Did tanks really need more healing

The answer is yes. Too many healers simply don't heal well and refuse to use their entire kit at high levels. As a tank main, it greatly vexes me to watch the party wipe while the healer refuses to use their MP. I am aware of the glutton of OGCD options that every healer has, but it can be off-putting to be expected to rush every dungeon whilst hoping your healer doesn't give you the old "Did you die?" attitude.

I am hopeful that the Devs give healers more DPS options or DPS combos or more powerful iterations of the DPS options that you already have.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Bring a monk they can heal now for 500 potency and buff the tanks healing, Please look foward to it!

I dunno War getting Regen is really Dumb this makes no sense at all Warrior has so much self healing adding more to it makes zero sense even if they wanted it to be the funny "green tank haha" it's at a point where more self healing is just a joke, DRK getting a 120 excog... I'm fine with, PLD getting a shield would be ok but it's kind of over the top with a 40% mitigation... honestly guardian is bar none the best upgrade imo. GNB's hp extend is... fine i guess? i dont think GNB needed more self healing.

Imo the secondary healing effects compared to PLD's shield or GNB's HP extend are less useful... PLD's being potency based means it stacks with ramparts increased healing that and it can crit... yeah Guardian looks kinda wacky good.

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I think it's ok to have different classes for different skill levels.

Also think of a WAR tank as being a chance for the Healer to DPS more or for new Healers to learn at a slower pace.
Any healing the tank can do leaves the healer free for other things.

It all balances out.

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Originally Posted by Nilsandres

The answer is yes. Too many healers simply don't heal well and refuse to use their entire kit at high levels.

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So what if a tank refuse to use mitigation and die on boss mechanic all the time? Should'nt dps or healer have an option to get agro and mitigate the boss like a tank? Why is tank the only ones allowed to canibalise other roles cause ''muh ally are bad''

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Originally Posted by Ori

Also think of a WAR tank as being a chance for the Healer to DPS more or for new Healers to learn at a slower pace.

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So 1. DPS as healer is miserable, you litteraly have 3 dps button, 1 single target, 1 dot and 1 aoe. It not fun to dps as healer currently.
And 2. I don't think having a tank that can easily heal himself for his full hp bar each 25 seconds (And that ignoring all it other mitigation or healing btw) will do a good job at teaching healer how to heal. You're just taking away the healer main jobs of you know, keeping that one dude that get 90% of the total damage in content alive.

Also while I agree that it okay for having different class for different skill level, it is a problem when your class impact the diffuculty of other roles. Like, Back in ARR when people could use SMN and WHM to tank or just off-tank people complained that it made the tank role kinda useless, if you had one of those 2 in your group, there would be no impact if you die (aside a dps lost ofc). People found that innaceptable and SE nerfed it in the same xpac. But for some reason now it Okay if tank can heal for what now... the 6 past years?

The TLDR is tanks did not need more healing.

I have never seen a launch peppered by so much “should tanks solo the boss if the rest of a party dies” discussion

An inbuilt 80% damage reduction and ridiculous sustain amazingly is not healthy for the game

As for the role of the tank, I think the tank should not be able to self-heal beyond some minor sustained healing from their basic skill combo for their single-play PvE experience (MSQ, FATE, etc). Rather, they should have more active mitigation skills like block, parry, dodge, etc., for the big hits so player skills matter. This will also make healers more impactful in the game as well.

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Originally Posted by lilmoon

As for the role of the tank, I think the tank should not be able to self-heal beyond some minor sustained healing from their basic skill combo for their single-play PvE experience (MSQ, FATE, etc). Rather, they should have more active mitigation skills like block, parry, dodge, etc., for the big hits so player skills matter. This will also make healers more impactful in the game as well.

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Please do not obstruct the tank's fun because dungeon design is poor for healers. The bosses should be doing more auto-damage and there should be more raid-wide damage across the board in dungeons. Also sprinkle in group stacks and enumerations during mob packs and dungeon bosses.

Warrior need more healing it is just not enough

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Originally Posted by Ori

I think it's ok to have different classes for different skill levels.

Also think of a WAR tank as being a chance for the Healer to DPS more or for new Healers to learn at a slower pace.
Any healing the tank can do leaves the healer free for other things.

It all balances out.

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Ah yes because healers don't already DPS enough with other tanks, Even when i'm on Dark Knight or healing a Dark Knight the healer DPS most the time, The difference is sometimes you may want to throw a OGCD heal on the DRK, where as on warrior even doing that is generally pointless.

Warrior Shouldn't have the best of everything, I personally would balance warrior out by having the best Self sustain but lacking target sustain (it should still be able to mit for allies). It's currently 2nd highest damage and has the best invul somewhere should give it's unfair that warrior is all upsides.

Even if it were to have the best sustain I don't think it should have a healing tool on literally all of it's abilities, equilibrium Is fine without the regen, Shake it off shouldn't heal others, blood whetting/nascent shouldn't heal for each enemy, even changing these listed things would still make warrior the best tank at sustaining itself, I think I'm being pretty reasonable here.

Healers job should be to heal, tanks job should be to also help and support. I'm fine with Certain tanks like Warrior or Paladin making the healer's job a bit easier, but I'm not fine with them being able to replace a healer.

Playing the "funny healer axe tank" might be fun for the individual but it isn't a healthy design for healers it takes away gameplay from them, while on the other tanks it just feels bad in comparison because theirs a tank that can do everything you can do but better and easier.

