position yourself near the tank because now, every stack of "Recovery Midare" would heal the tank. It's nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I think a more measured approach to thread the needle is the answer, and to actually do things like make Ultimates a completely different, much more intensive healing experience. That's absolutely necessary for "Go play Ultimate" to actually be an answer of any kind.

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It wouldn't, because we would go back to the initial problem, wherein healers will now have a high skill floor, but the skill floor is also the skill ceiling. Sure that's a lot more interesting than the current state of healers, but that's not really the goal here. The game needs the skill ceiling, and it won't get there with healers with the current design, regardless of how many numbers you crunch.

The overhaul I suggest would introduce ramping and healing rotations to healers, similar to how SAM ramps up to a Midare/Tsubame, Instead of having powerful healing spells available 24/7 like Medica 2/ Medica and Cure 3, the healers would have to do their healing rotations properly in order to gain access to those spells. It would require you to think about healing itself, rather than it being an afterthought like it is now (and it always has been) wherein you optimize your dps more and you relegate your healing abiltiies to a spreadsheet; And this will in turn make healing engaging, because everytime you have to think in a video game is the time where you are engaged.

A good example that I have is Disc Priest healing in a raid setting, wherein the spec heals through the buff called Atonement that lasts for 18 seconds, as 40%(give or take) of all damage you deal to a single target would be transferred to anyone with Atonement as healing:

Weak single target heals would apply as much Atonement to as many peopel as possible without the buff running out
Power Word: Radiance(can only apply Atonement to five people and you only have 2 charges every 20 seconds) would be used to apply Atonement to everyone else
then you use a cooldown to extend/buff Atonement or you forgo it completely for an emergency ramp
then you DPS the living shit out of the target just so you can heal everyone through the massive multiple raid wides that are coming out.

It's simple in concept yes, but there's multiple ways to fulfill every single step in that series of events, including the DPS portion.

That's what I think the game needs for healers. Engaging healer-related gameplay that's not simply just "extra DPS buttons", and that's what I personally want in a healer overhaul.
And frankly I don't think this is feasible as it will need every encounter in the game to be reworked, and will result in everyone else to be too scared to heal resulting in lower healer numbers.

A lot of people would complain about this, not because it's less engaging, but simply because it's too hard.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

https://twitter.com/imJillTime/statu...642611206?s=20

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They will end nerfing summoner's ress have the same cd as blue mage's after this haha.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

3) Show me where I said she was "Not Real Healer"? Can you show me where I said that? I said that SHE SAID HERSELF she enjoys DPSing and non-healing support (she's mentioned loving classes like D&D Cleric and Druid for their NON-HEALING utility abilities), and her description of what she considered a healer was in that same vein:

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I see I said that 'dealing damage is part of the healer responsibilities, after all other priorities are taken care of'. That is to say, if the game actually demanded we spend 75% of our GCDs on healing because the incoming damage was so high, this would not make me 'like healer less', since the implication seems to be that I enjoy DPSing and non-healing support, and not the 'actual healing' portion of the role. I don't mind actually healing, I do it pretty often, you can see from my medians that I often say 'actually, fk this, I cba wiping because I greeded a damage GCD, I'm just gonna play safe so I can get this stupid weekly clear out of the way'. No, there's one thing that does piss me off more than anything in MMO design, and that's the idea that the best action to take at any point is 'no action at all'. Waiting around for 5sec rule for mana in Vanilla WOW was what had to be done, yes, but it was also trash design. The gaps in some class' rotations, like when I mained Ret in BFA and had up to 6 seconds of 'sorry everything is CD, just autoattack and wait for the fun buttons to light up again idiot', is terrible design. It's like driving a car that can go 70mph, but at seemingly random times the brakes apply and it locks itself to going 25mph for a few seconds. So in the same vein, if there was constant damage coming out that needed healing, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to having to spend every GCD on healing. In fact, it might make MP management an actual aspect of the game again. However, in the game's current state, that cannot happen without alienating an incredibly large portion of the playerbase, they won't be able to keep up. As we have been through many times, the amount of extra damage, or amount of healing kit pruning required to make it 'feel good to have to heal more', to the extent where it 'feels good' to someone like ME, is going to be too much for many other players to handle.

