Please no more Eureka!

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Have you considered that's because they specifically wanted to push this content that has failed on both of their previous attempts?

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No, because I actually read what they said and that their purpose was to create a content dedicated to the relic, and not put the relic there as an afterthough like so many people claim.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Just because they stopped doing it doesn't necessarily mean that they will never do it again. Just as much as it can mean they will never do it again.

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If I were you, I wouldn't help my hopes high for now, because they said that putting the relic as a side reward for basic content was not very interesting and had reached its limits.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But alas, despite all your claims, Eureka is only worth it because the Relic is exclusive to it...

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As is any content in this game, only worth it because of its reward...What a shock !

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Originally Posted by Kalise

At least, that is what is being suggested by the vehement that you try and defend Relic being a Eureka exclusive and try and find reasons why previous Relic design choices (I.e. Multiple ways to work towards the same goal, be it grinding Tomestones, Crystal Sands or even the Crafted Items in HW's relic that can be obtained via Grand Company Seals these days) cannot function.

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That's the thing, I'm not the one saying past iterations were becoming a problem. Yoshi-P is. And you're still only advocating to put the weapon away from Eureka just because you don't like the content, not because you care about people having option to obtain the gear they like.

This thread is just going in circles for 69 pages. Some people like Eureka, some people hate it. We don't know how many of each there are, and it doesn't matter because the Devs seem dead-set on this being the new template for relics. Those of us who hate Eureka either have to suck it up and do it anyway, or just say goodbye to having relics, or maybe even find another MMO.

Personally, I've chosen to say goodbye to relics. It's unfortunate, but as Lamdafish said a way back (or was it a different Eureka thread, who knows?) To get the Savage weapon, you have to do Savage, and now to get the relic weapon, you have to do whatever horrible nonsense they've cooked up for the relic. I hope they go back to the old way, or at least find a compromise between the old way and the new, but it's doubtful.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

This thread is just going in circles for 69 pages.

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Nice.

10charnyah.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, because I actually read what they said and that their purpose was to create a content dedicated to the relic, and not put the relic there as an afterthough like so many people claim.

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Have you ever considered that maybe they wanted to create content dedicated to the relic so as to be able push this twice failed content by attaching it to some other niche content that already had a following?

Given that not everything that the devs say ends up being congruent with what we actually end up receiving. An example was when they said that BLU was a job designed for solo play and unsuitable for parties and we get a BLU that is literally the most party dependent job in the game.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If I were you, I wouldn't help my hopes high for now, because they said that putting the relic as a side reward for basic content was not very interesting and had reached its limits.

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Which is a shame. Especially since in Eureka the relic was a side-reward for basic content, given it was merely just FATE farming and Light/Logos farming. Just with new janky colour wheel and stuff!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As is any content in this game, only worth it because of its reward...What a shock !

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Yes, but you're making out that only the RELIC is a reward enough to justify Eureka and that no-other reward in the entire game would have the same draw.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's the thing, I'm not the one saying past iterations were becoming a problem. Yoshi-P is. And you're still only advocating to put the weapon away from Eureka just because you don't like the content, not because you care about people having option to obtain the gear they like.

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You're the one currently in this thread defending Relic exclusivity. Yoshi-P is not.

Also, while the basis for my argument stems from me not liking the content, the fact remains that I'm actually pushing for inclusivity.

Unlike you who has already admitted that you only cared about the Relic because it was tied to content you liked. Thus are using that fact to try and keep the Relic exclusive to your preferred content.

I'm trying to get the Relic back to being more widely available, so that not only would it have literally no impact on you whatsoever, as you'd still be able to gain the Relic through your preferred content (In addition I'm also advocating for MORE REWARDS for you to get via your preferred content), but then OTHER people (Yes, myself included), would also be able to gain the Relic through their preferred content.

Which would ultimately mean, fewer Leechers within content due to more people actively choosing to be in the particular content rather than being forced there by Relic grinds (As there are plenty of examples of leechers in both Eureka as well as in Trials when they were mandatory for Relic progress)

So, again, while you're advocating from an entirely selfish point of view, because the Relic happens to be exclusive to your preferred content. I'm advocating for a new system that doesn't force specific content, this is notably different to previous relics which did have specific content in some stages. Meaning that all players of the game can grind out for their Relic and don't have to go leech from a particular type of content.

This is in addition to also advocating that your preferred content gets additional rewards in exchange for the "End Goal" no longer being just the Relic. Even if I personally would never end up attaining these rewards due to not liking the content.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yes, but you're making out that only the RELIC is a reward enough to justify Eureka and that no-other reward in the entire game would have the same draw.

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It's not, but saying this misses the point that was made extremely clear in the dev interview that Reynhart is referencing (I would highly suggest giving it a read if you haven't because it renders a lot of what you are saying factually incorrect). Eureka was designed as content to house the relic, relic was not an afterthought reward to entice people to do Eureka. Talking about other rewards having the same draw is irrelevant, because it was planned to be relic from the outset. Yes, other rewards would draw people to Eureka, the ozma mount has been a popular carrot, and I have seen a tonne of people glamming the hydatos armor. These are all rewards that take time and effort to get, and are not relic.

Eureka doesn't NEED Relic, but it was concepted with relic in mind. That was the devs conscious choice, both can survive without the other, especially now that the foundations of Eureka have been established, but the core of Eureka is about relic.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I'm trying to get the Relic back to being more widely available, so that not only would it have literally no impact on you whatsoever, as you'd still be able to gain the Relic through your preferred content (In addition I'm also advocating for MORE REWARDS for you to get via your preferred content), but then OTHER people (Yes, myself included), would also be able to gain the Relic through their preferred content.

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I'm going to be honest, reasoning aside, your idea of how relic should be handled is extremely bland. I never finished the 3.X relic because I just got tired of the monotony and it just wasn't a fun experience to run content I had already done on repeat while watching netflix on the other screen. Eureka on the other hand, while it did have that monotony, gave me new content to engage in, with a lot more content like logograms, lockboxes and other rewards making the journey to completing the relic feel so much more rewarding and feel a lot shorter.

If you can somehow replicate that feeling that Eureka achieved in your idea, sure I'd be ok with that, but what you currently have is "go tomestone grind" which people are already sick of after 6 years of doing nothing but that.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Have you ever considered that maybe they wanted to create content dedicated to the relic so as to be able push this twice failed content by attaching it to some other niche content that already had a following?

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I really love when people rather build their conspiracy theory than taking information for what they are.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

BLU that is literally the most party dependent job in the game.

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Strange because I'm pretty sure every other job needs a party to clear even the low level dungeons, and are pretty encouraged to be in a group just to reach max level quickly.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Especially since in Eureka the relic was a side-reward for basic content, given it was merely just FATE farming and Light/Logos farming.

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Sure, FFXIV has so many content focused on chaining mobs, exploring zones, choosing specifics targets for specific rewards, dropping in and out of parties...

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yes, but you're making out that only the RELIC is a reward enough to justify Eureka and that no-other reward in the entire game would have the same draw.

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Yes, the relic is the only reward to justify the relic content. i.e, I wouldn't grind for hours to just get a mount. Exactly like mounts, titles and achievements would probably not keep Savage alive for very long.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

You're the one currently in this thread defending Relic exclusivity. Yoshi-P is not.

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That's what "making a content dedicated to the relic means".

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Also, while the basis for my argument stems from me not liking the content, the fact remains that I'm actually pushing for inclusivity.

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No, you're pushing for a bypass. You would be pushing for inclusivity is you asked the same concept for other weapons too. After all, maybe some people want a nice looking Alpha weapon but don't like Savage. Or an Empyrean weapon but they find HoH boring. There's no reason for the relic to be the only weapon to be spread out of its dedicated content.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Unlike you who has already admitted that you only cared about the Relic because it was tied to content you liked.

