Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by UsagiAndCrepes

So you can choose to experience outrage or acceptance, it's up to you really.

The net product seems to remain the same either way however.

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I doubt anyone here is actually outraged, just disappointed that something so simple seems to be such a foreign concept to so many people on this game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

[Re. learning AoE avoidance] There's a proper exercise in the Hall of the Novice for heals and iirc dps that teach you exactly that.

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Yes, but also no. What the exercise taught me was that the pattern to AoE warning markers was:

1. Warning marker appears
2. Warning marker disappears
3. Nothing happens for a second or so
4. Enemy attacks previously-marked spot

During the exercise, you want to make sure you pass, so move out of the marker as soon as it appears, but in a real battle situation you want to keep attacking for as long as you can, in which case it seems intuitive that the *disappearance* of the marker is your sign to get out of the way in that short space of time between the marker disappearing and the actual attack beginning.

However, what actually happens is:

1. Warning marker appears
2. Warning marker disappears, and anyone still standing in it will be counted as hit by the attack
3. It's now safe to re-enter the previously marked zone
4. You can stand in the middle of the visible explosion and not get hit, while the newbie standing apparently well clear of it will take damage.

This is what's not explained, and goes against what you might naturally expect to happen.

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Originally Posted by Xeon

Stupidest thread ever. People should be able to play how they want to.

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/facepalm

You know why you say that? You haven't been in a party where 7 other people do exactly what the OP said: spam 1 button skill and think its okay. And you haven't been in them enough. I want to see you clear content over and over with those kind of people. I want you to solo heal an 8man raid/trial because your co-healer spams only one skill and you can only hope that's at least med 2 and not aero 3. I want you to dps while your other dps casts blizzard over and over and over again and still say "people should be able to play how they want to. good job mage"

So easy to talk smack when you haven't been in the bad long enough.

Unfortunately this has been the norm for this game and many more like it, there were the same issues in WoW, and terra unfortunately some people just offer nothing in terms of team play....

Haven’t exactly figured out how to even counter this?

Tell a dps to aoe you get screamed at or kicked, tell a tank not to pull to much because they have no clue on cd usage same end result, tell a healer to dps because the tank needs like zero healing same result, so it’s become norm because people just stopped trying to deal with it and played with their friends instead

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Originally Posted by Canadane

When they went and nerfed Steps of Faith because it'd have blocked people out of expansion content, it was the probably the biggest indicator that being a poor performer was "okay".

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Which I found funny because I'd never had a wipe on that with a PUG until about 2 months after it was added and I was one of the first people to clear it on my server.

The same happened with Shinryu in SB.

We need to gate more stuff behind trials that require ppl to actually think and have at least basic knowledge of what a battle mechanic is and how their job is supposed to perform... >.>

This isn't your 90's offline console RPG where you can just cheese everything with your gameshark, game genie, or action replay. I sorely miss a great deal of the additional variables from FFXI where damage types and elements had an extremely noticeable impact on damage dealt and received and making the leader of one of my linkshells delvl every time we went to sky because he would never get an exp buffer :3

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

linkshells delvl every time we went to sky because he would never get an exp buffer :3

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The sound of ultimate suffering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTIwBDNDO4M

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And people do the basics fine. If they don't, you'd be all complaining about how half of your expert runs end in failure, or how you have to do everything in statics because you can't even trust the duty finder for a simple leveling roulette. People really overrate how many bad players there are, and how often they show up in normal play. My guess is that the OP is tired of yet another farm party wiping, probably shinryu ex.

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Because better players are forced to compensate. Just this week I was top five DPS against Mateus while playing White Mage. A healer contributed more DPS to the raid than Samurais, Ninjas, Summoners and etc. Had I been one of those healers who scarcely does more than the name implied, we're that much closer to not meeting the check at all. Just early this morning, a friend and I had a Ninja who died to almost every single mechanic—even directly standing in a few. While some players may have had lower tier gear, others were full 340 yet couldn't perform a simple rotation or deal with any mechanic more difficult than an auto-attack. By your definition, that's perfectly okay since we still eventually cleared. I, on the other hand, had no desire to carry a Ninja who was straining my MP pool with all the raises. He was swiftly kicked.

