The issue nobody wants to address

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Originally Posted by Ryel

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?

Whelp I'm convinced.

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And its not like hes new either, hes been around since 2011, and still only heard it from a friend, or a friend of a friend. Sounds like a rampant issue to me.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

So common that not only have you not experienced it yourself so your evidence isn't even anecdotal, but you're instead relying on third party testimonials?
Whelp I'm convinced. No offense but if you're trying to provide a point saying how the addition of parsers would breed toxicity, saying the equivalent of "Some guy in my FC said someone in Ex roulette was being mean" isn't going to make your point.

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He already said he talked to many people who experienced it. I don't see how "only he himself but no one else" is a better argument than "many people he has talked to".
So yeah, if it makes you happy: I experienced it myself. AND talked to many many people who experienced it, too. More convincing? Probably not, since you don't want to get convinced in the first place.

But since you wanted to hear an anecdotal story, here is one: I was called out on my dmg very rudely after we wiped in a fight in which I got targeted all the time by AoEs. I'm a BLM, meaning movement equals close to no dmg dealt. it was simply bad luck, the AoEs could have targeted someone else, but they didn't. I tried to explain that and got either ignored (we only care about hard facts and the facts say your dmg was the worst out of all the dps!) or told to just ignore the AoEs and get hit, they'd heal it away.
I did what I was told and actively BECAME A WORSE PLAYER by staying in AoEs I could have moved out of but hey, of course my parser numbers skyrocketed :eyesroll:
Only did the healers NOT heal me, so I ended up dying and not dealing any decent dmg anyway.
In other situations in the same group when I wasn't targeted by the AoEs and my dmg was fine just like that, the tank forgot to grab the adds and I got targeted trying to save the healer and died too.
In the end, I was the one getting berated, insulted and kicked, because the parser only showed the numbers - me dealing less dmg than other dps - not that others ignored the fight's mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

And its not like hes new either.

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It just means I have never been personally harassed about my DPS, Tanking, or Healing abillities.

But hey I try to party with friends whenever possible anyways to avoid the duty finder in itself. Doesn't mean I've only heard of it from a "Friend of a friend" I've had many company members experience this and I trust their opinions. A full party parse even in it's best scenario does little if anything to help the hillarious situations you run into in the duty finder.

Beyond even my company I hear of it, I'm a social guy just because you don't think it happens doesn't mean it does.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

HIt's a completely unfounded fear.

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While I have my problems to believe this just by knowing how people abuse numbers to talk down/flame on others in other games I think this whole discussion will never come to an end if we don't give it a try. Let's say put it into the game for a set time like 3 months or something and see how it turns out and decice afterwards to keep or remove it.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It just means I have never been personally harassed about my DPS, Tanking, or Healing abillities.

But hey I try to party with friends whenever possible anyways to avoid the duty finder in itself. Doesn't mean I've only heard of it from a "Friend of a friend" I've had many company members experience this and I trust their opinions. A full party parse even in it's best scenario does little if anything to help the hillarious situations you run into in the duty finder.

Beyond even my company I hear of it, I'm a social guy just because you don't think it happens doesn't mean it does.

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Your ability to put words in mouths here is awesome. Not a single person has denied that there is the odd person who would abuse it. I wonder how many times that has to be repeated, the list of obvious things that need to be repeated is ever growing.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Despite the fact that it's a very common occurance? I've never experienced it myself but I've talked to enough people about how pushy people can get when throwing parse numbers around without even understanding the context of the numbers themselves..

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Please re-read your exact words, put in the context of you being around for four years.
Does Very Common fit, in any way, when you put those two pieces of information together?

If it did, you would have run into it many times with even casual use of DF and PF, regardless of if you commonly run with mostly friends.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

He already said he talked to many people who experienced it. I don't see how "only he himself but no one else" is a better argument than "many people I've talked to".
So yeah, if it makes you happy: I experienced it myself. AND talked to many many people who experienced it, too. More convincing? Probably not, since you don't want to get convinced in the first place.

