7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

A job should not bend to people who can't play it properly, they should learn to play it.

Removing Nastrond Charges because "som ppl los dps ;_;" is absurd.

Give me six nastrond charges now as an apology.

Why shouldnt it?
Some people maybe like the fantasy of the class or the weapon its use. But arent so good with the intended gameplay (like, someone like the idea of beeing a wizard -only the Black mage fit the Basis concept of a wizard- but has problems to keep the timers up, or someone like spears, but has problems to press all the Buttons in the burst mode AND keep track of, what happens in the fight -reaper was so fast with his skills, that i only thought about attacking and didnt noticed my surrounding anymore-).
Adjusting the class is a legit way, that more people can play it.

I was in the new dungeon with the dragon.
Its correctly, that he feels differently and that it feels like, something is missing. But, at the same time does he feel now more relaxed.
The only compromise i would maybe want is, to make Nastrond a 2 charge attack.
Wyvern drive, high jump and Star driver has all a second attack to use. Only Nastrond is now a single attack. A second charge of Nastrond feels more fitting for the flow (or whe count Geirskogul as the first attack).

It feels differently. But in overhaul is the change Ok (esspecialy, when they allready stated, what the plan for Drg rework was).

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Originally Posted by Keichi

But, at the same time does he feel now more relaxed.

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It was already relaxed: the filler is mind-numbing and the 1-minute burst is quite tame.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Why shouldnt it?
Some people maybe like the fantasy of the class or the weapon its use. But arent so good with the intended gameplay

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Then improve. The game is a tab targeting MMO, it doesn't require much skill unless you're doing the optional harder difficulties. If you aren't good enough for the class fantasy, it's wholly a you issue - and people like you and your example should stop gatekeeping actual fun from people by changing things to suit you.

I see a lot of people saying that they'd prefer to have lost Life Surge, and I can definitely understand where that comes from. It's probably a more popular position than what I'm about to suggest as a solution that would have kept the heavy OGCD weaving in burst but still opened up weave slots. As opposed to Starcross being a followup to Stardiver, make it an outright replacement. And I say this as someone who screamed irl when we first saw stardiver's animation, but it is a skill that you can't double-weave alongside anything else, so it takes two weave slots for one button. Removing it and having us just have Starcross still keeps us busy, but opens up the space that this Nastrond change was intended to create. Just to propose an alternative though. If Life Surge got nuked and Nastrond went back to being used 3 times I would not at all be upset about it. I just want the job to not be dull all the way up to level 99.

not gonna lie I resubscribed because of this change. game has way too much going on. content gets harder every expansion and on top of that they add more complexity to the rotations, it's obvious they'd have to tone it down eventually. can't just keep making the game more and more complex forever.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Yeah it makes total sense to design jobs for years and years and then just slowly undo them all because a minority of players want everything to be an "I win" button with 100% crit rates.

I do hope CS3 is happy catering to a base that's probably equivalent to HW subscriber counts. That's where the game is heading if the trend continues after DT.

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it's more like, the game has become increasingly bloated and busy over time. either they will have to dumb down content(worst idea), or streamline job design(best idea).

Forum popularity aside, I think the real minority is people who want this game to feel like a job. Games are supposed to be fun, not overwhelming. Make hard boss fights sure, but the jobs should just feel good to play without needing to make them require a PHD to execute the rotation consistently.

You feel like you need a PhD to perform Dragoon's rotation? o.O

I mean regardless... the DPS checks are light enough that you can get away with plenty of non-optimal play. If people want to optimize past the point of clearing the fight for the sheer enjoyment of it, then let them.

I think it was too complicated, and so do the devs. It became unenjoyable to juggle the oGCDs and positionals. If the game is too demanding for me to enjoy optimal play, why would I play at all? There are very few people who enjoy the experience of "just getting by" with "non-optimal" play. People know what they are expected to do to play the game "right", and if it becomes too demanding they will tend to simply unsubscribe as they will feel that the game is not for them. Why would I continue to play a game that isn't designed for me when there are so many other activities that are designed for me?

People don't like being mediocre or substandard. They want to thrive. If you're so good at the game, then do all the ultimates and become the best dragoon. Are you really that good though? If it's so easy or you want to optimize past the point of just clearing the fight, then do it at the highest level. I don't think you're that good though.

FFXIV is the most profitable thing square has going for them, it has been and remains to be the main source of their income.