You claim people overrate bad players yet how much of the harder content do you participate in? Your anecdotal experiences are no more valid than mine, and I can assure you, the amount of players I have come across in everything ranging from Savage down to dungeons who have little to no idea what they're doing is staggering. And no, they aren't first timers but supposed "veterans." Come to think of it, that reminds me of a time someone actually used her veteran status to claimed I was a poor healer for allowing people to drop below 80%. She insisted anyone doing that was an idiot because "I've been playing since beta. I should know." But I suppose that's okay too right? After all, can't hurt anyone's feelings by expecting they do more than bang their heads on a keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Xeon

Stupidest thread ever. People should be able to play how they want to. There are players of every skill level. There are too many people like yourself that ridicule others because they don't or aren't capable of playing to your competitive level.

Are you good at everything? Have you ever not played / done anything where you weren't good at but still did so anyway because it was enjoyable? And how would it make you feel if you did your best but it just wasn't good enough? Quit being so competitive and just play the game already.

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Never imagined asking someone to press 1-2-3 was a daunting request. What say you to being in a party where...

Your WHM casts nothing but Medica II
Your PLD only uses Flash and maybe an occasionally uncombo'd Rage of Halone
Your DRG spams Impulse Drive

Suddenly you're looking at a 40+ minute dungeon, if you even clear to begin with. Just remember, you can't complain because "people should be able to play how they want."

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As of this time, I have all but 3 jobs at 70. I've played for about 3 years I think, and I had all 60s by the end of HW. Apart from basic "learning the content" that happens during the first week or two of a patch, I've not seen anywhere near the level of "being bad" people keep complaining about. I haven't abandoned leveling content once, unless someone says "nope aurum vale" and leaves at start. People are thinking the rare cases of being bad are so much worse and frequent than they really are.

The real subjects that tend to come up with this tend to be EX-level pugs. People complain because they can't find decent farm parties, or if the primal is hard enough, clears.

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Your personal anecdotes do not prove that bad parties don’t exist outside of the first few days/weeks of new content.

I’ve never been robbed. Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to other people every single day.

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Originally Posted by winsock

What you want is unreasonable to expect, so your argument is pointless.

As with any group-based activity in life, there is no guarantee that people for that group-based activity are going to have that minimum level of competency/contribution you are referring to; as such, it is unreasonable to expect a pug to possess this level ofcompetence 100% of the time. If you cannot accept this truth of pugging, you have the option of not pugging.

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Your right, it is called getting fired, expect a kick if you are on pace for 30+ min clear because you can't do basic things:

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

This is a thing from making the game too easy, thus too easy to carry people

The reverse of design will effect players, just look at old ffxi. Was a lot less tolerated there.



?????
15-18 mins = GOOD PT! lets toss out coms to each other like Oprah gives away cars
19-25 mins = acceptable
26-35 mins = wonders how people get to this level, esp if "expert" is taking this long
36 mins + likely a troll premade, people standing around not doing nothing

Anything over 30+ is time wasted, there is no reason it should take that long, unless the group is sitting there for a tank replacement (ask ls etc after 2 mins though, works wonders)

If people are taking a long time because they are not listening to advice (like on a 30+ min pace for clear), a kick is valid.

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last expert, start time, 14:05, end 14:23, 18 mins, solo queue as SMN.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As of this time, I have all but 3 jobs at 70. I've played for about 3 years I think, and I had all 60s by the end of HW. Apart from basic "learning the content" that happens during the first week or two of a patch, I've not seen anywhere near the level of "being bad" people keep complaining about. I haven't abandoned leveling content once, unless someone says "nope aurum vale" and leaves at start. People are thinking the rare cases of being bad are so much worse and frequent than they really are.

The real subjects that tend to come up with this tend to be EX-level pugs. People complain because they can't find decent farm parties, or if the primal is hard enough, clears.

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You either do not know how to see it, or extremely lucky, pick one. I do not care if someone is pure lv 70 while all jobs are in current raid gear, some people do not have observance skills. It was not too long ago like a week? two at the most, where I had a personal tie to someone that ran an expert where she was able to pass a vote abandon after the first boss, this was. the tri-premade(likely troll) kicked her after complaining too much people where way under subpar in performance since it should not be taking 2-3 minutes to clear every pull. In fact this is the pure reason she does not even queue as healer anymore because of too much stress of carrying. At least as DPS it can be reasonable if the other DPS is simply "passing" or can make good runs like the 18 min one I commented on.