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Originally Posted by ZUZ

Please do not obstruct the tank's fun because dungeon design is poor for healers. The bosses should be doing more auto-damage and there should be more raid-wide damage across the board in dungeons. Also sprinkle in group stacks and enumerations during mob packs and dungeon bosses.

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Dungeon design is poor for healers BECAUSE tanks are all three roles in one with an 80% inbuilt damage reduction leaving healers with their 1 button spam

Having autos punch the tank hard enough to overcome their huge self healing is just nerfing the self healing by proxy, but actually nerfing the self healing changes old content to be more in line as well

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I have never seen a launch peppered by so much “should tanks solo the boss if the rest of a party dies” discussion

An inbuilt 80% damage reduction and ridiculous sustain amazingly is not healthy for the game

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Honestly it ruins the 92 abilities too. If the short CDs weren't so strong these massive buffs every 2 mins would probably feel level 90-100 worthy. But because short CDs especially on warrior are so powerful pretty much all CD mit upgrades feel like nothing because what really is there to add.

It feels powerful enough on Paladin and GNB I feel, but Damnation's bonus effect is pretty redundant, but I suppose what are you going to add when Warrior already has 2 shields, healing on hit, etc.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

But then the problem doesn't comes from the tanks and the question can be asked to the healer role as well.
What's the point of focusing on healers healing if the healing requirements is low?

The problem is not limited to dungeons but raid 24 and extreme. Seriously, raid 24 as Sage has been Dosis, Kerachole and res/Ixochole people who takes avoidable aoes.
XIV's casual content design is too casual, even if tanks or DPS had no healing the problem would remain the same.

It's not the sustain that needs a nerf, it's the incoming damages that needs a buff.

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Incoming damage is too low in casual content. This is a problem for the tanks as well and I'm really baffled how so many healers want to strip another role of their buttons when the problem is the incoming damage. Party stacks and raidwides happen too infrequently and do close to no damage.

As a tank player, I would be disappointed if they took away the tank's ability to self-sustain. I would much rather casual content to ramp up the incoming damage and make casual bosses do heavy hitting autos. All in the effort of making the tank and healer role necessary. You can do casual content with just DPS. This is not a tank problem or a healer problem.

It's a casual content design problem. When I play as healer, I sit on my aoe healing between and during mob pulls because it is not necessary. I want them to add party stacks, raidwides, and even enumerations to justify all the aoe healing buttons that sit dead on the hotbar unless you are doing higher end content.

And again, the dungeon bosses just don't auto hard enough.

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Originally Posted by ZUZ

Incoming damage is too low in casual content. This is a problem for the tanks as well and I'm really baffled how so many healers want to strip another role of their buttons when the problem is the incoming damage. Party stacks and raidwides happen too infrequently and do close to no damage.

As a tank player, I would be disappointed if they took away the tank's ability to self-sustain. I would much rather casual content to ramp up the incoming damage and make casual bosses do heavy hitting autos. All in the effort of making the tank and healer role necessary. You can do casual content with just DPS. This is not a tank problem or a healer problem.

It's a casual content design problem. When I play as healer, I sit on my aoe healing between and during mob pulls because it is not necessary. I want them to add party stacks, raidwides, and even enumerations to justify all the aoe healing buttons that sit dead on the hotbar unless you are doing higher end content.

And again, the dungeon bosses just don't auto hard enough.

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If the choice is between

A) buff the bosses to reduce the effectiveness of self sustain
B) nerf the self sustain

One of these only affects future content that they explicitly balance it around, the other affects all content, the one that affects all content also affects savage fights where single target healing on the tank is also under-utilised

The idea that “don’t nerf buff everything else to compensate” just achieves the same thing as a nerf with 8,000 potential failure points introduced and the chance the balance will be way off

Tanks either need to lose their excessive sustain or they need to lose their inbuilt 80% damage down, EXISITING casual content isn’t fixed by buffing future casual content to compensate for the buffs they keep giving tanks

Side note before main point can you stop randomly emboldening things, it adds nothing to your argument

Tanks cannot heal the party- yeah divine veil, shake it off and the shared mitigation says otherwise, it’s is incredibly easy to keep up 3 DPS as a WAR or a PLD, they 100% can play off healer and that’s part of the problem. They can easily share their mits because they don’t need them because they have such massive inbuilt defence.

They never up damage because they are too scared of the party relying on the healer, that’s the problem, “up damage in dungeons” isn’t a solution because they simply will not go there, because they hate the idea of the party being reliant on the healer (never mind the DPS are reliant on the healer to not end up watching the tank solo the boss)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Dungeon design is poor for healers BECAUSE tanks are all three roles in one with an 80% inbuilt damage reduction leaving healers with their 1 button spam

Having autos punch the tank hard enough to overcome their huge self healing is just nerfing the self healing by proxy, but actually nerfing the self healing changes old content to be more in line as well

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This is just not true. Tanks cannot replace the healer role. Tanks cannot heal the party, nor can they esuna debuffs, nor can they revive other players. I'm not only suggesting to have the bosses hit harder but to also increase the raid wide damage and the frequency of it. Healers have more than just single-target healing. A boss's raidwide with no feint, addle, or reprisal, will still do no damage and all I have to do as sage is hit 1 button on my hotbar to heal everyone to full.