I'm confident that you're expressing a minority opinion, and most people don't want rotations designed the way the people who primarily post on the forums do.

What it is is that, people who are unhappy tend to complain, and people who are happy just play the game.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Why would I continue to play a game that isn't designed for me when there are so many other activities that are designed for me?

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I mean... If you want to stop playing a game because one job doesn't cater to you then I don't know what to say. Go ahead?

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Originally Posted by Schan

I mean... If you want to stop playing a game because one job doesn't cater to you then I don't know what to say. Go ahead?

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I mean, I did? Then I resubscribed after they changed the job to be more streamlined this patch. The job is catering to me in reality, not you. Difference between us is that I unsubscribe from the game if I recognize that I disagree with the design, you just continue to play while you complain on the forums. Who do you think they should take seriously?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I mean, I did? Then I resubscribed after they changed the job to be more streamlined this patch. The job is catering to me in reality, not you. Difference between us is that I unsubscribe from the game if I recognize that I disagree with the design, you just continue to play while you complain on the forums. Who do you think they should take seriously?

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Ideally, both. People who complain still care about the game, but eventually they will leave too. If SE wants to ignore the warning signs then it's on them. I really don't want them to pull a Blizzard but it seems we're heading that way.

But overall, I agree. Loyalty is not a thing that gets rewarded be it in game or in your professional life.

SE is not very... savy. Just look at the 2135674845 gacha games they've made and shut down.

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Originally Posted by Schan

Ideally, both. People who complain still care about the game, but eventually they will leave too. If SE wants to ignore the warning signs then it's on them. I really don't want them to pull a Blizzard but it seems we're heading that way.

But overall, I agree. Loyalty is not a thing that gets rewarded be it in game or in your professional life.

SE is not very... savy. Just look at the 2135674845 gacha games they've made and shut down.

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Why would you be rewarded for being happy enough to continue to play the game? You're already content enough to keep playing. If anything, people who are unhappy with the game enough to unsubscribe are the ones who should be rewarded. I want to play the game but couldn't justify it because I didn't like the state of the game enough.

Then when they change the game to make me happy, I reward them in turn by resubscribing. This is a business, not a friendship.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Why would you be rewarded for being happy enough to continue to play the game? You're already content enough to keep playing. If anything, people who are unhappy with the game enough to unsubscribe are the ones who should be rewarded. I want to play the game but couldn't justify it because I didn't like the state of the game enough.

Then when they change the game to make me happy, I reward them in turn by resubscribing. This is a business, not a friendship.

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What you seem to miss is that you need an active sub to even post on the forums, meaning that if you just unsub then you're not sending any specific message to the devs about what you take issue with. That's what this thread is, sending the message about what we think is wrong with a change as it happens, to be clear that we don't like it. And considering this is by far the most active thread right now in the jobs section of the EN forums, and everyone except you who has posted here has been actively displeased with this change, there's a good chance that message comes across so we don't need to take more drastic action in response. Though also to be clear, I expect from reading most of these replies that there will absolutely people who unsub as a result of this change if it's not reverted as well, we're just giving the devs a chance to fix it before that happens.

I picked up the job in Shadowbringers and what made me fall in love with it was a combination of a healthy balance of positional actions, a fun job gauge to manage, jumping actions with animation locks and interesting ogcds. Its gcd rotation has since being extremely simple and has suffered from a boring leveling process because of that.

With Endwalker and the 2min meta, job gauge was trivialized and they started decreasing the animation locks in jumps and I felt great part of the skill expression and ceilling was gone, but I still could enjoy it. Now with Dawntrail we lost positionals and ogcds, and it no longer retains anything that made it interesting for me. I could still accept Drakesbane not being a positional in exchange fore more ogcds, but losing the last bit of its identity is where I draw the line. This job is no longer fun for me.

Now it is an extremely simple gcd rotation for a while with a few ogcds every minute. No need to plan around anything and no failure state, I can only see this state appealing to players who want to be good at the game while refusing to learn it. What even is the point of playing a game if I can not lose?

