Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

The really stupid thing here is that the changes won't make much difference. People wiped on SoF because idiots refused to engage with the mechanics of the fight. You still need to use those mechanics post-nerf so those same idiots will keep wiping.

The sad thing about all this is that we're not allowed to have any challenging story encounters because bad players might cry. It was ridiculous how easy Lahabrea and Nabriales were to defeat; they didn't feel like major story bosses at all. That's why a lot of us were pleased with SoF since it actually felt like a struggle and those ending cutscenes after were a fantastic reward. Why must bad players insist that everyone stoop to their level to get things done? Surely it makes more sense for them to learn to play? Nerfing content so they can pass like this is only going to cause them to get stuck on something else...

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Why must bad players insist that everyone stoop to their level to get things done? Surely it makes more sense for them to learn to play? Nerfing content so they can pass like this is only going to cause them to get stuck on something else...

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Yes, because it's totally the bad players forcing SE's hand. SE has a plan in mind for what they want their game to be. If that includes tweaking a story-line fight that will block a lot of people from playing their soon to be released x-pac, so be it. If you want a hardcore game, you're in the wrong MMO. To me, it's a bit silly crying about what you wish the game would be.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Pharos sirius sort of like that when it was released and no one would run it. Get it in roulette and people quit, just like in steps of faith. I'd like more challenging dungeons, but no one is going to run them if there are easier alternatives.

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Easier alternatives with the same reward. This was the core problem with Pharos Sirius.
People would do the challenging dungeons if they can get better rewards there than in the easier dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm fine with the rewards from challenging content matching the difficulty. In the case of Steps of Faith, they opted not to include a reward to match the challenge, and instead reduced the challenge

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I find the reward matches the challenge perfectly. There is no challenge, therefore there is no reward.
A dragon moves along and other adds spawn while an NPC shouts at you and tells you what to do.

Vishap too str0nk.

I hear Coil still offers a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

I hear Coil still offers a challenge.

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I hear if you DPS hard enough, Divebombs can't hit you.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

I hear Coil still offers a challenge.

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That's a new one.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

It may make me sound like a loser but I was extremely upset and nearly quit this game over not being able to clear the final coil turn before SE came down on it with an echo nerf and trust me that 10% echo really eased the fight...

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I found SCoB frustrating to go through on several levels, by the time i cleared t8 i was considering quitting. We are both paying money and I take it we're both in fcob. I'm happy to finally enjoy it, even with echo, after having to go through hell to get to it.

My problem with coil is that it was designed to have no alternatives. FCS were stuck making statics or having folks get benched, friends were abandoned, and people started blaming each other and being conceited.

Challenge means different things to different people. A lot of people that play don't have the interest to spoil themselves with research, or even know where to research without spoilers. Some do, but do not care for peers inadvertently stepping on them with the latest tirade against "you people", some have seen the arguments and figure raiding the road to drama.

Will I care about Alex as much as coil? As a 1.0 player, probably not. Understanding what happened in 1.0's end of an era was a goal for me since t5. I'm not sure what I'll have at the end of t13, but the end, and relating and speculating with friends is what I'm looking for, not being perpetually left out for e-peens sake.

After 18 years of playing MMOs (starting from Ultima Online) while having a busy life at the same time, I've noticed that the most common annoyance of these games are the guys who want everything in a game be "challenging".
The guys for whom nothing - as long as it is IN A GAME, mind you - is ever hard enough. For them, "noobs", "casuals", "bads" etc. have simply to go to hell, stop playing games and stick to TV.
The guys who have been blessed with young age, fast reflexes, unlimited time to play and people who pay their bills.
Then some years pass, and most of them have to understand what a CHALLENGE is.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

FCS were stuck making statics or having folks get benched, friends were abandoned, and people started blaming each other and being conceited.

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I blame those players, not the content. I never abandoned my friends and most people I know who do end game raiding don't either. My FC is not a hardcore one, they are on T12 and they never go to the next turn till about 90% of the FC has cleared the previous turn, as for me I have a static so I had everything down before they set foot in it, but do I stop going to FC raids to help them out? No I don't. I still go, I still offer help. This last week I put together a group of FC members to teach them and take them through t13, they downed it last night. If others in the FC want the same I'll take my own time to teach them the mechanics and get them through it. So while you may have had negative experiences, stop saying all this like this is what happens to everyone all the time.