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Convince me of what? That the addition of a public parser to FFXIV is suddenly going to raise the levels of player toxicity through the roof and will bring an end to our oh so friendly community? The same community that has no issue harassing and kicking healers and tanks when they don't play up to par but expect playing DPS to avoid accountability?

Why are tanks and healers held accountable for their play but DPS aren't?

41 pages into this thread and not a single person has answered that question, it's been asked by multiple people multiple times but instead the counter argument is always "But... toxicity!!!!"

Offhand i can think of a few MMORPGs on the market that either allow, include, or make use of DPS meters through either in-game features or add on support:

Everquest
World of Warcraft
DC universe Online
Star Wars: The old Republic
Lord of the Rings Online

Many of them have been around far longer and it's already been shown that apathy is the largest response to public parsing, not toxicity. Maleviction posted a video talking about this, i suggest you watch it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

But since you wanted to hear an anecdotal story, here is one: I was called out on my dmg very rudely after we wiped in a fight in which I got targeted all the time by AoEs. I'm a BLM, meaning movement equals close to no dmg dealt. it was simply bad luck, the AoEs could have targeted someone else, but they didn't. I tried to explain that and got either ignored (we only care about hard facts and the facts say your dmg was the worst out of all the dps!) or told to just ignore the AoEs and get hit, they'd heal it away.
I did what I was told and actively BECAME A WORSE PLAYER by staying in AoEs I could have moved out of but hey, of course my parser numbers skyrocketed :eyesroll:
Only did the healers NOT heal me, so I ended up dying and not dealing any decent dmg anyway.
In other situations in the same group when I wasn't targeted by the AoEs and my dmg was fine just like that, the tank forgot to grab the adds and I got targeted trying to save the healer and died too.
In the end, I was the one getting berated, insulted and kicked, because the parser only showed the numbers - me dealing less dmg than other dps - not that others ignored the fight's mechanics.

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That's unfortunate, did you report them?

I'm sure others can come in and give anecdotal stories about how they were harassed or kicked or treated rudely for any number of reasons. I remember out of the two times i was kicked from a dungeon one was because i didn't do a full pull and clear of the first room in Aurum Vale as PLD back when i was farming relic weapon drops, not only was i not even asked to pull the rest of the mobs but i was cursed out, called names and kicked.

It happens.

Players will harass and berate each other for any number of reasons, simply because they can. When they do however feel free to report them to GM's as that's what they're there for.

Nobody is denying that it will happen on occasion, they are however saying it has been proven to not be as common as many would have you believe, which is what my reply to the earlier comment was making light of.

EDIT: For the sake of full disclosure the other time i was kicked from a dungeon was in Copperbell (Hard) as PLD (also for relic drops) when the healer decided i wasn't pulling as fast as they wanted and grabbed the entirety of the next room while i was fighting something else. I sat there and watched him die, it was hilarious and worth the kick.

I wonder what would happen if the entire playerbase started putting in as much effort as the average df person and nothing would ever be cleared again.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

I wonder what would happen if the entire playerbase started putting in as much effort as the average df person and nothing would ever be cleared again.

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Things would get nerfed. But this would be another interesting social experiment - instances would still get cleared, but they would require many, many wipes till the stars align. People play to have fun, could fun survive all the wipes? I wonder how the toxicity would change after that.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

You may think that some people are just poor uninfomred souls but I guarnatee you a good majority of them are just facerolling because they know you are never going to see them again in content. The best enforcement of people needing to actually know there job and play the game is responsibillity the duty finder works against this. Being known as the guy who just wont listen to advice on how to be a better player is worse than having your numbers shown for strangers to look at for 10-15 minutes until they never see you again.

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The whole reason for adding a parser is to make it easier to see when a player isn't up to snuff. At the moment, those players can hide behind the other DPS. If a DPS check isn't being met, I don't really have an easy way to see whether it was the MNK, DRG, or both that was half-assing it. If I can see a player is causing problems (Note, CAUSING PROBLEMS, not if they're just a little bit behind), then I can attempt to coach the player and, should that fail, kick and replace them just before the final boss so they spend all that time and don't even get most of the tomestones or roulette bonus. And if people do that enough times, they do get a reputation.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

No, and this is the misunderstanding that you and many other posters keep having.