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Silly me for claiming I wouldn't do a content I don't like. It's so much smarter to punish oneself when playing a video game that's supposed to be "fun".

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Thus are using that fact to try and keep the Relic exclusive to your preferred content.

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No, trying to keep the Relic exclusive to...its dedicated content. The main difference is that if I didn't like Eureka, I would still advocate to keep it here, because making the relic a glorified tome weapon is boring.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I'm trying to get the Relic back to being more widely available, so that not only would it have literally no impact on you whatsoever, as you'd still be able to gain the Relic through your preferred content

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Well, it would because it would spread relic grinders into separate content, making less people do each of them. The fact that con-Eureka players went in Eureka provided criticism (more constructive than "Wa wa delete") and definitely helped improve the last installments. If those people would be able to skip it, they would have said nothing.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It's not, but saying this misses the point that was made extremely clear in the dev interview that Reynhart is referencing (I would highly suggest giving it a read if you haven't because it renders a lot of what you are saying factually incorrect). Eureka was designed as content to house the relic, relic was not an afterthought reward to entice people to do Eureka.

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Yeah, but I can also point to interviews and evidence of devs saying BLU is a solo job, not suitable for parties.

Yet, their implementation of it speaks contrary to all of their interviews.

Like, even the fact that within the content to house the relic, the relic is a side-quest. The main story in Eureka is Krile's quests about figuring out how the island moved across the world, what the deal is with her grandfather that WoL is having flashbacks about, what that hooded dude is doing that WoL keeps seeing.

With every now and then, there being a small aside where she goes "Oh yeah, Gerolt wanted to talk to you about something" to which he starts to be... Some sort of comedic relief? Where he goes on about "You need to go find... Stuff. Then I can make a strong weapon. Maybe. I dunno lel xD Look, I have a kettle!"

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Talking about other rewards having the same draw is irrelevant, because it was planned to be relic from the outset.

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It is not irrelevant. Since, in case you were not aware, this thread was created entirely about FUTURE "Eureka" type content.

Literally the first line of the OP is:

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Having heard they plan something like Eureka in 5.0 i just had to throw my 2 cents in.

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All these discussions around "Eureka" are not talking about retro-actively changing Eureka itself, but instead talking about future "Eureka" content.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Eureka doesn't NEED Relic, but it was concepted with relic in mind. That was the devs conscious choice, both can survive without the other, especially now that the foundations of Eureka have been established, but the core of Eureka is about relic.

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This literally just supports my argument.

If both pieces of content can thrive without one another, and the foundations of Eureka content that people don't all hate as is the case with Diadem. Then there exists the possibility to then separate the Relic from "Eureka" content and allow multiple ways to progress on the Relic, just like in previous ones, while allowing "Eureka" content to thrive off its own merit and rewards.

Which is what people are asking for. Not "Let us grind for the Physeos Weapons from Duties"

Physeos Weapons can stay exclusive to Eureka. That's fine. The argument being made is that some people wish that FUTURE Relics are not exclusive to the "Eureka" type content.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I'm going to be honest, reasoning aside, your idea of how relic should be handled is extremely bland.

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I'm sure someone could come up with a more interesting solution if they weren't trying to argue with people who feel that Relics should remain exclusive to their preferred content.

Tome grind, is not the best alternative, however, it's a very easy example of a solution to allow multiple avenues to work towards the same Relic, so no-one feels forced into running content they dislike for the large grind that is a Relic weapon.

Like, if I was to try and think of a more interesting solution, I'd probably come up with something more akin to 3.X's Crystal Sand. Where you had multiple different items from different pieces of content that you could go out and farm in order to obtain the Crystal Sands.

Take an idea like that, and flesh it out with some creativity, such as giving bonuses to said item collection rate when doing the most recent Dungeons/Trials/Eureka zones/Raids.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Eureka on the other hand, while it did have that monotony, gave me new content to engage in, with a lot more content like logograms, lockboxes and other rewards making the journey to completing the relic feel so much more rewarding and feel a lot shorter.

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The reason that Eureka relic felt shorter, is because it was. It has far fewer steps than previous relics as well as most of the steps also able to gather materials necessary for additional Relics on other jobs (I.e. If you're doing FATE Trains for the Boss items you need, you will end up getting excess Crystals/Light that you use on other Relics)

Though, this isn't to say that you wouldn't still be able to have these feelings if the Relic became progressable through multiple ways, since, given that one of the things being advocated is that you're still able to progress it through "Eureka" content it means you CAN still do this "New" content and farm up your lockboxes and Logos while you work on your Relic.

Just, other people can, if they prefer, then also farm Duties if they wished. That's the thing here, I'm advocating for multiple avenues so that people can pick their preferred way to grind. I'm not advocating to make "Eureka" content no longer being an option to work on the Relic, merely that it's not the ONLY way to work on the Relic.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I really love when people rather build their conspiracy theory than taking information for what they are.

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When information is contrary to implementation, I'm partial to second guess said information.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Strange because I'm pretty sure every other job needs a party to clear even the low level dungeons, and are pretty encouraged to be in a group just to reach max level quickly.

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I'm pretty sure that no other job needs to party in order to complete their JOB QUESTS.

Nor does any other job need to party in order to GET THEIR SKILLS.

Other jobs are "Encouraged" to group to level. And need a party to clear low level dungeons at level.

But they're not REQUIRED. Other jobs can level just fine alone, they learn all their skills alone, all of their job quests are easily completed alone. For soloing low level dungeons, other jobs are in the same boat as BLU, which is that they need to outlevel them in order to do so.

Hence, BLU is the most party orientated job in the game, since some of the features of the job that every other job can do solo, BLU requires a party to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, FFXIV has so many content focused on chaining mobs, exploring zones, choosing specifics targets for specific rewards, dropping in and out of parties...

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Chaining mobs existed before they added in alternate ways to gain experience that were much, much better.

Exploring zones... Is literally what the Sightseeing Log is all about.

Choosing specific targets for specific rewards... You mean like Hunts?

Dropping in and out of parties... Sounds like Rank A and S Hunts. Also, sounds a lot like old FATE Train experience grinds that existed before they made crap like Duties and PotD so much more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, the relic is the only reward to justify the relic content. i.e, I wouldn't grind for hours to just get a mount. Exactly like mounts, titles and achievements would probably not keep Savage alive for very long.

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Interesting that you've changed your tune on this over time.

Used to be that you exclaimed that the Relic didn't need to be the end reward for Eureka just that it made sense to put grind reward at the end of grind content...

Now it's "Relic of GTFO" :rolleyes:

Also, again, it's not as if I'm suggesting removing the ability to grind "Eureka" content for the Relic. In fact, I'm suggesting ADDING more stuff to grind for in "Eureka" content in addition to being able to grind for the Relic.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's no reason for the relic to be the only weapon to be spread out of its dedicated content.

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Except for the fact that in previous Relics you were able to progress on it with multiple types of content?

Except for the fact that unlike Alpha or Empyrean weapons, the Relic is a large grind throughout an entire expansion?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Silly me for claiming I wouldn't do a content I don't like. It's so much smarter to punish oneself when playing a video game that's supposed to be "fun".

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Yet you defend with zeal the notion that people whom have grown accustom to working on the Relic with content they like when asking for the Relic to once again being able to be worked on with content they like are somehow not allowed this?

Even if their idea still has literally no impact on you being able to do content you like in order to access the Relic that you don't care about unless it's conveniently placed into content you like (While these people have cared about the Relic even when they had to do content they didn't like, some have even forced their way through Eureka to get the Relic despite not liking that content)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, trying to keep the Relic exclusive to...its dedicated content. The main difference is that if I didn't like Eureka, I would still advocate to keep it here, because making the relic a glorified tome weapon is boring.

