Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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You may feel like people blow it out of proportion when it does happen, and

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Originally Posted by Miste

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you may feel it is not a common thing because you do not see it.

These are both fair points, but for one I rarely saw toxic behavior in PvP does that make it any more of an issue to certain players? Probably not. That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much. It is a great tool, I use to raid hardcore back in WoW pushing for world and server firsts, though I really have no desire nor commitment to enter a new raiding scene. I do understand the value the tool provides to further ones play. Still people do abuse it, and no matter how infrequent the two of you may feel it happens still does not chance the fact that said issues do happen to players, and for the players that it does happen to it is big issue that truly effects their enjoyment of the game.

Do I wish people had thicker skin and took things in stride? Yeah would make everything much easier, and we probably would still have chat enabled in PvP. Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them. I willing to bet it happens often to my friends cause they are far below avenge, I mean one of them sicks in tank stance and only uses their enmity combo, and yeah you do not need a meter to see that people are under-preforming, the meter just adds insult to injury. The easiest fix would be to make fflogs opt in instead of opt out, or make it so the data shown on the site is only your personal data. It would not fix the core issue, but like how the pvp chat bad did not fix the so called toxic pvp community at the very least it provided the illusion of it. Which is all a lot of people need.

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Originally Posted by Awha

That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much.

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I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

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Did not mean to infer that I wanted them to get rid of them, my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it, or when it does happen people blow it out of proportion. Though to be fair SE pretty much did that to the PvP community, that aside they should do something to either inform FFlogs to make them opt in instead out or make it so the data shown is only personal. As I said in my other post it would not fix much of anything, but at the very least it would offer the illusion of protection from harassment

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

I challenge you to find how many O4S clears there are with tanks staying in tank stance.

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Well if this is actually true then there needs to be some changes. Tank Stance exists for a reason and when it becomes useless balance is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Not because they're uploading them from public battle logs having been in the same party with you. It's like uploading a screenshot from your party chat.

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In which case you should be censoring names of others. Your example reinforces their point.

Data about me menkel schmenkel. This whole deal about "my privacy" is kind of out of proportion
FFLogs containing records of your performance is no different from a Youtube-Video or Twitch recording that incidentally has you playing your character in it, just in a more displayable/searchable manner. You don't see anyone asking you for your permission whether they can upload a gameplayvideo of a 24 Man or ExPrimal raid, just because you happened to be in that party.
These kind of demands are asinine, especially when you have the option to hide your character anyway if it bothers you THAT much. If it doesnt bother you that much, no harm gained.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

In which case you should be censoring names of others. Your example reinforces their point.

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Only on these forums, since they are the rules of these forums. But I am free to have, for example a personal blog or site where I upload my XIV party chat discussions or in game battle logs. It's similar to streaming a game: you're not just streaming your own character, but everyone you're playing with.

Well this thread certainly made me sit back and stare/research. Oddly enough FFlogs seems to be broken on my char (And I'm content with that :P ) - My 2 cents is this.
Tanks are supposed to tank. Period.
Healers are supposed to heal. Period.
DPS - need I say more?

If the tanks and healers can dps - great...bonus.

The only time this isn't the case - is if the following is true: Extra Tank on the field (like Raids/or multi Tank situations) - Party doing so well that healers are not needing to heal as much.
Now I can get Extremes/Ultimate having a unique situation where the tank needs to do something different. But in all honesty it depends on the party.
Bottom line - if you get yelled at for some stupid ass log saying abc and is not up to the standards of some random idiot....report them and walk away.
SE doesn't give a crap about what your logs say - what they do care about is you are not hindering the experience. So long as you are doing your job at its basic form - and the party is getting the job done...you should NEVER be kicked for that. What happens in the end is not known - but this much I have found out on my own. Perfectionism is not SE's MO - unless your doing Extreme/Savage/Ultimate that are seriously unforgiving - but that impacts everyone.

honestly I'm against this parser crap - It leads to opinionated elitist morons who judgmentally condemn random players. Yes - I don't deny that it can help greatly for players who need the help - but its akin to being utterly discriminatory. I have a mentor who uses one - and he's ALWAYS constructive. I'd say he's the exception to the rule. Unless you attack him - then he's got ammo lol. (very experienced and knows his stuff)

Thankfully I've not encountered this myself - I will say that being honest about "being a sucky player" up front tends to remove the tension - that way if you get yelled at...they are the idiots...not you.
I see this ALOT.

Not sure if what I said made sense....and honestly people who think otherwise can jump off a virtual cliff cause I play for fun and enjoyment...not for the speedrun addicts. (Pull more! (healer says this and promptly dies afterwards....yep..been there done that))

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Well if this is actually true then there needs to be some changes. Tank Stance exists for a reason and when it becomes useless balance is wrong.

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What? You don't need tank stance when the damage isn't that big. Auto attacks barely hits you for anything. There is TOO MITIGATION and TOO MUCH heal. Then you have the thing thats in between.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Well this thread certainly made me sit back and stare/research. Oddly enough FFlogs seems to be broken on my char (And I'm content with that :P ) - My 2 cents is this.
Tanks are supposed to tank. Period.
Healers are supposed to heal. Period.
DPS - need I say more?

