A player struggling and getting a grey parse because he is not a good player is ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
A player getting grey parse because chill dude its just a game I'm having fun just pressing Jolt and why are you complaining boss died lol is not.
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02-01-2020, 08:26 PMhasana
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02-01-2020, 08:30 PMtestname
Coming to Savage, and Extreme with minimum ilvl, at very first day, not knowing Your job rotation, not having food and melds, - doing less damage than healers
= "You don't pay my sub" =
= "I play as I want" =
Either You don't pay for my sub, and I want to clear content
If You are coming to sing to party, and You are just Deaf not knowing what C#, E, A, - do me a favor and don't come at all, coz whole Tune will be corrupted -
02-01-2020, 09:02 PMAngeliouxReinThis reminds me of games like Dragon Nest that had a rating system for nest and dungeons. Each time you completed a dungeon/nest the game would rate your overall performance and give a boost in rewards. I think, however, you could see other people’s ratings as well. Can’t remember entirely but the rating system was like a personal motivator to do better. Which was needed because content in that game gradually got harder the higher level you went.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Which is what I thought this game would do... but I never knew the crowd of easy-as-possible folk would somehow be able to control the overall difficulty of an entire game. It just weird to me, honestly. -
02-01-2020, 09:19 PMYeshesInfinite progress against an unwinnable goal = MMO game foundation #1 (Economics calls this the "Red Queen" dilemma.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi
Behavioral conditioning to favor theorycrafting and completionism as a means to drive subscriptions (i.e., Status = Time, Reputation = Completion %, etc)
The singular plaint over time being that new players get an easier time of it; accurate, and as predictable as the sunrise. The only way to continue acquisition of players is to expand access to content, lower requirements for completion, and essentially sacrifice veteran "pride" to effectively level the playing field to the point that everyone is as close to "the end" of the game as possible (i.e., as far from it as the design can push or gate them).
That includes simplifying and/or bridging previously gated content when required (context: to support new player acquisition).
Players arrive with the assumptions that their respective history of experience in playing games have given them. Game developers and publishers are actually very good at using new player apathy to debride and whittle away at veteran pride (basically the focus of this OP's complaint).
Personally, I take outbursts like this as par for a very normal and historically demonstrable course.
I love mmo games but I am a poor player due to physical limitations so I only go on the challenging stuff if/when I know I'm with people who understand that we can't all be reflex perfect raid machines.
Or people who understand that people are more important than any of these infinitely regenerated pixels that we're playing with.... complaining about "what is" takes time away from enjoyment regardless... a choice, but not the one I would normally select for myself.
There is another lesson here - rushing to content (and thus content exhaustion) is a significant part of your current experience causes - personally, I play one to two expansions behind current precisely because I game on my terms, for my enjoyment, and if there isn't a reasonable expectation of being able to enjoy the full story and a sense of completion, I don't buy it.
TL;DR - MMO games ask you to accept their definitions for success because it puts you on their revenue treadmill. That doesn't mean you have to stay on them, but if you do, you really need to understand you're ASKING for this treatment. -
02-01-2020, 09:22 PMVulcann
If you don't want to worry about what a random player is doing or how they are playing ... then don't group with randoms. find a group that plays how you want them to play.
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02-02-2020, 01:00 AMQT_MelonI think people really REALLY need to understand how FFLogs work before using this as an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
This is exactly why I feel it's more of a community problem than Devs
People who don't understand how FFLogs work using the worst example and understanding of it.
Then we already had someone do the very much OVERUSED and just getting old "You don't pay my sub" when there's really BARELY anyone who says that at all. -
02-02-2020, 01:42 AMEtherRose
The only problem i have with people are those who don't bother to watch video guides before attempting a raid/ etc. I understand that you rather "Experience" the run blind but you're wasting other peoples time and being a nuisance when you die constantly to the same thing every time and refuse to watch a simple 5 min video guide and get all defensive when asked.
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02-02-2020, 02:22 AMiGyroIf they're attempting Savage blind this late in the tier, then they need to state it in the Party Finder. I don't have problem with people learning the fight organically, but I understand your argument entirely if they jump into a Duty Completion party and have no clue. (I've seen instances of this happening and I ask them to either make a PF or look at a guide before attempting the content again.)Quote:
Originally Posted by EtherRose
First time clear of grey parses don't matter, because your first run isn't going to be perfect. However, if you're consistently doing grey even after the gear boost, then you're part of the problem than the solution. (Your post alone is a strong red flag.) As a raid leader, that tells me you're not willing to improve your play style or bother with min-maxing your rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
If you spend time maximizing effort into the fight, you'll be surprised when you're killing the boss one or two minutes faster than before.