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Yeah, sure. It's easy to play the Martyr when it happens that it's not the case that you even need to be in the situation where your argument would be pushing for a reward you care about being in content you don't care about.

I mean, you've already stated that 1) You only cared about the Relic because it was in content you liked and 2) That you like Eureka.

So, claiming that you're somehow a saint because if the Relic (Which you don't care about) was in content you didn't care about that you'd still be pushing for that exclusivity doesn't mean a great deal.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, it would because it would spread relic grinders into separate content, making less people do each of them. The fact that con-Eureka players went in Eureka provided criticism (more constructive than "Wa wa delete") and definitely helped improve the last installments. If those people would be able to skip it, they would have said nothing.

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Do you have proof that Con-Eureka players provided constructive feedback that lead to the improvements? That it wasn't just Pro-Eureka players that was providing that feedback?

Also, "Spreading grinders into separate content" suggests that you believe that Dungeons, Trials and Raids are dead because all the Relic Grinders are in Eureka...

Or is it that you believe that Eureka is poor enough content that without the Con-Eureka players forcing themselves into the content purely for the Relic that "Eureka" content would be dead?

The thread of spreading grinders too thinly only has merit if, "Eureka" content was poorly received so that only a tiny number of players actually enjoyed it or if there existed additional types of "Overworld-esk" grind locations that was similar to "Eureka" content that was relevant to grinding the Relic.

If however, alternate means of grinding was duties... Then how would it be much different from now, where duty grinders grind duties and Eureka grinders grind Eureka?

You know, except for their being fewer leechers in Eureka that are AFK waiting for NM spawns instead of actually helping spawn them, or grouping with people to chain enemies/farm light/logos...

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Originally Posted by Kalise

When information is contrary to implementation, I'm partial to second guess said information.

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Except that it's not. Eureka is exactly what it was advertised to be, and was created for the reason they claimed it to be. A content where the main goal is to build the relic, not targeted at everyone.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

The main story in Eureka is Krile's quests about figuring out how the island moved across the world, what the deal is with her grandfather that WoL is having flashbacks about, what that hooded dude is doing that WoL keeps seeing.

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Yes, because, they learned back in ARR that putting a story behind something that requires dedication will only make people complain. If you're only interested in the story, you just need to level up, do the quests, and you're done. Although, to be fair, I'm surprised they put the epiloque after the Arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I'm pretty sure that no other job needs to party in order to complete their JOB QUESTS.

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Neither does BLU.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Nor does any other job need to party in order to GET THEIR SKILLS.

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No, but they need them to get their gear, to reach their full potential. None of the EX skills are really required for BLU dedicated content.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

For soloing low level dungeons, other jobs are in the same boat as BLU, which is that they need to outlevel them in order to do so.

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Except BLU don't need to outlevel them.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Hence, BLU is the most party orientated job in the game, since some of the features of the job that every other job can do solo, BLU requires a party to accomplish.

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What can other jobs do solo that BLU can't ?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Chaining mobs existed before they added in alternate ways to gain experience that were much, much better.

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Not in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Exploring zones... Is literally what the Sightseeing Log is all about.

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Sure, flying over everything to use an emote at specific points. Totally the same.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Choosing specific targets for specific rewards... You mean like Hunts?

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Right, like hunts. Like this A rank that gives seals and tomestones...and that other A rank that gives...seals and tomestones...or that other A rank...that gives...seals and tomestones. Very strategic choices.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Also, sounds a lot like old FATE Train experience grinds that existed before they made crap like Duties and PotD so much more efficient.

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Except that FATE are not tied with what the people do, so there was no train management or community.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Used to be that you exclaimed that the Relic didn't need to be the end reward for Eureka just that it made sense to put grind reward at the end of grind content...

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The relic don't need to be the end reward for completing Eureka. It needs to be the end reward for grinding for hours aside of completing it. Even though Eureka was created for the relic, it's not just the relic, since you can do it without touching your weapon, but the grinding inside it needs the relic as a reward. Would you gather hundreds of crystals and farm lights for hours for a title ? Or a mount ?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Except for the fact that in previous Relics you were able to progress on it with multiple types of content?

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Yeah, and that was considered a problem by the dev team, remember ?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Except for the fact that unlike Alpha or Empyrean weapons, the Relic is a large grind throughout an entire expansion?

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It doesn't matter. Relic asks one type of dedication that people might not want to put. I might not want to put time in repeating HoH over and over again in the chance to gain enough power to create the Empyrean, especially since I might not have finished PotD, so I might not even enter HoH, or suffer through Savage for the end weapon. Why shouldn't I be offered more options, then ?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yet you defend with zeal the notion that people whom have grown accustom to working on the Relic with content they like when asking for the Relic to once again being able to be worked on with content they like are somehow not allowed this?

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On that specific topic, what I defend with zeal is "Don't like it, don't do it". Suffering through Eureka because you wanted the relic doesn't put you in a noble position to attack me because I wouldn't do the same.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yeah, sure. It's easy to play the Martyr when it happens that it's not the case that you even need to be in the situation where your argument would be pushing for a reward you care about being in content you don't care about.

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Funny, it's almost like all the people that where perfectly fine with the relic being tied to Eureka, and Eureka not being for everyone years ago and backpedal heavily now because they claim that relic should be for all.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I mean, you've already stated that 1) You only cared about the Relic because it was in content you liked and 2) That you like Eureka.
So, claiming that you're somehow a saint because if the Relic (Which you don't care about) was in content you didn't care about that you'd still be pushing for that exclusivity doesn't mean a great deal.

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Yes, and I also stated that you simply shouldn't do a content you don't like. So, connecting the dots should easily gives the conclusion that if I don't like the next relic content, I would simply don't do it and not create threads and threads about how the relic should be made more available. I also suggested that exclusivity is important because otherwise content might be dead on arrival, and that tome gear is too powerful because it negates the weight of dungeons rewards, primal weapons and even raid gear. So, trust me, I'll never advocate to make important gear available for simply running daily roulettes over and over again like you could in ARR and HW.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Also, "Spreading grinders into separate content" suggests that you believe that Dungeons, Trials and Raids are dead because all the Relic Grinders are in Eureka...Or is it that you believe that Eureka is poor enough content that without the Con-Eureka players forcing themselves into the content purely for the Relic that "Eureka" content would be dead?

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So kind of you to only give me two (totally unbiased, of course) options. But it's neither. It's simply that having two content with the same mindset with split part of your playerbase with that same mindset. And you know you can still like Eureka even if you prefer another type of grinding content, right ? But if your goal is shared between the two, you will mostly do the content you prefer.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

The thread of spreading grinders too thinly only has merit if, "Eureka" content was poorly received

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"only...if"...well, if you say so, it must be true, I guess. Or simply because "heavy grinding" being a niche activity, it already covers only a small part of the playerbase, and splitting them would only make each content having, at best, half the population it has now, on top of having to balance the two options so that none of them is heavily unfair.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

If however, alternate means of grinding was duties... Then how would it be much different from now, where duty grinders grind duties and Eureka grinders grind Eureka?

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It would be different because even some Eureka grinders would switch to the fast food, generic appeal of duties, since it requires no organisation, no communication and no progression at all.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

You know, except for their being fewer leechers in Eureka that are AFK waiting for NM spawns instead of actually helping spawn them, or grouping with people to chain enemies/farm light/logos...

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You would have less people period. Not just leechers.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except that it's not. Eureka is exactly what it was advertised to be, and was created for the reason they claimed it to be. A content where the main goal is to build the relic, not targeted at everyone.