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Each "role" is no more than "having point" on and the superior efficiency to do something. If that person can still do it, then because they are more efficient, you let them. You are not, however, free from concerns of party or personal survival just because you are not specialized for mitigation or restoration. Nor are a third or more of your abilities ornaments on a tank or healer.

It makes sense in a siege shooter that you'd have the guy with the shotgun or SMG breach. That doesn't mean he does nothing else. One guy you really don't want to have die first may be carrying the medpacks. That doesn't mean medpacks are his only responsibility.

Stop mistaking specialization for an exhaustive job description. Stop.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Well if this is actually true then there needs to be some changes. Tank Stance exists for a reason and when it becomes useless balance is wrong.

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Tank stance is not useless, we need it to build up emnity.
As soon as you have some Rage of Halones in (or the WAR/DRK version) you go to DPS stance.
When there is a tank bust you activate tank stance and a CD.
Sometimes it can happen that some crazy high DPS player is catching up on emnity, in that case you go tank stance again and use some more emnity builders then go DPS again.

If tanks had no tank stance then we wouldn't be able to do Omega/Ultimate Bahamuth/ Any other raid.

It's not useless.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Each "role" is no more than "having point" on and the superior efficiency to do something. If that person can still do it, then because they are more efficient, you let them. You are not, however, free from concerns of party or personal survival just because you are not specialized for mitigation or restoration. Nor are a third or more of your abilities ornaments on a tank or healer.

It makes sense in a siege shooter that you'd have the guy with the shotgun or SMG breach. That doesn't mean he does nothing else. One guy you really don't want to have die first may be carrying the medpacks. That doesn't mean medpacks are his only responsibility.

Stop mistaking specialization for an exhaustive job description. Stop.

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Learn to read posts in full before you start replying to them.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Learn to read posts in full before you start replying to them.

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They did. But I will ask you this question. Nobody dies, healers does more dps than both dps in a dungeon, care to explain why? You said it yourself; a dps job is to dps, yet they fail it because they are doing lower than the healer or in some cases tanks. So are you saying that the dps got carried because the healer managed to do 2 jobs at once? Or are you saying the dps is very bad? :)

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Tank stance is not useless, we need it to build up emnity.
As soon as you have some Rage of Halones in (or the WAR/DRK version) you go to DPS stance.
When there is a tank bust you activate tank stance and a CD.
Sometimes it can happen that some crazy high DPS player is catching up on emnity, in that case you go tank stance again and use some more emnity builders then go DPS again.

If tanks had no tank stance then we wouldn't be able to do Omega/Ultimate Bahamuth/ Any other raid.

It's not useless.

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No, it is useless unless you're still learning a fight or something goes horribly wrong. The mitigation from tank stance is unneeded and, as for enmity, shirk and shade walker go a long way to making sure you never need tank stance or even your enmity combo.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Disagreed, and I really don't care this assumption. Being a Tank does not make you the defacto leader. You control the flow just as much as everyone else, and the one with the greater experience should, in any situation, be the one holding the reigns.

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I personally agree with you. My statement was merely a jest towards the community at large. It's a comment echo'd quite frequently that it is the tanks responsibility to determine pace.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Everything you just listed is rather superfluous. Yes, you can say I learned more than a handful of things that day, good and bad. But I suppose it's a matter of the value of what was learned. If anything, I learned not to trust those people as much, yay. And "learning to mass pull" is a technicality, as you learn that when you learn to pull from the first time. You're merely applying your knowledge and tools expansively.

It was through that fear that I learned to play other jobs. I wanted to keep playing the game but avoid tanks so I learned a few DPS and even attempted healers. Fear can be just as much a constructive force as any other. If anything worthwhile I learned, it's that. But I will never want anyone to be beholden to my situation;

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All of this speaks to my point more than yours IMO. Yes it was a PAINFUL ordeal, but through that adversity you grew to be a better player and grew as an individual as well as raised questions about things you thought you knew/understood (quality of friends, their skill, your skill, etc.).

I would say I'm sorry for your struggles but I am not. It's led us to meeting and this discussion and I have learned a lot from you.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

We have no way to know if your conclusion is correct because we haven't played with him. We dont know his group. We don't (and can't possibly) have the full context of any log on there.

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Simply go review the logs. Don't make excuses about group, or his personality etc.. The logs contain every party member (so comp) and their rotations, key presses, buff/debuff uptimes, exact positioning on the field, as well as resource usage/generation down to the GCD.

I watched someone state an incredibly flawed statement and when reviewing their character it was fairly obvious that given their statement and their credentials that they lacked the necessary qualifications to make such a statement WITHOUT reproach.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The idea that you think you can dismiss someone (who I happen to also disagree with) on the basis of their fflogs page is asinine and just plain rude.

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I dismissed his statement, not him personally. I used data about him personally to do, but it was not a personal attack. Try not to let emotion cloud your judgment. I merely wanted to discuss WHY I felt the statement he made was not to be taken seriously by any readers and provided context as to why.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Well, this was unexpected. Earlier in the thread there was discussion that FFLogs could be misused to shame and harrass someone. Now, KaldeaSahaline has done just that. Without provication, she brought up Anguel's O1S log in what was a blatently obvious attempt to shame. Seems to have worked, since Anguel hasn't posted since. Let's look at Kaldea's reasoning...