But to clarify my stance on what makes healer fun for me, because I didn't actually say it anywhere in that quote (only what I believe the healer role's duties/responsibilities in content are): It's actually the act of juggling everything, of making sure people live, making sure the mit goes out at the right times, making sure the debuffs are applied to the boss and damage buffs to allies, and keeping all of the plates spinning, and deciding that if one plate has to fall off because I can't keep up, WHICH plate has to fall so the others can keep spinning, those decisions are what make healer 'fun' to me. I didn't find it fun back in SB to be wholly focused on whether I mitigated damage correctly as a tank. I did find it fun to do so, while in damage stance (taking more damage cos no tankstance), making up the lack of defense with well timed mitigation, straddling the line of 'do I have enough aggro to outpace the DPS', occasionally dropping one GCD to apply tankstance as a pseudo-mitigation, making on-the-fly decisions about the current game-state and what the best course of action was in the moment. It's also why I don't actually enjoy DPS as a role that much, they don't have as much spinning plate gameplay going on, being almost wholly focused on 'just do as much damage as possible'

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Originally Posted by Payotz

That's what I think the game needs for healers. Engaging healer-related gameplay that's not simply just "extra DPS buttons", and that's what I personally want in a healer overhaul.
And frankly I don't think this is feasible as it will need every encounter in the game to be reworked, and will result in everyone else to be too scared to heal resulting in lower healer numbers.

A lot of people would complain about this, not because it's less engaging, but simply because it's too hard.

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I suggested a WHM change that included a new 0-100 gauge that fills by 1 point per Glare, 1 per Dia, 1 per DOT tick if there's at least one Dia present (multidot does not increase rate), and 5 per cast of a new Banish skill with a 15s CD. This gauge would be spent on a new GCD AOE heal skill with 500p (more than Rapture, less than Cure3), and has a system attached to make it damage neutral. The fact that I made the gauge only build via doing damage was an issue in Ren's eyes. There was also some other stuff like returning Stoneskin as a lily spending shielding tool (and an aoe equivalent).

I don't necessarily agree with your stance re: Disc, as it's notoriously punishing if you mess up the ramp. Rather, I think something more like Evoker would be better to aim for, where it does have a ramp of sorts (echo spreading), but in a pinch it has powerful, fast-access tools, Emerald Blossom, Spiritbloom, the 2min divebomb breath, that one cone breath heal I forgot the name of. In this game's systems, it'd be like what some of us have said about SGE: Give it a highly rewarding and technical damage>healing conversion system so that a fully optimal player can heal the team via just doing their damage rotation, but still have the fallback tools if things go sideways, like Prognosis. In fact, I put forward the idea that Prognosis (in the rework) should be 0 MP, because it's already costing you damage, and it should be an always-accessible, reliable 'everything is going wrong oh god oh shit' button for more casual/panic prone players to be able to spam.

The first thing that has to change about the healing model imo is the Pure/Barrier split. Either fully commit (so, remove Neutral Sect, remove Benison, remove the regen from Soil/Kera, etc), or write the split off as a design failure. Personally, I'd do the latter, it opens up so much more design space. For example, we've all seen 'you need to heal everyone to full' HPS checks like Seat of Sacrifice, right? What if we had every healer able to apply shields in some way, and there were 'shielding checks'? There used to be one, the original way to deal with Vulcan Burst in UWU was to shield enough that the damage didn't cause any HP loss. Now imagine stuff like that is added to the more casual parts of the game like dungeons. Imagine a boss in an EX roulette that applies a esuna-able bleed, and when you look at the description, it says 'Bleeding due to lacerations caused by boss's sharp tentacle tips. Fully negating the damage of the attack that applied this debuff will also negate the debuff's application.' Now you have two ways to deal with that bleed. Either shield beforehand so it never applies, or Esuna afterwards to remove it. Three in fact, if you also consider 'ignore it and heal through the damage'

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I mean, the answer is "some/many did, some didn't have an opinion either way, no one was really saying at the time it was a bad idea", or something akin to that. And yes, I agree people didn't see it coming - I've literally said this, what, 2 or 3 times now? - perhaps try reading my posts before hitting the reply button...

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Perhaps you should try reading mine.

You have a horrible tendency to ignore context. In three separate posts you directly put the blame on raiders or the "1%" as you kept insisting on calling them about the two minute meta and not the development team.