It is a shame because encounter design so far is being very good this expansion, but I can not experience it in a way I like. I know this trend of striking is already a meme, and it will achieve nothing, but I will not be playing this job until these changes are reverted or compensated. I offer some suggestions:

-Make the single use of Nastrond more interesting. For example, getting inspiration from PvP dragoon where it is an execute, it could deal more damage the later into Life of the Dragon you use it, dealing maximum damage if executed withing the last 5 seconds (4 last ogcds).
-Give other ogcds more interesting effects instead of being potency dumps. For example, Stardiver could increase damage dealt for 8s, allowing you to time it with your 3 strongest gcds and 4 strongest ogcds.
-Make Life Surge interesting. As many other players have discussed above, this ability does not feel impactful or fun. For example, potency of Raiden Thrust or Drakesbane (only one of them) could be significantly increased if it is used after Life Surge, to a point where it overpowers other gcd actions. This would make it feel better to use and plan around, especially when your gcd lines up to do that twice in burst window.
-Allow stacking a third charge of Firstminds' Focus. This would guarantee the usage of a second cast of Wyrmwind Thrust during most buff windows given you plan around it and execute it correctly outside of burst, without allowing a third one.

I would love for other dragoon players to offer and discuss more alternatives, I am sure not all of my suggestions will seem fun for everyone. And I mean dragoon players, not players who used the job in a dungeon once or twice.

In conclusion, dragoon was never broken so I feel offended as a player for this excuse of a fix.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

What you seem to miss is that you need an active sub to even post on the forums, meaning that if you just unsub then you're not sending any specific message to the devs about what you take issue with. That's what this thread is, sending the message about what we think is wrong with a change as it happens, to be clear that we don't like it. And considering this is by far the most active thread right now in the jobs section of the EN forums, and everyone except you who has posted here has been actively displeased with this change, there's a good chance that message comes across so we don't need to take more drastic action in response. Though also to be clear, I expect from reading most of these replies that there will absolutely people who unsub as a result of this change if it's not reverted as well, we're just giving the devs a chance to fix it before that happens.

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You know when you unsub it gives you a prompt to explain why you're unsubbing right? Who are they going to consider, people who remain subbed while giving kneejerk reactions on the forums, or people who unsub and explain why they are unhappy with the game in the space provided to voice your reasoning for unsubbing?

I almost guarantee none of the people complaining in this thread are going to unsub from the game as a result of these changes. You'll throw a little fit, adapt, and realize that the devs actually know what they are doing and it is better this way.

I miss shadowbringers DRG, for me it was THE perfect job back then, the rotation was super fun and smooth and had a lot of room for optimization, now I feel like the job is just another melee with barely any identity

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

You'll throw a little fit, adapt, and realize that the devs actually know what they are doing and it is better this way.

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Frankly, in this case I don't think they do, and I have plenty of examples for that. As I stated in the initial post, my biggest concern is how the job feels with this change from levels 70-90. Which is to say, it feels AWFUL in any pre-level 100 content now. Forget feeling busy, if you single-weave your OGCDs at level 70 you run out of buttons to press in your burst less than halfway through your bugg timers. If you do double weave it happens sooner, and even at level 90 you can spend nearly half of your "burst window" just doing your basic rotation because the devs have taken away the ability to do anything else. And this isn't the first time they've implemented a job change in a way that leaves a job feeling miserable at an earlier level. Viper's changes have that job feeling empty until you hit level 90. Reaper was implemented in a way that felt not fun until level 80 and has received no change to that. A ton of the tanks and healers are notably missing key tools at these levels, and the devs have shown no interest in addressing any of that. With all that said, I wanted to also address some of the other comments you've made.

"content gets harder every expansion and on top of that they add more complexity to the rotations"

This literally doesn't happen. This Savage tier was one of the easiest in a very long time, and jobs always get some amount of pruning (as did DRG going into DT) to ensure that to the devs' standard the jobs remain at a similar level of complexity from expansion to expansion.

"I think the real minority is people who want this game to feel like a job." "...the jobs should just feel good to play without needing to make them require a PHD to execute the rotation consistently."

If needing to press buttons faster for 20 seconds every two minutes "feels like a job" or "requires a PhD" in your eyes that really does seem more like a problem with you, plus there are plenty of jobs that do not have that playstyle that you can try. DRG is the job that has this identity, and clearly it is an identity that its players very much enjoy.

"There are very few people who enjoy the experience of "just getting by" with "non-optimal" play."

Pictured above: a person who has never done an expert roulette in their entire life lmao

"most people don't want rotations designed the way the people who primarily post on the forums do."

I think you missed the sheer number of replies to this thread that start with "I don't normally post on the forums" or even "I made a forum account specifically to express my concerns about this." People are coming from other places to make their voices heard, because the forums are the one place the devs actually look at feedback.