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I stated an objective fact based on QUANTIFIABLE data. That is not harassment or shaming.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

...no, that sounds silly too. When in a debate, you attack the point, not the person. The only time the person is attacked is if the attacker is being petty, or finds the point to hard to attack. Honestly, bringing up their log to shame them was uncalled for and as I pointed out above, outright erroneous. And I'm happy to see you catching well-deserved flak over it, even from people that otherwise supported you. In using FFLogs to shame him, you have single-handedly embodied all the concerns raised about FFLogs earlier in this thread.

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To be fair, the amount of flak I got was about a 1/3th less than you get for each one of your posts lol.

I explained why his statement about what qualifies as a good tank was not to be taken seriously, because he himself was not a good tank. Was my analysis of his logs wrong? If so I will gladly apologize. Let me know.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

There are serval reasons why someones log is bad; group comp, uptime as melee (which is a tanks job as well, to keep the boss to melee as much as possible) ilvl etc. While that been said, there is only so much you can output and do while having all of that, the real thing you need is skill.

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All of those things are easily identifiable in logs so they're not reasons/excuses. I'll also echo this, a CONSISTENT 7th percentile player isn't going to be good with a better comp or a tank moving a boss a little less (which isn't really a thing in EX/Savage content).

Not tracking ilvl though is a huge detractor of FFLogs IMO. Agreed on the skill bit (and really this game's floor is astronomically high). All you need to do is push buttons as frequently as you're supposed too (they don't even need to be the right ones) and you'll be out of gray.

I don't compare logs of mine against people who kill bosses 2 and a half minutes faster. That'd be stupid. I don't compare logs that don't have a NIN if I do. This is basic log review 101 (I'll concede a large majority of FF14 probably don't know just how fancy and in-depth the tool really is, as evidenced by this thread).

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I was curious and had to look, but he died 1 time as well, so you have to count that too.

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Yes I am aware of that and accounted for that. He was dead at 9:12 and the fight lasted until 9:50. He was dead exactly 38 seconds which cost him exactly 98 DPS from death to kill, again all in the log and easy to identify. There's a ton more stuff I reviewed like buff overlap/uptime to determine what buffs he would have had (had he lived) and their previous interaction on his DPS to determine whether the total value would have risen, fallen, or stagnated until enrage (it would have fallen slightly btw).

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

From that point they now have to work out of the negative because ill fortune saw fit to have only their two really bad runs recorded and not a majority of their decent-good runs, and now it's a game of not just proving your worth, but now proving you're not shit. And most folks aren't so open-minded to give leeway to someone with shown bad records unless there is evidence that they have run more times than logged.

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Let's say you killed something 5 times, but only 2 of your worst logs made it up.

Logic tells me that not only are you (not you personally, you as in whomever) not a consistent performer, but you're not even a strong performer. Also, all you need a singular good log as the history page shows your historical best overall. So if you have 1 really good run and 3 bad ones you'll pass most PF checks, but I likely wouldn't recruit you based on performance consistency for like a static.

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Originally Posted by Taika

If they aren't aware of the logs, why should they care about them? Obviously they're not then excluded from the runs because of their logs either.

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This is one of the more important points. Most of the people enraged in this thread don't even set foot in Susano/Lakshmi EX so they aren't being excluded or harassed over this data anyway.

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Originally Posted by Taika

If a person is actively running Savage, what are the chances that (1) only their really bad runs get uploaded and (2) they're actually removed from parties because of those logs? Do you know of such incidents? Is there anyone in this thread, for example, who knows for certain (has seen parses) that they're generally doing much better than their super low logs show, and that they have been removed from groups because of this? It just seems so unlikely to me that a person would have this kind of terrible luck. And even if they would, like I said, it would be quite easy to fix simply by running the content and asking someone to upload the runs when the group is about to start.

So, for a scenario that seems to be really unlikely in the first place, and one that can easily fixed for a person who would happen to care about it, this seems like case of much noise (and forum drama) for nothing.

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Agreed wholeheartedly.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I just feel saying "you did less damage than your co tank, and less damage than me in another log while I had a really low ilvl, what's your ilvl? your post should be taken with a grain of salt" is a bit too back handed for me to really defend. The original post never intended that their mindset was correct or "right," just how they viewed it. There are plenty of ways to correct someone on their mindset or even address they do not understand their class fundamentals, and that wasn't one of them. It wasn't even proper correction or criticism at all. Just flat out addressing that someone performed worse. So while I agree with you, this definitely was not that case. Also, I know they weren't replying just to brag, I'm just saying that it could sound that way.

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It was not an intent to brag. My logs are up for anyone to look. I have my good days and bad days like anyone else. I don't make excuses for my mistakes (except that primetime east coast lag baby) and have a ton of room to improve.

I understand that my brevity ruffled some feathers and I am sorry I didn't word it more nicely because some people (not all) are having trouble discussing the actual content of my posts without being driven to emotional responses. I would liked to have avoided that and started off on a better foot.

