How do we feel about tank damage right now?

Its the game's fault for not having enough tank mechanics. Simply they need to increase the amount of tank busters, tank swaps and add more add phases instead of just making tanks second rate dps.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'd like if tanks had more necessary tank things to do. Currently it's just pressing a CD or two, and maybe Provoke/Shirk 3 times per fight. If there an add you hit it and you don't aim the boss at your dps. Sure you can rotate cd's efficiently to make your healers life easier but it's not necessary or part of your job, just a bonus. Emnity is done for you now.

This basically leaves dps by far as the bulk of what makes up your role.

It'd be great if tanking was an active role, that you spent the fight making full use of a toolkit with a wide range of mitigation and self heal tools, to survive a boss that was hitting like a truck. That even your main rotation was designed around mitigation and that dps could sacrifice that and was only something a very good player could push as a bonus. But it isn't. They should give us tanking that involves real tanking, but since they refuse to do that and make us glorified dps-dealing punching bags, we shouldn't hit like wet noodles.

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This comment is on the money. The tank role in FFXIV is in an awful state and there are two options to address that. They can either 1) give tanks a full suite of powerful mitigation tools that are necessary and needed for the player and the party to stay alive or 2) give tanks more damage to properly reflect the moment-to-moment gameplay of the role, which is currently just doing damage.

The first option requires an overhaul of tank jobs, changes to healer jobs to account for the massively increased utility of another role, and an adjustment to ALL of the game's content.

And this is why the discussion is about damage, because we all know that will never happen.

Giving the tanks a 1k bump in dps, though? Doable.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Giving the tanks a 1k bump in dps, though? Doable.

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Ever consider maybe the problem is that the damage rotation itself has very little room to actually excel in?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Ever consider maybe the problem is that the damage rotation itself has very little room to actually excel in?

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I'm not sure I get what you're suggesting, but if I understand then there are ultimately two options if you allow more room for tanks to "excel" in damage.

1) Tanks who "excel" are able to do more damage than now, solving the issue of tanks being very low impact compared to the other roles. This would be good

2) Tanks can "excel" in their role but the damage ceiling remains the same, and bad tanks do even less damage. So tanks doing their job properly end up working harder for the same contribution.

The second scenario is unacceptable. The first is good, but this is essentially a roundabout way of saying that tanks need more damage, and I'm not really concerning myself with the how right now. Whether they change the rotation, adjust the formula for tank damage so that we get more out of the current rotation, or just straight up increase potencies, doesn't really matter. If tanks get more damage out of it, then that's fine.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

2) Tanks can "excel" in their role but the damage ceiling remains the same, and bad tanks do even less damage. So tanks doing their job properly end up working harder for the same contribution.

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What exactly is wrong with this level of contribution other than "I don't like it"?

You have 8 glasses and a bucket. The glasses have 3 sets, and every glass within its set is the same size. The bucket's size is equal to the total volume of the 8 glasses multiplied by .8.

No matter how you adjust the the glasses, the bucket will always require .8 from each glass to be filled to the top. If you make one set of glasses bigger, the bucket increases. If you make one set of the glasses smaller, the bucket decreases.

To fill the bucket, you must use all three sets.

Explain to me why the glasses of one set should be bigger or smaller, as long as the glasses within the set are the same size.

I guess I can throw my 2 cents in. I don't see why people care about the numbers themselves, tbh. At the end of the day, does it REALLY matter if you're pulling 100 DPS or 1,000,000 DPS? Thats not to say I don't understand being frustrated,or disappointed, in your role, I'm a SCH main, you best believe I understand that, but at the end of the day, numbers is just numbers. To use SCH as an example, I am frustrated at the changes to DPS, not in the numbers themselves, those don't bother me, but rather how I achieve those numbers. I hate that I can get a 96th percentile parse doing almost nothing but spamming 1 button and stopping on occasion to press the dot button. So I could certainly understand feeling like you don't have enough to do, but I don't understand why increasing potencies alone would fix that. Maybe adding some new attacks into your rotation, sure,I could see that helping, but not making ones you already have hit harder.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I guess I can throw my 2 cents in. I don't see why people care about the numbers themselves, tbh. At the end of the day, does it REALLY matter if you're pulling 100 DPS or 1,000,000 DPS? Thats not to say I don't understand being frustrated,or disappointed, in your role, I'm a SCH main, you best believe I understand that, but at the end of the day, numbers is just numbers. To use SCH as an example, I am frustrated at the changes to DPS, not in the numbers themselves, those don't bother me, but rather how I achieve those numbers. I hate that I can get a 96th percentile parse doing almost nothing but spamming 1 button and stopping on occasion to press the dot button. So I could certainly understand feeling like you don't have enough to do, but I don't understand why increasing potencies alone would fix that. Maybe adding some new attacks into your rotation, sure,I could see that helping, but not making ones you already have hit harder.