(Ex. My group can easily kill E2 Savage before Quietus compared to our first clear being at enrage.) -
02-02-2020, 02:59 AMQT_Melon
Reading people talk about color parses and STILL not understanding how FFLogs works is EXTREMELY disheartening.
It's not just about color but MULTITUDES of context and what each job could do. Then the time frame changes the percentile. Basically the parses uploaded early on was set by a small sample. The players who posted even said so. Then it's also affected by party contribution and makeup. On top of that a death affects the parse. If a player dies because someone else fails the mechanic it affects their output.
The data is only "Good" for a limited time frame as a measurement DUE to the fact that once the top players have cleared and set in the data, they also will be geared up and look for ways to get the highest parse to upload.
A GOOD raid leader takes in a multitude of factors, not just "the color of the parse" and if they have "better gear" They look to see where their players should be in terms or ranking better within their own party composition. Is this a fight where a monk may not perform as well due to certain mechanics? Is this strategy working out well? Is there a latency issue with a particular instance that is affecting the player?
Now using the analysis data is better (but it seems most people don't do that - and seeing the responses in this thread...) you can see if you're messing up on a part of your rotation, if something is clipping- which people don't understand this concept well. The problem is, that it takes a longer time and more thought to process "for a video game" and people just go to the color of a parse from other uploads.
That said, it's a great tool to help improve your DPS and learn where you can correct your mistakes. If it helps you improve it's great that's what it's for. Mediocrity is just also just looking at one "standard" or set of data and using that as a basis. Because you didn't bother to understand what those tools were for. - and that mediocrity is DEFINITELY a community problem.
Tl;Dr people not actually understanding the tools they're using for their argument. -
02-02-2020, 04:15 AMNhadaly
All i will add to the thread is this:
Im sick and tired of going into pugs to clear ex/savage content and encountering people who dont give a shit or actively harm their party with their performance.
Or people entering groups that specifically say that they're ahead of them and then when they perform below expectations on the mechanics they're supposed to know they get defensive.
Its why i dont pug anymore, its why i dont bother with randoms and why i always find like-minded statics, i got sick and tired of the "me underperforming is fine, grey is fine because you dont pay muh sub" of the toxic casual community and the above.
To all people who dont want players who dont give a damn in ex/savage: Find an FC and/or a static and progress with them, your life will change, ranting about it on the forums doesnt change anything sadly. -
02-02-2020, 04:48 AMxxvaynxxWhy not though? its dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by hasana
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02-02-2020, 05:07 AMValicTHIS. I love how people bring parse into it thinking it's the end all be all without this preface.Quote:
Originally Posted by hasana
At this point, I'm ignoring your post after the first line of it acknowledging you're just a troll. Post something worth giving a damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
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02-02-2020, 05:19 AMxxvaynxxBut if you're a raider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
If you have a bunch of grey parses and you tell someone "oh its because I died a lot/healer keeps letting me die!/tank died so I died next!" nobody serious is gonna take their chances with a grey to green parser or even low blue if you have a lot of them.
Mayhaps if you have enough 75% or higher percentile to back up those claims anyway, which most don't with those excuses.
If you know how to do mechs but still doing sub optimal dps, you won't be getting into any good statics. Because by your logic, that's being mediocre/bad! -
02-02-2020, 05:32 AMNedkel
I found it funny that OP do not have any experience with harder content whatsoever in HW or Stormblood yet he easily states something like this without hesitate.
How do you know it is getting easier when you barely scratched content in stormblood OP? This thread is kinda bsQuote:
Content is getting easier, it's a given even when considering the change over these last 2 expansions in how mechanics are done and movement with the new job gauges. Many jobs got hit with a bomb that makes them as simple as the one next to it without even trying. Solo instances/quests that once demanded the player learned their job and how to optimize to succeed now offer not just "easy" when failed... but "VERY EASY". Savage was made "more accessible" despite the content being created for the very purpose of being difficult and providing a genuine challenge to players who seeked more than just the standard MSQ/side content.
Nope its not getting easier to mind you, it stays on similar level with the previous expansion.
Smells like Dunning kruger effect and world of warcraft entitlement, "why should i improve myself when everyone else could".
Do you realize the parses you see on the certain site and numbers presented there are the bracket of all kind of people who played the content in the game? Do you know the parse for specific raids are biased thanks to the premade groups with organised and well trained people with bis gear and bis jobs who are pushing the numbers waaay higher than any pug group could even imagine to have, right? Since they are planning all steps down to single buffs and damage windows, this kind of organisation cannot be never reached by pugs which creates a gap between them and visible in the numbers on that site. Because data has not been separated between pugs and professional static it creates a false image of pugs underperforming so badly.