Here's the bottom line though. He gave a incredibly flawed opinion that I used actual quantifiable data to measure his expertise on the subject. It's fine to comment without a command of mastery, but be prepared like all things in life, to be scrutinized in your position and defend it.

I could say something asinine like the best healers are ones that only heal and don't do any DPS. You could make a plethora of arguments either way to discredit/credit my statement, INCLUDING looking at lodestone and seeing that I don't even have a single max level healer. I still have some insight for sure, but, you could pretty easily refute my opinion based on my character and NOTHING would be wrong about it.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

This whole thread about FFLogs being a threat is funny enough but you know it's only taken seriously in a Savage/Ultimate context right? If all you do are your Alliance raids, EX roulettes, EX primals, you got nothing to worry about really. I wonder if all the animosity towards it stems from people actually knowing they could do more but make no effort to actually do more. So they get paranoid and blame logs on fights nobody even care about in a serious environment.

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100% on point.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

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Agreed on your other points.

Also was that me in that dungeon run? I vaguely recall a healer telling me that it was ok to pull after that (and I use that exact verbiage sometimes when DPS is so fucking awful that I'm #1/2 and the healer is the other one).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Telling someone that theyre doing poorly isn't harassment.

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100% true.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

Ok, I have no real dog in the pro/anti parser argument. But can I just say, it is very odd that you have to do this. You shouldn't have to sign into their site to opt out, you should sign into their site to opt in. I don't like the idea of data about me and my performances, being collected without my consent or knowledge. It is unsettling and creepy! I really think that they should switch over to an opt in model rather then collecting data without consent or even someone's knowledge that they are effectively being recorded in someway. I think that would make people a little less antsy about parsers and fflogs.

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Do you even do content that this affects you? It sounds like you don't if you're just hearing about it.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Well if this is actually true then there needs to be some changes. Tank Stance exists for a reason and when it becomes useless balance is wrong.

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Now this is a fair point to make and I largely agree personally. On the other hand though, keeping it for lower skilled players isn't a bad thing either. How would you re-work it or change it?

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Tank stance is not useless, we need it to build up emnity.
As soon as you have some Rage of Halones in (or the WAR/DRK version) you go to DPS stance.
When there is a tank bust you activate tank stance and a CD.
Sometimes it can happen that some crazy high DPS player is catching up on emnity, in that case you go tank stance again and use some more emnity builders then go DPS again.

If tanks had no tank stance then we wouldn't be able to do Omega/Ultimate Bahamuth/ Any other raid.

It's not useless.

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I use tank stance literally for 3 GCDs at most a fight, 0 if I am not pulling. I use it occasionally, but that functionality could easily be built into other skills nullifying the rare use my tank stance sees.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Aside from the spelling mistakes which I fixed I want to put this post in my signature, as a fellow tank main, lol. the primary job of a tank is tanking. DPS is a bonus. Yes even in raids.

Also one thing I noticed with FF logs is unless you've done TONS and TONS of ex primals and savage raids your numbers are going to be irrelevant and useless as they seem to have to be manually uploaded by people, which means the sample size will be too small for usage.

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While it's true that sample size is important, much like a first impression, a single log is incredibly telling.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

No, it is useless unless you're still learning a fight or something goes horribly wrong. The mitigation from tank stance is unneeded and, as for enmity, shirk and shade walker go a long way to making sure you never need tank stance or even your enmity combo.

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Yep.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I.

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I'm giving you credits for replying pretty good there. And yes, I do agree with most of what you said :)

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Do you even do content that this affects you? It sounds like you don't if you're just hearing about it.

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Actively? No. Casually with FC and friends? Yeah. But I do sometimes wander into PUGs or PFs to fill a spot for a friend and I never know if there is a parser running in the group or not. I've known about parsers for a good chunk of my time on FFXIV and honestly flip flop on my thoughts about them. But whether I do the content where they 'matter most' or not doesn't really negate the point at hand and recently (Thanks a lot due to comments way earlier in this thread...) I have started thinking about that side of FFlogs a little more seriously. How they effectively post data about you without your knowledge or consent and you have to sign into their site to say "Please do not post data about me without my knowledge or consent.", yeah that doesn't sit well with me.

I can't outright say it is anything illegal, not without doing a ton of research that would involve some...risky searches. (Cause googling "Is it illegal to X?" never seems suspicious...) But overall, yeah I think if they did switch over to an opt in model, i.e, only people who sign up with FFlogs and use the parser are the ones whose data is recorded and posted to a third party site for a bunch of other people to browse and scrutinize are the only ones whose data is recorded. Yeah, I think that would be a much better option. One that would most likely settle some people's grievances with this stuff. It would settle the harassment argument to a hefty degree, since only people who WANT to be parsed are being parsed and those who don't are left alone. As it stands now though? The whole thing is kinda...squicky to me.

Effectively what I am trying to say is, I don't care if you are using a parser for personal improvement but I'd really appreciate it if that thing for personal improvement only recorded data about you. I think the easiest way that could be fixed is if FFlogs were to inverse things, the default state for any character's logs would be set to private unless the user is fine with others looking at their logs and sets it to public. That would honestly be the easiest fix that wouldn't require an overhaul of the whole system. Buuuut if they wanted to be madmen, they could overhaul the system to only record people who sign up for logs. And at this point I'm rambling and should be working. Replies to this probably won't be replied to for a while. Have a lovely day all!