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Challenge means different things to different people. A lot of people that play don't have the interest to spoil themselves with research, or even know where to research without spoilers. Some do, but do not care for peers inadvertently stepping on them, some have seen the arguments and figure raiding the road to drama.

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Again with this bleak picture of how the entire community looks down on people I think you need to find new friends or move server if this is how your gaming experience has been.

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Will I care about Alex as much as coil? As a 1.0 player, probably not. Putting it behind me was a goal since t5. I'm not sure what I'll have at the end, but the end, and relating and speculating with friends is what I'm looking for, not being left out.

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Why must you be left out? If you want to do the content go make a static if you really want it, or join an FC that doesn't focus on progression but still gets the content down whether its 6 months later or not. They are out there. You make lots of PF groups, you find the good players you get along with you become friends with them, you see if people want to play together more.

Also before anyone says they don't have time for a static (not saying you will), just stop. You're not going for world firsts here, you just want the content done. So you can go once/twice a week if you don't care about the speed, just the progression.

I have said this time and time again, this game doesn't require some magical skill set you are born with, just experience and practice. If you want to down content, then you get better at your class, you learn the mechanics and you do it. Nothing is stopping you. If that doesn't sound like fun for you then great, this game has a cheeseboard of funsies for you to do anyway.

Locking story behind coil was a bad move on SE's part. I agree on that though.

The bad players that want to just blow their way through content have been the root cause of nerfs to story bosses all the way back to the 2.0 beta. For those that remember: lv 15 Gargoyle.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

I have said this time and time again, this game doesn't require some magical skill set you are born with, just experience and practice. If you want to down content, then you get better at your class, you learn the mechanics and you do it. Nothing is stopping you. If that doesn't sound like fun for you then great, this game has a cheeseboard of funsies for you to do anyway.

Locking story behind coil was a bad move on SE's part. I agree on that though.

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My own situation has gotten much better, yes. that's not to say every other experience didn't exist. If I had an axe to grind why wouldn't it be for coil? If a certain content proves more "frustrating" than "hard", do you think I'll ask for more of it?

The tightrope se walks with nerfs and releases are so that people aren't bottlenecked from enjoying content. That isn't quite what the forum crowd shares, but the forum crowd can't control what priorities people have.
You can't force "the bad" to be a botanist.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

After 18 years of playing MMOs (starting from Ultima Online) while having a busy life at the same time, I've noticed that the most common annoyance of these games are the guys who want everything in a game be "challenging".
The guys for whom nothing - as long as it is IN A GAME, mind you - is ever hard enough. For them, "noobs", "casuals", "bads" etc. have simply to go to hell, stop playing games and stick to TV.
The guys who have been blessed with young age, fast reflexes, unlimited time to play and people who pay their bills.
Then some years pass, and most of them have to understand what a CHALLENGE is.

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Wow, aren't you a stereotyping, condescending waste of forum space.
They say those 'elitists' who look down on those not clearing content are bad, then there are people like you on the other side of the coin who proclaim anyone who likes a challenge is some douchebag, mothers basement dwelling, drain on society.

Better go give your head a shake, some of us like the hard content and guess what, we have full time jobs, houses, cars, kids (not me thank god) and plenty of other commitments. We just don't use it as an excuse and play around it.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

My own situation has gotten much better, yes. that's not to say every other experience didn't exist.

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I am in no way shape or form saying that it didn't however as I said in my post if all of that happened to you, that isn't the 'norm' I've personally never seen it happen and all I can say is those people you were playing with were at fault.
I am however glad to hear your situation has improved.

We always hear the horror stories of douchebags and those who leave others behind because those are the stories to tell, no one ever says anything about the quiet guys who come in and basically carry the groups but say next to nothing and then go on their way with a casual /wave goodbye. Those stories aren't fun to tell.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

What about players who want a challenge, but started the game too late? :p

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Hi, Adam! I just wanted to respond to your post because I've heard comments like that a lot, but there will always be new, challenging content, regardless of when you start the game. Sure, for someone who starts now that might not be Steps of Faith, it might be something else, but does that really matter as long as there is content of various difficulty levels?

And my next comment is for some of the people who are complaining the game is too easy: you probably shouldn't complain the game is too easy if you won't set foot into Final Coil.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

And my next comment is for some of the people who are complaining the game is too easy: you probably shouldn't complain the game is too easy if you won't set foot into Final Coil.