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Except, even in Eureka, the Relic takes a back seat. Being just tossed in as Krile's afterthought to the main questline of "Go talk to Gerolt about something"

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, because, they learned back in ARR that putting a story behind something that requires dedication will only make people complain. If you're only interested in the story, you just need to level up, do the quests, and you're done. Although, to be fair, I'm surprised they put the epiloque after the Arsenal.

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Well, apparently they didn't learn particularly quickly, given that HW's Relic had a story behind it and required dedication...

You might argue that the story wasn't particularly great, but it was still there. Behind the gate of the Relic grind.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Neither does BLU.

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Unless you want to finish the level 50 Quest, which requires you to learn Glower, which is only sourced from unsoloable content (Outside maybe the Alexandrite treasure chests that occasionally feature a Cyclops... Though I've yet to see if they cast "Glower")

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, but they need them to get their gear, to reach their full potential. None of the EX skills are really required for BLU dedicated content.

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BLU needs Garuda for their only Wind aspected skill.

BLU also needs to do Stone Vigil (Hard) or The Steps of Faith in order to get Diamondback which is necessary for some of the Masked Carnivale stages.

Also, no, other jobs don't need parties for gear. You can solo craft high item level gear as well as solo grind out Tomes of Genesis (Such as by going into Eureka and leeching from NM's) to buy Tome gear.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except BLU don't need to outlevel them.

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Actually they do.

Unless you can go show me a BLU that is able to solo their way through Aurum Vale to learn Glower. Heck, go in as an unsync'd level 50 (Outleveling the dungeon) and still try and solo up to Glower.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What can other jobs do solo that BLU can't ?

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Their job quests. Again, BLU needs a party to go learn Glower to do their level 50 job quest.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not in XIV.

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I certainly recall chaining mobs back in 2.0. Better than sitting on my hands while waiting for FATEs to respawn.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, flying over everything to use an emote at specific points. Totally the same.

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As opposed to what in Eureka? Exploring to find...? An Elemental Fairy thing for a buff?

Also, in ARR the Sightseeing Log had you decipher clues and find specific places at specific times/weather and do specific emotes (Rather than HW/SB logs that were mostly the same emote)

There's also treasure maps in non-Eureka content, where you "Explore" to find the location.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Right, like hunts. Like this A rank that gives seals and tomestones...and that other A rank that gives...seals and tomestones...or that other A rank...that gives...seals and tomestones. Very strategic choices.

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It's still a mechanic that has existed in XIV forever. Sure, they could have expanded on it. But it still exists. It's not like it's a brand new thing that Eureka has done that has never been seen in the game before ever.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except that FATE are not tied with what the people do, so there was no train management or community.

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I remember there being train management and community. I remember it being pretty much exactly the same as it occurs in Eureka. Only without also needing someone to maintain a Tracker for the instance to see what FATEs can be spawned.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The relic don't need to be the end reward for completing Eureka. It needs to be the end reward for grinding for hours aside of completing it. Even though Eureka was created for the relic, it's not just the relic, since you can do it without touching your weapon, but the grinding inside it needs the relic as a reward. Would you gather hundreds of crystals and farm lights for hours for a title ? Or a mount ?

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Sure, I'd farm a ton for a title or a mount.

So long as the grind wasn't total trash.

But then again, I also farmed for The Insane title in WoW, I farmed dungeons/raids endlessly for 0.1% drop chance mounts (Over the course of literal years). I farmed every faction rep to not only the required exalted, but to 999/1000 max for simply an achievement.

I'm farming MGP to buy cosmetics and mounts from Gold Saucer. I'm farming out 2.0 and 3.0 relics for just Glamour. I'm planning of farming DF on PLD/DRK for their mounts too, despite me not particularly liking them as jobs to play.

I grind for plenty of things. So long as the grind isn't total garbage, I'm fairly open to rewards.

Also again, I'm not advocating of removing the ability to farm for the relic in "Eureka" content.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yeah, and that was considered a problem by the dev team, remember ?

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And I'm arguing that it need not be considered a problem, remember?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It doesn't matter. Relic asks one type of dedication that people might not want to put. I might not want to put time in repeating HoH over and over again in the chance to gain enough power to create the Empyrean, or suffer through Savage for the end weapon. Why shouldn't I be offered more options, then ?

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Because the Relic is an expansion long grind? Which means if it's tied to specific content you have to play that specific content for the entire expansion? Meanwhile for Savage/HoH, you only need to play through that content long enough to obtain the weapon once and you're done.

To say nothing about the precedent that the Relic already has for being obtainable through multiple means. While Alpha and Empyrean weapons have only ever been attainable through their respective content.

Also, no-one's denying you the ability to request Alpha/Empyrean weapons through alternate means. If you feel you deserve to be able to attained them through alternate means, go ahead and put up a suggestion. Don't just whine about other people bothering to make a suggestion that doesn't include every single item in the game in its scope.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On that specific topic, what I defend with zeal is "Don't like it, don't do it". Suffering through Eureka because you wanted the relic doesn't put you in a noble position to attack me because I wouldn't do the same.

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I never claimed to be in a noble position.

I'm here with a very clear position. Which is, I personally don't like Eureka content and I feel that the Relic weapon, which used to be available through multiple avenues of content, should once again be created with multiple avenues of content being usable to work on it, including "Eureka" content.

With, additional stuff to grind for added into "Eureka" content too.

That is it. Nothing more. I don't pretend like I'm being benevolent, or noble. My desires are fuelled by personal wishes, it's just that, I'm also aware that making things better for everyone is also easily possible while fulfilling my personal wishes.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Funny, it's almost like all the people that where perfectly fine with the relic being tied to Eureka, and Eureka not being for everyone years ago and backpedal heavily now because they claim that relic should be for all.

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I can't speak for others, but an no point have I ever stated years ago being fine with the Relic being tied to Eureka.

Mainly because I only started utilizing the forums and paying attention to announcements like those at Fan Fests relatively recently.

I can only assume that years ago, no-one knew what Eureka was going to be like. Ergo, it's hard to be against it if you have literally no idea that it was just going to be a glorified zone of FATE Trains and Light farming.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, and I also stated that you simply shouldn't do a content you don't like. So, connecting the dots should easily gives the conclusion that if I don't like the next relic content, I would simply don't do it and not create threads and threads about how the relic should be made more available.

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And this is supposed to mean something to me?

Why should I care if you'd make a thread about something?

I'm not the forum police. I couldn't care less if you made threads about stuff.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So kind of you to only give me two (totally unbiased, of course) options. But it's neither. It's simply that having two content with the same mindset with split part of your playerbase with that same mindset. And you know you can still like Eureka even if you prefer another type of grinding content, right ? But if your goal is shared between the two, you will mostly do the content you prefer.

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Then it leads back to the option regarding "Eureka" content not being as liked as you hoped.

If your goal is shared between two types of content and you prefer one of them but still like the other... You'll still do both. Since you'll likely find it monotonous to keep doing the same content for as long as a Relic grind lasts.

To say nothing about the OTHER rewards each type of content brings. Maybe you stop playing your preferred content and start doing "Eureka" because you have obtained all the non-Relic rewards from your preferred content, but still have all of "Eureka's" unique rewards left to get that you'll work on alongside your Relic grind.

Since it seems like all you associate "Eureka" with is the Relic. Never mind the set of armour you can upgrade, all the mounts, minions, hairstyles and furniture that the place contains.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

"only...if"...well, if you say so, it must be true, I guess. Or simply because "heavy grinding" being a niche activity, it already covers only a small part of the playerbase, and splitting them would only make each content having, at best, half the population it has now, on top of having to balance the two options so that none of them is heavily unfair.

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Or maybe, if both pieces of content are equally well designed and thus liked, that both can exist even with "Heavy Grind" players being split between them?