It all comes down to the data analysis which is made super poorly on the logs website, keep that in mind. -
02-02-2020, 05:48 AMValicUnder what preface do you declare I have no experience with HW or SB content? Where is this assumption's proof? Also what does any of your post have to do with anything going on in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
I am. I agree, but parse is a % of playerbase and this is also under the assumption I'm talking about specifically savage/ex content. This is also the assumption that you're required to have colorful parses to clear content. This is just as incorrect. My whole point in this thread is that in standard content, at this point where we are now able to be level 80, every plyer should know how to do 1. mitigate as a tank. 2. understand aoe heals and regular healing 3. DPS understand a basic 1v1 rotation and an aoe rotation. And 4. General marker understanding such as knowing what a stack marker is and what a "this will hurt anyone near me" marker is. You're going into this thread assuming I'm talking about hardcore content, to which I am not.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
My claim is that SE's presenting the standard to progress normally/casually in this game as very very low. Things that required a player to square up such as the role quest before the ending of ShB MSQ that at least demand the player knows how to move/dodge/stack.... is now capable of being done on "easy" and "very easy". This presents the idea that it is okay to not learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
While I agree with your post entirely, I don't think it's just community driven. I'm a believer that the developers are not encouraging the drive/will to learn in even base content and are allowing less than average effort to be rewardable. -
02-02-2020, 05:51 AMNedkelMagic ;) <10chars>Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
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02-02-2020, 05:57 AMValicAs I thought. You don't know. Or like many of the people who take parsing and fflogs as if it's the bible itself, they assume if there's no record on that site, they haven't done it. Go figure huh? It's almost as if people may have alts they've done it on or perhaps they didn't/don't parse? WHO KNEW RIGHT?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
I find it funny you were ready to jump on your high horse like you found the holy grail of arguments. -
02-02-2020, 06:25 AMxxvaynxxIt says you joined june 2017, the same time as Stormblood. So you have no experience in HW raiding (unless you made a whole different account for some reason) and maybe even SB but you said you have an alt so eh. Can't deny that because I know people that make alts in different data centers to clear ultimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
But anyway your thread said for ANY CONTENT. Not just casual, also having good percentile to clear content isn't required...well at least late game where everybody has their gear but it is required to join a serious group that cares about clearing things efficiently.
Personally I don't care how people play, the casual content is easy enough for people not to try.
But I do think its pretty backwards that you don't like people being mediocre but you'll allow people to be sub optimal as long as they have the basics of the job....actually rather ROLE.
Why take a step when you can run the mile. -
02-02-2020, 06:39 AMMahoukenshiYour player account and forum account are two entire different things. This means that the OP could have played since ARR, HW or whenever and had only decided to make their fourm account in June 2017.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
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02-02-2020, 06:39 AMValicNo, it says this account joined these forums. Again with the assumptions. As for your comment, that is in regards to joining the standards of a hardcore static group. Competency at a level where you're seeking individuals who go above and beyond is a given.. Obviously to be a hardcore raider, it would suggest you know how to do mechanics as well as know your job. As far as pugging, learning, going into the content fresh/new though?... This game isn't helping that learning curve by making things easier. The biggest issue is as exactly you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
"Personally I don't care how people play, the casual content is easy enough for people not to try."
Exactly.
Anything beyond that that, you're just misinterpreting my post. There's a fine line between optimization and at the very least understanding how to play. The latter is being very "hand holdy" with a lot of our content. I'm not going to be the player that demands you do everything perfectly or suffer the penalty, or even demand you HAVE to use every single ability in every fight you do.... Again, I understand hardcore content is one segment of this game, and not everyone's flavor. However, a bare minimum to progress in normal content should set the standard to progress. If a player is starting new, they should be introduced to multiple scenarios that challenge them and have the player understand "oh, I lose if I don't blank". We are severely lacking in that and thus, do we see many players who do less than minimum for their job in even casual content because hey... as you said, it dies/died right? Then who cares? I believe savage/hardcore content should be for those ready for the ultimate challenge to optimize and recognize, practice, train, etc... But casual content. I believe you should still have some form of line that says "you cannot cross this line until you blank successfully" otherwise... everything is a training dummy you just wail on until you get your reward. What did you learn out of the mechanics it provided or the things you had to do with your job? Nothing, because you can plow through it without thinking.
To give you an example. I just did my 50/60/70 roulette, got shallow's compass. We had a GNB, MCH, and a BLM, then me as an AST. The 2nd boss, does an aoe he telegraphs with an orange marker, which every player by now should be able to recognize that means get out of the blast right? This boss drops that marker, then trails several aoe's after following the player he placed that orange marker under. The pattern/idea is that you dodge the first drop, then keep running to avoid continuous hits in succession or you will die. The BLM, being a sprout, does not move out of the orange marker and even stayed for every hit of it somehow. He didn't pop manaward, I tossed him a regen and nothing more. What was the result? He lived, keeps dps'ing, nothing haults him, there's no punishment other than the meme "healers adjust". Imo, being hit by the initial aoe that was marked for a good 5 seconds should hurt to begin with, staying in those hits itself should result in death, causing the player to lose their rotation or at the very least, we have weakness for a hot minute. No though, he can do this and there's no punishment for it other than the healer has to keep him going I guess? There's no dps check to see "hey, is everyone alive? Are they strong enough to take this down?" There's probably no reason they have to move quite frankly because it will carry on without a problem and they will receive their reward as expected.