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I agree with this 100%. I am extremely satisfied with the difficulty of the coils. I grew obsessed with T9 at the time because of how immensely difficult it was to the point where I now have over 100 clears and can tank, solo heal, dps it with 3 different roles practically in my sleep lol (and have all T9 drops)... My point is before I go off on a rant here is that the challenge kept me coming back for more and more of that turn. I find T12 and T13 to be equally fun. T10 and T11 are a little bland though. (All just my opinions!)

If you joined the game in the last year and think it is too easy, wait for the next big content update (HW) and tackle the endgame ASAP.

Then we'll talk.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

snip.

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I think you are using the word casual for bad.

I can use my bf as an example. His playtimes are 'casual' meaning he is a full time student with not much playtime. He has over 50m Gil, all Lucis tools, cleared the coils, has zeta weapon, etc. People just have poor time management skills or are bad players.

How is it that he has hardly any playtime and yet has 'accomplished' more then those who complain about the game who have all the free time in the world? He also runs our fc and organizes statics...all while going to a very demanding school. I am so tried of the "I dont have time to play and do things so the game should bend to my needs' mentality.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

I think you are using the word casual for bad.

I can use my bf as an example. His playtimes are 'casual' meaning he is a full time student with not much playtime. He has over 50m Gil, all Lucis tools, cleared the coils, has zeta weapon, etc. People just have poor time management skills or are bad players.

How is it that he has hardly any playtime and yet has 'accomplished' more then those who complain about the game who have all the free time in the world? He also runs our fc and organizes statics...all while going to a very demanding school. I am so tried of the "I dont have time to play and do things so the game should bend to my needs' mentality.

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"Casual" and "Hardcore" are hard to define.

The generally accepted definition is the following:

Casuals don't raid endgame content in a static. As a consequence they rely on nerfs and/or carries to clear what otherwise it would be impossible for them.

If your bf is in a static raiding at specific times tackling the endgame of each given content update, he is not a casual - no matter how much he plays in terms of number of hours.

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Originally Posted by Iskander

The bad players that want to just blow their way through content have been the root cause of nerfs to story bosses all the way back to the 2.0 beta. For those that remember: lv 15 Gargoyle.

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I remember that! I died so many times before that strat of making sure to keep the gargoyle as far away from the mage as possible came out. I still use that strat even though it's probably not needed.

Here's the thing though. Required content should be parsed for the lowest common denominator. It's the non required content that should be the challenge some people want.

The whole "Get to endgame for a challenge" concept seems silly to me... Why would someone interested in a challenge drag themselves through an increasingly lengthy campaign of mediocrity to get to the good stuff? This stinks of the exact same defense Final Fantasy XIII got... It gets good after 20 hours of boring corridors, I swear!

A well crafted difficulty curve shouldn't even exclude the majority of players like we seemingly had with Steps. A Realm Reborn has instead decided that difficulty curves are either too hard or don't work, anything resembling one gets flattened out over time. It is absolutely no surprise people got to Steps and had difficulty, though I still think the major problem was simply people leaving because the time/rewards for Steps were completely ridiculous. Nothing was hard about it, just that 15 Sol isn't worth such a lengthy instance.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

The whole "Get to endgame for a challenge" concept seems silly to me... Why would someone interested in a challenge drag themselves through an increasingly lengthy campaign of mediocrity to get to the good stuff? This stinks of the exact same defense Final Fantasy XIII got... It gets good after 20 hours of boring corridors, I swear!

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Wwww...and that is exactly when I took the game out of my PS3 and never played it again..

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Originally Posted by Nalien

The whole "Get to endgame for a challenge" concept seems silly to me... Why would someone interested in a challenge drag themselves through an increasingly lengthy campaign of mediocrity to get to the good stuff? This stinks of the exact same defense Final Fantasy XIII got... It gets good after 20 hours of boring corridors, I swear!

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You must be new to MMOs.

They are called time sinks. They are quite common.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

You must be new to MMOs.

They are called time sinks. They are quite common.

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Sure. A good time sink doesn't put its players to sleep with how mindlessly simplistic it is, though. People actually tend to praise those kinds of time sinks, rather than writing them off as another waste of time. Suppose it's too much to ask to have anything engaging on the trek to endgame these days, though.

The only real challenge in this game is RNG. Even in "high end" raids, an individual's job doesn't tend to be all too difficult, the high failure rate stems from the fact that it's usually enough for 1 person out of 8 to make a mistake to force everyone to start over.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

I think you are using the word casual for bad.

