How do we feel about tank damage right now?

It would not surprise me to find out that the board shows tank lower because of the way the logs work now, dps contribution from buffs now go to the dps providing it and not the tank, so if they where getting a 5% damage boost from buffs it doesn't show up as the tanks rdps and gets added to the dps and healer jobs that are providing the buffs.

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Originally Posted by Raimy

It would not surprise me to find out that the board shows tank lower because of the way the logs work now, dps contribution from buffs now go to the dps providing it and not the tank, so if they where getting a 5% damage boost from buffs it doesn't show up as the tanks rdps and gets added to the dps and healer jobs that are providing the buffs.

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Funny how changing a display metric suddenly made a job less fun.

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Originally Posted by Raimy

It would not surprise me to find out that the board shows tank lower because of the way the logs work now, dps contribution from buffs now go to the dps providing it and not the tank, so if they where getting a 5% damage boost from buffs it doesn't show up as the tanks rdps and gets added to the dps and healer jobs that are providing the buffs.

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The DPS increase when comparing rDPS to aDPS is in the realm of ~3-6% for tanks, so that doesn't quite account for the difference.

https://i.imgur.com/G0z3lSk.png

https://i.imgur.com/J9893V8.png

https://i.imgur.com/mebITGr.png

https://i.imgur.com/7Soocm5.png

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Why would you give that to DPS and not the tanks?

Enemy vulnerabilities are traditionally the realm of tanks because it gives them meaningful damage contribution to parties without letting them be nearly invincible by comparison along with competitive damage?

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Because perhaps DPS can for once have some modicum of responsibility thrusted onto them for once.

I'm sure people enjoy doing piddling contribution whilst having all forced yes/no mechanics thrusted upon them. Putting the rDPS buffs/mechanics on tanks doesn't change their agency, it makes them even more arbitrarily weighted to *allow* other roles to excel and make impact. Just like how tank mechanics are pass or fail with no real tangible impact, DPS can be trusted to have such responsibilities given to them then all players are on equal grounds of equal contribution to which the better player would actually feel like they are making a significant difference with their skill.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Because perhaps DPS can for once have some modicum of responsibility thrusted onto them for once.

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Literally every raid has divided mechanic responsibility among the DPS.

-And they also bring the boosts in this game-

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Literally every raid has divided mechanic responsibility among the DPS.

-And they also bring the boosts in this game-

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Not content specific mechanic but role mechanic much like how tanks deal with mitigation, positioning and "enmity". Something like striking a certain part of a boss to open more weaknesses.

They bring boosts, but I'm talking about more boosts overall as a role specific mechanic for a theoretical world where tank damage is the same as DPS damage.

A tank would be doing 10k. A DPS would do 10k. The DPS would bring mechanics that boost it further to 15k for both.

This way a tank player would be able to contribute as much impact to victory as a DPS whilst doing tank mechanics and a DPS would do the same whilst doing theoretical DPS role mechanics.

Versus now where its just DPS do 15k. Tanks do 9k(60% contribution of DPS). Aka the point of the thread.

Literally the only people who care about this shit are the ones who believe DPS is the only metric of their value as a player.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Versus now where its just DPS do 15k. Tanks do 9k(60% contribution of DPS). Aka the point of the thread.

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Giving the DPS the boosts doesn't change the contribution.

The tank is still contributing "10k".

But the DPS is now contributing "20k".

AKA - The Tank is now dealing 50% of the DPS, so now it's in a worse position.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Literally the only people who care about this shit are the ones who believe DPS is the only metric of their value as a player.

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Either give tanks mechanics that have valuable impact to the victory of the fight or show me a savage tier where the players did no damage and healed/mitigated their way to victory.

Healing and mitigating is but means to allow damage. And frankly a monkey can press a cooldown every 90 seconds to "do their job".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Giving the DPS the boosts doesn't change the contribution.

The tank is still contributing "10k".

But the DPS is now contributing "20k".