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Well, my reply basically centred around "if you have a damage dealer of the same level as the tank example you gave, you REALLY don't need a parser to notice said damage dealer" -- which is not really a misunderstanding. Would a parser help said damage dealer (or tank)? Maybe, maybe not. Will shouting abuse at them help? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

I'm not saying it's fine to go into DF with a level 15 weapon and caster gear on a DoW in Brayflox, or resort to auto-attacks while watching netflix. Just the same as I don't approve of afk-scholars just putting /follow on one of the party members and letting their fairy deal with everything -- the only times I'm okay with that is if the scholar has a "shit brb" moment and uses that (in early dungeons, of course) to avoid holding the entire party up while they deal with whatever RL problem that cropped up. And yes, that assumes it IS just a 'brb' and not 'afk for the rest of the dungeon'. But in my experience, when it comes to cases like that, the damage dealer is more likely to get kicked, because "we'll get a new one in ten seconds", whereas a poorly performing tank or healer has more leeway because it'd take longer to replace them.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Stop with these analogies, please. When you queue up for something in this game, you're making a choice. No one is forcing you to participate like a required P.E class in school

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Which I did comment on later on in that segment, how you're required to participate and can't opt out, the same way people can opt out from DF -- or leave a duty once you're inside if you don't like the party members you've been thrown together with. And I didn't intend for the different 'skill levels' in said sport to be the exact same in FFXIV, I merely wanted to point out that there are different levels of skill, from excellent to poor.

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Originally Posted by Odett

You've been playing this game for many hours to get to level 60, so it can't possibly be too much for me to hope that you're able to carry your own weight and have some understanding of how your skills work whenever you decide to participate in a dungeon.

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But someone still levelling their first class and doing, say, Toto-rak, hasn't been playing for that many hours, yet some people in DF seem to hold them to the same standard as a level 50+ player. Someone might have a level 50 healer, but are picking up their first tank or dps class -- or vice versa. People might have taken a long hiatus from the game and are just returning and still rusty. The point of my analogy (and pretty much the entire post I made) was basically, "People have different skill levels, and trying to force them all to operate at the same level is impossible, and heaping abuse on those who can't is pointless -- and likely to get you in trouble if it gets reported."

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

...you say "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score."...

...to which one of the other players yells "Hey! don't pick on him! He can play how he wants! Elitest scum!"...

...and the person kicking the ball responds "Yeah, I'm the one carrying you anyway!"...

That is what the thread is actually about.

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And in those cases, the fault lies with the person ignoring the advice. I'm certainly not arguing that. But more often than not (in my experience), it's the 'advice-giver' who starts out rudely.
There's a huge difference between, "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score," and "Hey, idiot, get the ****ing ball to the goal already, L2P noob!"
In the first case, a parser might help in a few cases, while in other cases the person would just continue to ignore advice given until they were kicked from the team/party. In the second case, a parser wouldn't help once the argument is already started.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

And in those cases, the fault lies with the person ignoring the advice. I'm certainly not arguing that. But more often than not (in my experience), it's the 'advice-giver' who starts out rudely.
There's a huge difference between, "Umm, hey, we are supposed to take the ball to that net down there and score," and "Hey, idiot, get the ****ing ball to the goal already, L2P noob!"
In the first case, a parser might help in a few cases, while in other cases the person would just continue to ignore advice given until they were kicked from the team/party. In the second case, a parser wouldn't help once the argument is already started.

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Tbh, by the time a player reaches level 60, its no surprise people might be a little exasperated with them for not playing well. Also, if the issue weren't so prevalent, maybe people would be more forgiving.

The simple fact is, the game relies almost exclusively on dps for encounters, and there is no way for a player or group to have a metric of their dps. Do you not think thats even a little strange sounding?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

That's the thing I am interested in - convenience. There is also reason why so many tanks and healers do not play with randoms - out of convenience.