I can use my bf as an example. His playtimes are 'casual' meaning he is a full time student with not much playtime. He has over 50m Gil, all Lucis tools, cleared the coils, has zeta weapon, etc. People just have poor time management skills or are bad players.

How is it that he has hardly any playtime and yet has 'accomplished' more then those who complain about the game who have all the free time in the world? He also runs our fc and organizes statics...all while going to a very demanding school. I am so tried of the "I dont have time to play and do things so the game should bend to my needs' mentality.

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Yeah your BF sounds pretty similar to me, I run an FC, have cleared Coil etc all while holding a management position in a 9-5 office job. I wouldn't consider my self casual at all, probably more medium-core.

As for people complaining about Steps of Faith being nerfed, why do people even care? It wasn't challenging to begin with, it wasn't something like Coil where we had to work for weeks to get a clear. I can understand why people get mad at nerfs like Coil, where other people are practically given what you slaved for, but the last time I did Steps of Faith we beat it at the first Dragon Killer, how was that challenging content in the first place? We didn't have to work for it, we just went in and completely overpowered it, and for that I have no sense of achievement and no sense of bitterness towards those who have got it easier. Good on them, let them enjoy the epic closing to the 2.0 series, let them get excited knowing they are ready for 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

As for people complaining about Steps of Faith being nerfed, why do people even care?

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I think people are more or less worried about the "slippery slope" effect. Like they fear that SE is going to just give in to the unskilled or lazy players every time they whine and soon SE will be catering to them to such an extreme that even the optional challenging content that we DO enjoy will end up getting whacked with nerf bats.

It isn't the fact Steps got nerfed but more or less that "slippery slope" and the fears for the future that have players caring about this. Does SE have a line drawn that they won't cross or is that line easily erased...?

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

I think people are more or less worried about the "slippery slope" effect. Like they fear that SE is going to just give in to the unskilled or lazy players every time they whine and soon SE will be catering to them to such an extreme that even the optional challenging content that we DO enjoy will end up getting whacked with nerf bats.

It isn't the fact Steps got nerfed but more or less that "slippery slope" and the fears for the future that have players caring about this. Does SE have a line drawn that they won't cross or is that line easily erased...?

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Slipper slope is widely recognized under its fallacious form for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Sure. A good time sink doesn't put its players to sleep with how mindlessly simplistic it is, though. People actually tend to praise those kinds of time sinks, rather than writing them off as another waste of time. Suppose it's too much to ask to have anything engaging on the trek to endgame these days, though.

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I am quite sure there are plenty of people out there who consider what you call "mindlessly" to be "relaxing". Those people don't read the forums. They probably don't even know what a forum is. Still they pay SE as much as you.

We are in the age of Call of Duty and Bubble Witch Saga. You would be surprised by how many people actually like "mindlessly simplistic" stuff.
And guess what? It is cheaper to develop. Why not do it, if you were running a business?

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

I think people are more or less worried about the "slippery slope" effect. Like they fear that SE is going to just give in to the unskilled or lazy players every time they whine and soon SE will be catering to them to such an extreme that even the optional challenging content that we DO enjoy will end up getting whacked with nerf bats.

It isn't the fact Steps got nerfed but more or less that "slippery slope" and the fears for the future that have players caring about this. Does SE have a line drawn that they won't cross or is that line easily erased...?

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It's simply easing already existing content. Steps of faith was a story mission. SE saw some people were having trouble clearing it, so SE eased it so people wouldn't have so much trouble accessing the heavensward content.

i doubt they'll be on the slippery slope anyway...seeing how the only 'nerfs' FCOB received is echo and a single add removed on turn 13.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

And guess what? It is cheaper to develop.

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You say that, but I'm fairly sure SE just took an extra cost adjusting Steps of Faith... A much bigger one that was needed, too, considering all Steps needed was its rewards to actually be worth the time investment.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

We are in the age of Call of Duty and Bubble Witch Saga. You would be surprised by how many people actually like "mindlessly simplistic" stuff.

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There are these things called genres... Or do you really think SE is trying to appeal to the mobile app demographic with Final Fantasy XIV...

When I did Steps of Faith it was a instance that was pretty damn well crafted. It wasn't hard by any stretch, it just required a bit of communication, but even if everything went right it was still a tight fight with failure always being a possibility. That added to the dramatic tension of the encounter and overall enriched the story. Now Vishap is effectively just a giant FATE boss to be zerged down with the rest with very little chance of failure.