AKA - The Tank is now dealing 50% of the DPS, so now it's in a worse position.

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The point is that the base for both is "10k" and the tank is using the boost to make that 5k. Versus now where the base damage is 15k for DPS and 9k for tank with virtually no interaction with the two.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Literally the only people who care about this shit are the ones who believe DPS is the only metric of their value as a player.

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That's a load of shit, and you know it.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

The point is that the base for both is "10k" and the tank is using the boost to make that 5k. Versus now where the base damage is 15k for DPS and 9k for tank with virtually no interaction with the two.

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Giving it to the DPS doesn't make the tank better, it makes the tank worse.

Giving it to the -tank- makes the -tank better-, and still satisfies the two interacting with each other, even though the entire party already does when utilizing any number of strats that maximize uptime.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

That's a load of shit, and you know it.

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Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage." Which completely ignores the fact that, sans tanks who perform the mechanics correctly, the raids would not be possible. Given that all current end-game content has been cleared since the day it came out, it's obvious that the classes as they are now are quite capable of performing to the necessary standards to beat said raids. Hence, any complaint about "dps" for a healer or a tank - especially ones that involve using such clearly padded numbers as the ones we've seen in this thread - are simply people bitching that they want more damage for the sake of having bigger e-peen numbers of FFlogs. Once again reinforcing the wisdom of SE when they say they will never add an official dps meter into the game.

Tank damage is fine. Tank mitigation is fine. Tank balance is fine. It's more than fine. It's the best it's been EVER. No changes are needed outside of minor tweaks to potencies and maybe duration of certain buffs. We certainly don't need to go about making tank damage on par with dps, regardless of whether that comes in the form of personal damage or raid utility.

Why do we even care if its enough to fulfill all dps requirements squarely set on tanks (in a leisurely manner)? Aside from e-points for big log numbers of course.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage." Which completely ignores the fact that, sans tanks who perform the mechanics correctly, the raids would not be possible. Given that all current end-game content has been cleared since the day it came out, it's obvious that the classes as they are now are quite capable of performing to the necessary standards to beat said raids. Hence, any complaint about "dps" for a healer or a tank - especially ones that involve using such clearly padded numbers as the ones we've seen in this thread - are simply people bitching that they want more damage for the sake of having bigger e-peen numbers of FFlogs. Once again reinforcing the wisdom of SE when they say they will never add an official dps meter into the game.

Tank damage is fine. Tank mitigation is fine. Tank balance is fine. It's more than fine. It's the best it's been EVER. No changes are needed outside of minor tweaks to potencies and maybe duration of certain buffs. We certainly don't need to go about making tank damage on par with dps, regardless of whether that comes in the form of personal damage or raid utility.

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The raids would not be possible either with *gasp* DAMAGE. Any tank worth their salt can tell you that the tank mechanics are shallow and have no degree of impact beyond Pass/Fail. Even in terms of fight specific mechanics, tanks deal with the least, especially now that bosses just auto position themselves or don't move at all. That is the issue. A tank player does not make a run better/faster because mitigation/healing has a cap on usefulness. That is why tanks disregarded their tank stance or vitality accessories for more damage. Because damage matters more

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#metric=rdps&dataset=95&class=Non-Healers&aggregate=amount&boss=66
TIL that pulling statistics from a site that aggregates a ton of data is "padded numbers" /s

Tanks are fine within their role. Tanks are not impactful in the grand scheme of the game.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage."

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No, that's your overly narrow interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Quor

simply people bitching

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I only see a select few bitching in this thread. :v

If you don't care about your dps thats fair and all, but why would you jump at ppl that are interested in having a balance between ALL jobs and who have fun competing against every player, not just of their own role? Just bc some have different ways of enjoying the game doesn't give you the right to talk down on anyone.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage."

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At the end of the day there is only so much you can mitigate and heal. So obv everything boils down to: more dps so the boss dies faster, or?