As for every pull there on? The tank did fine with a regen, never needed anything more. Segments that had 6+ enemies up at once, our BLM and GNB would single target dps instead of aoe.... Imo being swarmed by several monsters at once should require you to kill them at once rather than one by one. This goes by just fine though, as the damage they do is negligible and there's no punishment if they don't aoe it other than maybe just a longer pull time I guess? The challenge or demand in skill? None, just 1-2-3 it and claim the reward after beating the final boss. Meanwhile we had a dungeon in called Temple of Qarn in ARR where if you refuse to dps down those bee's, they one shot. This either required high aoe damage (which not mny jobs posses even at that level) or focused single target priority until you could safely aoe. This is a great mechanic concept because it introduces the idea of priority. Jump to Thordan's battle in HW.... It's a joke. He hits 1% before he even begins "the phase" and every mechanic that happens during the phase is basically immediately shut down. Meanwhile Nabriales in ARR is another good example of trial that requires competence... The orb phase will wipe the party if they refuse to block the orbs from him and the sprite causes slow on players further allowing this. Then to boot, tanks have to take meteors toward the end and dps need to focus on the meteor falling. This introduces urgency and the need to mitigate or at least understand some mechanics. The tank is also required to mitigate or get healed VERY quickly if they don't through triple cast tank buster. I like concepts like this, they shouldn't be nerfed down or need to be easier. We should have solo content that doesn't have the option to be "very easy" or "easy" but instead demands what those instances dish out. That tells the player, "hey, you're this far into the third expansion, I'ma show you that arm's length is super useful and also remember how to do stack markers". Unfortunately, it's only getting marginally easier and less is required as a group to do things like this. Going higher in content should present more of these examples, not less of it. That's why I didn't mind tank busters being introduced in expert dungeons as of late. It demands the tank understands how to pull or how to mitigate, or they wipe, as well as priority. I hope we get more of that and less complaints about it, I also hope it creates the gap in the average individual vs the more advanced individual who has learned their kit. Your reward? Not wiping. Though this is still only seen as a time reward thing and can just as easily be done without much thought process so long as you just go in just pressing 1-2-3 to your leisure with as few enemies or as many as you like.
Having speed shouldn't be the objective. Being able to overcome the challenge presented should be... It's also why I REALLY appreciated The Burn when it was current, especially for the final boss. I would argue that's my favorite dungeon, solely because each boss requires you to learn/recognize a pattern or you will be punished for it. Not too much the first 2 bosses, but the final boss, definitely at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi
This. For the longest time I didn't even know these forums existed and just used reddit instead and even then I wasn't really looking out of game at websites for this game often. -
02-02-2020, 07:08 AMxxvaynxxWhy not prove you cleared it then? To give yourself more credibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
Because nobody clears the final floor and not post. -
02-02-2020, 07:27 AMValicWhat do I show? A mount that's unsyncable to obtain now? Why do I need credibility for something that is covering more than just savage content? Sorry but at this point, you're derailing and we've already discussed that parse isn't the solution here.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
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02-02-2020, 07:50 AMxxvaynxxBecause you talked about the game been too easy for 2 expansion so that includes HW and SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
Name the alt that you cleared with to show that you know how the difficulty decreased since then. -
02-02-2020, 07:58 AMBanriikku
I didnt clear any of the ultimates.
But even i can see that many dutys are getting so easy its ridiculous. There is no challenge or difficulty. Its just "i walk from a to b, having a trash mob wich takes approximately 30 % more time then the trash mobs before. I repeat this until the portal is showing and i can leave. The rewards are not worth getting or just extrem RNG (mounts/minions). I understand that we are community with many diffrent people but all Stormblood dungeons are so easy i dont even know why these dungeons are still in the game.
All dungeons from the old expacs are even easier.
What i see is : you can ignor mechs and stuff - just power through it and ignor whatever design for the dungeon is implemented. I just dont know why i can ignor so much without punishment.