I'm all for relaxing stuff, that's why I like Triple Triad and Fishing. I'd much rather the story be dramatic and the story encounters enhance that, though. There is a place for relaxing content, epic fights with building-sized dragons probably isn't it.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Why not do it, if you were running a business?

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Standards, mostly. That's why, even though I'm not particularly fond of the Souls franchise, I have a great deal of respect for its developers. They found their niche and they do their best to appeal to it. Wish more developers would do that, rather than shamelessly trying to appeal to as many niches as possible and just diluting their product as a result. Though Final Fantasy XIV has probably fared better than most in that regard (which is why I'm here).

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Also, I've talked to an online friend experienced in mmos who tried the trial but didn't want to continue because everything was a snoozefest to him. I felt that his various complaints were legitimate and I felt like it was hard for me to tell him that it gets 'better' because as the game grows older, the tall trees just keep getting cut down and the distance he has to travel to get to the forest just keeps increasing and I'm not even sure if it'll be worth it for him. It feels really conflicting to me that I've played a game for this long but can't honestly recommend it to anyone since I've been able to experience most of the content at its prime and anyone I made to try the game will just experience the double diluted version (insane ilvl jumps + echoes + nerfs).

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That's one of my points. I know plenty of new players that would have really enjoyed the difficulty that Coil presented pre nerf, but they don't make it that far because they lose interest before catching up. IF you can obtain +i110 gear, which isn't hard to do, topped off with %20 echo, which no one is going to want to take off (I tried once as a joke and got booted, because I said I already cleared and I didnt need it... go figure...) it just becomes regular content with no special challenge. And what's worst is that out of 13 turns, you technically only need to do three of them now, making the other ten completely obsolete. What's the point of having progression content if you don't have to do all the turns to actually progress. They've even done the same with extremes. At the very least you should beat the previous ex primal before moving on to the next.

Endgame should be more than just eye candy and a means to obtain glamour gear, which unfortunately has become the case with coil.

People who do enjoy difficult/challenging content deserve variety, just like people who prefer to play casually (and there are new players who come into the game that like to be challenged as well). Not just rehashed content slapped with a (Savage title) with no real rewards other then "bragging rights" (who cares) or content that only last for 2 months before gradually getting nerfed to the point where it just becomes another Battle on the Bridge, Dragon's Neck, or a lvl 50 dungeon boss fight...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

You say that, but I'm fairly sure SE just took an extra cost adjusting Steps of Faith...

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Indeed. They had to patch something that was apparently too hard. Maybe next time they will make it easier in the first place. Unfortunate, I know.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

There are these things called genres... Or do you really think SE is trying to appeal to the mobile app demographic with Final Fantasy XIV...

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Not necessarily, but I am sure you get what I mean. The age of DAoC or UO is gone. WoW created a new genre tbh, a "new way of experiencing MMOs", and if you want to join the market at this point in time you, as a developer / publisher, cannot disregard that.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Standards, mostly. That's why, even though I'm not particularly fond of the Souls franchise, I have a great deal of respect for its developers.

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I am a huge fan of Souls games. I know that challenges are what make a game (or anything in life, really) enjoyable and satisfying. Still, we must face the truth that the majority of people do not like that.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Indeed. They had to patch something that was apparently too hard. Maybe next time they will make it easier in the first place. Unfortunate, I know.

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That wasn't the issue with Steps though. The issue was that people left because it simply wasn't worth the time investment for what you'd get out of it. Anyone who didn't already have it cleared had to deal with constant disbands because of this. That was the issue.

All they needed to do was address the issue with rewards and perhaps make certain aspects of it more forgiving. People would have stayed, gladly depending on how much better the rewards were, it could have been slightly easier and everyone would get their clear while still experiencing the original fight. Instead they just completely idiot proofed it. People will still stay, sure, it's almost impossible to fail now, but the fight has completely lost its soul IMO.

Steps really just comes off as something that was ill planned at this point. The fight was great and I really enjoyed it, but they gated Heavensward behind it. They ended up coming close to Heavensward with people still not beating it, despite the fact that I'm sure something like the Chrysalis would have had a similar completion curve (actually I helped a friend catch up before Steps was nerfed, just me and two other people, we wiped more to Chrysalis than Steps...). That timing forced them to drastically nerf it to keep Heavensward accessible. A smart developer probably wouldn't have built an expansion with all the content gated behind the story so that all their subscribers didn't feel the need to madly rush the story...

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Originally Posted by Jamein

...snip...