And where exactly did anyone say to make tanks do equal damage than dps? :confused: The main complaint was they lost relative damage compared to SB and are below whm? Or did I miss something?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

The raids would not be possible either with *gasp* DAMAGE. Any tank worth their salt can tell you that the tank mechanics are shallow and have no degree of impact beyond Pass/Fail. Even in terms of fight specific mechanics, tanks deal with the least, especially now that bosses just auto position themselves or don't move at all. That is the issue. A tank player does not make a run better/faster because mitigation/healing has a cap on usefulness. That is why tanks disregarded their tank stance or vitality accessories for more damage. Because damage matters more

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=66
TIL that pulling statistics from a site that aggregates a ton of data is "padded numbers" /s

Tanks are fine within their role. Tanks are not impactful in the grand scheme of the game.

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Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

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Damage does matter.
Take away tanks damage and see what will happen, barely anyone will want to play the class. Dealing big damage is fun and its important, since SE want it play safe and by design makes it the most important game aspect...
If you see yourself trying your best and sit at the bottom of damage chart no matter what you did, i am more than sure you would not be happy to play job you play. Welcome to the warriors world.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I only see a select few bitching in this thread. :v

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Can it with the thinly veiled insults. If you want to ignore all the posts made per week about tank dps, then sure, go for it.

Quote:

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If you don't care about your dps thats fair and all, but why would you jump at ppl that are interested in having a balance between ALL jobs and who have fun competing against every player, not just of their own role? Just bc some have different ways of enjoying the game doesn't give you the right to talk down on anyone.

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Don't put words into my mouth. The people in this thread advocating for increased tank dps don't give a damn about balance, because the tanks as they are right now are the most balanced they have ever been. Comparing cross role "balance" is a ridiculous idea, and shouldn't even be considered as an idea, yet here we have a number of people, including OP, talking about the damage of healers and dps compared to tanks and finding tanks wanting.

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At the end of the day there is only so much you can mitigate and heal. So obv everything boils down to: more dps so the boss dies faster, or?

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Heal and mitigation checks exist in this game as well. Failing them causes a wipe more often than not, either immediately or later on down the line due to attrition. More dps makes it so the boss dies faster, yes, and a wiped raid group has 0 dps.

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And where exactly did anyone say to make tanks do equal damage than dps? :confused: The main complaint was they lost relative damage compared to SB and are below whm? Or did I miss something?

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FallenWings, post 46 of this very thread, for one. So you did miss something.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

No, that's your overly narrow interpretation.

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I've read through this entire thread, watching Kabooa (and others) explain why their arguments are, in a word, bullshit, yet the same responses just keep coming, all some variation of "gib dmg 2 tank plz." Buzz words like aDPS and rDPS are thrown around, comparisons are made, and counter arguments are ignored, all in the goal of getting bigger numbers for the sake of having bigger numbers.

Look, here are the facts; SE has designed a 2/2/4 baseline group composition for tanks/healers/dps and all fights are designed in such a way that by playing your class correctly at minimum ilvl you should be able to beat the final enrage assuming you successfully did all the mechanics in the fight. Anything beyond that is simply e-peen flexing. All fights in the current end-game were beaten by 2/2/4 comps of various types within the first 24 hours of their release. Asking for more dps on a tank, either via personal means or raid utility means, is asking too much. Tanks have the dps they need in order to beat a fight. Wanting more just means wanting to carry people in your group, and as Samsta notes:

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Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

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Which sums it up nicely.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Damage does matter.
Take away tanks damage and see what will happen, barely anyone will want to play the class. Dealing big damage is fun and its important, since SE want it play safe and by design makes it the most important game aspect...
If you see yourself trying your best and sit at the bottom of damage chart no matter what you did, i am more than sure you would not be happy to play job you play. Welcome to the warriors world.

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This is an intentional misinterpretation of what Samsta is saying.

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Originally Posted by Quor

This is an intentional misinterpretation of what Samsta is saying.