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This likely what most tanks are going to be saying... at the very least DRK/WAR players. GNB/PLD have a flow that doesn't feel like there is a long 'downtime period' so to speak. WAR/DRK well once delirium/IR go on cooldown the jobs become quite a boring thing to play. Especially WAR who as the lowest APM on top of the fewest OGCDs of all the tanks to the point where if you ask any WAR how it plays they will say "IR is great... but everything else kinda sucks".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

What exactly is wrong with this level of contribution other than "I don't like it"?

You have 8 glasses and a bucket. The glasses have 3 sets, and every glass within its set is the same size. The bucket's size is equal to the total volume of the 8 glasses multiplied by .8.

No matter how you adjust the the glasses, the bucket will always require .8 from each glass to be filled to the top. If you make one set of glasses bigger, the bucket increases. If you make one set of the glasses smaller, the bucket decreases.

To fill the bucket, you must use all three sets.

Explain to me why the glasses of one set should be bigger or smaller, as long as the glasses within the set are the same size.

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We all understand how the damage distribution works, what we are discussing is whether that damage distribution between the roles is appropriate and how it leaves one role feeling less impactful than others. I've also addressed this exact question multiple times, including the actual OP, and most recently here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5188337

It essentially boils down to asking why, if tanks are going to have the damage of a support, do they not have a full bar of powerful personal and party mitigation tools that are necessary and needed to complete content. If I'm going to do the damage of a support role, then I need more than a watered down dps rotation for my moment-to-moment gameplay. Where are my skills that I use consistently and frequently to tank like the healer's heals? Because pressing a mitigation skill every 60-90 seconds ain't it.

If managing my damage rotation is going to be 99% of my gameplay, then I'm going to need to do more damage than a healer role who gets all these powerful heals and then has a one-button rotation for damage.

This may or may not be something that matters to you, but this is not about whether the role CAN contribute, it's about HOW it contributes. This is something that will be a matter of opinion, but hopefully we can at least reach that understanding and stop going in circles about how the damage distribution between roles works.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except, no?
What, are you suddenly going to not care about pushing your damage just because your cap is lower than where you think it should be?
Because -that- makes everyone work harder.
Further, given that every tank in Stormblood, other than Warrior, contributed no actual boosts to the party, if you go back to those data logs and start pruning the bonuses they benefited from, it actually is pretty comparable to our situation now.
Shave off 7-8% from Paladin/Dark Knight, and 10% from warrior. And that's just from slashing, and if you want to be 'technical' about it, you shave off 5%, since you usually had a Samurai or Ninja in the party as well. 6.6% if both.

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Didnt know only tanks used to benefit from team wide bonuses... duh

Shave off these percents from DPS and see what you will get.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Didnt know only tanks used to benefit from team wide bonuses... duh

Shave off these percents from DPS and see what you will get.

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You get less drastic reductions because it was the DPS and non-White mages bringing those boosts.

The only things the tanks brought was slashing, and that was only warrior, and it wasn't unique to them.

Samurai, Black Mage, and Machinist are the ones who dip once we start pruning.

Ninja shoots up. Dragoon shoots -way up-. Bard might be equivalent to where it is now, but likely raises just a tad. Red mage goes up. Summoner goes up. Astro goes up. Scholar goes down a bit.

Tanks?

They -tank-, with the exception of Warrior since it brought its own Slashing.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Guess what I am trying to say is I know their are other things SE could do to make tanks more engaging to play, but I do not see them doing it and so I go with the next best thing that has provided me with a sense of engagement which was damage.

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This is my concern as well. But given that SE tends to have a decent reading of the pulse of the player base, I would rather advocate for increased tanky stuff to do instead of a more dps-focused approach.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Didnt know only tanks used to benefit from team wide bonuses... duh

Shave off these percents from DPS and see what you will get.

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This is another misunderstanding. Any class that does not provide a group bonus only gets a benefit from other group bonuses. Furthermore, a number of group buffs that existed in SB no longer exist in ShB. A perfect example is WAR; it provided a slashing debuff in SB, which was a raw 10% increase in damage dealt by anyone who did slashing damage (which was all tanks, NIN's and SAM's). But NIN's and SAM's also provided the slashing debuff, so the only time the WAR contributed damage to the party was if there was no NIN or SAM, and if the other tank was not a WAR. Since it's fair to say that a NIN, SAM or WAR was almost always in a party, every PLD or DRK likely had a 10% boost to their damage as a baseline. In turn, this means that the raw damage of the PLD and DRK (and WAR for that matter, since it brought a slashing debuff that is no longer in game) is padded by an additional 10% due to the slashing debuff that no longer exists in ShB. This adds another layer of difference between SB tank damage % and ShB tank damage %. Essentially, you want to take about 10% of the damage away from all SB tank stats in order to get a better idea of what actual tank damage was.