I applaud HeavenlyArmed's patience but I honestly don't see much point in debating with "Dragoon level 92" who has never tried the rotation at 100.

Like... please try the rotation before deciding you know better than all the people who have played the class?

I find this change genuinely so hard to understand, part of what made Dragoon fun and unique was that it had so many buttons to press. Limiting Nastrond to a single use per Geirskogul doesn't enhance the job's game play in any way, it just makes it more simplistic and less fun. Dragoon being as good as it was in 6.0 was one of the main reasons I played the game. The job was fun then, it was fun in 7.0, although I think the changes made to the job in 7.0 were also unnecessary. But these changes to Nastrond are a definite step in the wrong direction and make me want to not play the job at all. I really hope that this change is reversed as soon as possible, and we get 3 charges back. As others on this forum have said, a potency buff does NOT make up for a loss in button presses that make the job actively fun.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

I think you missed the sheer number of replies to this thread that start with "I don't normally post on the forums" or even "I made a forum account specifically to express my concerns about this." People are coming from other places to make their voices heard, because the forums are the one place the devs actually look at feedback.

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HikariKurosawa is a known forum troll. He had to have basic concepts of DRG explained to him in a previous thread where he was running his mouth about things he didn't understand. Just ignore him.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

You know when you unsub it gives you a prompt to explain why you're unsubbing right? Who are they going to consider, people who remain subbed while giving kneejerk reactions on the forums, or people who unsub and explain why they are unhappy with the game in the space provided to voice your reasoning for unsubbing?

I almost guarantee none of the people complaining in this thread are going to unsub from the game as a result of these changes. You'll throw a little fit, adapt, and realize that the devs actually know what they are doing and it is better this way.

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I literally cancelled my sub as soon as I found out about the change. I'm able to keep posting because I did have a 180 day renewing sub ongoing, and happen to have a fair bit left. But have I logged in since Tuesday maintenance? Nope.
And the prompt for why you're quitting is laughable, they don't give an 'Other' option with text box to leave a detailed response as to why you're quitting. The closest you can get it 'I am no longer interested in playing'.
I won't even consider resubbing unless they start reverting this change and a plethora of others that are taking jobs, not just DRG but all of them frankly, down this road of them becoming the same 1-2-3 with different animations and 3 oGCD's to press in their designated two minute window. Homogenisation and oversimplification is killing this game.
I and a lot of others I'm sure have faith in the Devs in most areas, but clearly job design isn't one of them.

Posting for the first time to agree here. It's just notably less fun to execute burst with this change, and it should be rolled back.

A lot of the enjoyment I got out of DRG came from balancing the busy burst with fight mechanics. It may not be my main job, but the busyness along with the extra wrinkle that came from fights like DSR, needing to frantically weave and retarget to aim all of the cleaves, made coming to grips with it genuinely some of the most fun I've had playing XIV.

Much as I want to be optimistic about what they're going to cook up with the job reworks down the line, it shouldn't need to have its kit pared down so long before they plan to add anything new. I'd rather keep it as it was pre 7.1 and be excited about how they'll shake things up in 8.0 than dread each patch taking away something I value from the job as it currently is.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

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That's fine and all but it's not your game, it's the dev's game. You're free to make your own mmo that has annoyingly complex and busy rotations. That's not what sells though.

Most of these decisions are made in mind with catering to the majority because that's how you make financially successful games. The stockholders wouldn't allow changes to be implemented if they weren't going to increase the financial success of the game.

This is capitalism and it's good, because it is a system where the majority rule. Maximizing how many people are happy with the game design should always be the goal, who cares if a minority of people are unhappy because they lost the complexity they desire. Most people don't desire that. Create your own game.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

That's not what sells though.

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Ah, the good old "but it makes money" argument, used when you have nothing else to say. Tell me this then, how exactly did Square made money in ShB and EW, when DRG had, y'know, actual job mechanics and was FUN to play?

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

Ah, the good old "but it makes money" argument, used when you have nothing else to say. Tell me this then, how exactly did Square made money in ShB and EW, when DRG had, y'know, actual job mechanics and was FUN to play?

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They made less money than they do now.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

They made less money than they do now.

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So all of those money are made just because of DRG changes? Really doubt that. Also wonder how much Square is making thanks to BLM rn, but I guess its sorry state is also what "capitalism" wants.

And looking at what people say in this thread, they are about to lose some customers, lmao.
But go on, encourage bad job design with "muh capitalism" logic, at least it is hilarious to read.