Bad play is insanely common, and more common then meeting 3 good players in the same DF. Another recent expert, a tank died due to not using CDs or something (no idea, was commenting she was not focused in looking at this kind of thing as a DPS) The tank blamed the healer for the wipe, and the healer blamed the tank for taking too much damage, The tank ragequit logged out of the game and got a replacement. They did the megapull, where you pull end of second boss to last boss (full thing) and did fine. So because of that seemed it was the ragequit tank to blame.

I have a few questions concerning weapons in content (I brought up something similar to the DF thread):

A person enters a Skalla run with mostly 310 gear, but has an ilvl 260 weapon with the intention of gaining light for their anima relic. Do you think this is respectful or disrespectful? Also would you want to go through the potential trouble of asking that person to switch to a higher item level weapon? Finally, in the event the person refuses to switch, would you put up with relic grinder with a weapon that has an item level way below the required item level number?

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I have a few questions concerning weapons in content (I brought up something similar to the DF thread):

A person enters a Skalla run with mostly 310 gear, but has an ilvl 260 weapon with the intention of gaining light for their anima relic. Do you think this is respectful or disrespectful? Also would you want to go through the potential trouble of asking that person to switch to a higher item level weapon? Finally, in the event the person refuses to switch, would you put up with relic grinder with a weapon that has an item level way below the required item level number?

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It’s both disrespectful and uninformed on their part, because Stormblood content does not give light for Heavensward relics, last I heard.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s both disrespectful and uninformed on their part, because Stormblood content does not give light for Heavensward relics, last I heard.

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He didn't mention that in the other thread he said he bailed without even asking if the guy meant to do the run that way. I know I've forgotten to switch back to a level appropriate weapon when light grinding. You can't say it was either without asking.

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Originally Posted by savageink

He didn't mention that in the other thread he said he bailed without even asking if the guy meant to do the run that way. I know I've forgotten to switch back to a level appropriate weapon when light grinding. You can't say it was either without asking.

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I’m not referencing his DF thread post (which I have not read). I’m referencing the post he made in this thread, which asked specifically if the person was being disrespectful entering Level 70 content with a relic from an entire expansion ago, and not switching it out for a more level-appropriate weapon.

If the person enters into Level 70 content with a weapon from an entire expansion ago, and refuses to switch upon being told “You’re wearing an outdated weapon”, it’s disrespectful.
If the person enters into Level 70 content with a relic from ARR or HW attempting to gain light for it, it’s uninformed, because SB content does not give aetheric condensation for older relics.

If his post in this thread is insinuating that the person entered Skalla without being aware that he was still using his i260 weapon, that is unclear, because the wording suggests he entered Skalla intentionally wearing the weapon to gain light from the content.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m not referencing his DF thread. I’m referencing the post he made in this thread.
If the person enters into Level 70 content with a weapon from an entire expansion ago, and refuses to switch, it’s disrespectful.
If the person enters into Level 70 content with a relic from ARR or HW attempting to gain light for it, it’s uninformed, because SB content does not give aetheric condensation for older relics.

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yes, but we don't know if he would have refused to switch, he was never asked. you also don't know if he was trying to get light in the dungeon because he was also never asked. disrespect and level of information held by the person you are talking about was never established. it cannot be established without interaction. we might as well ask if it's disrespectful and uninformed to join a DF run and leave without asking a person's intention when running with an i260 anima.

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Originally Posted by savageink

yes, but we don't know if he would have refused to switch, he was never asked. you also don't know if he was trying to get light in the dungeon because he was also never asked. disrespect and level of information held by the person you are talking about was never established. it cannot be established without interaction. we might as well ask if it's disrespectful and uninformed to join a DF run and leave without asking a person's intention when running with an i260 anima.

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Dirk, have you tried to get Aetheric Condensation in Stormblood Content?

I mean if anyone wants to use an item level 260 weapon to get their relic lights. That is fine as long as it's stuff like Alexander runs, or even Stormblood Dungeons if you want to test the waters of getting light. But having a lower item level weapon while doing Expert Roulette at this phase of the game just doesn't sit well with me. Especially, if the other two party members have item level 300-310 weapons from the beginning of the run.

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Originally Posted by savageink

yes, but we don't know if he would have refused to switch, he was never asked. you also don't know if he was trying to get light in the dungeon because he was also never asked. disrespect and level of information held by the person you are talking about was never established. it cannot be established without interaction. we might as well ask if it's disrespectful and uninformed to join a DF run and leave without asking a person's intention when running with an i260 anima.