Directly nerfing the self-sustain would lead to an overall dull dungeon experience. When was the last time you used esuna in a dungeon? I can tell you I did it once earlier today and I didn't have to because that debuff lasted 5-7 seconds. Why aren't there more mechanics that depend on the healer? This game hand holds the healer role so much its infuriating to play the healer job in casual content.

Why aren't there more doom mechanics that I can esuna?

Why do debuffs that are esunable last less than 10 seconds?

Why aren't there more mechanics like White Hole where the party needs to be max health or they die.


The casual content design effectively makes all the roles useless.

There is no DPS check in dungeons, there is no heal check in dungeons, there is no tank check in dungeons. The bosses in dungeons pose no real danger to the main threat that any role could tank the boss because it has no heavy hitting autos or threatening tankbusters.

Dawntrail's dungeons have been a major improvement but if we look at the very first dungeon we are still lacking the things that would make bringing 1 of each role necessary.

Again, nerfing the tank's self-sustain doesn't solve the problem that you can still clear the dungeons with 4 dps or 4 healers or even 4 tanks.

Side note its not to "add to my argument". It's to improve the readability of the text for my sake and others


It's just as easy to keep up 3 DPS with a red mage as it is to keep up 3 healer with... any other role.

I agree that them being scared of relying on the healer is a problem but there are more interesting ways of making the healer role more integral to party composition in casual content. Even if they do not up the damage they can still add debuffs and mechanics that rely on the healer.

If you are taking shake it off and divine veil at face value, sure they have cure potency, but nobody is using those skills to heal the party. They use those skills to mitigate damage. Are you seriously expecting a tank to heal the party to max health? To even heal them efficiently at all?

Removing the self-sustain just isn't a solution when its an appeal to the tank class and very much needed in high-end content.

The healer role isn't even badly designed. The content you are doing has no need for a healer. There is no tank who is reviving the party, healing the party in a meaningful way, or even removing dangerous debuffs. No tanks are not doing your role for you. Dungeons specifically, have no reason to adhere to a strict 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps party compostion.

Just as a note, I have been levelling Sage for the role quests and whilst Healer is my weakest role, even I have noticed a massive difference between healing a Dark Knight compared to a Gunbreaker or Paladin (not had the Warrior Pleasure yet).

It could be the fact I have just had bad Dark Knights (my sample size is small, 2 DRK, 2 PLD and 1 GNB), but for less experienced healers, the sudden shift between healing a Dark Knight compared to the others is going to be quite jarring.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Just as a note, I have been levelling Sage for the role quests and whilst Healer is my weakest role, even I have noticed a massive difference between healing a Dark Knight compared to a Gunbreaker or Paladin (not had the Warrior Pleasure yet).

It could be the fact I have just had bad Dark Knights (my sample size is small, 2 DRK, 2 PLD and 1 GNB), but for less experienced healers, the sudden shift between healing a Dark Knight compared to the others is going to be quite jarring.

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It is a night and day difference between DRK and other tanks. DRK only has 2 self sustain options in its kit. One is on a 1 minute timer and the other is on a 2 minute timer assuming they are lvl 92 and above.

The OP was referring to GNB, PLD and WAR self sustain which is crazy good when compared to DRK. The real question is do you nerf the other tanks to DRK level or do you buff DRK. I know for WHM once adds get immune to stun and DRK TBN gets broken you have to GCD heal the DRK.

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Originally Posted by ZUZ

Side note its not to "add to my argument". It's to improve the readability of the text for my sake and others


It's just as easy to keep up 3 DPS with a red mage as it is to keep up 3 healer with... any other role.

I agree that them being scared of relying on the healer is a problem but there are more interesting ways of making the healer role more integral to party composition in casual content. Even if they do not up the damage they can still add debuffs and mechanics that rely on the healer.

If you are taking shake it off and divine veil at face value, sure they have cure potency, but nobody is using those skills to heal the party. They use those skills to mitigate damage. Are you seriously expecting a tank to heal the party to max health? To even heal them efficiently at all?

Removing the self-sustain just isn't a solution when its an appeal to the tank class and very much needed in high-end content.

The healer role isn't even badly designed. The content you are doing has no need for a healer. There is no tank who is reviving the party, healing the party in a meaningful way, or even removing dangerous debuffs. No tanks are not doing your role for you. Dungeons specifically, have no reason to adhere to a strict 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps party compostion.

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You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here

A tank can’t heal because there is only limited potency on their heals (never mind their shareable mits) but then also the game doesn’t put out enough damage. With the same put out the tanks 100% can keep the party up and unlike RDM who loses half their damage to vercure the party the tanks lose absolutely nothing to do this

The tanks are better single target healers than the healers because their heals have zero downsides and have excessively high potency

Tank sustain isn’t even needed in savage, the enemies simply do not hit the tank hard enough or frequent enough to need the amount of self healing they have, they need the mitigation but not the healing

This plays into your “just add debuffs and buffs that work with the healer”. I DONT WANT TO BE A BUFF BOT SO YOU CAN HEAL I want to actually be the role I signed up for as a healer. Do you see how incredibly selfish it is to say “no I like being a better healer than you as a tank you can do something else instead of healing” that’s just such a flawed concept especially when paired with the fact that healers kits are 90% healing. Why is the tank a better healer than I when 90% of my kit is healing