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Originally Posted by Awha

my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it

Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them.

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Well, to be honest, you aren't going to change my mind about this so there is no point in continuing to try really. If I haven't seen any of it in 4 years of playing it to me that casts a lot of doubt on how frequent it occurs and nothing you say is going to change my mind on this. The only thing that could change my mind would be if my experiences suddenly dramatically change in-game to seeing a lot of parser abuse against other players.

How am I pretending issues never happen?? I never claimed it doesn't happen. All I said was my experience and my opinion that it casts doubt on how "frequent" it is.

One player once a month is negligible and you are free you have your opinion that once a month is too much and I agree I wish it didn't happen at all of course, but this is the internet unfortunately and any MMO are also in this territory. You aren't going to be able to stop people from sometimes being jerks to each other parser or no parser. It would be awesome if we could stop it, but even the nicest people get angry sometimes. Human nature and all that.

If you play MMOs you kind of have to expect to come across some jerks sometimes. Not saying it doesn't suck we have to deal with it, but we do, and the best option is to report them. I totally wish we could all get along better, but if human history up till now has any indication this is an extremely hard thing to accomplish even if we advocate it.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

No? It's publicly available information

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Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Anyone in your groups or even remotely close to you in the game cans see the data that's aggregated by parsers and uploaded to FFLogs.

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Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

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The data isn't private once it's uploaded. If don't want people to see trash tier numbers then set yours to private. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

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If we want to get into technical and legal things here....FFlogs doesn't need "your" consent. They need SE's consent since all of FFXIV's data including your character belongs to SE, not you.

Nothing to do with FFXIV needs "your" consent since you do not own anything to do with FFXIV. You simply pay subscription in order to be allowed to access and use SE's intellectual property. Your subscription does not entitle you to claim ownership of anything in FFXIV and this includes your character and any data related to your character. Therefore your personal consent is not necessary at all.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

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How is it different from someone uploading screenshots of your party chat, screenshots of their battle logs including your numbers, screenshots of their character with your character in it, or a gameplay video of a fight including your character? How about someone streaming while they're playing Rabanastre, also showing (either accidentally or on purpose) your characters gameplay or something you perhaps say in chat?

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Originally Posted by Taika

How is it different from someone uploading screenshots of your party chat, screenshots of their battle logs including your numbers, screenshots of their character with your character in it, or a gameplay video of a fight including your character? How about someone streaming while they're playing Rabanastre, also showing (either accidentally or on purpose) your characters gameplay or something you perhaps say in chat?

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Pretty much every stream I've seen has chat covered up, same with screenshots.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Pretty much every stream I've seen has chat covered up, same with screenshots.

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And? What if it wouldn't be? Wouldn't make it against any rules or laws, apart from maybe specific rules on certain publication platforms (such as these forums: you can't publish other people's character names here). But there's nothing to prevent me from creating a site where I post screenshots of random party chats or battle logs.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

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So instead of improving you want to people not to see how you perform which they will eventually and you dont perform the way they want you to then what? Going to sit back and let them do it for You?

Completely off topic here, but I think I might have done something wrong in FFLOGs. Whenever I upload a parse to FFLOGs, they do not show up in Endgame Dungeon Rankings for Stormblood. Here is an example: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/CBWQXrbqg9fTD4jV (yes I know my DPS isn't that great).

Can anyone explain why I an not getting these to show? During HW I have been able to get the HW Endgame Dungeons to show rankings: https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/char.../2/#metric=dps

Thanks

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Well this thread certainly made me sit back and stare/research. Oddly enough FFlogs seems to be broken on my char (And I'm content with that :P ) - My 2 cents is this.
Tanks are supposed to tank. Period.
Healers are supposed to heal. Period.
DPS - need I say more?

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Dark Knight: Spam Unleash
White Mage: Spam Cure II
Dragoon: Spam Full Thrust combo

Okay! I've done all you've asked. Period. Now where is my participation trophy? :D

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Dark Knight: Spam Unleash
White Mage: Spam Cure II
Dragoon: Spam Full Thrust combo

Okay! I've done all you've asked. Period. Now we're my participation trophy? :D

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Yo stop, thats a whole combo. If you're doing anything more than Impulse Drive, you're being a tryhard. D:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Dark Knight: Spam Unleash
White Mage: Spam Cure II
Dragoon: Spam Full Thrust combo

Okay! I've done all you've asked. Period. Now where is my participation trophy? :D

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Joke's on your WHM, my SCH uses the /sit emote as she reads lewd magazines as my fairy slav--I mean, helps the party.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Snip. . .

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I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that. My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue. Like I said before I hardly ever saw abuse of chat during matches in PvP, most of it was done after the match. It did happen to players while we will never know how large of a player base was effect by this behavior all we know SE took action, and I do feel SE should do something about the toxic nature in PvE. I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Miste

If we want to get into technical and legal things here....FFlogs doesn't need "your" consent. They need SE's consent since all of FFXIV's data including your character belongs to SE, not you.