"I cleared Dungeons XXX" - "I play Candycrsuh.. so what?" - i know this is hyperbolic but it feels most of the time like this and i am not a good player but all dutys from before Shadow Bringers are completly trivialized. To be honest i expect that the new MSQ Dungeons will give me my reward. Even when i dont pay attention or dont even try. The rule is dont be AFK and you get your Loot/what ever. It feels like "Hey you did it, you moved your mouse! Here is your reward Warrior of Light." -
02-02-2020, 08:14 AMxxvaynxxWell when SE tries to make a dgn even a tiny bit difficult people can't do it or at least complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banriikku
Remember mist dragon? People were crying for nerfs and that thing wasn't even hard. -
02-02-2020, 08:15 AMValicNo. I did play the content back then though and I'd like to keep my alt away from the gremlins this thread gets tyvm. I'm not claiming they're too easy for 2 expansions. I'm claiming content, ------> IN GENERAL CONTENT <----- is becoming easier. The margin of skill that players are required to learn is decreasing as we dive into each expansion. All around this has been happening, regular content and savage both. No one form is the identifier here. s for my personal thoughts on savage back then to now? As someone said, there's multiple variables that come into play, back in HW we had ranged physicals with cast bars to consider. SB was the introduction to faster paced movement/mechanics thanks to the job gauge. I understand not wanting to replicate difficulty for raids in ARR because their intention at the time was something different than what normal raids are from HW+. However since the introduction of SB is when I felt things were becoming too patterned, it wasn't enough to make me think it's too simple to do but it was something I noticed at the time. Now in ShB, I especially notice is in all of the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
My concern is the drop in requirement as a baseline for players, for ALL content, not specifically hardcore/savage. I want you to understand very clearly now, this thread is not be bashing my hand going "Psh, this is too easy, I demand harder content". This thread is me noticing all of the hoops SE is presenting to players to jump through with the utmost ease without having to learn. It is noticing that aside from level skips that make players jump into the game assuming they can just pick up on the fly without having to read... That solo instances are allowing players to get away with not doing mechanics or understanding basics. That most of the dungeons even in our newest expansion are laughable when you realize you don't have to worry about the consequence of being hit with an aoe. That our final boss of ShB did not present the difficulty that SB's final boss did back in the day when you had to clear it in the MSQ.
That's the point I'm trying to convey here. People's complaints shouldn't be something SE should have to fix, it should be something on their end they have to learn how to overcome. This should be encouraged too, not discouraged. I did find Mist Dragon difficult but not enough to complain or think it needed nerfing. It felt like every time I faced it, that the issue was in my lack of ability to read the aoe faster and dodge the mechanic, avoiding death (which, I was a tank and still am, so me dying usually lead to a wipe if the healer couldn't recover fast enough). I almost feel as though anyone that complained about that boss, wasn't dealt anything that made them have to actually toughen up or adjust for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxvaynxx
Fun thing to do, go into a trust dungeon as a dps... just afk lol. 100% agree with your post here too. There's multiple factors affecting that too, like the % boost in stats for having 1 of each role being a thing. I had thought that only affected current savage content but apparently.... it just generally applies to everything. Even dungeons in older content, making them easier than they already were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banriikku
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02-02-2020, 08:23 AMshao32
well im on the game since ARR beta uninterrupted except for 1 month before HW and i cleared every raid on his time of relevance except A8 (brute justice) for raids problems those days and i can tell the game has become way too easy with time, not only bcs they made fights more easy, simplification of jobs and mechanics remove a lot of the work and focus the players use to have on the past to clear such content and undoubtedly dungeons and 24 man raids has become a joke with no challenge even with lower ILVL and the only challenge remains on ultimate extra concentrate there while the rest of the game has just become more and more braindead.
I specially notice this bcs i love combat content and love to do it but this expansion is just so unninteresting, and my fav jobs become so lame on terms of gameplay this is not fun anymore, when in the past i love doing leveling roulettes and expert to help ppl to complete them and offer advice or leveling other jobs i no longer wanna put a foot on there specially now i have my 2 primary jobs BIS, the quality of the game has greatly gone down on everything except meaby story for my taste since if something is not braind dead it's half baked somehow. -
02-02-2020, 08:24 AMQT_MelonQuote:
Originally Posted by Valic
If that is the case, then why is the clear rate higher in Japan than here in more difficult content?
Because Japan's nature as a community is what gets players to pass. Not the meta, not the job classes. The community.
The subscriber bases is higher however, OUTSIDE of Japan and mostly the US.
The clear rates are lower, sell groups are a thing (and for various reasons left to another topic that's been done to death). It's lot of discussions about the color of the parse, or the "meta"
Does Japan have these discussions? Yes to a degree, and they also have issues with certain content etc.
But their community seems to pass higher content just fine.
The player base however is increasing and as a company they'd be stupid not to cater to the majority of where the money is coming from.