If we go by the numbers quoted in this thread (tanks are doing ~75% of dps damage as of the end of SB while in ShB tanks are doing about 60% of dps damage) then subtracting 10% brings SB tank damage down to ~67.5% of what dps were doing. That's a difference of 7.5%, which statistically is almost within the margin of error. Considering other buffs that have been lost (Foe's Req, BRD's passive song crit bonuses,, MCH overcharge or whatever it was called) it's reasonable to assume that at least some of the difference in ShB vs. SB tank damage is a result of the padding of tank dps due to the greater amount of buffs that tanks would benefit from. It's also important to note that SCH and DRG crit boosts will scale better as gear ilvl rises due to the increasing power of crit as a sub-stat, so you'll see higher overall numbers later on in an xpac due to crits hitting harder and more frequently.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I can understand "it feels bad" but please understand that "it feels bad" is also selfish. Content is clearable well within margins of error right now with things the way they are. Asking for more dps simply because "it feels bad" is not a reason to throw job balance on the line. The jobs are all balanced for the content in the game right now. Fights are being cleared in about the same amount of time as they were in the last raid tier. Without the presence of an outside dps meter, there's no way anyone would know that they are dealing less % damage, because the entirety of the game is designed to be beaten with things the way they are now.

So while yes I do understand "it feels bad," it's ultimately a stupid, selfish reason. Not to say you yourself are stupid, but that this reasoning is stupid. Wanting bigger numbers simply because you want bigger numbers is stupid when it would come at the cost of what is arguably the most balanced the tanks have ever been. Furthermore, as others have noted in this post, comparing across roles is a bad idea in general, and not something that should be used as a metric for balancing damage, so using that as an argument is disingenuous at best and actively malicious at worst.

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man theres a whole lot of self opinion pushing here.

How am i selfish for wanting to contribute more to my entire party?

How is asking for all 4 tanks to be raised back up percentage wise to what they were literally doing last expansion which worked just fine "throwing job balance on the line" It worked before why would it suddenly not?

Tanks want bigger numbers just like literally every single job in the game does, whether its healing numbers or damage, sadly damage mitigated doesn't exactly show up anywhere noticeable.

Why is comparing damage across roles a bad idea? Do tanks and healers do different kind of damage? Maybe bosses should have 3 health bars, 1 for DPS, 1 for tanks, and 1 for healers? The entire problem right now is healers are doing damage comparatively to tanks despite having literally 2-3 buttons to care about, DPS have tons more with tanks hovering in the middle. The overall party damage should be split tanks doing 70-75% of a DPS and healers 50% but its basically tied at a measly 60ish%

Raising all 4 tanks up by 10-15% wouldn't break the tank balance so i don't even know what point this even makes.

I'm not even sure what your big crusade in this thread is even about. Its great that content is clearable as things are but so what? Do you only care about clearing a fight and not how quickly you can do it? That's fine if you dont, but some of us do. Do you not care about your damage as a tank? All power to you but then why are you even in this thread since you don't seem to care? those of us that do care would like our contribution to actually feel more meaningful. you would be playing the game as you always have been. Arguing that without fflogs we wouldn't know is pointless, it exists and will from now on, we all know what each job is doing, its how the game is balanced. Right now the balance is /off/

Saying that how a job feels shouldnt matter is grossly wrong. Thats the reason paladin sat in the graveyard for all of heavensward. Same with monk, same with machinest in stormblood, the jobs felt bad whether it was their damage or gameplay or both.

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Originally Posted by LazyC

man theres a whole lot of self opinion pushing here.

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Yeah.

That person just above this post is giving us a prime example.

(Feel like I have to clarify. I mean you, the person I have quoted.)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah.

That person just above this post is giving us a prime example.

(Feel like I have to clarify. I mean you, the person I have quoted.)

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Same as you. Get over it that people have different opinions. Just because you want tanks to be less important doesn't mean other tanks feel the same.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Same as you. Get over it that people have different opinions. Just because you want tanks to be less important doesn't mean other tanks feel the same.

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Changing the leading digit doesn't make tanks more or less important. You're still going to bring twoi.

And I never said I was excluded from the opinion making.

I will point out that every time this particular kind of thread comes up (It used to be Accessories, then it used to be Accessory scaling, at one point it was Tank Stance penalties) that no matter what change occurred, the overall placing of tanks didn't change.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Changing the leading digit doesn't make tanks more or less important. You're still going to bring twoi.