Nothing to do with FFXIV needs "your" consent since you do not own anything to do with FFXIV. You simply pay subscription in order to be allowed to access and use SE's intellectual property. Your subscription does not entitle you to claim ownership of anything in FFXIV and this includes your character and any data related to your character. Therefore your personal consent is not necessary at all.

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This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

I mean and if they are in the bottom 20% and wish to improve their play awesome, they can use the data and work on openers, rotations etc . . .

I just did an expert and I was actually so happy. The WHM I knew wasnt super confident on dpsing but they did!! DRG did crazy amount of dps same with the smn. The best part is we ran it fairly quick, we were already done with second boss when we only been 7min into the dungeon. I never expect anyone to play as good as they did, but honestly it's been a while I've seen melee dps aoe a lot, like the DRG did and a smn who actually use bane and aoe. This is something I love to see and honestly I was fine with how the WHM ACTUALLY TRIED to do some damage. Mad respect for that.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that.

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Please point out to me where I accuse you as such though? I never said that you want to take it away nor did I infer that in what I said. My recent reply to you is my opinions and it is a general opinion not based on pro or anti parser really.

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Originally Posted by Awha

My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue.

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Yeah, I feel that way, what's your point? I already said nothing you say is going to make me alter how I feel. So I already said you shouldn't bother trying. Four years is a long time and I personally know how active I have been so I have precedent for how I feel so yeah...again you are wasting your time.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

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It's silly to share my experiences and opinions in a discussion forum just because you don't agree with it? Okay, it's fine if you want to think that way, but I also have little reason to listen to you either. I can share my opinions as much as I want to I am not going to stop just because you don't agree with it. I am not undermining anyone I am just sharing my experiences and opinions like everyone else here, you included.

So no I don't think it is silly. My 4 years of experience playing this game and not seeing a single instance of parser abuse against another player casts doubt that this sort of thing happens frequently. My opinion. If it doesn't support your agenda then sorry, but I don't care, and I will share it all the same.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

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And? Where did I say you can't ask for that? Go for it. I never mentioned anything to do with fflogs opt in or opt out so how do you even know my stance on it? I actually don't even care. I am neutral. I don't care if fflogs is opt in or opt out so...again wasting time replying to me about it since I don't even care about it.

Like I already told you you are replying to a brick wall here and I openly admit it so that you don't waste your time. You aren't going to get me to change my opinion or get me to stop posting said opinion by trying to shame me into doing so by saying I am being silly and undermining people. It isn't going to work. I proudly believe that people blow parser issues way out of proportion and try to make a big deal out of something very minimal.

Apparently a friend of mine just did an expert roulette with a tank who had taken the teachings of this thread (and the others...) into their heart: they had been randomly AFKing throughout the run, first getting hate from stuff and then running next to a gate to afk while the rest of the party was killing stuff. Keep up the good work non-DPS tanks and healers, you're starting to gain influence! ;)

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Originally Posted by Awha

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

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Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Snip . . .

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The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone. I am not asking you to change how you view parser's, and I did not mean to say that your experiences as a whole are silly, what I should have said that it is disingenuous for you to feel as if someone that has faced such abuse is blowing how they felt out of proportion. You may feel as if I am wasting my time, but I do not since your position undermines those that have been harassed in our community. Since as a community the frequency of players getting harassed should not matter, the fact that it does happen should be enough for us as a community to band together to try and alleviate it as much as humanly possible. As I have stated numerous times, those of us that pvp have gone through harassment claims. I personally hardly ever saw people being toxic in pvp, still I never doubted the frequency or felt as if it may be been blown out of proportion. Since I do not know how a certain interaction may effect another person. What is a non issue for me may not be the same for another.

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion--I did tell them that, that did not go off very well. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from my perspective rarely happens.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

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At the very least if someone is asked for logs before joining the group they will now before hand what kind of group they are getting into, instead of being told at the gate like the OP that they are shit and GFTO. Since if it is opt-in they could not just look up the persons name to see if they have log, said the person in question will know to avoid that group all together without having their bubble popped. Though if they start to poke the bear and try to join said group without logs and under perform then at that point idk what to say. While harassment should be taken seriously there is a limit to a person patients and I get that.

While not in that post in others I have said that such a fix would not solve much of anything, such as the removal of chat from pvp, but at the very least it offers some protection. Which is more then what is offered now. You are right though nothing we can do as a whole will eliminate such behavior just like the how the removal of chat from pvp really did not solve much of anything, instead it simply made it less apparent, which is sometimes enough to keep the willfully ignorant at peace.

I am just basing this off of what I have seen happen to friends and guild mates and what I have done to players. I am impatient person and at times let my emotions get the better of me and become a toxic prick. I do not know if I am trying to create a safe space, but maybe a space where the willfully ignorant can retain their ignorance and enjoy the game. I guess that is a safe space. RIP really did not go in wanting to create a safe space, just wanted to point out that this does happen to plays, and to some players fairly often.

I guess the short of it is what I have been trying to say this whole time is that harassment is harassment, and no matter the frequency it should be taken seriously no matter on the subject or amount effected. Ignoring the issues because it may be impossible to solve just does not seem fair. From a personal perspective I do not agree with the chat removal from pvp, and in my time playing I rarely ever saw people being toxic, competitive yeah though that is riddled with bias. Still I respect SE for taking a stand and listening to the concerns of those that had them, no matter how small the sample size was.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone.