This whole debated started because you essentially said "the 1% didn't think about what they were asking for" despite it being impossible because they had zero frame of reference to even draw that conclusion.

Bluntly stated, you responded to me claiming these complaints only happened "after the fact" because "these people DID ask for this BEFORE hand." Putting aside the ridiculous notion SE would make sweeping changes based on parsers, you're putting the blame on raiders for not being clairvoyant.

Quote:

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The casual players didn't ask for this while raiders (SOME raiders, but RAIDERS did). You can't blame the change on casuals for what raiders wanted. Yoshi P said "skill floor", not "casuals", and while you think of the two as synonymous, what you call casuals aren't the skill floor as they aren't running high end content. What he's talking about are mid-core raiders.

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And you're still doing it.

What's comical is you use a modifier only to make an absolute statement in the very next sentence all while missing the point completely. I never said causals asked for this:

"All of that aside, no the casual players didn't ask for this but they are the reason it happened."

If you're going to accuse someone of not reading your responses, maybe you should actually read theirs.

That statement isn't trying to make casuals and skill floor synonymous. You're conflating two different things (again). What I said isn't an opinion, it's fact. They made these changes with casual players in mind because those were the players having perceived difficulty utilizing buffs correctly.

It isn't blaming any player demographic but simply acknowledging the root cause for why it happened. Casual players can be raiders who... play casually. Midcore players aren't struggling with buff timings nor does it change anything I said even if they were. The two minute meta was made for accessibility purposes not because any one demographic demanded it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

The overhaul I suggest would introduce ramping and healing rotations to healers, similar to how SAM ramps up to a Midare/Tsubame, Instead of having powerful healing spells available 24/7 like Medica 2/ Medica and Cure 3, the healers would have to do their healing rotations properly in order to gain access to those spells. It would require you to think about healing itself, rather than it being an afterthought like it is now (and it always has been) wherein you optimize your dps more and you relegate your healing abiltiies to a spreadsheet; And this will in turn make healing engaging, because everytime you have to think in a video game is the time where you are engaged.

A good example that I have is Disc Priest healing in a raid setting, wherein the spec heals through the buff called Atonement that lasts for 18 seconds, as 40%(give or take) of all damage you deal to a single target would be transferred to anyone with Atonement as healing:

Weak single target heals would apply as much Atonement to as many peopel as possible without the buff running out
Power Word: Radiance(can only apply Atonement to five people and you only have 2 charges every 20 seconds) would be used to apply Atonement to everyone else
then you use a cooldown to extend/buff Atonement or you forgo it completely for an emergency ramp
then you DPS the living shit out of the target just so you can heal everyone through the massive multiple raid wides that are coming out.

It's simple in concept yes, but there's multiple ways to fulfill every single step in that series of events, including the DPS portion.

That's what I think the game needs for healers. Engaging healer-related gameplay that's not simply just "extra DPS buttons", and that's what I personally want in a healer overhaul.
And frankly I don't think this is feasible as it will need every encounter in the game to be reworked, and will result in everyone else to be too scared to heal resulting in lower healer numbers.

A lot of people would complain about this, not because it's less engaging, but simply because it's too hard.

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Yea it is strange that you never build up anything in terms of healing abilities. At most it's 'is this skill on cooldown or not'. The darkest dungeon devs have massively revamped their approach to healing for the second game by making almost all dedicated heals need some kind of condition met first (target has to be below a certain threshold, target has to have another buff applied to it first).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yea it is strange that you never build up anything in terms of healing abilities. At most it's 'is this skill on cooldown or not'. The darkest dungeon devs have massively revamped their approach to healing for the second game by making almost all dedicated heals need some kind of condition met first (target has to be below a certain threshold, target has to have another buff applied to it first).

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The one heal that has a condition like that (beyond MP or gauge costs) is Essential Dignity's healing being scaled based on missing HP. Which just incentivizes players to ignore the HP of the ally for as long as possible. Why heal them for 400p when they're at 80% HP, when I could wait until they're at like 10% and the move has scaled to be like 1100p strong, that's three times as effective!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I don't necessarily agree with your stance re: Disc, as it's notoriously punishing if you mess up the ramp. Rather, I think something more like Evoker would be better to aim for, where it does have a ramp of sorts (echo spreading), but in a pinch it has powerful, fast-access tools, Emerald Blossom, Spiritbloom, the 2min divebomb breath, that one cone breath heal I forgot the name of.