And I never said I was excluded from the opinion making.

I will point out that every time this particular kind of thread comes up (It used to be Accessories, then it used to be Accessory scaling, at one point it was Tank Stance penalties) that no matter what change occurred, the overall placing of tanks didn't change.

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Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

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Originally Posted by VeolE

Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

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It tells me that tanks have fragile egos, and that people are great at looking at graphs but not digging at actual data.

To summarize everything I've said so far.

A) If you want tanks to have more damage, the easiest and least jarring way to do this is enemy vulnerabilities. It's scaling contribution, thematically appropriate, and traditionally a tank boon and responsibility.
B) Ultimately, adjusting their damage up or down through potency boosts alone doesn't change anything about their relative contribution. Content health will be tuned up or down by a proportional amount to their theoretical output, even should A) come along.
C) The Omega data sets people reference are heavily skewed by padding. Of all the jobs, the Tanks and the Only-DPS dip the most once those pads are removed and added back to where they belong (The RDPS metric used now).

What difference does it make if the White Mage or any healer is capable of keeping up? To echo the OP in one of his replies, why does this -threaten- you? Why does this require such an immediate remedy?

Why shouldn't a healer be capable of keeping up with tanks or even surpassing them? For both of them, their very high second priority to their primary responsibilities is -damage-. Why should the healers be a significant amount behind tanks? Should they not be allowed to push their damage as much as they can?

You could argue that tanks primarily interact with enemies - Sure. But that doesn't mean their damage should be higher. It just means their interactions with enemies need to be more varied than a healers, who split their attention between party condition and enemy interaction, but in practice, anyone who has played healers in higher end content knows you're mostly rotating OGCDs and minimizing GCD healing as much as possible - AKA they're interacting with the enemy almost as much as tanks are.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

You completely skip the arguements of tanks which are "We all got nerfed from what we were scaled at beforehand." How would you like your job to get their scaling nerfed next expansion? How about your entire role and force other to have to work harder for something that is completely out of your control.

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Every job in every expansion gets "Nerfed" the second they hit level X1 (51, 61, 71) with new scaling.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Every job in every expansion gets "Nerfed" the second they hit level X1 (61, 71, 81, 91) with new scaling.

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Yup. And most of us who have been here for awhile have seen the same cycle come with every xpac release, with the same argument given a fresh coat of paint each time.

I think tanks should have some vulnerability debuff to aplly on the boss at least.

Smething unique only the tank can do.It would also thematicallyu make sense imo since they're the one facing and tanking the boss, they should be better than just being more beefy while dealing a bit less than the others.

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Originally Posted by VeolE

Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

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Is it possible that a WHM can out DPS a tank? Yes but only in fringe circumstances where the WHM is playing the absolute best they can, where they don't heal much at all.

And those fringe cases are generally accepted to be outliers and shouldn't be used to balance jobs. Because in average cases of healer vs tank damage, tank wins every time.

Again, if you're concerned about DPS numbers, play a DPS, the primary role assigned to do damage.

Average DPS numbers

^^ That box in the middle is what you need to be looking at, not the very far right edge of healers compared to the very far left edge of tanks.

However, ultimately it's up to SE and they've decided that they don't want tanks and healers to be large contributors to raid damage.

Do I agree with it? As a healer No. I'd love to have more complex things to do during downtime that just 2111111111111. Be grateful that's not your damage rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Do I have to live with it? As a player playing their games, Yes.

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Originally Posted by LazyC

man theres a whole lot of self opinion pushing here.

How am i selfish for wanting to contribute more to my entire party?

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If you want to completely ignore everything I said in the post immediately before yours, by all means, go ahead.

War needs more DMG.
Fell cleave need to be 690 potency
Eye buff 30 to 40
Gap closer A freebie skill
Drk need QOL(which leads more dmg).
remove salted earth put dot effect on abyssal drain.
Blood weapon add 1 sec more.
Summon Fray 120 secs to 90 secs.
Add DH on delirium

those classes shouldn't be beated by a PLD

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Is it possible that a WHM can out DPS a tank? Yes but only in fringe circumstances where the WHM is playing the absolute best they can, where they don't heal much at all.
And those fringe cases are generally accepted to be outliers and shouldn't be used to balance jobs. Because in average cases of healer vs tank damage, tank wins every time.

Again, if you're concerned about DPS numbers, play a DPS, the primary role assigned to do damage.

Average DPS numbers
^^ That box in the middle is what you need to be looking at, not the very far right edge of healers compared to the very far left edge of tanks.
However, ultimately it's up to SE and they've decided that they don't want tanks and healers to be large contributors to raid damage.
Do I agree with it? As a healer No. I'd love to have more complex things to do during downtime that just 2111111111111. Be grateful that's not your damage rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Do I have to live with it? As a player playing their games, Yes.