Or maybe you know... Other rewards are a draw to get people to play both pieces of content - Independent of the Relic.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It would be different because even some Eureka grinders would switch to the fast food, generic appeal of duties, since it requires no organisation, no communication and no progression at all.

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So basically, some Eureka grinders would abandon their "Preferred" content?

Is this supposed to be an argument that Eureka is well designed and well liked when you're stating that even people who like the content will ditch it if possible?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You would have less people period. Not just leechers.

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You got proof of those claims? Especially if there was more "Eureka" specific content like I'm suggesting there be.

You got any proof that these claims would even have an effect? Given that Eureka already runs on an instance based format limited to 144 people per instance, all you need is 144 people in the content and you wouldn't know the difference between it being the most popular thing in the world, or just being niche content.

Or are you just scared that the content will be dead because everyone will ditch the place like hot garbage in favour of literally anything else to do with the Relic because no-one cared about the content or any of the other rewards associated with the content?

Since this is just false, plenty of people have mentioned they liked the content, plenty of people have farmed out the minions and mounts and hairstyles etc.

Thus, the content will be populated. Especially if it's implemented after taking into consideration peoples feedback about Eureka, meaning it won't drive people away with crappy NM spawns and trashy Pagos light farms.

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eureka.

If we use that argument, then we need to apply it to other things.
If I don't like Savage, I should have a way to grind for the Savage weapon without setting foot into Savage.
If I don't like Extreme primals, I should have a way to grind for their weapons without setting foot into Extreme primals.
If I don't like Ultimate, same boat.
Then it would make sense to have a separate path for Eureka as well.

And frankly, I would support having multiple paths to do everything. But the chances of that happening are close to zero, so why would people like Eureka to be the only content to have an alternate path?

I think it's just entitlement. A very vocal minority dislikes Eureka and feels entitled to the weapon without having to put in the effort for it.
I don't do Savage, yet I'm not asking to have a way to get these weapons. They are tied to Savage and it makes sense like that. Just as it does for Eureka.

I often see the argument that Eureka would be deserted if relic wasn't tied to it.
To that I would say, what do you think would happen if you took out all the rewards from Ultimate and just rewarded a title. Would many people bother with it? Same for savage to an extent.
We need rewards in any content to incentivize people to play. It's worked like that since this game was alive.

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Originally Posted by shibeouya

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eureka.

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I can't understand the folks who claim that the Relic should be separated in to some new content to allow them to completely bypass the Tome grinding and old content.

If we use that argument, then we need to apply it to other things.

If I don't like Savage, I should have a way to grind for the Savage weapon without setting foot into Savage.

If I don't like Extreme Primals, I should have a way to grind for their weapons without setting foot into Extreme Trials.

If I don't like Ultimate, same boat.

Then it would make sense to create new content to stick the Relic behind.

I think it's just entitlement. A very vocal minority dislikes farming old content and feels entitled to the weapon without having to put in the effort for it.

I don't do Savage, yet I'm not asking to have a way to get these weapons. They are tied to Savage and it makes sense like that. Just as it does for Relic grinds.

I often see the argument that old content would be deserted if Relic wasn't tied to it.

To that I would say, what do you think would happen if you took out all the rewards from Ultimate and just rewarded a title. Would many people bother with it? Same for Savage to an extent.

We need rewards in any content to incentivize people to play. It's worked like that since this game was alive.


I hope you realize it's possible to make the same arguments when talking about shifting from previous Relic grinds which were more flexible into "Eureka" right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Even more so when you claim it's "Entitlement" because people don't want to "Put the effort in" while most Eureka players say that Eureka has been easier and faster than previous Relics.

But yet, people who complained about previous Relics get catered for with this new "Eureka" content that is apparently, easier and faster to grind for relics. While anyone who was okay with the previous methods is now "Entitled". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Even ignoring the fact that, personally, I'm advocating for more "Unique Eureka" stuff to have as rewards. In addition to being able to farm out Relics. So it's less "Wah, I want Eureka's stuff" and more "Wah, I want my stuff back, give the Eureka players NEW stuff to go with their NEW content"

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Originally Posted by shibeouya

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eurek.

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Gets to a point where it doesn't pay to respond anymore. Points have been made, opinions expressed. To each their own but the developers are the ones making the decisions. They took feedback and made Eureka for relic because they recognized that people weren't happy overall just running the same old boring content over and over again. They've taken feedback again I'm sure and have looked at the participation this xpac and will come up with a formula for relic for 5.0. The fact they expressed something to the effect they are working on Eureka type content sort of indicates relic will be more than just a rehash of old content. Perhaps they will broaden the scope both with instanced open world and the regular world but that remains to be seen.

I've expressed my views. i've enjoyed Eureka in 4.0 and am so happy we got something new. I certainly hope 5.0 will bring us new content as well and not simply a rework and rehash of the current Eureka formula.

Perhaps we'll learn something about it with the upcoming Tokyo event in about 10 days although I suspect that info will come later in upcoming live letters.

I think I'd rather spend 500 hours in eureka than 500 hours in say normal dungeons. Imagine how much people would hate bardam's mettle if they had hundreds more runs of it left to go for their weapon. So in that sense I'm glad they made new content rather than sending us on a massive farm of old content. Yes there are many flaws in eureka but experimentation and iteration may eventually lead to content that most people like. I think eureka went over better than diadem, maybe next expansion the side content will be something good based on lessons learned from this patch cycle.

The thing that keeps surprising me about eureka is how many different ways people keep finding to be rude and selfish and problematic. Some people who don't need crystals any more have started going into instances just to cause problems for people who are still farming, like pulling far and reseting an NM that was almost dead so we wasted our time fighting it, or entering BA alone and sitting there a while to prevent ovni spawning again for people later because it counts as a BA run already in progress. They just annoy people because they find it funny and negative attention is better than nobody giving them attention I guess.

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Originally Posted by shibeouya

I can't understand the folks who claim that the relic should have different paths to allow them to completely bypass Eureka.

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Maybe thats because the last Relic gave us different choices to farm several Steps of the weapon. You could do dungeons.. OR raids.. OR savage Raids.. you even got Light in PvP and so on. You just had a MUCH larger variety of Things you COULD do instead of having to grind Fates/mobs all over the place and that being the only way to progress the Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Maybe thats because the last Relic gave us different choices to farm several Steps of the weapon. You could do dungeons.. OR raids.. OR savage Raids.. you even got Light in PvP and so on. You just had a MUCH larger variety of Things you COULD do instead of having to grind Fates/mobs all over the place and that being the only way to progress the Weapon.

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Which was a far slower process when those relic stages were first added even when trying to optimize to only do the duties that currently had bonus light. And also a process that was often aggravating because your duties unless running entirely with people in your FC or friends list would often have multiple people that join and leech resulting in wipes because you couldn't just unsync the content to clear it or would result in the duty taking far longer than it should have.

I agree NO more Eureka.
Its said it resembles FFXI and sorry it does NOT at all. Its boring AF. Refused to do it even for the unlocks.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You didn't lose content, you lost a reward. Past relics were basically Tome Farming, and tome farming is still in the game, and already provides the overall best casual weapon. However, people that are bored of tome farming after several years of it actually gained a "new" content.

Also, saying that Eureka only survived because people wanted the rewards there is a nonsense. Every content only survives because people want something there. The only exception is the extremely small part of the playerbase that actually runs Savage and Ultimate for the competitive aspect even after they have all the items they need.

Frankly, I felt the dungeons were really bland, especially considering they could have done something much more interesting lorewise with The Burn and Ghimlyt Dark. As for instance battes, we have more of them in SB than what we had in HW, so it's not like they sacrificed it for Eureka.

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Agreed.

I am so sick of cookie cutter dungeons.

trash/boss/trash/bass/trash/boss.