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I don't know where you got the idea that tanks and healers don't play with randoms, but they do. Almost every FC member that's a tank or healer does DREX on the daily, even when one of them is a dedicated crafter. Every friend of mine who is a tank or a healer (or both) has and will always use DF. As I said, it's incredibly convenient so "Why not?". There may be a few who do not use the Duty Finder, but that applies to all roles, DPS included. The problem being that there isn't enough tanks or too many DPS. I couldn't care less though early on. As for the later levels, DREX pops within 5 minutes and Alexander usually less than 5 during primetime as a DPS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Elazu

I wonder what would happen if the entire playerbase started putting in as much effort as the average df person and nothing would ever be cleared again.

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There are times where I get the urge to do that myself when I get a DPS doing sub 600 in almost full i200 gear, and a Warrior doing 300 or less DPS and not applying Storm's Eye either (or applying it at random). I'd be punishing myself too, so I'd rather not. But it is funny the people who go in with "It's Duty Finder, I do what I want" mentality, imagine if everyone shared that mindset? I do feel bad for the Healers that can end up with both a bad tank and two bad DPS. =l

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Tbh, by the time a player reaches level 60, its no surprise people might be a little exasperated with them for not playing well. Also, if the issue weren't so prevalent, maybe people would be more forgiving.

The simple fact is, the game relies almost exclusively on dps for encounters, and there is no way for a player or group to have a metric of their dps. Do you not think thats even a little strange sounding?

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If only this behaviour wasn't also directed against people still levelling and learning the game, I'd agree with you completely.

I've never said I'm against parsers, but it does worry me a little that it might put more focus on competing against your team members instead of cooperating with them to take down the boss in front of you. Especially since I'm a bit leery when it comes to new features in FFXIV... *coughhuntscough*

(I'm also not that happy about this increased focus on DPS checks... I'd much prefer difficulty to be raised through mechanics than through sheer DPS.)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

But someone still levelling their first class and doing, say, Toto-rak, hasn't been playing for that many hours, yet some people in DF seem to hold them to the same standard as a level 50+ player. Someone might have a level 50 healer, but are picking up their first tank or dps class -- or vice versa. People might have taken a long hiatus from the game and are just returning and still rusty. The point of my analogy (and pretty much the entire post I made) was basically, "People have different skill levels, and trying to force them all to operate at the same level is impossible, and heaping abuse on those who can't is pointless -- and likely to get you in trouble if it gets reported."

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Oh come on! You know full well no one here is on about abusing new players in low lv dungeons, if you are seriously trying to use that as an argument i question your intelligence and contribution to this thread. It shouldn't need to be said we are talking about the lv 50+ section of the game! Even a bad player can learn how to play in those 50 lv's the games basic rotations are clearly labelled for those who care to even read their tooltips.

We expect players to perform the appropriate amount based on their current level if you are lv 60 and doing lv 50 damage you are a clear detriment to whatever content you are joining because the game is designed to be completed at the appropriate amount of performance excepted at that level and that item level! The game demands certain levels of performance from players, not just us players!

The point is by that point in the game there is no legitimate reason to be playing so bad short of a physical disability, even then i know a few players who can perform perfectly within acceptable levels with a disability.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

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I did say many, not all of them. It's great that your friends are good enough to use DF. There probably aren't that many who do not use it - they just use it as DPS role. My point was focused more towards bad and good players. If you are good tank or healer, after week of using PF instead of DF, you should have full friend list of dps who would do content with you, and whose performance would match your own. Combined with longer lasting relationships, players would then be able to form premades, or join DF with at least few new dps friends, which would decrease the amount of "free" tanks and healers in DF. I admit, it is my assumption, but that's what experiments are for - to prove or disprove assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

If only this behaviour wasn't also directed against people still levelling and learning the game, I'd agree with you completely.

I've never said I'm against parsers, but it does worry me a little that it might put more focus on competing against your team members instead of cooperating with them to take down the boss in front of you. Especially since I'm a bit leery when it comes to new features in FFXIV... *coughhuntscough*

(I'm also not that happy about this increased focus on DPS checks... I'd much prefer difficulty to be raised through mechanics than through sheer DPS.)