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Rokku’s Post in this thread is entirely separate from his DF thread post. You’re mixing the two, assuming that his post here is meant to be the same as the one he made in the DF thread. The only note he has made is that he made a similar comment about this in the DF thread. Separate the two, because the don’t have anything to do with one another in this current discussion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Rokku’s Post in this thread is entirely separate from his DF thread post. You’re mixing the two, assuming that his post here is meant to be the same as the one he made in the DF thread. The only note he has made is that he made a similar comment about this in the DF thread. Separate the two, because the don’t have anything to do with one another in this current discussion.

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Thank you Hyomin. The other thread is me saying what happened to me. This thread has me asking what would happen if the person who read my question experienced a similar situation and how he/she would feel about it in a hypothetical sense.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Dirk, have you tried to get Aetheric Condensation in Stormblood Content?

I mean if anyone wants to use an item level 260 weapon to get their relic lights. That is fine as long as it's stuff like Alexander runs, oreven Stormblood Dungeons if you want to test the waters of getting light. But having a lower item level weapon while doing Expert Roulette at this phase of the game just doesn't sit well with me. Especially, if the other two party members have item level 300-310 weapons from the beginning of the run.

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All I'm saying is you don't know why the guy had an old weapon equipped. You never asked him. I've gotten a few pulls in on newer dungeons while wondering why the hell my damage is shit, before realizing i forgot to switch weapons. It's not like people at level cap don't get 290 weapons free when they do their job quests. So, everybody should have something to switch to. Tossing around "disrespect" and "uninformed" when you have no idea what they were thinking is just kind of silly.

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Originally Posted by savageink

All I'm saying is you don't know why the guy had an old weapon equipped. You never asked him. I've gotten a few pulls in on newer dungeons while wondering why the hell my damage is shit, before realizing i forgot to switch weapons. It's not like people at level cap don't get 290 weapons free when they do their job quests. So, everybody should have something to switch to. Tossing around "disrespect" and "uninformed" when you have no idea what they were thinking is just kind of silly.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

A person enters a Skalla run with mostly 310 gear, but has an ilvl 260 weapon with the intention of gaining light for their anima relic.

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The scenario presented in this thread’s post. The person willingly queued into Skalla with an i260 weapon to try and get light for their relic. Which you cannot do, because SB content does not offer light for HW or ARR relics, just like HW content won’t offer light for ARR relics.

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Do you think this is respectful or disrespectful?

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My answer was: it’s disrespectful AND uninformed on that player’s part. Even if light was given for SB content, queuing into an Expert Roulette/into a level 70 dungeon and gimping yourself that much is disrespectful to the randoms you get matched with. If you wanted to do it in a pre-made, fine. But keep it in a pre-made.

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Also would you want to go through the potential trouble of asking that person to switch to a higher item level weapon? Finally, in the event the person refuses to switch, would you put up with relic grinder with a weapon that has an item level way below the required item level number?

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Other questions I did not address, but will do so here.

I would mention to the person “You’re wearing an i260 weapon in a level 70 dungeon; please switch”. If they refuse to switch, again, disrespectful. There is nothing in [b]this specific post[/i] that is insinuating the Relic grinder is unaware of his i260 weapon, nor that he would not switch upon being asked. It’s setting up the scenario in such a way to illustrate that he intentionally joined a random level 70 dungeon party in order to gain light for a relic from an entire expansion ago. It’s also setting up the condition that he is refusing to switch upon being asked.

Stop thinking about other posts in different threads, because the post presented in this one, while of a similar nature, is unrelated to the other thread.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Thank you Hyomin. The other thread is me saying what happened to me. This thread has me asking what would happen if the person who read my question experienced a similar situation and how he/she would feel about it in a hypothetical sense.

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Rokku even says he is not connecting the two posts, but that they are entirely separate from one another.
Please use a bit of reading comprehension before jumping into a discussion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Rokku’s Post in this thread is entirely separate from his DF thread post. You’re mixing the two, assuming that his post here is meant to be the same as the one he made in the DF thread. The only note he has made is that he made a similar comment about this in the DF thread. Separate the two, because the don’t have anything to do with one another in this current discussion.

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I find it disingenuous to leave out that he knew nothing about what the other guy was thinking because he bailed without asking. And your answers also would require that knowledge for them to be informed.

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Originally Posted by savageink

I find it disingenuous to leave out that he knew nothing about what the other guy was thinking because he bailed without asking. And your answers also would require that knowledge for them to be informed.