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I was not hostile or defensive in any of my responses until the most recent reply. My last reply, yes a bit, I was getting irritated because of you telling me it is silly for me to post my experiences and opinions.

So you are imagining a tone in my text that wasn't there at all until you posted things that could be seen as hostile. IE: calling it silly that I was posting my opinions and experiences and accusing me of undermining people. Most people would get a bit irritated at that and I am also still a bit irritated due to this reply of yours as well which I will explain below.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from what I can rarely happens.

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No I don't see and if you are using the definition of disingenuous to claim I am biased then....okay? I already said it is my experiences and my opinion which an opinion is always biased anyway, that's why it is an opinion, so what exactly are you trying to say?

To me it seems you are trying to say that if my opinions and experiences happen to be against someone elses then I shouldn't post it because I would be undermining their objective? Does that seem fair? I can't post my experiences or opinions in an open discussion on a forum because they happen to highlight the possibility that parser harassment isn't that widespread or frequent at all? I mean pretty sure everyone else here is openly sharing all of their opinions and experiences so why can't I?

Why would you even compare sexual harassment to parser harassment? That is not even remotely similar or on the same level at all so it is pointless to use that as an example. Also your view of me is incorrect. I would never say that to someone who spoke of harassment of any kind. I would listen and give them support and then advise them to blacklist and report to a GM. So you have made some severely incorrect assumptions about me likely because you know absolutely nothing about me.

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Originally Posted by Awha

So you may be neutral, but the very fact you are willing to say that peoples claims regarding such abuse are being blown out of proportion show otherwise. As a community we should try to foster some sense of camaraderie. I do not know

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I am neutral about your fflogs opt in thing, which I clearly stated that was what I was neutral about. I don't think you are fully understanding me because at this point you are making many incorrect assessments and not comprehending my point of view.

Not only did you misunderstand that but also the blown out of proportion thing. When I said that I meant that I believe people blow out of proportion the frequency aspect of it to try to make it into a bigger widespread occurrence than it really is. I did not say it was blown out of proportion when it comes to their personal feelings on it. I have already stated that I wish harassment would not happen because I know it hurts people.

Something that bears mentioning though is there are some people who will blow things out of proportion. People sometimes label things as "harassment" when they actually aren't. There is a difference between someone saying "you aren't playing very well" versus "you *insert swear words here* suck". One of those is harassment and the other isn't and some people fail to see the difference. I mean I've had a healer claim I was harassing her simply by trying to give them advice about Cleric Stance and I even said I was just trying to help and they still think I was "harassing" them.

My opinion is based on playing this game for 4 years and never seeing even one single instance of someone being harassed with a parser, so to me my experiences over those 4 years casts doubt on the frequency of parser abuse. That doesn't mean that I am disregarding people who had to deal with harassment, I know it sucks as I have also been harassed by other players numerous times (albeit not parser related), and I wish that sort of thing would not happen whether it be parser related or not, but as a community you have to realize it is nigh impossible to fully stop harassment in a MMO. I believe the occurrence is already very rare when it comes to parsers so there isn't really anything else that can be done and that is my opinion and it isn't going to change unless I suddenly start seeing a lot of parser abuse in-game.

I mean some of this I have already said in an earlier post so I honestly think you aren't taking the time to properly read my replies. It seems to me you have simply latched onto me because I posted experiences and an opinion you didn't like, so you have formed an incorrect judgement about the kind of person I am which is very much highlighted in your responses. Claiming I was hostile when I wasn't, inferring that I would disregard someone else's harassment if they personally told me the circumstances when I wouldn't do that, and inferring that I don't wish the community to be better to each other when I've already stated I wish we could make it better.

If you continue to reply just know I still admit to being a brick wall, at least when it comes to you, because I honestly don't have much respect for someone who seems to be attempting to silence someone elses opinion just because it happens to be unfavourable for their agenda and overall the way you are judging me as a person when you don't even know a single thing about me besides my one opinion that I feel parser abuse does not happen frequently due to my own personal large sample size experience. So after all this it is extremely unlikely I would listen to anything you say or care about your opinions on the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by Miste

. . . I honestly don't have much respect for someone who seems to be attempting to silence someone elses opinion just because it happens to be unfavourable for their agenda . . .

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Once again I am fine with your experience, I was once even in the same position when it came the toxic behavior in PvP. I for one rarely ever saw it, and each thread I saw about I did think to myself that they are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Nevertheless SE took action and tried to do something about, despite knowing nothing they do will ever stop said behavior. Also personally I do not like the removal of chat, but as I said before I do respect SE for taking action even if their solution does great impact those that still PvP. That is neither here nor there. Why would I compare sexual harassment to parser harassment? Because they are both forms of harassment. Pretty sure if I came to the forums stating my regarding sexual harassment ingame as something in 4 years of playing (which I have not played for 4 years) I have never seen. Don't you think more people would feel I am being disingenuous? As in pretending to know less about something then I really know.