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Sure but my point still stands its ground.
If you create a savage raid where tanks supposed to do 5% of total dps and you change tanks in such way there will be no one to play them.
Seeing you as a tank on the bottom of the chart 99% of times is discouraging and evidence of some really poor design choices.
Tanks in early mmorpg times were the least damage dealing classes and also super boring, and it caused playerbase to barely ever play any of tanks. It was so bad in vanilla wow that tanks were being paid to join party for dungeons.
Do we really want those times to come back to us? I dont think so.
Right now playing a tank in ffxiv is 80% doing damage and 20% the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Damage does matter.
Take away tanks damage and see what will happen, barely anyone will want to play the class. Dealing big damage is fun and its important, since SE want it play safe and by design makes it the most important game aspect...
If you see yourself trying your best and sit at the bottom of damage chart no matter what you did, i am more than sure you would not be happy to play job you play. Welcome to the warriors world.

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So the reason you play the game is so you can see yourself at the top of the dps list? Not to complete the content? Not to have fun trying to optimize damage inside your job? Only the completely meaningful relative damage matters?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

So the reason you play the game is so you can see yourself at the top of the dps list? Not to complete the content? Not to have fun trying to optimize damage inside your job? Only the completely meaningful relative damage matters?

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You doing less damage than everyone else around you makes you want to play classes others play.
You have a class which is dealing less damage, its more boring and simple than dps, does not unfluence the party outcome such as healers do. Whats the point in playing it? It feels like a poor man dps, because besides tanking some dmg here and there you are doing a melee dps job with barebone rotation, with barely any depth at all.
And on top of that you are dealing twice less damage as a dps class does.
Tanks should deal at least 75-80% of dps damage, it does make a difference because in this game you could jump from one to another job in a second and compare.
Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You doing less damage than everyone else around you makes you want to play classes others play.
You have a class which is dealing less damage, its more boring and simple than dps, does not unfluence the party outcome such as healers do. Whats the point in playing it? It feels like a poor man dps, because besides tanking some dmg here and there you are doing a melee dps job with barebone rotation, with barely any depth at all.
And on top of that you are dealing twice less damage as a dps class does.
Tanks should deal at least 75-80% of dps damage, it does make a difference because in this game you could jump from one to another job in a second and compare.
Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

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Maybe dps is for you then if you wanna deal damage? Tanks have plenty of things to worry about in harder content on top of optimizing doing damage, you have to maintain a defensive cooldown rotation, party mitigation and position the boss (in fights where that is possible) and do tank specific mechanics. If that is not enough for you play dps.

I'd be pretty annoyed if I had to maintain a rotation, burst windows and plenty of CDs, and still do less damage than some healy boi spamming one button and using two others once or twice per minute.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Maybe dps is for you then if you wanna deal damage? Tanks have plenty of things to worry about in harder content on top of optimizing doing damage, you have to maintain a defensive cooldown rotation, party mitigation and position the boss (in fights where that is possible) and do tank specific mechanics. If that is not enough for you play dps.

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> Tells people to play another role when their role feels weak.
> Turns around and complains why no one plays Tanks.

The point of the argument for more tank damage is to have meaningful impact. It has been regurgitated over and over that it is not about having damage for damages sake but to have meaningful contribution equal to the DPS role. And that is frankly damage or actual tank mechanics to allow for a tank to truly impact the fight.

There seems to be some misguided notion that improving tank impact would somehow disrupt the balance of the roles. Tanks are not balanced in terms of what they provide. It has been regurgitated over and over that mitigation and healing value ends after a sufficient threshold is passed.

On the other hand the value of DPS only continues to become more and more value after the threshold because it contributes to victory.

A tank players effort translating to only 60% of a DPS player? That doesn't sound good or fun.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

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ALL DAMAGE MATTERS. Whether it comes from a tank or healer, it is damage. Look at all past iterations and discussions about damage coming from tanks or healers. Damage is the largest contributor to winning a fight with infinite value. Health and mitigation do not have any value beyond Pass/Fail. A tank mitigating an attack but surviving with 1 health and a tank mitigating an attack and surviving with 50k health has no impact on the fight. What mattered was that they survived.