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I see that you don’t understand what a “hypothetical scenario” type of question is, in which all the information is given, and a question about reactions is being posed, presuming all knowledge/intentions are known.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Rokku even says he is not connecting the two posts, but that they are entirely separate from one another.
Please use a bit of reading comprehension before jumping into a discussion.

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Lol! It's the same post except he left out the part where he bailed without asking. Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

snip.

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Yes and no, this is the “lazy” part people speak of because you can easily YouTube or google a rotation and even advanced optimization’s, class comps, bis gear, and everything else lol this game is not hard it just requires people to put forth effort...but yes there could be more ways in turns of helping new players but they also should know where to go for information because it’s the same with all mmos google, forums, Reddit, etc...

People aren’t just great from the start these “pros” people speak of just dedicate more time into learning their jobs and or positions which is the same opportunity everyone else has...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I see that you don’t understand what a “hypothetical scenario” type of question is, in which all the information is given, and a question about reactions is being posed, presuming all knowledge/intentions are known.

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Maybe if it was hypothetical, I'd care.

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Originally Posted by savageink

Lol! It's the same post except he left out the part where he bailed without asking. Give me a break.

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He said that he is presenting a hypothetical scenario entirely separate from his DF post; a scenario in which all the information about intent/purpose is known (i.e., it is known that the person joined a random Skalla run—or we could be even more broad and just say “Level 70 content”—specifically to gain light for an old Relic, it is known that they have been asked to switch their weapons, and it is known that they refused to do so because they want light).

Again, stop mixing this thread’s post and another thread’s post together, because they are being presented in two entirely separate ways (one is a personal experience, the other is a hypothetical situation asking for other people’s responses to a presented situation).

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Originally Posted by savageink

Maybe if it was hypothetical, I'd care.

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Alright. I see that this is going nowhere since, even when presented with the fact that the post in this thread is entirely hypothetical and separate from a post in a completely different thread, you refuse to acknowledge and contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. Have a nice evening.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I have a few questions concerning weapons in content (I brought up something similar to the DF thread):

A person enters a Skalla run with mostly 310 gear, but has an ilvl 260 weapon with the intention of gaining light for their anima relic. Do you think this is respectful or disrespectful? Also would you want to go through the potential trouble of asking that person to switch to a higher item level weapon? Finally, in the event the person refuses to switch, would you put up with relic grinder with a weapon that has an item level way below the required item level number?

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Change weapon or get kicked, i will say that. If people are abusing the DF in that way, they need change the rules. I am tried of people thinking it is ok just because the system allows it to.

@savageink, stop the back and forth, HyoMinPark is right, you can't assume people know the full story or the story being referenced (they might of changed the implied idea from it btw), what I said is what I would do with the content in said post. Would I want to go though it? NO because most of the time even if you ask in a way "Do you have a different weapon for this place, I think you forgot to change weapons" people will give some kind of snide/aggressive reply more then not.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

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What you seem to not be getting is that no one is enforcing "their" standard. That is where your attempts at an argument fall apart. We're talking about a reasonable standard. Would you not consider being geared at minimum ilvl a reasonable standard and not a player enforced one? That's not the player saying "you need gear at this level at least for this", that's the game itself saying it. Would you consider a max level to be a reasonable standard by which to have an understanding, even if basic, of a job and how it works? Is it not reasonable to expect a max level tank to be capable of holding aggro and utilizing defensive cooldowns as needed? By all means, explain where "reasonable standard" is somehow lost in translation here.

I'm not going to even entertain your attempt at trying to break down my "sports" metaphor. And before you even think about trying to play the "well you're just dodging it because you can't give a rebuttal" bit, no, I'm not dodging it one bit. But neither one of us would get anything substantial from me deconstructing a weak argument or talking down to you. Not when there are bigger points that are being missed here. So, effectively, think what you want on that one, but bring a better argument before you try breaking mine down.

Lastly, you seem to have stopped at my mention of Brayflox, attempting to form your rebuttal right then and there. The larger point of that tangent was to point out that the dungeon is subtle in pushing players to learn things that they'll be dealing with forever after, and in a way that begins to sow the seeds of effective team play in their understanding of general gameplay, and how their job/role fits into it. I noted that newer players make fewer mistakes there in the learning environment than some endgame players make in endgame content, where it becomes time to skillfully apply what was learned. And again, would you not call it reasonable to expect more competency and fewer missteps from an experienced player (at least as level would dictate) than a newer player?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I see that this is going nowhere since, even when presented with the fact that the post in this thread is entirely hypothetical and separate from a post in a completely different thread, you refuse to acknowledge and contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. Have a nice evening.