Anyway, considering he just made the claim that stockholders greenlight dev decisions, I think we're all safe to ignore the troll and get back to the important discussion of wanting classes that are actually engaging to play. Particularly concerning about the troll's commentary was the total refusal to acknowledge the state of lower level DRG. Which again, you run out of buttons to press for your burst after 3 GCDs at level 70, 4 at level 80 and 5 at level 90, and you aren't even spamming double-weaves to achieve this. Anyone who says that is too much for them isn't giving you a serious opinion.

"I don't like what they are saying because it goes against what I want so they're a troll"

Lower level dragoon is a separate issue and has nothing to do with high level dragoon.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

I think we're all safe to ignore the troll and get back to the important discussion of wanting classes that are actually engaging to play.

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Yeah, there's nothing of value that person can provide to this conversation. What a waste of time.

Anyway, an idea that finally clicked for me as a better option than this is, as many people have suggested, working Life Surge into being a trait rather than a button. I was struggling with it before due to not being able to think of a way to cleanly adapt it, but it's really not that difficult to do in a way that would likely not even change the balance of the job very much. Just make Life Surge a part of Lance Charge, so during Lance Charge any time you use Full Thrust, Heaven's Thrust, and upon the upgrade at level 88, Drakesbane, the skill automaitcally crits. Doing this frees up those button presses allowing the return of the triple Nastrond, and makes burst windows still feel satisfying from a damage perspective due to the guaranteed crits.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Actually bc of SHB, they actually had the most popular MMO at the time going into EW and their yearly operating income was higher for the fiscal year than what they are on track to do this year, by a lot actually. Part of that is other flops in HD games now, but back then they specifically called out EW as delivering huge results for the entire company's bottom line.

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Surely had nothing to do with the blizzard fiasco and asmongold influencing a large portion of WoW's playerbase to try out FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Just make Life Surge a part of Lance Charge, so during Lance Charge any time you use Full Thrust, Heaven's Thrust, and upon the upgrade at level 88, Drakesbane, the skill automaitcally crits.

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Life Surge provides at least a little bit of (quite situational) decision making, so I wouldn't want it to be gone. But if it is either LS or Nastrond and there's no way to keep them as in pre-7.1, then getting rid of LS is a better option.

Stop replying to the monkey

Coming here to voice my support, this is one of the worst job changes to take place since I started playing in Shadowbringers. What is the job design team thinking? Is nothing sacred? If you thought the job was too busy, maybe you shouldn't have given it two boring, generic followups to its iconic jumps, and instead focused on iterating on its gameplay in any meaningful way. I haven't even finished leveling the job to 100 because I already disliked the removal of the eye gauge and the changing of Geirskogul to a 60 second button, but now I know not to bother at all. It already feels terrible to play at level 90, with practically nothing going on in the burst. Get it together, revert this change, and please actually think before making a decision like this next time.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Lower level dragoon is a separate issue and has nothing to do with high level dragoon.

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Good to know you realize your own opinion is irrelevant Dragoon Lv 92.

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

Life Surge provides at least a little bit of (quite situational) decision making, so I wouldn't want it to be gone. But if it is either LS or Nastrond and there's no way to keep them as in pre-7.1, then getting rid of LS is a better option.

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They should just rework Life Surge into a weaponskill with charges with a similar functionality. That way, we keep some decision making and free some weave slots. I still want more oGCDs though.

Mirage Dive should also provide a scale when used.

I just posted in the JP subforum thread providing the following feedback:

- Returning NAS to 3 charges

- Reworking Life Surge into a weaponskill with similar functions and, perhaps, giving it the ability to provide a scale

- Mirage Dive should give a scale when used

- Exploring a more unique way of ranged uptime tools by making our weaponskills have 5-6 yalms either permanently or temporarily through a buff.

- Since one of the core features of DRG are its oGCDs, not to reduce them anymore and instead to actually increase them

Feel free to like it there, too, if you agree.

Just adding my voice to this. I've played DRG as my main since Stormblood, but I hated the 7.0 changes so much I dropped the class. Gutting it even further breaks my heart. I hate that it feels like melee classes are being smoothed down to be as palatable as possible to people who don't play them; I felt that there used to be a scale of "intensity" between the melee classes that's just being lost more and more as time goes on. I played melee because I loved the challenge of managing my rotation against the fights. I barely feel that joy anymore with melee classes, and definitely not in DRG's current state :(