You don’t seem to see that “functionally useful healing” and “raw healing potential” are two totally different things, SIO is incredibly overpowered because it’s up almost as often as casual content actually puts out damage and it’s potency exceeds healer heals and it has zero downside. Even if the damage is a little more frequent just pop nascent flash on someone else and boom they are back to full. Healers shouldn’t be reduced to rezz bots and esuna bots because the tank wants to be a healer as well

Let’s also not forget when the healer does go down the immortal tank just ignores them anyway, no “oh the healer is dead the DPS will go soon I should wipe” it’s “well guess it’s solo time”

Tanks should be focusing on protecting the healer, not doing the healers job for them

You could remove tank sustain to go back pre-EW, the healing in dungeon would remain boring, the sooner you come to this conclusion the better you'll understand the root of the problem.
Try healing a tank that doesn't use its sustain, you'll quickly find that the conclusion will remain the same, obviously the result will vary from healer to healer.
And on top of that you just made the tanks less creative and less fun.

But on my experience with SGE/SCH, the kit is already too much for dungeon.
Even as a tank, I often found myself not pressing some buttons because the excog never popped and half the pack was already dead.
There's a few exception, some packs inflicts small tank buster that can surprise from time to time and it's exactly what dungeons needs, just with a better way to communicate this big hit is about to happen.

But even then, healer rotation would remain a bore, spamming 1 while waiting damages to happen and resetting dot won't be enough.
Healers needs more damaging GCDs, nothing massive but something that makes them feel more than "healers with 1 damaging GCD and 1 dot."

A healbot design will never work, content will always be calculated around your floor and ceiling, except the more healing tools are added, the higher the ceiling goes, as their number alone are a complexity added.

There is more than one facet of healer problems but not even having to press your own oGCD’s because the tank is doing it for you contributes

Healing a DRK IS more engaging than healing a WAR because at least I have a reason to press my oGCD’s. Anyone else literally doesn’t need me to be there

Nerfing tank sustain alone won’t fix healers but it’s one of the contributing problems

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There is more than one facet of healer problems but not even having to press your own oGCD’s because the tank is doing it for you contributes
Healing a DRK IS more engaging than healing a WAR because at least I have a reason to press my oGCD’s. Anyone else literally doesn’t need me to be there
Nerfing tank sustain alone won’t fix healers but it’s one of the contributing problems

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It won't fix anything or won't make anything better. Tank sustain put in light how barebone the healer gameplay was.
If you remove tank sustain the problem won't go away, it will remain but won't be under the spotlight.

You'll end up punishing groups which have a struggling healer by stopping anyone else from participating and trying to compensate for what they lack.

Remember that we had DRK able to dodge and spam Abyssal Drain, Warrior had access to Bloodbath, RDM and PLD could solo heal and nobody said anything, because healer design was more than being a healer bot with a dot.
Remember people were excited for SGE because they believe it to be a "DPS healer" or the equivalent of "Disc Priest" from WoW.

Tank sustain is not the problem but merely the trigger. Obviously if you remove the trigger the reaction will be gone... Until the next trigger where people will cry about removing it, continuing a cycle instead of fixing the root of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Just as a note, I have been levelling Sage for the role quests and whilst Healer is my weakest role, even I have noticed a massive difference between healing a Dark Knight compared to a Gunbreaker or Paladin (not had the Warrior Pleasure yet).

It could be the fact I have just had bad Dark Knights (my sample size is small, 2 DRK, 2 PLD and 1 GNB), but for less experienced healers, the sudden shift between healing a Dark Knight compared to the others is going to be quite jarring.

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Just to add onto this, done a Vanguard run, Paladin tried the first big pull, no defensives, no blade combo, I couldn't keep them alive, at all as Sage.

Again, this could just be my stupidity as a healer, but there seems to be 2 extremes, when you have a tank who knows what they are doing, it makes healers obsolete, when you have a tank that doesn't know what they are doing, healers are basically slowing down the inevitable.

How much of this is down to the missing mitigation or the lack of healing (and consequentially damage in the case of Paladin) provided by the tank isn't clear, but it seems there is a middle ground here that is the sweet spot as to where it should be.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

It won't fix anything or won't make anything better. Tank sustain put in light how barebone the healer gameplay was.
If you remove tank sustain the problem won't go away, it will remain but won't be under the spotlight.

You'll end up punishing groups which have a struggling healer by stopping anyone else from participating and trying to compensate for what they lack.

Remember that we had DRK able to dodge and spam Abyssal Drain, Warrior had access to Bloodbath, RDM and PLD could solo heal and nobody said anything, because healer design was more than being a healer bot with a dot.
Remember people were excited for SGE because they believe it to be a "DPS healer" or the equivalent of "Disc Priest" from WoW.

Tank sustain is not the problem but merely the trigger. Obviously if you remove the trigger the reaction will be gone... Until the next trigger where people will cry about removing it, continuing a cycle instead of fixing the root of the problem.