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I would counter that these issues already exist, regardless of parser use. And that the parser is not the cause of them. When you get down to it, people already abuse people, is it really that bad if they can add a number to that abuse, while on the flip side, people who are unaware of their poor performance, or just how poor it is, will have the ability to see roughly where they stand.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I would contend that these issues already exist, regardless of parser use. And that the parser is not the cause of them. When you get down to it, people already abuse people, is it really that bad if they can add a number to that abuse, while on the flip side, people who are unaware of their poor performance, or just how poor it is, will have the ability to see roughly where they stand.

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This. One of the reasons for all the hate parsers get is that it would make it difficult to stay ignorant - ignorant to one's own performance and ignorant to performance of other players. People would feel bad about their "numbers" being a lot worse than numbers of somebody else. Players would demand overal standard to be raised. DPS role would no longer be without responsibilities. I bet part of player base is scared of responsibility due to their bad experience while sucking at tanking/healing - let's face it, the more somebody sucks the more probable it is that they would encounter players with expectations and attitude. Now dps role is free of this. They can enjoy the ride no matter their performance. It is hardly surprising that not everyone is willing to give up this privilege.

Right now healing and tanking has too much responsibility in comparison to dpsing. With introduction of parser we may see things like queue times decreasing, because there are players who do poor job when it comes to dpsing, but would be good tanks/healers. Right now the difference in responsibility is putting additional pressure on the tanking/healing roles which discourages players from doing them, when the option to play "blame safe" dps role is available.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Excuse me? What is your problem here? As it happens my son - who plays and enjoys FFXIV greatly - is quite impaired, he's autistic (high function), severely ADD and has major fine motor skill issues - among other impairments to his capability. So I know exactly what I am talking about and I'll happily represent his interests and those in the same boat as him. I think you should be taking back your nasty little comment and perhaps rethink your attitude.

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I'm autistic(high function) and I can do atleast 90% of my class's maximum potential across 5 jobs and do end game raiding. I'm also very pro parser and hate all these lazy scrubs I've been carrying since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

I wonder what would happen if the entire playerbase started putting in as much effort as the average df person and nothing would ever be cleared again.

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You can have plenty of seats with that nonsense. Unless you've done DF groups with EVERYONE in your data center, that statement is about as asinine and insulting as it gets.

You and others on these forums need to stop acting as if you're the only ones who know this game inside-out.

I've noticed multiple problems when I pay attention to under performing players.

1. They press buttons as if they have a 5-10s gcd.
2. They don't know what weaving is.(saw a dragoon use power surge+jump+spineshatter+dragonfiredive back to back without touching a single gcd.
3. Don't even know what their abillities do and how they affect one another(ice mages)
4. Fail to use Dots and maintain them.(probably assume they are not worth using)
5. Unnecessary movements.(positionals and hazard zone avoidance)
6. Failure to move at all.(Positionals and hazard zone avoidance)
7. Abillity to make good judgment.(Using touch of death on a mob with 5% hp that is being focused down.)
8. Netflix.(I wish I was joking)

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

I'm autistic(high function) and I can do atleast 90% of my class's maximum potential across 5 jobs and do end game raiding. I'm also very pro parser and hate all these lazy scrubs I've been carrying since 2.0.

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I'm happy for you that you are capable of so much. I've worked with people with autism (allover the specturm of severity and symptom), CP, neuropathy, anxiety, and OCD among other issues; I'm extremely well aware of the range in capabilty, and especially in dealing with social interaction. The vast majority of the people I have met or worked with in this regard have difficulty dealing with any social interactions that are even remotely confrontational, and some won't interact beyond superficial greetings and pleasantries, and that is among those who will interact socially at all. The point being, everybody has different capability both in terms of playing and in terms of interacting.

It's great that you are able to cope with and overcome the challenges of life with Autism. Please also note that most people haven't got a clue that Autism is a specrtum disorder that ranges in both symptom and severity, and therefore many people don't understand that your experience isn't typical of Autism in general and is not typical of others.

BTW calling people lazy scrubs is really not a very tolerant way to behave, and considering how most people in general treat kids with any developmental disability, and the words that they use to describe them, I'm disappointed to see you using that kind of language.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The funny thing is people think the terrible dps are just poor uniformed souls who just need to be forced to see how bad they are. Parsers would magically solve the problems of terrible people in duty finder.