The point is not that a boss would have more health. The point is that when a tank player presses a button, it has as much impact as a DPS player who presses a button. That the button press has an equal contribution to winning the fight.

And if we're talking about "quota" then I guess RDM, SMN and the Range classes are currently happy with their smaller "quota" over the other classes.

Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

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its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

so if this is what you think tanks are "a poor man dps" then samsta is right, go be a dps class it will probably make you happier.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

I'd be pretty annoyed if I had to maintain a rotation, burst windows and plenty of CDs, and still do less damage than some healy boi spamming one button and using two others once or twice per minute.

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Would you? I personally respect healers now more than ever, since I dont have the mental fortitude or left-over sanity points to spam (mostly) a single button when I play. /jk

Anyways, that just speaks volumes more about the "complexity" of healer rotation and less about tank dps. I think it was kinda stated by Yoshi and gang sometime around SB launch, that rotational complexity does not scale to damage done when they design things (see SAM and RDM... but really just SAM).

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

stuff

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a tanks effort to keep party members alive doesn't contribute to dps? surviving those tank busters skills so a wipe wont happen isn't contributing?

as you said ALL DAMAGE MATTERS which means all party members damage matters not just tank.
sure that in higher content every person is expected to make certain amount but in the end its about THE ENTIRE PARTY REACHES THAT DAMAGE CHECKPOINT and it doesn't matter how much each contribute to reach it as long as it was reached. just as others said SE is making those dps ceiling based on the roles meaning tanks have their dps queue,healers have theirs ,and dps are the majority but in the end its team effort and it doesn't matter how much each contributed as long as it was done (its not a dps competition).

you said healing and mitigation have no value beyond pass/fail meaning and you don't find it valuable ? does dying because of no healing or mitigating sound that unimportant to you?
death=0 dps, death = party wipe , i sure find it significant enough for any party member and definitely show tank contribution to party and especially party dps.

as for the "quota" of RDM SMN and the range classes, you do realize they are in fact DPS JOBS and its their job doing damage.
they cant tank,they cant heal like healers do meaning they take care of one thing damage to boss.
they don't have a problem with just smaller dps,they have a problem with the DPS GAP BETWEEN THE JOBS IN THEIR ROLE and like i said before that gap is the major issue they have cause it basically lead to exclusion and banning them.
so yea compering them to other dps jobs is reasonable cause all of them are in fact DPS JOBS.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

> Tells people to play another role when their role feels weak.
> Turns around and complains why no one plays Tanks.

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I didn't complain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

The point of the argument for more tank damage is to have meaningful impact. It has been regurgitated over and over that it is not about having damage for damages sake but to have meaningful contribution equal to the DPS role. And that is frankly damage or actual tank mechanics to allow for a tank to truly impact the fight.

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Tanks do have an impact, you have to bring 2 tanks to every current savage fight, because their kits allow them to do things that have to be done (survive enough damage, hold aggro) that no other roles can do, that is part of their impact, the fact that it is different in nature to straight damage is only a problem if you have an obsession for damage numbers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

There seems to be some misguided notion that improving tank impact would somehow disrupt the balance of the roles. Tanks are not balanced in terms of what they provide. It has been regurgitated over and over that mitigation and healing value ends after a sufficient threshold is passed.

On the other hand the value of DPS only continues to become more and more value after the threshold because it contributes to victory.

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Actually, what you are saying is kinda true but mitigation does also have somewhat of a scaling effect in it, since it determines how much the tanks need to be healed so they can survive the next hit, reducing the amount of healing needed to be done, thus probably allowing healers to dps more and heal less. Same with healing, the more your heals heal, less heals you have to dish out, however this isn't as straight of a scale as dps, it's more of a steps kind of scale, where at the next step you need 1 less heal. However, both of these also contribute to victory, what you probably meant is that it contributes to faster victory, and yes, it does, dps can be measured in 0 = not enough dps and then scaling infinitely to faster victory. However, as you will point out you don't care about speed/boss health, so what is the problem here? You don't seem to acknowledge how important the tanks job is for reaching victory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

A tank players effort translating to only 60% of a DPS player? That doesn't sound good or fun.