Forcing the content to be more difficult didn't solve the problem back then and isn't solving it now. This is why I stand to say again this is a community issue. They can only police that to a degree. -
02-02-2020, 12:42 PMValicNah I'm ignoring you because you're snarky and wanting to cause drama rather than post something constructive to this thread. Go elsewhere troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsien
Finally someone using logic... You're right but couldn't it still be said that SE should be encouraging behaviors to learn rather than encouraging not having to try by making things like hall of novice mandatory and providing content that demands use of specific skills from your job? And ya know... not offering not just "easy" for solo instances, but "VERY easy" as well?...Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
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02-03-2020, 04:07 AMQT_MelonHall of Novice only goes so far and some of it is actually quite weird vs actual experience on how gameplay with OTHER ACTUAL LIVING PEOPLE is. Not to mention why does it matter in an MMO that a SOLO instance is easier? It doesn't affect me in a group. That instance doesn't necessarily teach people how to work with each other, and many of its mechanics can be found in other places anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
The whole reason that some of this content (because definitely not all of it) has been "dumbed down" is the fact it's still a COMMUNITY issue. Too many negative Nancys like yourself are actually discouraging players to want to interact with one another. So instead of getting the guidance they should from other community members, people go back to their old "solo play" feeling of a Final Fantasy game.
People hanging on to a few people who give them some kind of reaction they didn't want, overlook the times when giving constructive feedback actually helped players. This is a cultural problem because Japan (it still can be rude) has a more focused kind of speech that is meant not to offend and focuses more on politeness. The US, let's face it are generally rude. That's not to say it's intentional, just that the wide berth of varying cultures in the US, is why such conflicts happen. However, one of the most baffling aspects of disagreements, is now generally blown off as "Well people are too sensitive these days" "babies" instead of an equal retrospect in "how can I communicate this better". Which means both sides have dug their trenches and want to lie in it.
As a friend who has actually been on the Japanese servers, clear times for stuff is generally 13 minutes - specially those 24 man dungeons before he transferred to a US server. (He was an old veteran FFXI player so playing with Japanese players was just to be expected). If someone was bad they were quietly dismissed and people moved on. They did at least give an attempt to offer improvement in tips in the least offensive way possible. They didn't spend much time on making large threads about Bad DF players, and being loud obnoxious and overly "meme" about things. Still happens but to a lesser degree. They actually did the mechanics and don't really go about making things be done one way or "meta".
Come here, you can be in a 24 man for a long period of time due to wipes, and general bickering. Some guy has to have the excuse of their goldfish on fire and so forth. People looking for the edgiest meme worthy way to give advice to other players. If you dare say anything about asking a player to be more considerate about how they give out information, it's "Destroying their fun".
I still enjoy the days, where you can form a learning party when content is past the "two week tryhard" level and people not quit after 2 pulls and having to reform the party again and again. I still was happy to actually detail advice despite it being somewhat of a pain (even with a keyboard) to explain to new people what went wrong, and how to fix it. Giving small tips here and there for each job that entered. Then clearing content after a full DF run and a half. Everyone went out happy, thanked each other for the experience and gave the same kind of advice later to other fellow adventurers.
Now I just mostly see (and I'm guilty of it too). "I don't want to play with randoms" (because we assume them to be the most negative). The longer you play, the more jaded one becomes.
The fact of the matter, is we (the community) lowered the bar, we made out that many players are bad. We as a community didn't bother to find ways to improve the encouragement and how to communicate both ways. We lowered the bar of expectations. It's only reasonable the devs followed suit.
That hard lesson of Gordias still probably resonates with them as a standpoint on further actions in how to develop this game and keep it financially viable, when many other MMOs come and gone.
But yet, there's still quite a bit of challenging content in this game, and game I can just go in and play with other players to enjoy that isn't as challenging. I guess in this aspect I can thank you for the thread, because I see how just overly focusing on the game in a negative way had severely impacted my enjoyment of it, till I remembered how many people have come and gone in this community I greatly enjoyed playing with and more come in as we speak and rekindle the magic I found in playing this game early on. -
02-04-2020, 02:39 AMValicIt matters because it teaches the bare minimum of optimization. In most group instances, a ninja could just spam the first GCD of their combo the whole time and hey, it works because it doesn't matter right? Meanwhile a solo instance demands you have the damage at times. It demands you know how to dps well enough, maybe not perfectionist/elitist quality parse checking annoyance style dps.... But at lest to do more than the minimum. Solo instances as I've said, pave the road for what's ahead. You get on a bicycle with training wheels when you start, but you never use training wheels again... However you did learn that brakes and pedals are the thing you need to know how to use. Same thing in a solo instance. You're not with a bunch of setup AI, but you're being shown how to use your job effectively and understand some simple mechanic ideas like aoes.Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
I'm not being a negative nancy lol. I'm simply not encouraging dumbing down the game, and I repeat... I have not once anywhere declares I'm not willing to help out or teach another player who is willing to learn. I taught Zurvan EX when it was current content even after I got the bird, I teach current savages these days, I remind tanks what mitigation is if I'm healing and notice it's a lil unstable. I don't nit pick mind you, I either wait until it is actually a noticeable issue (may cause a wipe) or they ask.