The reality: almost nobody you see that's a bad dps tank or healer with a bad attitude cares what you think about their rotation or parse numbers. They are using the duty finder and mashing to victory because they know there is little to no back blow to not doing your job.

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Exactly the core issue. Ignoring the numbers element of this all, if you consider Duty Finder and grouping in general, the lack of feedback in the form of a reputation is a problem that covers many dimensions. If we had a reputation that others could see, then the consequences of our actions or inaction would matter. As it is with data center based DF the odds are that if you deliberately troll a group in DF, the largest and most permanent consequence will be getting kicked. Of course a system with both up and down votes is open to abuse, which is why we have commendations only.

However, commendations alone don't serve as a way of representing reputaion. Nor do they convey anything about capabilty in particular. What if after every DF run each player had a survey regarding others in the party and could award positive votes for general attitude and skill level. What is missing though is to know the scale of the vote. For example a player who ran 100 DF runs and got 50 positives would have the same apparent reputation as someone who had done 1000 runs andngot only 50 positives. So a reputaion score would need to be based on the number of positive votes weighted by the number of runs yhose votes were received over.

To combat apathy, give anyone that completes the server an extra tome as an incentive. Also, give two options, neutral feed back and positive, so that people won't just vote positive by default. This would ultimately need to be a scorethat was visible when people inspect or search for your character. It would become a reputation score for attitude and skill that follows you, even if you fantasia, change names and move servers, you repuation becomes a permanent thing that follows you. Negative votes are not part of this, they can be abused, and only runing content in DF contribute to your reputation.

This way, people might have an incentive to pay attention and not misbehave because there would be a consequence that we currently lack.

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Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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Agreed 110%.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

I'm autistic(high function) and I can do atleast 90% of my class's maximum potential across 5 jobs and do end game raiding. I'm also very pro parser and hate all these lazy scrubs I've been carrying since 2.0.

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I read the Bold and in all seriousness Im like " Alright Awesome! its great to see people who push forwards and overcome their obstacles with rising to the challenge. You should be a shining example to many "

Then I read the Underline and shake my head, question the last bit of my words, as well as other stuff...No one likes carrying but still come on lol

That conflict is real. Still Kudos

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

I've noticed multiple problems when I pay attention to under performing players.

6. Failure to move at all.(Positionals and hazard zone avoidance)

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LOL three BLMs in A1 today. 3 people getting hit with Photon Spaser...
Also, what are Alarums...

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Originally Posted by Anemone_Valesti

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There is nothing wrong with hating players that has been exploiting him. It might be even considered formidable that he decided to express the opinion instead of bowing his head and carrying them on in silence.

Personally I would frown myself if he called somebody "lazy scrub", but he isn't calling anybody names, he is being descriptive. "Lazy scrubs" means exactly that - lazy scrubs. Nobody else can get offended. Not to mention that "scrub" is still quite mild word in comparison to really hateful alternatives that some players like to use.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Agreed 110%.

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Really? You agree with this 110%, because three of the four statements made here are objectively false.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context.

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Well, no, parsers are more useful to those who understand the context. They are still useful as very rough numbers to those who don't. And can be used to help those who don't understand them.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Those people already use them.

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Ummm... console players....

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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The only thing they do is promote toxicity? The simple fact that they are a tool says the opposite. The only use for them is toxicity? So you must be one of the ones who doesn't understand the context?

The last part, not objective but subjectively for sure:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general.

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Force feeding? does that mean everything in game is force feed? It's not like you have to use it. Others will use it if you are holding the team from completing the objective, but look at it this way, if you aren't completing the objective, what does it matter if the team moves on and completes it without you? Or, must everyone fail because you can't complete it?
Or are you taking it that forcing the tool on the players is what creates toxicity? Well that would only create toxicity from players who didn't want it, wouldn't it? Players like yourself?

It seems like all of your problems can be sorted out by not pugging or not taking this game as a serious one. It's a casual game. They throw gear and levels right at you. Nothing's earned, everything's given.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

Nothing's earned, everything's given.