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This is what blizzard said before they buffed tanks into DPS monsters who could literally solo dungeons (DK).

The amount of tanks in WoW was so pathetic because of this philosophy that was driven in blizzard "dps for dps, tank for tank duuh" people were unable to use DF because it took infinite amount of time to find anything nobody wanted to play useless meat that cant do anything.
FFXIV is not any different in this matter, its even worse.
Not buffing tanks making them funnier to play will hurt everyone in the long run, eot.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

War needs more DMG
<snip>
those classes shouldn't be beated by a PLD

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And...why not? Admittedly, "beaten" isn't ideal, either, but why shouldn't PLD have roughly the exact same rDPS as DRK or WAR?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

This is what blizzard said before they buffed tanks into DPS monsters who could literally solo dungeons (DK).

The amount of tanks in WoW was so pathetic because of this philosophy that was driven in blizzard "dps for dps, tank for tank duuh" people were unable to use DF because it took infinite amount of time to find anything nobody wanted to play useless meat that cant do anything.
FFXIV is not any different in this matter, its even worse.
Not buffing tanks making them funnier to play will hurt everyone in the long run, eot.

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Yeah, I'm going to say that following in the design footsteps of Blizzard is not the right path to take. There's already enough homogenization between the tanks, we don't need to blur the lines between tanks and dps while we're at it. I'll reiterate what I said earlier; bring more engagement to tanks via tanky stuff. Group-wide mitigations and what not.

if they Leave tanks as is, players will leave the tank role. simple as that. if you want tanks to tank, it better be fun. You want to argue against tanks, have fun finding them in queue. Enmity is a joke now. tank damage out is a joke. boss damage against tanks is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

if they Leave tanks as is, players will leave the tank role. simple as that. if you want tanks to tank, it better be fun. You want to argue against tanks, have fun finding them in queue. Enmity is a joke now. tank damage out is a joke. boss damage against tanks is a joke.

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Oh man.

5 is so much less fun than 6.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

FFXIV is not any different in this matter, its even worse. .

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Currently since 5.0 we've had a healer shortage, not a tank shortage. For a myriad of reasons. Tanks aren't the special ones they used to be.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Not buffing tanks making them funnier to play will hurt everyone in the long run, eot.

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If Big Numbers are your definition of fun there's 10 jobs that fill that role perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Yeah, I'm going to say that following in the design footsteps of Blizzard is not the right path to take. There's already enough homogenization between the tanks, we don't need to blur the lines between tanks and dps while we're at it. I'll reiterate what I said earlier; bring more engagement to tanks via tanky stuff. Group-wide mitigations and what not.

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Agree with this. Healers should be the ones with the Defensive buffs (Shell CD for Magic, Protect for Physical etc)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Oh man.

5 is so much less fun than 6.

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So long as 6 has new breakpoints that allow for more intensive and deliberate play, yes... yes it is.

Let's keep in mind that the argument you're replying to wasn't just about tank damage. It was also about enmity and damage taken, for instance.

Think of it like one of those output- or stat-distributions into a square or pentagram, each vertex marking some output. Previously there was a greater min-max range between any of those outputs, be it damage, or mitigation, or means of supporting the party. Now, it's almost static. There's little to push or pull on. Part of being a tank before was about deciding how we should spend our time, even if the answers were usually similarly narrow.

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

if they Leave tanks as is, players will leave the tank role. simple as that. if you want tanks to tank, it better be fun. You want to argue against tanks, have fun finding them in queue. Enmity is a joke now. tank damage out is a joke. boss damage against tanks is a joke.

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Players who are obsessed with damage will leave the tank role, which is fine because they never belonged in it in the first place. It's like all the SCH's who left SCH at the beginning of ShB because they couldn't "dps" like they used too. Those SCH's weren't SCH's, they were dps who wanted fast queue times. If a player is playing tank for the damage, and is going to leave because of a perceived lack of damage, then they aren't a tank and need to be honest with themselves and start playing a dps.

As I (and others) have stated, an argument could be made (and should be made imo) that more complexity can be added to tanks via tank-style stuff such as mitigation or threat management. But fundamentally, tanks are tanks, and tanking is what comes first. If a person is turned off by the damage a tank or healer does instead of being turned on by the tankiness or heal capability of those jobs, then that's not a problem with the job, that's a problem with the player.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So long as 6 has new breakpoints that allow for more intensive and deliberate play, yes... yes it is.

Let's keep in mind that the argument you're replying to wasn't just about tank damage. It was also about enmity and damage taken, for instance.