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I know I am stereotyping, but where there is an annoyance there is also someone annoyed (in this case, me). As I don't have either the time (I can play just some hours on weekends) , the age or (any more) the reflexes "optimal" for what the likes of you deem a "good" player, I have been stereotyped AND insulted (in games) for some years now. I'm simply fed up with that. Just play your "challenging" content and let the likes of me have our "unchallenging" one. WHAT THE HECK, AT LEAST THE MAIN STORY THAT'S MANDATORY to continue playing the game. We're not asking for the Moon.

What's intolerable, for me, is that players like you will have surely beaten Steps of Faith on first day (I did myself, so I am advocating other people's cause here) and probably will never do it any more (I sure won't - what would be the point in repeating a fight that manages to be both dull and chaotic, with no rewards?), but still you'd want less "lucky" players continue to be gated behind it!

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

The nerf to Steps of Faith wasn't needed. All that was needed was actual communication between the 8 members.
Honestly. It really wasn't that hard. I know I failed a couple times in the beginning but the DF group I was with kept trying, and eventually won.

I guess everyone wants a easy game.

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It's not that, I didn't found that duty hard at all either, but it seems that the problem was that no one wanted to work together, or spend 5min explaning the fight to new comers, which makes me wonder why these people play an MMO at all.

The nerfs to Steps of Faith where done in order to reduce the failure rate so veteran players won't mind helping people new to the instance, or at least that how I see it. :P

It's also normal to nerf old content in order to help new players catch up, specially when a new expansion is about to come out and the old content is required to unlock the new stuff.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The really stupid thing here is that the changes won't make much difference. People wiped on SoF because idiots refused to engage with the mechanics of the fight. You still need to use those mechanics post-nerf so those same idiots will keep wiping.

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From what I have heard the changes allow groups to use one less DK, kill adds faster, and kill the boss faster. How does that not make a difference? O.o I've yet to see any forum posts about it still being to hard, so clearly a difference has been made.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The sad thing about all this is that we're not allowed to have any challenging story encounters because bad players might cry. It was ridiculous how easy Lahabrea and Nabriales were to defeat; they didn't feel like major story bosses at all. That's why a lot of us were pleased with SoF since it actually felt like a struggle and those ending cutscenes after were a fantastic reward. Why must bad players insist that everyone stoop to their level to get things done? Surely it makes more sense for them to learn to play? Nerfing content so they can pass like this is only going to cause them to get stuck on something else...

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Two things:

1. It's story quest, get over it. Want challenging? Go do Coils or something else.

2. How do you think it would effect SE's revenue in a month when a large part of the playerbase can't pass that trial and go into the expansion? Seriously.... Do you guys not think about these things?

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Originally Posted by Jyskal

I speak for myself mostly, but I would really like to see an element of challenge every time a new patch is introduced. Making a dungeon longer is not a challenge though. Maybe with the new skills, more interesting mechanics could come into play. Who knows?

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You don't have "Scent of a Woman" Achievement. Even if you've outgeared it stat wise Savage Coil 9 should still provide a strong challenge for you and yours. Please return to the conversation when you've completed ALL content designed to challenge members if youre going to argue challenges.

Unless what you're arguing for is more prestige, in which case you're out of luck. FFXIV isn't about Ego padding.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

"Casual" and "Hardcore" are hard to define.

The generally accepted definition is the following:

Casuals don't raid endgame content in a static. As a consequence they rely on nerfs and/or carries to clear what otherwise it would be impossible for them.

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I disagree, sorry
Casual can also mean those who actually work for a living and don't spend all days of the week playing FFXIV and raiding.
Our FC can be considered casual, but we do raid twice a week we just do not have the time that others have.
I would not 100% say that "hardcore" are those who have completed coil and such before nerfs, most likely they just have had more time on their hands.
Nerfs on the other hand only happen because of those that want gear and such but do not bother learning fights. Like this recent sof nerf, the very first day of patch that it was introduced people were complaining on the difficulty when it actually is not hard at all. Ak was nerfed like what 3 times because of such players and Quarn and other dungeons as well. It is sad to be honest.

Money DUH! Stuff gets nerfed, because they want players to keep playing. More playing = Money. as far as challenge the stuff that's supposed to be hard is still hard. EX Primals and Coils. there's still a ton stuck on Turn 5 and don't get me started on how many are stuck on T9. those that need the nerf aren't hurting high end game raiding. like all MMOs there a business. more players = more money = a healthy game = which leads into new content.