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I agree, but I don't necessarily agree that every option needs to be as forgiving as Evoker. Evoker is considered the "easy M+ healer" precisely because of the easily available tools relative to other healers. I think a healer with that design is important however, as there needs to be an "easy" option (and a hard but rewarding and unforgiving option) for all the roles to focus more on the role itself rather than the rotation, and honestly I think WHM should be that healer.

I would have to think about your proposed skills and stuff a little bit more because I'm not really a game designer, I'm just a nerd who really likes talking about video games and has played a lot of video games and my only insight is what those other games do well and what they don't.

I would say that too many "oh shit" buttons for a healer or a tank makes the role less engaging because you feel like you're always safe, and that contributes a lot to the "sleeper" gameplay that those roles have across all content. There needs to be a little bit of friction in the design to increase engagement.

(Also I'm sorry. It's hard for me to read your walls of text in one sitting so I've just been reading it chunk by chunk and pressing Like on the thing. This one's a little bit shorter tho so here's a reply lmao)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Now imagine stuff like that is added to the more casual parts of the game like dungeons. Imagine a boss in an EX roulette that applies a esuna-able bleed, and when you look at the description, it says 'Bleeding due to lacerations caused by boss's sharp tentacle tips. Fully negating the damage of the attack that applied this debuff will also negate the debuff's application.' Now you have two ways to deal with that bleed. Either shield beforehand so it never applies, or Esuna afterwards to remove it. Three in fact, if you also consider 'ignore it and heal through the damage'

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Is the point that this is just esuna-able scamiglione’s cursed echo or not?
Maybe a tank vuln would work here too, shield through it or chuck a regen on to counter the increased auto damage. Also put autos back on bosses.
Similarly it would be interesting if doom was cleansable by healing to 100% inclusive or esuna to provide choice to the player. Except the one you stand on glowing things to fix.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

We have. I recognize you...

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Posting on an alt? Don't recall you at all. And if that's your take on my posts, you didn't read them.

Considering I have considerable "game-know-how" and don't advocate "to lobotomize Job designs further".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

But if there is one thing I'd like to request like I did back in the DPS-Subsection...

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Oh wait, no, I remember you know. Yeah, I definitely remember you...
Give me no post cap and sure, I'll make all posts shorter instead of bundling replies to several people. Make it happen and I'm game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I think the real takeaway is the seeming agreement that there is a problem in need of fixing. Unsurprisingly, the solution one favors colors how one describes what the problem is (tanks/DPS are busted with their mits and heals! no, it's the encounter that's busted for not dealing enough damage! no, healers need more interesting downtime! etc. etc. etc.).

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Yeah, this is true. As Sebezy said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Rather it's a lot of different perspectives on what the problem is.
...
It's a combination of the above and more that's gotten us to this point.

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Speaking of: I agree with that. It is a multifacited problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I disagree. I did say that many people like it now sure but...

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Many people do find it fun, interesting, and engaging.

And no, a more measured solution wouldn't be "high skill floor also the skill ceiling". That's not how that would work.

And for the record "ramp up" healing is a higher skill floor. That's why many games don't do it and just give Healers access to all their heals directly.

I do think it would be neat to see different variations on Healers, like SGE being a Disc Priest was honestly what I was thinking when they announced it. The problem is FFXIV's fight/encounter design and balance don't allow for it well.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

...

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When group A has members asking for a thing and group B has no members asking for a thing AND the thing doesn't actually benefit group B, trying to say it was done for group B and not admitting it was done at all for group A is kind of missing something.