Think of it like one of those output- or stat-distributions into a square or pentagram, each vertex marking some output. Previously there was a greater min-max range between any of those outputs, be it damage, or mitigation, or means of supporting the party. Now, it's almost static. There's little to push or pull on. Part of being a tank before was about deciding how we should spend our time, even if the answers were usually similarly narrow.

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Respectfully disagree because in the tank community it largely doesn't come down to how we should spend out time, but bigger numbers. It's almost never, what can I do to make my healers life easier but generally, "They'll pick up the slack, I'm going for more damage!"

Let's be honest, they removed aggro management because the majority of the casual playerbase were complete and irrevocably too stupid to mitigate their own aggro by pressing one or two buttons throughout their opener and then on cooldown subsequently after that, so SE made it easy for the idiots by removing aggro management from the game. So don't know where this delusion is that aggro management will be making some kind of return to make tanks more complex via that route. As for mitigation, tanks already have enough between the two of them to help out the healers, who also have their fair amount of mitigation tools, as mitigation is pretty much a non factor if you have two brain cells.

SE created the environment that led to current tanking meta which thrived in XIV with Gordias, and harsher DPS checks that forced the tanks to do more than spam aggro combos for days. Although the dps checks have become more lenient, tanks are still expected to contribute as much damage as possible, since in this game dps is the only thing that really matters, and people are deluded if they think otherwise. Sure mitigation can only go so far, mechanics can be done in ever so slight a way all for one purpose...you guessed it MOAR DAMAGE. So any worthwhile tank like any other player, would want to see improvements in their chosen role.

Personally if SE wanted to bump all four tanks equally by 1k dps or so, sure I won't say no. The scaling is off for the tanks compared to the DPS as the graphs shown earlier in the thread, I know they changed the tank damage formula, and Yoshi said himself he thinks tanks did too much damage at the end of SB but it feels worse that you used to be that close but now you're miles behind, but still WHM has the capacity to out dps tanks and that needs to be addressed in 5.1, none of these excuses of but only at this tier or that tier, blah blah blah, doesn't change the fact it is able to if the players are good, and at less effort than playing tank.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Players who are obsessed with damage will leave the tank role, which is fine because they never belonged in it in the first place. It's like all the SCH's who left SCH at the beginning of ShB because they couldn't "dps" like they used too. Those SCH's weren't SCH's, they were dps who wanted fast queue times. If a player is playing tank for the damage, and is going to leave because of a perceived lack of damage, then they aren't a tank and need to be honest with themselves and start playing a dps.

As I (and others) have stated, an argument could be made (and should be made imo) that more complexity can be added to tanks via tank-style stuff such as mitigation or threat management. But fundamentally, tanks are tanks, and tanking is what comes first. If a person is turned off by the damage a tank or healer does instead of being turned on by the tankiness or heal capability of those jobs, then that's not a problem with the job, that's a problem with the player.

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That argument falls a bit flat when tanks have all but become buffier DPS. Gunbreaker practically epitomizes this as does Warrior. This tier is especially bad for how little mitigation you actually need outside Titan, which is why tanks notice how low their damage contribution is compared to what it was. And let's be honest here. I suspect the only reason this change occurred is SE didn't like the idea bad players who died would be out-damaged by tanks and feel bad about it.

Personally, I'm not bothered by it enough to complain one way or another. I do think tanks should be above healers if only because a healer's DPS "rotation" is two buttons—one of which they press every 30 seconds. Tanks actually have a rotation. So it's a bit unfair GNB has to jump through hoops to deal comparable damage to a WHM spamming Glare and occasionally Dia.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Respectfully disagree because in the tank community it largely doesn't come down to how we should spend out time, but bigger numbers. It's almost never, what can I do to make my healers life easier but generally, "They'll pick up the slack, I'm going for more damage!"

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Blame encounter design for that. The playerbase merely takes advantage of the tools provided. Presently, there is no reason to over mitigate things at the expensive of your damage regardless of the role you play. For instance, Levi does so little damage, tanks can straight up waste CDs eating the first Temporary Current because it doesn't matter. Likewise, doing things like stacking flares isn't just for tank DPS but the entire party since damage trumps everything in this game. Allowing your tanks to get 3-5 more GCDs while you only trade an Energy Drain for a Soil is a much better exchange.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That argument falls a bit flat when tanks have all but become buffier DPS. Gunbreaker practically epitomizes this as does Warrior. This tier is especially bad for how little mitigation you actually need outside Titan, which is why tanks notice how low their damage contribution is compared to what it was. And let's be honest here. I suspect the only reason this change occurred is SE didn't like the idea bad players who died would be out-damaged by tanks and feel bad about it.