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It will fix the fact that in 99% of content (yes even savage) the tank doesn’t need the healer, healer DPS rotations are a mess by themselves but you could make healers as complex as BLM if you wanted to, it still doesn’t fix the fact that at some level healers want to heal, not watch the tank do it for them

It’s the act of being unable to perform your own role, it’s like if holy’s stun never dropped off so you as the tank is functionally having the tanking done by the healer then the healer is like ACSHOOLY you being a tank is irrelevant you just need a more interesting DPS rotation. This wasn’t really a factor in SB because you actually had to be somewhat knowledgeable of your role and confident in your party to back you up, now it’s just “do you know where your short mit button is”

We as healers want to be the party’s primary healer, not playing a gimped caster while the tanks heal for us. That isn’t going to be fixed by making the DPS rotation more interesting (not I am not saying it shouldn’t it 100% should be made more interesting)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It will fix the fact that in 99% of content (yes even savage) the tank doesn’t need the healer, healer DPS rotations are a mess by themselves but you could make healers as complex as BLM if you wanted to, it still doesn’t fix the fact that at some level healers want to heal, not watch the tank do it for them

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While it's true it's clearable with no healer, you voluntarely omit the fact that this requires exploiting the most of the tank kit and game mechanics, it's not like every player can do this, even excellent one.
That's like arguing that humans don't need to drink water everyday because one man survived two weeks without any water.
Or that one guy won lottery and stopped working, so people just have to win lottery and working is useless.

That's survivorship bias. Because someone did it doesn't mean everyone will do it, especially when the number of players who are able to achieve this can be counted on your fingers.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Tank sustain is not the problem but merely the trigger. Obviously if you remove the trigger the reaction will be gone... Until the next trigger where people will cry about removing it, continuing a cycle instead of fixing the root of the problem.

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The relationship between tank and healer is diminished when the tank doesn't need the healer.

The root problem is that healing in this game is badly designed but you do not fix it by giving up and just letting one role divorce itself from the party outside of DPS requirements they cannot mathematically reach.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The relationship between tank and healer is diminished when the tank doesn't need the healer.

The root problem is that healing in this game is badly designed but you do not fix it by giving up and just letting one role divorce itself from the party outside of DPS requirements they cannot mathematically reach.

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And you're correct when it comes the the design flaws of the healing in the game.
But the healer relationship is with the party, not with the tank. Dungeons adds have abyssmal amount of raidwide damage, no share or anything. Removing tank sustain will never fix that.

SQEX is left with two choice either expand on the healer role or embrace the "Green DPS" role.
Tanks moved away from their main role to be more and more focus on their "Blue DPS" aspect and the recipe worked while not giving up on its primary role.

Putting more strain on healers in casual content might result in a more intimidating role for players.
But expanding the DPS buttons won't and has a higher chance of interesting players.
That's why I believe they should explore the second option, but they can do both.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

SQEX is left with two choice either expand on the healer role or embrace the "Green DPS" role.
Tanks moved away from their main role to be more and more focus on their "Blue DPS" aspect and the recipe worked while not giving up on its primary role.

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I wouldn't use "worked" tanking in this game is pretty bad as well.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

And you're correct when it comes the the design flaws of the healing in the game.
But the healer relationship is with the party, not with the tank. Dungeons adds have abyssmal amount of raidwide damage, no share or anything. Removing tank sustain will never fix that.

SQEX is left with two choice either expand on the healer role or embrace the "Green DPS" role.
Tanks moved away from their main role to be more and more focus on their "Blue DPS" aspect and the recipe worked while not giving up on its primary role.

Putting more strain on healers in casual content might result in a more intimidating role for players.
But expanding the DPS buttons won't and has a higher chance of interesting players.
That's why I believe they should explore the second option, but they can do both.

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Tanks didn’t just move away from their primary role and became blue DPS, they overtook the healer role from the healers. The average casuals favourite joke to post on mainsub is “hahahaha WAR go burrrrrrr unga Bunga” people are actually playing tanks at this point because it allows them to be a healer for themself. That is 100% cannibalising another role.

If they were so confident that dropping actual agro mechanics and just making them blue DPS with some defensives why did they also need to cannibalise healers to make people want to play them

I want more complex DPS on healer but it isn’t the totality of the problem simply because just making tanks Blue DPS wasn’t the totality of of the fix for them either, they actually had to encroach on healers to make them popular

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Tanks didn’t just move away from their primary role and became blue DPS, they overtook the healer role from the healers. The average casuals favourite joke to post on mainsub is “hahahaha WAR go burrrrrrr unga Bunga” people are actually playing tanks at this point because it allows them to be a healer for themself. That is 100% cannibalising another role.

If they were so confident that dropping actual agro mechanics and just making them blue DPS with some defensives why did they also need to cannibalise healers to make people want to play them

I want more complex DPS on healer but it isn’t the totality of the problem simply because just making tanks Blue DPS wasn’t the totality of of the fix for them either, they actually had to encroach on healers to make them popular

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Again, you're badly exagerating the proportions. Tanks can't provide the same amount of healing healers can.
The problem is that there's no need for so much healing because SQEX doesn't want to stress healers in dungeon, so it results in Tank healing being sufficient to heal casual content.

And if you take content that requires higher HPS, that's survivorship bias, 99.9% of the players have 2 healers in their composition. Solo heal/No healer is a challenge for an extreme, very talented minority that absolutely doesn't define the majority.
Such group even pick one or multiple paladin because they have access to Clemency, a GCD that exist since Heavensward and was never a problem.

Mind you that tank popularity rose in Shadowbringer, not Endwalker. Tank sustain wasn't as big back then, they simply removed the reduced damage from tank stance.
So Tank sustain is completely out of the equation in tank popularity.