Though for a moment let us leave that point aside you say that one player a month is negligible, fair enough where do we draw the line for it to be an issue? When it comes to harassment frequency should not be a factor at all. That is why I am focusing on that point, say if I said the frequency in which in-game sexual harassment is being blown out of proportion, and then chalked it up to human nature people make mistakes, get thicker skin, you do not want to deal with it do not log in etc . . . (Not saying this is your position at all) pretty sure most people would think I am bad shit crazy. That is what people who come to the forums to vent about their parser abuse go through.

Harassment is harassment I said in my post before does not matter on the subject or scope. As I have also said before you are 100% right we never solve the issue, there is no magical fix to make everyone nicer, but at the very least we can try to find way to minimize it even just a little. Look at this thread alone we have people asking the OP why they should carry her, when no where in her post she mentioned she wanted to be carried. So yeah I focused on your out of proportion part to see if you would be able to provide where the line should be drawn for action to be taken. Instead of simply double back on the frequency. Though I do get the sneaking suspicion that if I made the same post that started this back and forth in a threat regarding sexual harassment our roles would be reversed. Since the importance of harassment of any kind should not based around frequency.

Personally I feel as if all forms of harassment should be taken seriously, and never undermine by any degree even if it is simply in passing by saying I doubt how often it comes up, since fact of the matter frequency should never be a factor, point for some reason you keep glossing over. Your experience holds merit, and as a forum sure everything is entitled to their own opinion but just with the sexual harassment or any other form of harassment do you think many would agree with someone if they said I they doubt how frequent occurrence it is. Since that only goes to show they are missing the point. The fact it happens at all is the issue, and something should be done about it, not how often it happens.

So strangely enough your post is attempting to silence those that have gone through such abuse, so you are sort of doing what you claim you dislike. So maybe my claim of your being disingenuous was a little on point. Though you are right this is going nowhere.

i really should stop looking at these threads when I see um. They just... aggravate the unholy hell out of me. I can tank with out tank stance... Tank buster, WHAP. What the hell you stupid healer how come you didn't heal me... You were hit by a tank buster when not in tank stance. Or, Tank grabs lots of mobs and dies because as a healer I have to wait until tank has command of aggro before I do anything or... OOPS. I died by trying to keep the tank alive... STUPID HEALER WHY DIDN'T YOU WAIT FOR ME TO GET AGGRO. You had less then 20% health left. I didn't have a choice but to bene you. I been on every side of this argument. Job comes first. Everything else secondary. If the healer is having a hard time keeping you, THE TANK, alive while you decide to stroke your micro sized E-pen. Put tank stance on. Healers. Find a compromise. If their's a lul in damage being delt do a bit of dps. rather have mp incase the shit hits the fan. Dps... Go nuts. Do what you do best. Don't make it your priority. Make a point. Ok you have less then... 40% mp left. Ok time to start thinking about conservation tactics via letting your dps go and think about healing. Shut the fuck up you don't know how to play healer... Dude... I play every class. You want to give constructive criticism after you see me at work... Go for it. My job comes first. If I'm the tank. I'll tank. I'll stance dance during lul points after a tank buster and I know I have time to switch back to tank stance for the next one. As a healer.... I'll do both healing and dps tell my mp gets to about 50%.. Then.. I drop my dps for healing until my mp gets back to about 80% then I'll dps again. And dps.. Do what you do best. Flame em if you want that's just how I play. And so far. No one has bothered to contradict my style. If it works for you. Go for it. I just wish this whole toxicity of put your balls to the walls for dps would stop.

Did you just copy your post over from the other thread? Lol

Welp

This thread has successfully made think I should find friends. Maybe even a fc.

There's so much...muck--that's the word I'm gonna use, muck--in this thread, I can't even.

This thread taught me when you're pugging, its all business first. Via a third party global parsing website of all things. I'd like to be parsed for sure. But I'd like to be parsed by the right people. Genuine people. People who won't sugarcoat but also won't shut you out from the start. That's pug business all right. I'd like to be parsed by people you know and want you to succeed at things, just as you want them too. Have a laugh at it too.

Pugs can't do that. And that's fine. But its a bit cold.

This thread is cold as hell.

I see raid mentality leak into casual content. Some people will tell you that's good: it reduces the enabling of bad play. Some people will tell you its bad: its toxic or elitism.

All I know is when you put a stranger among other strangers, the only thing everyone can fall back to is efficiency. Everyone's got their own level of efficiency. Some pure hard numbers. Some just want the clear of the week. Some its 3 wipes and you're out.

When you got no time to waste, sometimes the process of elimination to find the efficient people for the job is having their resume's up for everyone to see first. Credentials. I don't find it good or bad, just...very buisiness like. But that's the pug world.

So for me, I don't mind doing better. I don't mind pushing the hard numbers. But I don't think I want to do that for pugs.

I want to do that for actual friends. A static full of friends for certain. Or an Fc. Avoid all that...gray stuff pugs seem to carry around when its time for raids. I don't want to be checking people's parses that I don't know for a game. Its too hard, if you catch my drift. For a friend, yes. Cuz I know that we would be well-meaning and we'd both seek to improve ourselves.

Sorry if this post sounds weird as well but re-reading this thread from start to finish made me feel like I just read a novel where pyrrhic victories and downer endings come abundant.