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Again, if you can only measure "effort" with a dps parser I don't know what to say, why don't you do 6 dps 2 healer parties if tanks don't bring as much, oh right, because tanks have the value of surviving attacks and holding aggro. The effort translates to victory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

ALL DAMAGE MATTERS. Whether it comes from a tank or healer, it is damage. Look at all past iterations and discussions about damage coming from tanks or healers. Damage is the largest contributor to winning a fight with infinite value. Health and mitigation do not have any value beyond Pass/Fail. A tank mitigating an attack but surviving with 1 health and a tank mitigating an attack and surviving with 50k health has no impact on the fight. What mattered was that they survived.

The point is not that a boss would have more health. The point is that when a tank player presses a button, it has as much impact as a DPS player who presses a button. That the button press has an equal contribution to winning the fight.

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Actually, there are 2 contributors to winning a fight 1. staying alive 2. dealing enough dps to win enrage. If you want to measure value per button pressed, when you press that defensive cd that will keep you alive and you would otherwise die, that doesn't have any value to you? Your example is self-defeating btw, the difference there is that if tank survives with 1 health, it follows up with healers throwing all their heals at him, where as if he survives with 50k health much less resources will be spent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

And if we're talking about "quota" then I guess RDM, SMN and the Range classes are currently happy with their smaller "quota" over the other classes.

Oh wait.

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The difference here is that dps actually have to compete versus another, tanks don't have to compete with dps for spots in a party, there is a shared quota for all dps, and some fill that quota better. All you should care about is if you fill that tank quota that devs have taken into consideration, whether it's big or small, and all tanks currently do.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

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There's barely any positionning in a tank's role in this game right now. Bosses just reposition themselves with every mechanic when they're not outright just a giant static hitbox that takes half the arena (Leviathan, Titan Maximum for example, which are half the current raid tier). Aggro has become a complete non-issue and mitigation is just invuln most busters and press CDs on the rest. Protecting party members is just press one button on a 90sec recast when big damage is coming. Nothing feels engaging nor impactful. Everything is scripted and very easy to do. The only thing remaining is damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Would you? I personally respect healers now more than ever, since I dont have the mental fortitude or left-over sanity points to spam (mostly) a single button when I play. /jk

Anyways, that just speaks volumes more about the "complexity" of healer rotation and less about tank dps. I think it was kinda stated by Yoshi and gang sometime around SB launch, that rotational complexity does not scale to damage done when they design things (see SAM and RDM... but really just SAM).

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Pfft, no need to /jk it, I stopped playing a healer a month ago, it's every bit as boring as you described.

And yeah, I get that being a bit more complex doesn't necessarily make you stronger. But if tanks have four times more things to do to deal damage than healers, then they should be above them. I don't see why tanks and healers do about as much damage, despite one role having to put a LOT more thought into it than the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

so if this is what you think tanks are "a poor man dps" then samsta is right, go be a dps class it will probably make you happier.

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You can be the most hardcore lovers of all aspects a la Tank and still come to similar lines of thought as what Nedkel has pointed out, simply due to how few of those tanking aspects exist in XIV anyways. Positioning is basically a non-mechanic. Enmity is a non-mechanic. Active mitigation has been relegated to hitting things nearly on CD with potential memorized delays. Healer-tank-specific interactions are now basically non-mechanics. So on and so forth.