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What's there to discuss? This version of the story was presented to get agreement.

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Originally Posted by savageink

What's there to discuss? This version of the story was presented to get agreement.

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read my post, also:

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Originally Posted by savageink

I find it disingenuous to leave out that he knew nothing about what the other guy was thinking because he bailed without asking. And your answers also would require that knowledge for them to be informed.

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ITS NOT THE POINT HERE! now stop. If you want to debate the issues you have with the story there, do so there! stop putting things in RokkuEkkusu's mouth:

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Thank you Hyomin. The other thread is me saying what happened to me. This thread has me asking what would happen if the person who read my question experienced a similar situation and how he/she would feel about it in a hypothetical sense.

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he flat out said it is a different topic being talked about, now STOP! RokkuEkkusu can speak what he means, he does not need you misrepresenting his point.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Tell a dps to aoe you get screamed at or kicked, tell a tank not to pull to much because they have no clue on cd usage same end result, tell a healer to dps because the tank needs like zero healing same result, so it’s become norm because people just stopped trying to deal with it and played with their friends instead

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in other words we people have stopped asking the poor players to git gut or kicking them and instead we carry them through the content when we meet them.

wich further means we people made poor play acceptable.

but we were not alone. the poor players themself made poor play acceptable when they refused to unlock pharos sirius or immediately left when they got it in roulette, back in 2.1. after that sqaure begun to nerf old dungeons and the dungeons they added new were much easier (oh no, i am so bad and i refuse to get better, i have to run away from this dungeon!).

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Sigh...look, once you start obsessing over shoddy play and wondering why others aren't pulling their weight, you start viewing the game as a job. You invest way too much significance into it and get bothered way too much by the actions of others, in a way you simply shouldn't as a game.

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Come on now, Riyah. You're a healer. You of ALL people should really understand the irony of that statement.

To all the healers here: Is it fun or is it unnecessary extra WORK to heal that one guy that stands in everything and gets hit by things he can otherwise avoid with plenty of time and even just the most basic awareness? Is it "fun" when you see someone doing it wrong, you KNOW they're doing it wrong, and once they pay the price for it, they look at you to blame? Is it more fun for you, or more work for you when someone shows a disregard (or worse, complete lack of awareness) for teamwork?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...40/658/5e8.jpg

Poor players will always be a thing so long as people enable the behaviour.

Terrible players will always be terrible.
Idiots will always defend them.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

You say this:



Then you say this:


Runs take longer when people make mistakes. It looks like you are expecting perfection, otherwise people are wasting your time. Your expectations are silly. You do a 12 minute run with your FC, therefore all runs should be 12 minutes. Really? If you are going to pug stuff, you need to accept the fact that you will be working with people of varying levels of skill and experience. Sometimes it's a great group, sometimes it's just average. Maybe people are playing something than their main job. Sometimes people have a bad run. It happens. We're human(most of us anyway). If you are going to complain about your time being wasted because a run takes 8 minutes longer than it does with your FC, maybe you should stick to single player games where you won't have other people wasting your time.

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I should have been more specific. It was to demonstrate the amount of time lost and to argue that people should be sensible and try their best. I am not expecting 12 minute runs outside of my FC, I am expecting people to know their job and respect my time and the rest of the party their time. I thought that was pretty clear, but apparently it wasn't. I'm usually just fine when a run with pugs lasts twenty minutes if everyone is doing a decent job. I'm also fine when a Sastasha normal mode lasts 25 minutes if people are new and for example want to take in the scenery. I'd thought people would be clever enough to take this context for granted. What I do not think is fine, and this is the point I originally made is when the run lasts 20 minutes for example due to one player not even knowing how to aoe at 70. Or those two healers that do zero DPS and die more often than not in Primal farm. Hope that clarifies things a bit.

I think, while people now start talking about the diversing skill of the players, the kind of people op talks about are perfectly summed up in this picture:

https://i.imgur.com/kL5GOfL.png

Now, we would all agree that playing with stickman on the left would not be a fun experience because he is not playing tic tac toe, he is just scribbling on the paper, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I would be fine with it. I enter any duty with assumption it could take full time. Anything less is a bonus to me.