Personally, I'm not bothered by it enough to complain one way or another. I do think tanks should be above healers if only because a healer's DPS "rotation" is two buttons—one of which they press every 30 seconds. Tanks actually have a rotation. So it's a bit unfair GNB has to jump through hoops to deal comparable damage to a WHM spamming Glare and occasionally Dia.



Blame encounter design for that. The playerbase merely takes advantage of the tools provided. Presently, there is no reason to over mitigate things at the expensive of your damage regardless of the role you play. For instance, Levi does so little damage, tanks can straight up waste CDs eating the first Temporary Current because it doesn't matter. Likewise, doing things like stacking flares isn't just for tank DPS but the entire party since damage trumps everything in this game. Allowing your tanks to get 3-5 more GCDs while you only trade an Energy Drain for a Soil is a much better exchange.

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Temporary current will kill a tank. It doesn't even sacrifice the uptime of tanks to dodge it correctly so I dunno why you would do something like that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That argument falls a bit flat when tanks have all but become buffier DPS. Gunbreaker practically epitomizes this as does Warrior. This tier is especially bad for how little mitigation you actually need outside Titan, which is why tanks notice how low their damage contribution is compared to what it was. And let's be honest here. I suspect the only reason this change occurred is SE didn't like the idea bad players who died would be out-damaged by tanks and feel bad about it.

Personally, I'm not bothered by it enough to complain one way or another. I do think tanks should be above healers if only because a healer's DPS "rotation" is two buttons—one of which they press every 30 seconds. Tanks actually have a rotation. So it's a bit unfair GNB has to jump through hoops to deal comparable damage to a WHM spamming Glare and occasionally Dia.



Blame encounter design for that. The playerbase merely takes advantage of the tools provided. Presently, there is no reason to over mitigate things at the expensive of your damage regardless of the role you play. For instance, Levi does so little damage, tanks can straight up waste CDs eating the first Temporary Current because it doesn't matter. Likewise, doing things like stacking flares isn't just for tank DPS but the entire party since damage trumps everything in this game. Allowing your tanks to get 3-5 more GCDs while you only trade an Energy Drain for a Soil is a much better exchange.

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So the solution is to advocate for an even greater dumbing-down and homogenization of gameplay in lieu of advocating for a return to greater complexity?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Temporary current will kill a tank. It doesn't even sacrifice the uptime of tanks to dodge it correctly so I dunno why you would do something like that.

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No, it won't. You can survive quite easily with CDs. You also will lose uptime when Levi splits the platform in two. But don't take my word for it. See for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Quor

So the solution is to advocate for an even greater dumbing-down and homogenization of gameplay in lieu of advocating for a return to greater complexity?

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I wouldn't call increasing tank damage back to what it was as "dumbing-down." And one could argue tanks and healer DPS was homogenized because it's all essentially the same output whereas before the former did more.

Regardless, people have asked for more complexity. The two aren't mutually exclusive nor does what I said still not apply. Tanks have to put in more effort for equal to or less damage than healers spamming two buttons. That being said, we're betting on what horse the devs may actually listen to. While I'd love for boss positioning and debuffs to be something tanks contribute, it's been six years. If they were going to do it. They would have already.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That argument falls a bit flat when tanks have all but become buffier DPS. Gunbreaker practically epitomizes this as does Warrior. This tier is especially bad for how little mitigation you actually need outside Titan, which is why tanks notice how low their damage contribution is compared to what it was. And let's be honest here. I suspect the only reason this change occurred is SE didn't like the idea bad players who died would be out-damaged by tanks and feel bad about it.

Personally, I'm not bothered by it enough to complain one way or another. I do think tanks should be above healers if only because a healer's DPS "rotation" is two buttons—one of which they press every 30 seconds. Tanks actually have a rotation. So it's a bit unfair GNB has to jump through hoops to deal comparable damage to a WHM spamming Glare and occasionally Dia.

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It's the first tier of a raid. Deltascape wasn't any different.

As to the healer dps numbers, I don't get why people are obsessing over it, or even considering an outlier to be representative of the whole. The answer isn't to throw another "1k dps" at tanks. Blanketly increasing the dps of four classes by 10-15% "just cause it feels right" (as has often been suggested in this thread) is not and will never be a good idea. Hell, even the engagement argument falls flat. If tanks are where SE wants them to be, then "engagement" means lopping off ~33% of tank dps from their current rotations and adding it back in on a dot or two and maybe another combo. More work for the same result, but hey, at least you're doing something different right? There's this belief extant in this thread that further complexity of tank rotations will (or should) yield more damage. But as is also noted before, this ignores the fight design SE has in mind. Higher dps on tanks will just equate to higher hp on bosses, further devaluing the contribution of actual dps for no reason other than it will make some tanks "feel good" about their damage.