You could maybe have made these points when ARR had just launched and tanking lent itself diversely and had huge potential for growth despite its weaker take on the role compared to many of its competitors (little to no AM outside of CDs, fewer positioning concerns except insofar as aiding melee positionals, etc., etc). Now, though? You'd need to make the point of how you'd actually bring those things into the game before you start calling people dps fanatics for, say, liking to optimize all that XIV tanks really have left to optimize: dps.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You can be the most hardcore lovers of all aspects a la Tank and still come to similar lines of thought as what Nedkel has pointed out, simply due to how few of those tanking aspects exist in XIV anyways. Positioning is basically a non-mechanic. Enmity is a non-mechanic. Active mitigation has been relegated to hitting things nearly on CD with potential memorized delays. Healer-tank-specific interactions are now basically non-mechanics. So on and so forth.

You could maybe have made these points when ARR had just launched and tanking lent itself diversely and had huge potential for growth despite its weaker take on the role compared to many of its competitors (little to no AM outside of CDs, fewer positioning concerns except insofar as aiding melee positionals, etc., etc). Now, though? You'd need to make the point of how you'd actually bring those things into the game before you start calling people dps fanatics for, say, liking to optimize all that XIV tanks really have left to optimize: dps.

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this isn't talking about optimizing their dps as tanks,its literally comparing tanks dps to the dps of the actuall dps classes and wanting to have the same amount as them.
this entire thread isn't how to optimize tank dps or compare one tank dps to another it straight out comparing 2 different role that have 2 different jobs and contributions to parties.
you literally sum up a tank role purely on dps when its simply not true and tank has other responsibilities in parties and ignore those completely.
the agro and positions maybe easy or non mechanic but they are important,they are significant and basically keep everyone alive, you straight out say that have no meaning just pure dps numbers matter when its completely not true and tanks in general have a much more important contribution to a party success then anything which is the party survival.

as i said before if it were between healers and tanks is somewhat reasonable since tanks dps > healers dps is the standard in mmo but comparing between the damage dealer classes and tanks and saying that the tanks, who role specialize in protecting party & taking agro while surviving nukes , not contribute to party only cause their dps numbers doesn't reach the levels of those who sole purpose is dps and the only thing important for party contribution is dps numbers doesn't strike you odd since survival is a basic huge contribution.

so yes when people start comparing dps between roles(not jobs but roles) which have different meaning with different contributions to a party and victory(aka dps & survival contribution), that's when it becomes obsessive.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

There's barely any positionning in a tank's role in this game right now. Bosses just reposition themselves with every mechanic when they're not outright just a giant static hitbox that takes half the arena (Leviathan, Titan Maximum for example, which are half the current raid tier). Aggro has become a complete non-issue and mitigation is just invuln most busters and press CDs on the rest. Protecting party members is just press one button on a 90sec recast when big damage is coming. Nothing feels engaging nor impactful. Everything is scripted and very easy to do. The only thing remaining is damage.

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So now this is about what feels impactful and less about what actually is impactful? You don't think not dying is impactful? The mental gymnastics you guys are willing to make to justify your damage obsession is insane. Positioning is very relevant in 1 and half of the fights and mitigation both party and personal means not dying, how is that not impactful but suddenly bigger number on a parser that is going to be adjusted to bosse's health is?

What would an increase in tank damage hurt though, why are all you people that come rushing into these threads to criticize people for wanting to do a bit more damage so against it? It would change nothing about the current tank gameplay that you claim should be the focus, it would just make tanks have an overall more meaningful contribution to the main goal of the party (and make solo content less painful).

Tanks are the most expendable role, anytime it's mechanically feasible a tank is dropped in favor of an extra dps, this has been true throughout the entire games life. I fail to see why it's such a problem that tank mains would like to have a greater impact on the overall goal of the party instead of just being there to handle a mechanic or two no one else can. No one is asking to do dps level dps, just to be a bit higher. There would be no negative effect for tanks to be dealing more damage relative to the other roles, and all the arguments against it seem to just boil down to "but you are a tank, not dps". So what?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

So now this is about what feels impactful and less about what actually is impactful? You don't think not dying is impactful? The mental gymnastics you guys are willing to make to justify your damage obsession is insane. Positioning is very relevant in 1 and half of the fights and mitigation both party and personal means not dying, how is that not impactful but suddenly bigger number on a parser that is going to be adjusted to bosse's health is?