As I said to you - that you didn't read - the midcore is who it was done for. Not "casuals". "casuals" doing Praetorium don't need buff alignment and may not even be using buffs. Same for "casuals" in Lapis Manalis or "casuals" RPing in Limsa or "casuals" farming NMs in Eureka. Those people aren't who these changes were for.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

(Also I'm sorry. It's hard for me to read your walls of text in one sitting so I've just been reading it chunk by chunk and pressing Like on the thing. This one's a little bit shorter tho so here's a reply lmao)

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On the one hand, here's the full list of my proposed skills/changes/stuff for WHM. The SGE one is okay too, but you can ignore the AST and SCH ones, they're kinda bad. On the other hand, it's less a 'wall of text' and moreso a barricade so you might need to take a break or two part way through. If nothing else, I think the most important thing is to check the two linked videos, as they demonstrate that even two relatively small changes (shortening Dia duration, adding a 15s GCD) can actually have quite a large shakeup on the rotation, thank in advance

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Is the point that this is just esuna-able scamiglione’s cursed echo or not?
Maybe a tank vuln would work here too, shield through it or chuck a regen on to counter the increased auto damage. Also put autos back on bosses.
Similarly it would be interesting if doom was cleansable by healing to 100% inclusive or esuna to provide choice to the player. Except the one you stand on glowing things to fix.

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Scar is one example, sure. Also, bringing up the doom is an interesting one, because we could also have that be blocked by shielding. For example, if you were to shield someone enough to take zero damage from the doll in Lapis, under this idea, it would block the doom. You'd also be able to Esuna the doom, or as you suggest, brute force heal through the doom and get the player to 100% to remove it. But I'm also thinking about the harder content where 'shielding blocks certain debuffs/effects' can be leveraged more. Vulcan Burst is the tip of the metaphorical iceberg on what it'd allow for, I think

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I do think it would be neat to see different variations on Healers, like SGE being a Disc Priest was honestly what I was thinking when they announced it. The problem is FFXIV's fight/encounter design and balance don't allow for it well.

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Agreed, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record. SE have the absolute perfect job/sacrificial lamb to throw under the experiment bus for this and it boggles my mind that they haven't had the bottle or been willing to put in the effort to at least try it for an expansion.

Take AST, throw it's DPS kit literally in the bin. Let them spend GCDs buffing team mates with some less efficient method of converting that into raw damage as needed for solo/msq content. Drop a 'totem' and throw cards at it to pulse an AoE or something. What matters is having a completely left of field healer that doesn't just slam nukes for the bulk of their GCDs like the rest. If it's really bad, there's 3 more healers for people to fall back on. If it's borderline, tweak it Creator style and see what happens. If it rocks, look at what can be done for another healer like Sadge.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

On the one hand, here's the full list of my proposed skills/changes/stuff for WHM. On the other hand, it's less a 'wall of text' and moreso a barricade so you might need to take a break or two part way through. If nothing else, I think the most important thing is to check the two linked videos, as they demonstrate that even two relatively small changes (shortening Dia duration, adding a 15s GCD) can actually have quite a large shakeup on the rotation, thank in advance

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I appreciate this. I'll give it a read over the weekend and if this thread is still alive then, I'll give you my thoughts. If it's not, I'll probably just necro bumb your thread and give you feedback there. Thank you for your ideas.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Many people do find it fun, interesting, and engaging.

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Oh I addressed that in many of my posts, like so:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

This would of course, alienate a lot of the core healers that they've gotten from the initial ShB combat overhaul, and that's not really a thing I would wish onto anyone. It sucks to have something you love taken away from you.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Oh I addressed this in my first post. I wouldn't want this to happen cause it would alienate a lot of the healers that do like the healing right now, and is the new core. I know how much it sucks to have something you love taken away from you, so I wouldn't really want that for anyone.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And no, a more measured solution wouldn't be "high skill floor also the skill ceiling". That's not how that would work.

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No that should be how it works. Higher skill floor and high skill ceiling would make the game a lot more engaging, because there is a lot of thought needed for it. Take League of Legends. They've been reworking a lot of the "stat stick" champions over time to be a lot more engaging, raising both the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling by removing point and click abilities and replacing them with skill shots.

The only real danger to this is accessibility, implying that doing the overhaul is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And for the record "ramp up" healing is a higher skill floor. That's why many games don't do it and just give Healers access to all their heals directly.

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Which in turn leads to less focus on healing as a result. Which is the same problem that FFXIV has, alongside many other games.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I do think it would be neat to see different variations on Healers, like SGE being a Disc Priest was honestly what I was thinking when they announced it. The problem is FFXIV's fight/encounter design and balance don't allow for it well.