I wont say get rid of dungeons because I do not like it.

I played allot of Heavensward and did mainly savage Alexander and did the dungeons once to finish them.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Myself and many others I play with enjoy Eureka, it's our favorite content in the game. I'm personally very happy they will be adding another version of it in ShB.

I just don't get all of this vehement aggression towards it. I don't like Savage Raiding or PvP, yet I don't bemoan SE or Players that enjoy it, I'm happy people are able to have something in this game they enjoy and am happy for them when they succeed at it. The rewards from both are good, but I don't feel that I'm owed any of it, the people that put in the effort for it did hard work and deserve it just as myself and others who enjoy eureka got joy out of getting our rewards from it.

Please stop asking for content to be removed that you personally don't like, we all have aspects of this game we enjoy and none of us want that feeling taken away.

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I agree I like it but have not had the time for it lately.
What I do not get is why if someone does not like it they can not let others like it.
Seriously for those that have the time and want the grind why cant they have something to do.
This game offers a ton of casual content.
If someone does not like it, do not do it then! Who says you have to do all the content.
Why cant the game have stuff for all players.

@ shibeouya, it is not entitlement, etc... And you know for a fact that it is a minority that dislike Eureka?
Just because zones could be full that cannot be gauged on if people like it or not, some force themselves to do it for various reasons. As players have for past Relics i suppose.
Past Relics you could do on your own at your own pace and the Relic felt personal not something just tacked on to content just because.

This is all just my opinion of course

In my experience up to pagos, Eureka transfers all the grinding done in the open world to a zone designed for grinding. I havent progessed past pagos because i cant think of anything worse to do with my time. Not to mention losing your mount in pagos seemed like a massive screw you after working to get it back. I want progress. Not regression.

Many people have said the later zones get better but honestly cant be bothered. Baldesions Arsenal or relic weapon is not enough of a carrot for me to endure the torture of pagos.

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Originally Posted by Phileas

I want progress. Not regression.

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How can you cope with each new open-world zone where flying is unavailable after you acquired it in an earlier zone ? Or with every expansion when you go from level cap to entry level ?

The former is pretty jarring because having to walk across the entirety of Canada everytime you enter a new zone to go through the story is whack.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Which was a far slower process when those relic stages were first added even when trying to optimize to only do the duties that currently had bonus light. And also a process that was often aggravating because your duties unless running entirely with people in your FC or friends list would often have multiple people that join and leech resulting in wipes because you couldn't just unsync the content to clear it or would result in the duty taking far longer than it should have.

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Speed isn't everything. For some, the variety and ability to mix it up in how you tackled steps is way more important.

I played EQ for years. I did de-leveling, and hell levels (which apparently XI managed to avoid), sitting in one spot and pulling mobs, camping the items just to start my pre-epic quest for days, etc. This experience is nothing new to me. Eureka is the most god-awful boring content I have ever experienced in this game. I will never get tired of instances, because I remember when LDoN came out in EQ and we could actually *move through an instance*. It's laughable for me that I would willingly go back to camp and grind. Which is why I quit with 13 light left to get in Pagos. I couldn't do it anymore.

They can keep Eureka-like content as one path for the relic for those who like it. But they need another path that relies more on the original type of options. And the ability to move between the paths. Then players *could* dip their toe into the Eureka-like content if they wanted to for a step, and then do the next using another option. Having variety will only benefit them here.

Honestly, I think this is the best way they've handled the grindy relic so far. Having it's own thing; being it's own path towards gearing. The relic weapon has mostly been a novelty in my eyes even if it's effective. But HW's relic was a real low point if you ask me. It was a 2nd tome weapon. Why have two tome weapons? ARR's was all about fates and reusing outdated dungeons pretty much.

I get that some people don't like Eureka but want a relic, but I just have one thought: perhaps the obtaining a relic isn't supposed to be a forgone conclusion. Excluding tome stuff, you kinda have to go out of your way to get most gear and by that I mean there is only one way to get any particular piece at least when it was relevant. Do savage for the raid gear, Heaven on high for Empyrean, Eureka for relic. Seems pretty normal to me.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Speed isn't everything. For some, the variety and ability to mix it up in how you tackled steps is way more important.

I played EQ for years. I did de-leveling, and hell levels (which apparently XI managed to avoid), sitting in one spot and pulling mobs, camping the items just to start my pre-epic quest for days, etc. This experience is nothing new to me. Eureka is the most god-awful boring content I have ever experienced in this game. I will never get tired of instances, because I remember when LDoN came out in EQ and we could actually *move through an instance*. It's laughable for me that I would willingly go back to camp and grind. Which is why I quit with 13 light left to get in Pagos. I couldn't do it anymore.

They can keep Eureka-like content as one path for the relic for those who like it. But they need another path that relies more on the original type of options. And the ability to move between the paths. Then players *could* dip their toe into the Eureka-like content if they wanted to for a step, and then do the next using another option. Having variety will only benefit them here.

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I agree 100%... Except that I remember the EQ grind being more tolerable. At least there, I could set up camp a particular spot by my lonesome and still be sure to make some sort of progress. The map was also fairly easy to navigate, and there weren't any sleeping dragons or mobs with weird aggro rules. That's why I contend that Eureka actually represents a worse version of ye olde MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I can't understand the folks who claim that the Relic should be separated in to some new content to allow them to completely bypass the Tome grinding and old content.

If we use that argument, then we need to apply it to other things.

If I don't like Savage, I should have a way to grind for the Savage weapon without setting foot into Savage.

If I don't like Extreme Primals, I should have a way to grind for their weapons without setting foot into Extreme Trials.

If I don't like Ultimate, same boat.

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Or wanting to have "pvp" top 100 Rewards and not be willing to set foot in to the Feast.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

The former is pretty jarring because having to walk across the entirety of Canada everytime you enter a new zone to go through the story is whack.

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We can all use more Terry Fox in our lives.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I can't understand the folks who claim that the Relic should be separated in to some new content to allow them to completely bypass the Tome grinding and old content.

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The thing is, grinding old content is not a content in itself, so we can't use the argument that way. These old content already served their own purposes and have their own rewards. So grinding old content and tomes is not a content designed for the relic in mind, unlike Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Or wanting to have "pvp" top 100 Rewards and not be willing to set foot in to the Feast.

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Exactly! just like wanting to have the relic and not be willing to set foot in Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

How can you cope with each new open-world zone where flying is unavailable after you acquired it in an earlier zone ? Or with every expansion when you go from level cap to entry level ?

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This is such a flawed argument, you know a new expansion comes out every 2 years, not every other patch? It's a lot easier to tolerate something when you have to get through it every 2 years, not 4 times in an expansion besides the actual expansion leveling and flying unlocks. I can say for myself that I'm tired of these arbitrary leveling systems in content where it serves no purpose, in the actual game you level your job and there's actual progression, in Eureka you level because SE wanted to pad out the content. It would have made much more sense if the weapon had it's own progression system, you'd be leveling the weapon, the whole point of the content. At least then there'd be a proper reason for the leveling.

I don't mind doing new content for Relics but at least make it so we can do it solo.

Funnily enough, Eureka is the only people want to bypass.

For the PvP reward, with the exception of hairstyle or maybe those top 100 mount I never hear anybody asking fot PvP armor/weapon to be obtainable out of it or even being bypassed for any of its reward.

Can't remember a single post asking for primal loot to be obtainable anywhere else, at best I think I heard about mount rate drop to being a bit rash but then again its still not about getting them without fighting the boss.

Ultimate too, even being a bit more recent I can't find a thread about getting the flashy bahamut weapon or ultima one outside of it.

Same goes for savage, I can't remember a serious thread about getting the weapon outside of it maybe because that was adressed back in 2.x with the relic being par with it once the last relic patch hit.