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Somehow I have a really hard time to believe that you would be fine with it each and every run. Are you alright with this if you are in a farm group? Wiping the whole 60 minutes in one trial? I mean people have a different amount of time that they can play the game. I am not sure if someone would love a full run if the only have like 2 hours per day to play. (Half of the time would be gone just for one trial.) I mean I have no problems if that happens sometimes (at least in 24 man runs) but each time?

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About the sport argument: Honestly there is a difference with just being fans that are watching something and you playing it. As a fan it would be kinda strange not to know some things but you are still just watching it. But the examples that were posted did not mean just watching but meeting to play it. Thats a huge difference. So yes if you are just a fan you might not need to know the basics (but why would you be a fan if you dont even understand it?) but as soon as you start playing it with others you need the knowledge. I wish I could see a situation where the ones that are arguing against at least the basic would watch something where some players dont play it good (in real life sport). Why do I have the feeling that they would dislike it? ;)

@RiyahArp: But just because you did not see someone that bad does not mean that they dont exit. I did write a post about the one monk who did not have any basic idea of their job..and the 200 DPS BLM. They thankfully are not the majority but honestly I still have enough people in the few runs I do that are just not good and that only manage to clear it thanks to the rest of the party..(thankfully paladins have some self heals..)

The only thing that we can do right now is either: educate them and deal with the poor play or avoid them by not playing with randoms or kicking them out. Untill there is a non-bannable way to show someone that they are playing poorly, I fear this situation will not change.

I reckon we will see SE, close the skill gap between the bad players and good players, then see them add a tool that shows who is playing poorly or not.

Playing poorly is acceptable in specific content. That's because the stage before getting good is being bad and possibly not knowing it. Improving performance entails first being at a lower level of performance, then realizing it, and later being at a higher level of performance. Depending on the game content it should be expected to run into the players who have not yet improved or realized the need to.

This content is usually leveling content, but since the jump potions were introduced the game has "started" from level 60 for some people. If you expect everyone in Sirensong (or lower content) always to have a grasp of the game when it is possible someone totally new to gaming could be in your party, well it's just unrealistic expectations. However the later leveling dungeons and Shinryu are pretty good at training players so it's very rare to encounter totally hopeless players in max level content. But if it happens to you and it bothers you, then all you can do is be a good example and guide people to ensure they realize their need and areas to improve. Sometimes guidance involves kicking those with bad attitude.

Well, but there's a limit. The example of the WAR spamming Butcher's Block (No combo'd). I'd argue about it, but I've SEEN PLD's spamming uncombo'd RoH too. Or DPS using their finisher and not their combo chain. It's the very basic, you even learn your skills progressively and the tooltips tell you how these are enhanced by doing them in a succession. I've seen all that. Then you have the auto-attacker DPS, the no CD tanks that won't use AoE threat in dungeons, the "I'm standing still" healer that will use a healing spell sometime and see you die. Yes, I've witnessed all of that and I branded their rear with my boot.

But nope, you call them out and you're suddenly the elitist, the one taking this game "as a job". People making exaggerations like "expecting perfect gameplay from pugs", because the basics clearly mean perfection! Right? no? oh.

Get real, people. Stop trying to act like a "holier-than-thou" person and stop protecting these attitudes. That's wrong. Game or not, it has its rules, like every other game. Will you score goals against your team in a football match? Will you grab the golf ball, walk and place it in the hole with your hand? No, you don't do that. Games have rules, a meant to be played. The basics. It's not fair for others to carry you, because you "treating it like a game and not caring", are placing a unwanted burden on the rest of the group. You're part of a team, otherwise just go and play alone.

I'm disappointed with some people's attitude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Now, we would all agree that playing with stickman on the left would not be a fun experience because he is not playing tic tac toe, he is just scribbling on the paper, right?

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Applying this to ffxiv, I'd attempt to kick the left stickman. Not because of his performance, but because of his attitude. He could have even played the game correctly but if he's going to be hurling insults at his party he may be forced to find a new one.

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

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Are...you trying to insinuate that everyone who plays poorly must be doing so because they are young? Because I don’t think that’s the case for a lot of them. Are you going to try to say that we should treat them like they’re young because we don’t know for sure if they aren’t or not? Because I’m not going to start automatically thinking that poor players automatically equals “Oh, well they must be a child so, free pass”.