I think the main problem with why tanks weren't as popular in SB was because they all had stance dancing so you couldn't escape it. It was like mage bard in HW, it wasn't actually that bad but machinist did the same thing so you couldn't escape it.
I wish something like PLD or WAR kept the stance dancing because that would of made them more interesting to play rn.

Personally when it comes to self sustain for tanks I still think healing should be locked behind long CDs and any group healing from tanks should make the tank lose out on damage like clemency. Same opinion on DPS I think summoners new heal should end bahamut give you a damage down for a GCD for example.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Again, you're badly exagerating the proportions. Tanks can't provide the same amount of healing healers can.
The problem is that there's no need for so much healing because SQEX doesn't want to stress healers in dungeon, so it results in Tank healing being sufficient to heal casual content.

And if you take content that requires higher HPS, that's survivorship bias, 99.9% of the players have 2 healers in their composition. Solo heal/No healer is a challenge for an extreme, very talented minority that absolutely doesn't define the majority.
Such group even pick one or multiple paladin because they have access to Clemency, a GCD that exist since Heavensward and was never a problem.

Mind you that tank popularity rose in Shadowbringer, not Endwalker. Tank sustain wasn't as big back then, they simply removed the reduced damage from tank stance.
So Tank sustain is completely out of the equation in tank popularity.

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Do you not see the problem with your logic

“Tank sustain isn’t actually that good it’s just that healing is so low that tank sustain is actually good”, if healing requirements are low enough the tank can cover them effectively then tank sustain is good, there is no two ways about that. This also extends to savage content, tanks heal themselves almost twice as much as the healers heal them and 90% of healer healing on the tank is incidental AOE healing, tanks simply don’t need to be healed in any content

The problem with off comps is becoming worse, there is now 7 seperate videos of an on patch extreme (vali) being cleared by a pickup PF group of 8 tanks, every expansion this problem becomes worse, you certainly ain’t clearing vali with 8 healers or anything above extreme with no DPS players, healers are consistently the ones left on the cutting room floor and it can’t be passed off as “extremely talented minority” when tje only thing stopping it from being more common is convention

Yes tank popularity went up in ShB, right when WAR first got the “baby mode immortality” in dungeons with nascent flash and raw intuition, it wasn’t as bad as bloodwhetting was but unlike abyssal drain DA’s you didn’t need a brain to be immortal as a WAR, and surprise surprise ever since then WAR has been the most common tank

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Do you not see the problem with your logic

“Tank sustain isn’t actually that good it’s just that healing is so low that tank sustain is actually good”, if healing requirements are low enough the tank can cover them effectively then tank sustain is good, there is no two ways about that. This also extends to savage content, tanks heal themselves almost twice as much as the healers heal them and 90% of healer healing on the tank is incidental AOE healing, tanks simply don’t need to be healed in any content

Yes tank popularity went up in ShB, right when WAR first got the “baby mode immortality” in dungeons with nascent flash and raw intuition, it wasn’t as bad as bloodwhetting was but unlike abyssal drain DA’s you didn’t need a brain to be immortal as a WAR, and surprise surprise ever since then WAR has been the most common tank

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Raw Intuition only reduced damage but Nascent flash had the healing effect, that's true.
But again, you're blowing things out of proportions, only Warrior had access to this kind of sustain and it wasn't a problem. DRK, GNB and PLD didn't had the sustain and yet the popularity of tank increased.
If sustain was the reason of this increase of popularity, why other tanks gained popularity as well and why didn't it occured earlier when Bloodbath was available?

At some point you'll realize the reasoning that sustain carried the tank popularity makes no sense.

“Tank sustain isn’t actually that good it’s just that healing is so low that tank sustain is actually good”
Yes, and? What is the problem? Apply this question to DPS or Tanks, you'll definitely understand why it is correct.
Imagine if damages taken were so low you could pick 4 DPS, would the problem come from tank?
Imagine if DPS check were so low you could pick 4 Tank and 4 heal, would the problem come from DPS?

Of course not.

As for savage content, again survivorship bias. It is limited to an extreme minority.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Raw Intuition only reduced damage but Nascent flash had the healing effect, that's true.
But again, you're blowing things out of proportions, only Warrior had access to this kind of sustain and it wasn't a problem. DRK, GNB and PLD didn't had the sustain and yet the popularity of tank increased.
If sustain was the reason of this increase of popularity, why other tanks gained popularity as well and why didn't it occured earlier when Bloodbath was available?

At some point you'll realize the reasoning that sustain carried the tank popularity makes no sense.

“Tank sustain isn’t actually that good it’s just that healing is so low that tank sustain is actually good”
Yes, and? What is the problem? Apply this question to DPS or Tanks, you'll definitely understand why it is correct.
Imagine if damages taken were so low you could pick 4 DPS, would the problem come from tank?
Imagine if DPS check were so low you could pick 4 Tank and 4 heal, would the problem come from DPS?

Of course not.

As for savage content, again survivorship bias. It is limited to an extreme minority.