Given that tank potencies are much higher on average than they were in SB and HW, it's highly unlikely SE will see fit to bump damage up at all, especially if the reasoning is a combination of "but the grass is greener on the dps side of the fence!" and "it feels bad." If it feels bad then you shouldn't be playing a tank. If big numbers make you happy, then (as was also noted in this thread) you have 10 perfectly good jobs to choose from.

Tanks are not dps. Tanks should never be dps, even if dps is a major focus of what they are doing, because tanks are tanks, and they do tank things first and foremost. Advocating for more tank-like stuff to be added to the game to emphasize that playstyle is what a tank should worry about, especially given that current intra-tank balance is the best it's ever been. The last thing this game needs is more homogenization, and turning tanks into "like dps, but tankier" is not the right direction to go. Given that all relevant content is clearable by all jobs right now, it's obvious that things are functioning as intended; no one is being left behind, not as far as tanks are concerned anyway. A dps increase as drastic as has been suggested here on any of the jobs is simply asking for current content to be trivialized for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by Quor

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They haven't had boss positioning in years. What makes you think Eden 5-8 will be any different? Bosses in this game typically teleport to a specific spot for most of their mechanics, thus a core aspect of tanking is often disregarded.

Tank mechanic are few and far in between. All four of them essentially are "DPS, but tankier." Like I said, Gunbreaker epitomizes this so much, it's become a meme the devs designed it as a DPS first only to slap some CDs on it later. Sure, you have more to pay attention to than a Dragoon or Monk but you'll primarily be focusing on your damage due to the nature of this game. There is no way around that because damage is paramount. Furthermore, you're missing the point. Tanks want a bigger separation from healers because they have an actual rotation to maintain. And are punished far more severely if they mess it up. Not to mention, tanks were nerfed. So they're essentially wanting the damage percentage they already had in Stormblood because... there really isn't any reason for them not to have it.

I'll reiterate. It doesn't bother me enough I'll demand changes or stop playing tanks because I still enjoy them. But I'll certainly voice my opinion that lowering their damage arbitrary was unnecessary, especially since I strongly believe the only reason they did it was to make bad DPS players not feel bad that a tank outpaced them.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

They haven't had boss positioning in years. What makes you think Eden 5-8 will be any different? Bosses in this game typically teleport to a specific spot for most of their mechanics, thus a core aspect of tanking is often disregarded.

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E2S Guillotine's will kill people if the boss isn't centered correctly. A real problem on Cycles.

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Tank mechanic are few and far in between. All four of them essentially are "DPS, but tankier." Like I said, Gunbreaker epitomizes this so much, it's become a meme the devs designed it as a DPS first only to slap some CDs on it later. Sure, you have more to pay attention to than a Dragoon or Monk but you'll primarily be focusing on your damage due to the nature of this game. There is no way around that because damage is paramount.

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Which is why I (and others) advocate for increased "tank stuff" to do in lieu of turning us even more into a dps and homogenizing the game even further.

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Furthermore, you're missing the point. Tanks want a bigger separation from healers because they have an actual rotation to maintain. And are punished far more severely if they mess it up. Not to mention, tanks were nerfed. So they're essentially wanting the damage percentage they already had in Stormblood because... there really isn't any reason for them not to have it.

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Tanks were not nerfed. Our damage went up substantially with the release of ShB. If our damage had been lowered by a certain % since the beginning of ShB then that would be a nerf but that hasn't happened. Raw tank damage is much higher than it was in SB. How much that damage has increased relative to other roles is irrelevant because comparing damage across roles is meaningless.

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I'll reiterate. It doesn't bother me enough I'll demand changes or stop playing tanks because I still enjoy them. But I'll certainly voice my opinion that lowering their damage arbitrary was unnecessary, especially since I strongly believe the only reason they did it was to make bad DPS players not feel bad that a tank outpaced them.

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Again, tank damage has not been lowered, it just hasn't been increased as much as it could be. This has had no negative effect on the game; tanks can clear all content, solo, 4-man, and 8-man, without any problems. EX fights were being cleared with ilvl 430 weapons within hours of people reaching 80. Savage was cleared within 24 hours of it's release. The only reason this is any kind of issue is because some people saw a bunch of numbers and decided that their numbers weren't big enough, and that this made their tank job less fun.

Remember; increased complexity isn't going to mean more damage. It'll simply mean damage is shifted from one part of the job kit to another, essentially giving more buttons to press while getting the same return as before. Tank damage is objectively fine right now, both within the tanks and as a part of the larger game. Content is being cleared just fine by a variety of compositions. There is no need for a tank damage buff. There is simply a desire by a small group of people to see larger numbers, and to hell with how this will affect the balance of the game.