I wont get into that dispute over that other thread saying why the JP community is better than the US one, that's just rubbish for the most part.
I'm also not making a thread on "bad DF players" either if that's the implication here. I'm simply saying that SE should go more out of their way to encourage improving outside of relying on other players (whether it's being carried or having to be told at a later level how to do something they should've learned at level 10). I say this not to discourage players from asking for help when needed, but rather... that there should be some degree of self motivation or self discipline included in the game that teaches a player without their hand being held. Worst case scenario should end up being "why can't I beat this solo instance? I'm playing X job and I'm doing X" with replies of "Do you use X often enough? There's a portion where X needs this done and is actually really useful in group content". Rather than the result being to say screw it and wait until you can be carried or whine about content being too difficult and in need of a nerf.
I agree on wishing players had more patience to stay beyond the 1-2 wipes when in a learning party that was beyond those first couple weeks of blind runs and etc. Sometimes I find a stable group, sometimes I don't. In the end, most players who end up leaving out of their frustration and inability to perform is dependent on the factor that they never learned some basics. Either through fault of their own of level skipping, not reading, content not demanding increased performance, or they were simply told what to do rather than learning why to do it. I still try to help where I can these days in PF and in DF alike, but if the person is unwilling to learn through help of another player, then at that point it's either up to the game to make them see what they can improve... Or they just simply won't.
I still say it's not just the community but rather a mixed hand from the community and devs both. We can all do better, I agree... But at the same time, SE has to not cave in on ideas that support making things redundant. It'll only hurt if more is made easier to do. My focus isn't negative, but rather preventative. I think something should be done sooner rather than later to preserve the game's entirety. Not just a focus on what happens at end game, but solo instances, regular trials, regular dungeons, EX's, all of it. I would prefer more than 10% of the content to give people the feeling of a job well done, well coordinated, that was enjoyable to boot.
An example I want to give is the final boss of "Malikah's Well". The boss isn't necessarily difficulty but does require the players of the group to step up to a degree. The vulnerabilities can stack for a longer period of time, making you more prone to damage and possibly wiping if you're not careful or learn the pattern in which to dodge/move. The boss teaches you each set of mechanics one by one then puts them together like a lot of our content does. It's not so simple as to just burn it down before these mechanics happen either, so there's none of that "we can just skip it" mentality that many mmo's put as a mentality from their community. In my experiences with this boss, I either see wipes, or multiple deaths that prevent the player from actively playing(you can't enjoy your job if you're dead right? That's one consequence at least I can see out of it). However, none of them have been negative... Rather if we wipe, the party or myself will offer advice in how to go about the boss to defeat it. By the end of the dungeon, they're doing as you said, thanking each other for the help, GG's, and saying how it was fun but challenging. It wasn't just another boss to get through the day and sigh as you repeat your base GCD standing in place without feeling like having to move. It wasn't just more of the same "let's move on already" type of content that encourages a player to hit the exit asap because they just wanted their roulette done and over with. It felt enjoyable to learn and clear together, to cooperate and understand so that we could overcome something. I want more content to feel like that, rather than a burden or a carry.
However, just off that we assume I'm referring to a DF group right? Well Susano EX was a nice change to that back in the day. I remember doing him pretty late in SB, not enough to have new gear above his weapon ilvl or to be able to cheese anything... But I definitely wasn't around for the first couple weeks of his EX. Parties were wiping and discussing how mechanics had to be done, they would communicate who had what responsibilities when they showed up and what the enrage looked like if we didn't perform those mechanics depending on our role. I didn't find many toxic parties doing it or anyone who was an ass about how to do the mechanics. I did however find many players baffled at the idea of having to move with a stack marker or just refusing to mitigate damage. Majority of the time though was refusal of doing a mechanic even when told how to do it that got us wiped (such as taking the purple marker you can move with, to the other side of the platform). My point here? The content was enjoyable and demanded players perform at least to a high enough level to clear it. It wasn't ridiculously absurd in difficulty but it wasn't a cake walk either. If there was something wrong, it was something the player had to learn from to continue. I feel the game should support this so a player understands "if I don't act now because of this, we all fail" rather than "eh, they'll be fine if this happens" passivity. -
02-04-2020, 02:45 AMBroFistscould u pls stop necroing old threads thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
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02-04-2020, 02:45 AMValicCheck the date. Literally made just a couple days ago. This isn't weeks/months old and I'm replying to a comment made literally yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroFists
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02-04-2020, 02:49 AMMahrzeQuote:
Originally Posted by BroFists
Oh the irony -
02-04-2020, 06:21 AMQT_Melon
No it does not teach you much in the solo instance. Just that one situational time it MAY have mattered. Yeah that Warden's Paeon was soooooo useful back at the time of release when the stupid thing had a abysmal cast time and you had to know which skill it could help cleanse, then later down the line a bard was Pacify cleanser for WAR. That my friend was dumb.