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Yes I wonder why the tank that got the most sustain immediately jumped to the most played tank. Hell GNB was the new tank in ShB and WAR still has half the collective parses of the entire expansion, WAR’s self sustain contributed to its popularity in ShB and now the tanks can be directly ranked on play numbers by their levels of self sustain. WAR is as popular as it is because of its self sustain

“Imagine this scenario that doesn’t happen is happening and it’s the same thing as this scenario that’s actually happening”

Lack of DPS checks in casual content is never going to remove the DPS because they always make things go faster. Lack of hard mitigation requirements is never going to remove tanks because it’s always more efficient for the tank to hold agro to keep it off others. Lack of necessary healing IS removing healers right now because the tanks can do it for the healer. This would be no different if the DPS could be the healer but they can’t (and no RDM doesn’t count because they have to give up DPS)

Saying a scenario that won’t happen could happen so it’s just as valid as a scenario that is happening is totally flawed logic. And saying “don’t blame the role that benefits from this unequal situation blame the balance” is flawed because you can equalise the balance by nerfing the role that is unequally benefiting from the balance

You also can’t keep passing off savage as a tiny minority as it continues to become more and more common, you should not be clearing an on patch EX with a PF pickup group with 8 tanks and being able to have it repeated 7 seperate times, TOP healerless is an extreme minority, this new wave is only being held back by the fact that you gain no benefit from doing it, doesn’t mean it is actually hard

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes I wonder why the tank that got the most sustain immediately jumped to the most played tank. Hell GNB was the new tank in ShB and WAR still has half the collective parses of the entire expansion, WAR’s self sustain contributed to its popularity in ShB and now the tanks can be directly ranked on play numbers by their levels of self sustain. WAR is as popular as it is because of its self sustain

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Warrior always was the most popular tank, that's not something new.
If sustain was the reason, Paladin would've been the default choice thanks to Clemency, but it was the least popular.
Warrior was liked because it was simple and had access to holmgang while PLD and DRK were much less popular due to their more complex kit, it's not rocket science.

Extreme always had very low DPS check, it's not new that it can be cleared with nothing but tanks.
You take Extreme as an example but have you forgotten the times where extreme could be solo tanked, did tanks cried about it?
Or DPS crying about those full tank Extreme clear? DPS is never necessary outside savage/ultimate, it's a comfort. A healer also makes the content more comfortable, they have access to res unlike many other DPS after all.

You're taking the problem the wrong way, you think the necessicity of heal is taken away by the tanks but you omit there's no necessary healing in the first place.
What will happen when DPS starts using their mitigation or killing packs before the tank is at risk, are you going to scream to nerf them? Rather than increase the adds damage or their HP?

Ironically we had this situation in Shadowbringers between 5.3 to 5.5 where packs would deal ridiculously low damage, healers would simply AFK and wait for the tank to take meaningful damage.
That's where we got "you don't pay my sub" stories where healers refused to DPS.

Look, it's time to move on
You're going full cycle trying to find any reason Warrior was popular and trying to forcefully link it to its sustain while dismissing the satisfying feeling of Fell Cleave and the Holmgang utility.
Nothing new or impactful has been brought in the discussion and I have the feeling nothing will be.

Even if you were to delete Warrior from the game, or any form of sustain from the non-healers, the problems would persist and Square Enix would balance its dungeon around the available healing anyway.
Maybe the day they'll do this and you see packs doing ridiculously low damage you'll understand.

Idk maybe I’m missing something but it seems wrong to say ‘well it’s just casual content so tanks should be able to do all the healing themselves’ (which ignores the many full tank EX clears).

Most obvious point being you can’t drop your healer in casual content lol. I mean, if we’re talking full on casual and not just ‘4 static members doing an expert together’, then you’re going to be in Duty Finder where role distribution is fixed.

So in literally the only time you’re ‘made’ to bring a healer is the one time you need it the least. Tank sustain is so busted now I literally cannot get Excogitation to activate on most tanks during mass pulls. I’ve seen Warriors just completely ignore boss mechanics and gathering up vuln stacks like it was going out of fashion, because with the amount of mitigation and self-healing they have makes it extremely easy to just completely invalidate mechanics outside of direct one-shots. And I have no doubt the other tanks could do the same (maybe not DRK lol they’re weirdly squishy).

Like, why does it not matter that the tank is literally strong enough to invalidate my main role in the majority of content I do? Because, what, it doesn’t affect savage? (I think it does and will lol). It doesn’t seem fair to tell casual healers to just accept that.

Lastly, I feel like saying ‘but that’s just skilled tanks’ is a bit of a straw man. In my experience I can literally count on one hand the amount of tanks who didn’t make full use of mitigations and self-heals. I’m not sure where this idea comes from that the average player is some mind of lobotomised animal, but in my experience the average player really isn’t that bad (they’re, well, average lol).

So where are these tanks who are struggling to keep their HP up, aren’t using any of their mitigations, and require powerful and consistent healing to keep alive? I’ve yet to meet one. And this is as like an extremely casual player lol, nobody can set the bar lower than me

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

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This just cycles back to my original point. If the option is between nerfing tank sustain/survivability or upping incoming damage then nerfing tank sustain is an infinitely better choice because it fixes old content and doesn’t introduce 50 other failure points. The trinity has been broken for too long to try to fix it now by buffing the content beyond the capabilities of the tanks going forward. This is your own point “the content doesn’t do enough damage”, yes the content doesn’t do enough damage against the current survivability of the tanks. The answer is not to then buff every enemy in the game by enough to outpace the tanks, it’s to nerf the tanks. There is edge cases like matoya’s relic but that is incredibly niche compared to the overall problem of the tanks

Notice how every single time an irregular comp comes up in high end content and 99% in casual content it involves using more tanks than normal tanks are the core of the warping of the trinity and you can see this with how much discourse has been generated in DT about tanks leaving the party dead to solo the boss

The trinity is broken and the easiest and least problematic way to fix it is to nerf the tanks, trying to do anything else introduces 8,000 other failure points. As a new DPS main I’m also unhappy that extremes are being cleared on patch by all tanks. The tanks are so far beyond the scope of balance that it’s warping every facet of the game

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This just cycles back to my original point. If the option is between nerfing tank sustain/survivability or upping incoming damage then nerfing tank sustain is an infinitely better choice because it fixes old content and doesn’t introduce 50 other failure points. The trinity has been broken for too long to try to fix it now by buffing the content beyond the capabilities of the tanks going forward.