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...that's what I've been saying this whole entire time? I thought we had a mutual understanding that this was the point you were arguing against.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I don't think they can even do an overhaul, cause that would require them remaking all the fights and content from HW -> EW.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I've seen this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense. They've done at least 2 major overhauls in healing during the game's history; one during HW (a shift towards more damage focus), another in SB (removal of Cleric), and another in ShB (shifting to the current paradigm of tons of big heals and super slim, even identical, DPS kits), and that's not counting the AST reworks, of which there have been at least two, and the removal of Nocturnal Stance in EW, and about to be another in 7.0.

They didn't redo all existing content either time.

WoW did a major focus shift from Wrath into Cataclysm because of the exact same problem with their healer design in Wrath (people were running 5 man Heroic dungeons with no Healers because Tanks were so OP), and they didn't redesign all prior content to match that paradigm, either.

Moreover, when FFXIV did the stat squish, they effectively retuned all existing content, and for unsync they added the Epic Echo.

It's not at all an unrealistic idea as it's already been done in various ways multiple times, both with and without changing prior encounters.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Agreed, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record. SE have the absolute perfect job/sacrificial lamb to throw under the experiment bus for this and it boggles my mind that they haven't had the bottle or been willing to put in the effort to at least try it for an expansion.

Take AST, throw it's DPS kit literally in the bin. Let them spend GCDs buffing team mates with some less efficient method of converting that into raw damage as needed for solo/msq content. Drop a 'totem' and throw cards at it to pulse an AoE or something. What matters is having a completely left of field healer that doesn't just slam nukes for the bulk of their GCDs like the rest. If it's really bad, there's 3 more healers for people to fall back on. If it's borderline, tweak it Creator style and see what happens. If it rocks, look at what can be done for another healer like Sadge.

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Somewhat agreed. I've been making this argument (or one very similar; not 1 but 3) for months now.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

No that should be how it works. Higher skill floor and high skill ceiling would make the game a lot more engaging, because there is a lot of thought needed for it. Take League of Legends. They've been reworking a lot of the "stat stick" champions over time to be a lot more engaging, raising both the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling by removing point and click abilities and replacing them with skill shots.

The only real danger to this is accessibility, implying that doing the overhaul is a bad idea.

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Again, "to you". What you might consider skill floor/ceiling others might NOT consider fun or engaging. Personally, I've never liked the more complex classes in League of Legends. Many people don't. The most played Jobs in FFXIV also happened to be the simplest ones in each role. The reason for that isn't because "people are lazy" as the Sylphie-haters will tell you. It's because not everyone wants or enjoys hypercomplex things. Just like not every DPSer in this game plays BLM, not everyone likes that sort of gameplay; many people like current gameplay.

My answer to this, for a while, has been "We have 4 Healer Jobs, we should make them different so they appeal to different types of players."

Misshapen Chair did a video a few months back where his conclusion was basically "Leave WHM alone for people that like healing now, give SGE its SB kit back, give AST Nocturnal stance back and its SB cards back, and make SGE into a galaxy brain DPS rotation thing and see if people embrace it or not; and everyone can play the one they want and not demand to be 'rewarded' with more damage, as 'having fun and not being bored' is your reward, so shut up about a measly 2% DPS difference".

...he was a bit more vulgar, mind you, but I pretty much agree. Here's the video: https://youtu.be/sbWubxOTUWU?t=672
"Healing In FFXIV Is Not Fun"

Right around that timestamp. The whole video's worth a watch, too.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

...that's what I've been saying this whole entire time? I thought we had a mutual understanding that this was the point you were arguing against.

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No, I'm against a total and complete overhaul of healing and all Healer Jobs. I highly support some (but not all) Healer Jobs to be adjusted to be more distinct and engage players that enjoy different playstyles. It's been my position for over a year now.

If healers are made too complicated then it would drive more away from Healing. A lot of players don't Heal even when it's not too hard to Heal in FF14.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Again, "to you". What you might consider skill floor/ceiling others might NOT consider fun or engaging. Personally, I've never liked the more complex classes in League of Legends. Many people don't. The most played Jobs in FFXIV also happened to be the simplest ones in each role. The reason for that isn't because "people are lazy" as the Sylphie-haters will tell you. It's because not everyone wants or enjoys hypercomplex things. Just like not every DPSer in this game plays BLM, not everyone likes that sort of gameplay; many people like current gameplay.