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Have you tanked 1? 1 is keeping the boss in the center of the map where he repositions to almost every other mechanic. Important nothing, the only fight where positioning is important is 2 where you need to make sure you have room to dodge heads and not go off the map. Titan has 1 mechanic in phase 1 where positioning is somewhat important, entirety of phase 2 there is no positioning, and phase 3 is keep Titan in the middle which is brain dead easy as he doesn't move except for 1 time when the split tank busters come up.

I really think tanks need a little bit more damage. If i go fully geared into Titania EX train as Tank or DPS it will be two different scenarios. One where it's not noticed that my gear is great and one where everyone ask themself why titania is at 40% during add phase even tho we had lots of people dying. I would agree about damage buffs especially to Dark Knight and Warrior. Smaller ones - maybe another single ability.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

So now this is about what feels impactful and less about what actually is impactful?

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It has always been mostly about feeling impactful. Of course, as long as things such as tank busters and forced tank swaps exist, we will be forced to have 1 or 2 tanks in order to clear the content because we're the only jobs with the tools needed to deal with these. But, just like magic TBs are just there to make Dark Mind look good/useful, TBs, mechanics that force tank swaps and such are just there to make having 2 tanks necessary. Delete these and the role becomes completely useless. The only thing that a tank does more than a melee DPS is press defensive CDs at very scripted times in each encounter and voking once/twice in some fights. None of this feels impactful, and they only are because the devs purposely designed these to force tanks into raid groups. On the other hand, our jobs are much easier to play with a lot less complexity and our contribution to damage (the only thing that matters for the group once the minimum mitigation/healing thresholds are met) is very low compared to what it used to be before.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Delete these and the role becomes completely useless..

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How much damage do you lose for a DPS taking 55k autos from Titan and healers being forced to baby sit that?

How much damage do DPS lose when the Boss is ping ponging around between those holding aggro?

How much damage do any of the casters / healers lose when those Autos interrupt their spells?

How much -death- happens when the Tank role mitigations aren't present during the traditional end-boss raid busters?

How many of the -other jobs- would be able to survive a raid buster -and auto attacks happening immediately after-?

Just removing tankbusters doesn't make the role worthless. The amount of damage they mitigate just from auto attacks alone would wipe out a raid without tanks in this "No tank buster" fantasy land.

Not to mention if we had no tankbusters, the auto attacks would likely be ramped up, or supplemented with a few instant-attacks of comparable strength.

I wanted to see how other tank players felt about tank damage and I find it super interesting that a few people somehow felt threatened about the discussion and decided to run in here barking and biting about it. It's good to know that many others feel the same, though. What Freyyy said is right, the role just doesn't feel as impactful. 95% of your active gameplay when tanking is dealing damage, keeping your rotation up. The role already suffers with retention even with a new shiny job.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

this isn't talking about optimizing their dps as tanks,its literally comparing tanks dps to the dps of the actuall dps classes and wanting to have the same amount as them.

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I've refrained from addressing you in particular because you've been wrong from the start and clearly lacked comprehension, which is exhausting to deal with. But since you insist on regurgitating nonsense I'm going to point you to the original post where I state it's my opinion that tanks should do a solid 1k more damage. Do you know where the current damage values of the jobs are? No, you obviously don't. Because 1k more damage for tank jobs will NOT put them at the same damage values as dps. It's still not even close. I encourage you to check the damage values before you post again. I'm sure you won't but just know that you're clowning right now because you're participating in a conversation where you don't know what's going on.

What's more, I didn't even make a direct comparison between my damage on dps to tanks. I compared my damage between playing tanks and when I'm playing SCH in the op. You've either forgotten to read the topic before posting and made wild assumptions or you're trolling in an intentional effort to derail the conversation. Just know that I and others see what you're doing.