Notice how every single time an irregular comp comes up in high end content and 99% in casual content it involves using more tanks than normal tanks are the core of the warping of the trinity and you can see this with how much discourse has been generated in DT about tanks leaving the party dead to solo the boss

The trinity is broken and the easiest and least problematic way to fix it is to nerf the tanks, trying to do anything else introduces 8,000 other failure points. As a new DPS main I’m also unhappy that extremes are being cleared on patch by all tanks. The tanks are so far beyond the scope of balance that it’s warping every facet of the game

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"Fix old content"
False, old content has been broken way before tanks even had access to sustain.
UCOB has been cleared in many ways, 7 players, all tanks, 100 KOs, but the most common is the cheesing of mechanics through LB tank, the DPS check is now so low you can deal with damage down.
This has been fixed by the content such as DSR inflicting a 90% damage down to avoid any cheesing, supporting my argument that the content is the problem.

"Every irregular comp is more tank"
False, I've pointed out solo tank and when solo tank is not possible, it's 100% because the content forces an offtank.
EX1 would be difficult, but EX2 is definitely possible with a single tank but would require extra work.
Which, for a second time, support my argument that the content defines what requires a role or not.

It should also be pointed out that player going "off meta" plays with a huge disadvantage to gain small benefits. These players use their ingenuity and talents to play out of the box, we shouldn't take that away from them.
Also note that if Clemency was taken out, a lot of content wouldn't be clearable without a healer, not bloodwhetting.

"The trinity has been broken"
False, The trinity remains unbroken, it can be easily proven by yourself just opening Party Finder and counting how much recruitment breaks the trinity.
As of now, I count 0. And I've seen at least one PF just doing a 5th DPS with a solo heal, which again points out that current content doesn't dish enough damage to exploit healers full kit.

2 Tanks, 2 Healers and 4 DPS remains the strongest and safest composition that dominates the meta.
Sorry to break your fantasy, but the trinity remains strong and you just have to open the party finder to prove it.
I'll be convinced that the trinity is broken the day where healers are completely barred from PF.

For now, I only read hyperbolic statements.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

"Fix old content"
False, old content has been broken way before tanks even had access to sustain.
UCOB has been cleared in many ways, 7 players, all tanks, 100 KOs, but the most common is the cheesing of mechanics through LB tank, the DPS check is now so low you can deal with damage down.
This has been fixed by the content such as DSR inflicting a 90% damage down to avoid any cheesing, supporting my argument that the content is the problem.

"Every irregular comp is more tank"
False, I've pointed out solo tank and when solo tank is not possible, it's 100% because the content forces an offtank.
EX1 would be difficult, but EX2 is definitely possible with a single tank but would require extra work.
Which, for a second time, support my argument that the content defines what requires a role or not.

It should also be pointed out that player going "off meta" plays with a huge disadvantage to gain small benefits. These players use their ingenuity and talents to play out of the box, we shouldn't take that away from them.
Also note that if Clemency was taken out, a lot of content wouldn't be clearable without a healer, not bloodwhetting.

"The trinity has been broken"
False, The trinity remains unbroken, it can be easily proven by yourself just opening Party Finder and counting how much recruitment breaks the trinity.
As of now, I count 0. And I've seen at least one PF just doing a 5th DPS with a solo heal, which again points out that current content doesn't dish enough damage to exploit healers full kit.

2 Tanks, 2 Healers and 4 DPS remains the strongest and safest composition that dominates the meta.
Sorry to break your fantasy, but the trinity remains strong and you just have to open the party finder to prove it.
I'll be convinced that the trinity is broken the day where healers are completely barred from PF.

For now, I only read hyperbolic statements.

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You are again making two opposing logical statements then not acknowledging you made them

“Playing off meta gives large disadvantages for little benefit”
“Open PF and you’ll see the trinity is in tact”

PF functionally enforces the trinity and you get little benefit from not using the trinity, that doesn’t mean that trinity is not broken when one role simply isn’t needed. It’s Why nobody in PF will play a healer, because their role isn’t actually nerfed they are just there because PF defaults to assuming you are playing with the trinity. There is little skill playing outside the trinity in something like EX1, it’s just there is no advantage to doing so, that doesn’t mean it’s not indicative of a problem. UCOB is the same, UCOB is broken by potency creep, the worst of the 4 tanks currently DPS wise does more damage than the best DPS at UCOB launch, why bother bringing healers and DPS when the tanks do more than the intended best DPS anyway with 1/4 of the complexity. You can’t do this with healers because of the TB’s. All problems with the trinity come back to the tanks because they are the only role you can’t just remove because nobody else can survive the TB’s, the only time you can consider it is if WAR can holmgang every buster itself

The fact that the system enforces the trinity is not an argument that the trinity isn’t broken