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Oh I don't disagree with that at all. Simply put, the core playerbase has been replaced by the people who DO like the current healer design. It's kinda what I've said here:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I don't think they can even do an overhaul, cause that would require them remaking all the fights and content from HW -> EW. I honestly don't really know what they can do other than to preserve the game state from ARR -> EW and try and make kits that function differently 7.0 onwards. This would of course, alienate a lot of the core healers that they've gotten from the initial ShB combat overhaul, and that's not really a thing I would wish onto anyone. It sucks to have something you love taken away from you.

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That's why I don't think an actual true overhaul could happen. The ship has sailed. SE has been cultivating a core playerbase that prefer this type of casual, light "healing" gameplay for about 4-5 years and chasing away all the other parts of the community. There is no way I can advocate for alienating even that considering they spend a lot more money on the mogstation than the ones who just raidlog all day.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, I'm against a total and complete overhaul of healing and all Healer Jobs. I highly support some (but not all) Healer Jobs to be adjusted to be more distinct and engage players that enjoy different playstyles. It's been my position for over a year now.

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Oh then this is where I would disagree. You are one of the core players and it's clear that you are the target audience for these changes.
I don't think there's any point of discussion any longer because simply put, we just simply disagree.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

If healers are made too complicated then it would drive more away from Healing. A lot of players don't Heal even when it's not too hard to Heal in FF14.

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It goes both ways. If healers are too easy, then it also drives people away.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

It goes both ways. If healers are too easy, then it also drives people away.

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Well, what benefits the game more?

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Well, what benefits the game more?

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Both.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

When group A has members asking for a thing and group B has no members asking for a thing AND the thing doesn't actually benefit group B, trying to say it was done for group B and not admitting it was done at all for group A is kind of missing something.

As I said to you - that you didn't read - the midcore is who it was done for. Not "casuals". "casuals" doing Praetorium don't need buff alignment and may not even be using buffs. Same for "casuals" in Lapis Manalis or "casuals" RPing in Limsa or "casuals" farming NMs in Eureka. Those people aren't who these changes were for.

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Says the person who still is missing the point themselves. You're so close too. One more time, from the top!

Per your example, Group B not asking for a change and the change being made for them aren't mutually exclusive.

You are correct something is missing. That something is the dev team perceiving their was a problem to begin with and attempting to fix it based on the assumption players who weren't utilizing buffs correctly were only doing so because they were confused when to use them. Therefore, making everything lineup would seemingly fix this perceived problem. We've seen them do this time and again in various forms. Kaiten is a prime example. Yoshida was criticised on the actual stream from JP of all demographics for that change because nobody asked for it. Nor did they like the Ninja changes accompanying it. Once again, the dev team perceived Kaiten was an issue for casual players and essentially fixed a problem that never really existed .

No mate. Your argument just wasn't good to begin with. But keep insisting I never read it. Like I said, whether you want to attribute the changes to "casuals" or "midcore" despite the fact both can raid, which you seemingly ignored, the perception from the dev team is what matters here. And it doesn't change literally anything I said. To summarize it for you, the dev team created a solution to a problem they believed existed based on players not utilizing buffs correctly and overcorrected without making adjustments to crit variance or considering the impact of larger potency abilities, which created an even bigger problem than the one they attempted to fix that didn't even exist

All this circles back to your original post trying to put blame on the raid community. That's it. You blamed raiders instead of the dev team. If you want to call them midcore instead, well, we're back to semantics again because midcore players aren't struggling with buffs. You're conflating things... again. The whole purpose of these changes is to try and incentivize casual players to give raiding a shot and to make the barrier of entry easier.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Someone, somewhere, will "judge" them for not being perfect because they're dirty evil elitist casual-hating raiders.

And then the insecurity that's behind their entire position neatly reveals itself. Every time.

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Exactly.

It's funny because they are also a curebot. They casted a lot of healing casts, sure... but both DPS and HPS are of a certain color... I'll leave people to see what it is themselves lol.

They can talk about being a real healer all they want but typically these curebots aren't healing efficiently and cleanly either. If you put them into something like o8s with old SB toolkits and tell them healer DPS doesn't matter they probably can't handle it.