But the relic was alway a hot topic and alway asked to get more and more option so nothing new under the sun. Its not even a complicated thing to understand : The relic had option often if not alway tied to the main content of the game, now they are none but one and a niche one to add more salt to the wound so people that aren't in to it ask for option for it to be more fun to get, its not even like you'd loose anything but having only people enjoying themselves to play with in place of salty hater gettin' no fun out of it.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

The thing is, grinding old content is not a content in itself, so we can't use the argument that way. These old content already served their own purposes and have their own rewards. So grinding old content and tomes is not a content designed for the relic in mind, unlike Eureka.

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Except for the fact that a main portion of the complaints around previous Relics was "I want Relic but don't want to farm old content"

So, it's exactly comparable.

Farming old content, extending its lifespan by breathing new rewards into it (Effectively like "Adding" new content by increasing the pool of relevant Dungeons/Trials) was something that enhanced gameplay. Something that was removed at the behest of people who complained about having to do that for the Relic.

One could use the exact same arguments as are being made for Eureka exclusivity on Relics for keeping Relics behind old content.

"You don't NEED the Relic"

"Don't like the content? Don't play it"

"Relic is supposed to be a grind that isn't for everyone"

Eureka is not designed with the Relic in mind. In the same sense that old content farms were not designed with the Relic in mind. Just having the Relic being exclusively earned from Eureka doesn't make it designed around it any more than Tam-Tara is designed for Zodiac weapons because you can farm up light there.

Nothing about Eureka explicitly is designed around the Relic. The story is mostly focused not on the Relic, but on the zone itself. The Relic isn't necessary at all to progress through the content. The Relic barely interacts with the content (Just the Elemental Bonus eventually). The Relic grind itself doesn't use anything that is unique to the content (FATEs/Light farms are not new. Neither is farming for items such as Logos Actions).

Just because the devs say "We designed the content for the Relic" doesn't actually make it so. If they had actually utilized unique Eureka only systems for the Relic grind (Such as needing to beat X, Y and Z enemies with your Elemental Wheel set to elements A, B and C, or with Magicite set in specific ways as opposed to stacking 5 in a single element to swap around for max damage with additional Magicite (That is attained through RNG currently...) being set to whatever the corresponding defence up will be) then this argument might have more merit.

However, as it stands, there is little difference between Eureka and previous Relics. Only that, inexplicably, instead of getting its own rewards (Which I advocate for) the Dev's got lazy and slapped in the Relic and removed the multi-faceted way of progressing such items that existed prior.

If, Eureka had been given its own, unique reward instead, this entire topic wouldn't exist. There wouldn't be an argument about Relics. There wouldn't be all these people complaining about Eureka (Aside from the "We lost content because of it!" thing, exacerbated by old content not being stretched out by Relic progression being tied to it). No-one would care that Eureka had exclusive rewards that could only be attained via grinding Eureka.

That is the crux of the issue. Instead of bothering to create new rewards for the new content, the Dev's decided to take an existing reward and stick it behind the new content. Not because they want to do something new, not because they feel the unique content is an interesting system for Relic progression (Since the Relic progression is largely unchanged from previous, in the sense that it's merely just FATE/Light farm stages ad infinitum) - Given the way that the Relic currently sits within the content. But because they're seemingly trying to entice people into a type of niche content that has failed previously as well as reduce the work needed to think of rewards by just taking another existing reward from somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Exactly! just like wanting to have the relic and not be willing to set foot in Eureka.

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It's more akin to if in ShB they made PvP top 100 rewards come from farming in a open world PvP zone. Where PvP enthusiasts then start complaining about having top 100 rewards no longer being tied to top 100 status and being told "Why do you need those rewards?" or "You still have wolf seal rewards!"

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

The only things not tied to the relic is the Eureka Story, pagos bunnies and basic area lockboxes. You go to the isle of Val for 2 reasons 1. Krile 2. Hancock/Rowena sees profit there so to start you went there because of weapons/relics and Krile it just evolved storywise to exclude the relic.
Also it is completely possible to never touch a fate to get to elv 60 but you have to do fates for relic so fates are implemented for the relic + exp

EDIT: Also all these things listed were not retroactively added to existing content the only step of the previous 2 relic questlines to have this was ARR base relic

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

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1. How the xp is even related to the relic, because at this point so does your chocobo and the mint herbs you fetch for Minfilia back then because you can't go to Eureka if you didn't do it, can you ?

2. Atma drop from fate, so fates was designed for the relic. said no one ever.

3. Wich aren't related outside of being a roadblock and the only meaning to even bother with it, once again isn't a proof of anything. Could have been an aftertough. "What do we do for them to look for logogram ? lets lock the relic behind it".

4. same here, prove nothing.

5. I'm pretty sure I can, but let say I can't. How it is related, I don't know, do you ?

6. So does PvP for precedent relic, PvP isn't designed with the relic in mind.

7. See answer n°2.

8. Go back to answer n°2 once again.

9. Wich is the only step related to the content and the only step that actualy don't serve any purpose outside of Eureka and maybe the only step deserving to stay an exclusive Eureka step even in future content, it don't add any non eurekan stat to it, totaly optional and I'm totaly fine with it. But once again, don't prove anything, could have been an argument if it was a thing back in anemos but it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

snip

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Not wanting to farm old content and not wanting to do a content designed for something are not the same thing. One can easily be labeled as lazy design (which have been numerous times before) and the other can't be labeled that so easily until the content is out and tried.

Imagine if SE was to stop making new contents and expansions and instead just kept adding rewards to force you to farm old content, is that going to prolong the life of the game the same way as if they added new content for these rewards? Of course not (assuming both the old and new content are good). And hence why both are not comperable.

And when we say Eureka was designed for the relic, we mean it was created as the mean of obtaining it. Having the story not to do anything with the relic doesn't mean eureka wasn't made for it. Savage was designed for the challenge and obtaining the raid weapons. But there's no story whatsoever to relate them.

And having the devs say they designed it for the relic is enough for that. Just because the story wasn't made so doesn't contradict that they designed a content to be the mean of obtaining the relic. Just like my savage example. The content was designed to be the mean of obtaining the weapon and gear. There's no need to have a story to tie it or require it to be useful to do said content. But even then, the eurekan relic has a big advantage in Eureka when you upgrade it to Physeos and gain additional elemental damage. A lot are now light farming in pagos easily with the huge damage gain from Eurekan relic and gear (I soloed the bunny fate in pagos when 30 people were in the instance. And at another point, a tank that had no elemental gain died to the bunny fate boss while the boss barely can do significant damage to me).

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Imagine if SE was to stop making new contents and expansions and instead just kept adding rewards to force you to farm old content, is that going to prolong the life of the game the same way as if they added new content for these rewards? Of course not (assuming both the old and new content are good). And hence why both are not comperable.

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Its the other way around. The raid is design to add content in the game, the weapon is a reward to make it worth doign more than once. You have a pretty strange way to see how the game work, are you aware that getting weapon isn't the core feature and close to nothing is build around the gear itself outside of curency and upgrading system. One more reason why I can't believe they put that much effort and ressources in a weapon that wasn't that much popular for the core audience of the game especially when the weapon is just a side quest in the content "designed for it".

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

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1) So are we going to say that level 3 sheep in La Noscea are designed for ARR and HW Relics because "You need the exp"?

Also, the Relic itself doesn't actually need the experience, you only need the experience to progress through the story which unlocks Gerolt.

2) So are all ARR FATEs and HW FATEs designed for their Relics too?

3+4+8) So you're telling me that you can do FATEs and have a chance to get an item that is necessary to progress your Relic?