The healing and tank quests were also useless for solo instances.
You only pointed out some minor DPS thing forgetting how much time was just wasted on those solo instances where at least a guild hest did 10 times better.
You get better at the game with experience and peers. If you aren't gonna bother being a peer and making a thread blaming the devs. You ARE the problem. -
02-04-2020, 07:00 AMAngelCheese77
Good or bad I just want people to own up to their mistakes and not blame other people
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02-04-2020, 07:07 AMValicThe problem is, it SHOULD teach you plenty in a solo instance. The tank instances at the time did require you to mitigate and at least do stack mechanics, but now they're a joke. Guildhests aren't really required at all either and are a joke... majority of them you can burn down without even knowing what the mechanic was.Quote:
Originally Posted by QT_Melon
You get better at the game when the game challenges you to get better. If it's not, you don't need to get better because what you do is passing off as fine. I'm not blaming anyone here, I'm saying the game needs to encourage getting better. Not staying below average or minimum requirement to be passable. Being a peer only does so much, there's plenty of players who make several guides teaching the most common practices like not to stay on a mount when being attacked in pvp (because it puts slow on the person). You could have youtube flooded with videos like this, but a player can completely ignore all of that regardless so long as the game doesn't urge them to see why it's important to learn why or why not they should do something.
It's why I like Wanderer's Palace HM. Doom is inflicted on a random player with the only indication on how it's cleansed is the dialogue from the boss. The dps may be at absolute perfect health and not need healing, but if a healer isn't paying attention, that doom will kill them unless they heal them regardless. Same if it's applied to the healer themselves, if they die... the party wipes and the learning begins. They wouldn't/shouldn't be able to pass if doom isn't cleansed through enough healing. If they just ignore it every pull, they don't clear the boss because they would wipe. Though this also assumes it will always at least go on the healer, if it goes on the dps only and they just ress them every time... I'm sure they'll get away with not having to learn the mechanic. -
02-04-2020, 07:37 AMZazayIt will be easier than Orbonne? ... That makes me sad now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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02-04-2020, 08:01 AMVulcannwell it has to be YOUR fault ... because if its not your fault, then it is my fault and i don't like that!Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelCheese77
:P -
02-04-2020, 08:05 AMPaladinleeds
Honestly, I think baseline content including solo duties as part of a group need to be made harder across the board. However, for those that only want the single player experience, bring the trusts out to the entire game (including old content and trials). That way people who only want the story and don't care for high performance have options. Perhaps make the trust versions a bit easier so they can be cheesed for those who don't care. But make mechanics hurt more and be more punishing when in groups.
One thing that I loved in Rath Ex (before it became unsyncable... WHY SE WHY!?) was you had 3 lives across the group. If your group had a collective total of 3 deaths, it was a wipe. Stuff like that I think would make quite a bit of difference in giving the content a bit more bite to it, so people can't just cheese through it.
My only issue with this is I have issues digesting all the information from the guide. I need a segment, then practice it, then another segment. Groups however expect you to have fully digested the guide from my understanding. It's the reason I make my own groups saying guide not required (and ironically still get told to watch a guide when my PF openly states guide not required. It's happened 2-3 times that I can remember.) I state guide not required because in extreme/savage content, the amount of information they convey to you in that guide is overwhelming, and causes information overload for me causing me to perform poorer than just going in blind. I've tested it out before as well. I get I'm a minority there but that's how it is for me, and hence I make my own PFs so people know what they're getting into. And sensory/information overload is a VERY real thing for people with autism (not all, but from my experiences it's a general trend), and it frankly sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by EtherRose
EDIT: And since I know someone is going to say "Well you haven't done Savage"... my reasoning for wanting more baseline difficulty is because the game doesn't really do a good job of a difficulty curve. If there's a higher baseline difficulty, then other things can be brought up in accordance to create a tighter and better difficulty curve going from MSQ -> Normal raids (I guess) -> 24 man raids -> Extreme trials -> Savage -> Ultimate. Right now there seems to be some big jumps in difficulty (I cannot speak for Savage -> Ultimate though, never tried an Ultimate, but I did partially complete Savage Deltascape and Sigmascape when they were current, albeit with a static). I think low baseline difficulty creates an issue there as it's harder to create a smooth difficulty curve with the available content we get.