I wonder if I've seen that mechanic exist in this game before... :rolleyes:

6+7) Light farming. Brand new mechanic guys. Never been used before in the entire game and can never work outside Eureka. /s

9) Wow, you can do a Specific Dungeon and get items for your Relic! Wow, colour me impressed, I'd never thought I'd see the day when that was the case!

Also note: You can buy Logos off the MB. :rolleyes:

As I said before, exclusively locking progression behind the content doesn't make the content "Designed around the Relic". Since it's literally the same as arguing that any of the content that was usable with previous Relics was "Designed around the Relic".

Especially given that the things that Eureka gets you to do, are almost exactly the same as with previous Relics, only instead of being done in the natural Overworld or via Duties accessed via DF, it's done exclusively within Eureka.

An example of a reward being designed around some content would be the PotD/HoH rewards. Where you go into the Unique Content and utilize a Unique Mechanic within that content (Finding Silver Chests to level up your gear) in order to earn the reward. Or another example is with difficulty of content being designed around, such as how the Savage item level gear comes from the Savage content which is uniquely more challenging than the normal variant.

Just putting in half the effort just to limit the ability to access something to a specific piece of content as opposed to any other similar content (Such as Overworld FATEs or DF Duties) isn't designing around that piece of content.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

1. How the xp is even related to the relic, because at this point so does your chocobo and the mint herbs you fetch for Minfilia back then because you can't go to Eureka if you didn't do it, can you ?

2. Atma drop from fate, so fates was designed for the relic. said no one ever.

3. Wich aren't related outside of being a roadblock and the only meaning to even bother with it, once again isn't a proof of anything. Could have been an aftertough. "What do we do for them to look for logogram ? lets lock the relic behind it".

4. same here, prove nothing.

5. I'm pretty sure I can, but let say I can't. How it is related, I don't know, do you ?

6. So does PvP for precedent relic, PvP isn't designed with the relic in mind.

7. See answer n°2.

8. Go back to answer n°2 once again.

9. Wich is the only step related to the content and the only step that actualy don't serve any purpose outside of Eureka and maybe the only step deserving to stay an exclusive Eureka step even in future content, it don't add any non eurekan stat to it, totaly optional and I'm totaly fine with it. But once again, don't prove anything, could have been an argument if it was a thing back in anemos but it wasn't.

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1. Exp is required to get fate items you cannot have a relic at elv 1 as min elv required is elv59 also these fates are designed differently you do not get rewarded with the items if your 2 levels below exp and level very much matter more here with regards to its system

2. my edit comment covers this atmas were rectoactively added after those open world fates weren't designed for the relic from the offset Eurekan fates were

3/4. Oh no it is not like they never added items that were apart of the relic process before cough books cough unidentifible cough thavnarian mist. If an item is needed for the relic the devs had to design how to obtain these items with regards to the relic

5. My friend got to Pyros for the 380 gear having only done an Anemos weapon and he was not allowed to purchase the gear despite having gotten all 50 abilities it is required to have the Pagos elemental weapon to get the Elemental gear

6. Are you forced to do PvP? i don't think so you are forced to kill basic mobs in Eureka for light though

7/8. see answer number 2 these systems were there in their zones day 1 these systems had relic in mind day 1

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Its the other way around. The raid is design to add content in the game, the weapon is a reward to make it worth doign more than once. You have a pretty strange way to see how the game work, are you aware that getting weapon isn't the core feature and close to nothing is build around the gear itself outside of curency and upgrading system. One more reason why I can't believe they put that much effort and ressources in a weapon that wasn't that much popular for the core audience of the game especially when the weapon is just a side quest in the content "designed for it".

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Imagine how many would bother doing ultimate raids or savage if they gain nothing but challenge for doing it (second coils savage?). With no rewards, a majority wouldn't bother with a content if they knew it will just be nerfed when unsynced. I for one wouldn't bother if there's no reward, since I pug my way through all savage content. So I'm not gonna waste hours of progging if it's only for completing it if I know I'll just do it a lot more quicker unsynced.

In Eureka, you don't only obtain the relic weapon. You get full gear sets, mounts, minions, glamour, hairstyles and furniture and lots more. So it fits a big content to have all these rewards with it. But the main purpose of it was to be the mean of obtaining the relic. Furthermore, if you're only interested in the relic, getting it is a piece of cake and also in a very short time compared to the previous way.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

As I said before, exclusively locking progression behind the content doesn't make the content "Designed around the Relic". Since it's literally the same as arguing that any of the content that was usable with previous Relics was "Designed around the Relic".

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See the difference between ARR after 1st step and HW questline vs Eurekan relic is Eurakan stuff interacted with the relic day 1 of each release whereas the other 2 weren't baring ARR step 1 No fate in ARR gave you atmas before you had a Zenith weapon, nothing in dungeons/trials/raids/materia interacted with you in regards to the relic, except the 2 ARR trials specifically designed for the ARR relic outside those 2 nothing in 2 full questlines, until you were on the appropriate step these were all designed completely for a different reason 1st and then relic item/light was slapped in there as an after thought. Eureka is designed differently most of the systems in there interact with the relic in 1 way or another from the very beginning, Eureka has been designed more for the relic than the previous 2 relic questlines had combined

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

With no rewards, a majority wouldn't bother with a content if they knew it will just be nerfed when unsynced.

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Why bother getting gear when it's just going to be nerfed when next expac drops and you can buy vendor gear better than it. :rolleyes:

Content vs Rewards is a more complicated manner than "Item rewards = only reason to do content" or "Item rewards = incentive to do content more than once"

It's about finding the right balance. Content that is fun enough to keep people interested, and a reward that entices people to enter the content in the first place.

You can go more heavily towards the reward and force people through not fun content purely for the reward (Though, this breeds resentment). Or you can go more heavily towards fun content and have something exist purely based on people wanting to waste time there (This tends to make content less populated)

Also, the logic that Eureka needs to have the Relic reward as the carrot on the stick to get people to go through it is asinine, especially when by your own words "You get full gear sets, mounts, minions, glamour, hairstyles and furniture and lots more."

Literally, they could have "Designed" anything to be the reward for running through Eureka. Only this would have meant designing a Relic weapon AND an actual proper reward for Eureka (Though, full gear sets without having to farm duties is a significant draw for some people)

"Why grind though?" is the common question in response. Often implying that the heavy amount of grinding necessary for obtaining the Relic in Eureka is:

1) Necessary to have in such large amounts

2) Couldn't be directed towards something else (For example, they could have made leveling focus more on doing FATEs and Chaining as opposed to grinding these things for Crystals/Light)

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

See the difference between ARR after 1st step and HW questline vs Eurekan relic is Eurakan stuff interacted with the relic day 1 of each release whereas the other 2 weren't baring ARR step 1 No fate in ARR gave you atmas before you had a Zenith weapon, nothing in dungeons/trials/raids/materia interacted with you in regards to the relic, except the 2 ARR trials specifically designed for the ARR relic outside those 2 nothing in 2 full questlines, until you were on the appropriate step these were all designed completely for a different reason 1st and then relic item/light was slapped in there as an after thought. Eureka is designed differently most of the systems in there interact with the relic in 1 way or another from the very beginning, Eureka has been designed more for the relic than the previous 2 relic questlines had combined

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That still doesn't mean it's "Designed" around it. Only that its implementation coincided with the release of it.

Given that Eureka was delayed in the expansion compared to the previous 2 Relics, this isn't that much different.

Like, if when they released Eureka they just made The Lochs FATEs give crystals while using your Antiquated 70 weapon it would have been the same thing.

To say nothing about how you can equally argue that much of Eureka is designed for leveling to get through the Eureka story (That doesn't involve the Relic).

You can go through Pagos without talking to Gerolt and getting the ability to farm for Light.

You can get Logos without having the Pyros weapon.

You can go through BA without having a Relic weapon.