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Hmm could enlighten us as to how you had everything given to you while doing nothing? Last time I logged in and just stood there all I got was "updating your status to away from keyboard".

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

They throw gear and levels right at you. Nothing's earned, everything's given.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Hmm could enlighten us as to how you had everything given to you while doing nothing? Last time I logged in and just stood there all I got was "updating your status to away from keyboard".

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In his defense, the game might feel like that when one doesn't mind getting carried. ^.^

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Parsers are useful to those who can understand them in context. Those people already use them. Force feeding the tool down every players throats is a bad idea in general. It only promotes toxicity in the community in my opinion.

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tbh it wont solve the problem at all
say minimum gear lv are reach
if just wrong rotation or mess up during fight
they would eventually get it right, with or without it
for those plain lazy, given them number, they will just remain lazy

i use to enjoy a MMO
until the meter become so popular
the game community have change into hell
yes, there are player using it properly
but there are tons of players using it as a tool to mock, shame other ppl in the community

i have been playing SWTOR for ages and never using one of those meter after the horrible experience
i have tank, i have heal and i have dps in SWTOR, and i m doing perfectly fine


and yes it is a horrible and bad design when dungeon relied on DPS check
so if you using it, i m perfectly fine
but i do not hope it make into game officially
i dont do raid in FFXIV, i have no idea how many bad player you have met
when i run dungeon, i did see bad tank, bad healer, bad dps in Duty Finder
the chance i meeting 1 are very slim, and i honestly never meet 1 intentionally draw a party back
i met inexperience players, we wipe, but we discuss what goes wrong, and we try again

so if it is going to make into game, leave it in raid only
and no matter what
i wont change my mind after experiencing those horror
yes, i m sentimental and rather carry another player than seeing the "white terror" destroy the game i love again

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Really? You agree with this 110%, because three of the four statements made here are objectively false.

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You can disagree with me all you want. But I'm obviously not the only person with this opinion nor are you with yours, you tend to often point out that historically parsers haven't really caused issues for others. Let's also look at how many MMO's have put a parser INTO the game without leaving it as an application used at the users own preference. I've been in a few games myself and I've never seen such a system perhaps you could enlighten me to what games have been trailbazers in this field.

You are being as subjective as I am with your claims.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

You can disagree with me all you want. But I'm obviously not the only person with this opinion nor are you with yours, you tend to often point out that historically parsers haven't really caused issues for others. Let's also look at how many MMO's have put a parser INTO the game without leaving it as an application used at the users own preference. I've been in a few games myself and I've never seen such a system perhaps you could enlighten me to what games have been trailbazers in this field.

You are being as subjective as I am with your claims.

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DC Universe Online

By default every instance has a running meter that Displays:

Damage Done
Healing Done
Damage Taken
Power (MP) Restored

It can be brought up at any time and is publicly displayed.

Interesting. I wasn't aware any mmo had actually put it in game.

Haven't heard bad things about DCS community. But I haven't heard much so I could be mistaken. How are dps checks on it tight or is it purely a vanity thing?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

snip.

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The anti-parser crowd is arguing that parsers will have a huge effect on the amount of toxicity found in the game, but I don't believe that to be the case. There will likely be an increased amount of it, but only slightly. For one, this kind of toxicity already exists in the game, but instead of claiming "Lalafell Shrimp is a bad player" they'd claim "God, the DPS in this party are awful" when the reality of it is that there's only 1 or DPS dragging the rest down, but how are they supposed to know? Don't get me started on the amount of times I've seen a DPS lash out on the rest of the party when they were doing the least during Bismarck, instant kick out of my parties.

Why are people so opposed to attaching responsibility to a DPS role? Every other role has it, and it's a common thing in multiplayer games to know how your teammates are doing. You don't go onto the Halo forums and cry "Remove the kills and deaths from the scoreboard, people can see how useless I am!" do you? No, you don't. No one should be able to get away with doing incredibly poor DPS and get the same rewards as someone who is actually putting effort into playing. Would you like me to go into dungeons and start doing 500-800 DPS while watching TV? I'm sure no one would mind, because I'm a DPS and they should have no responsibility. /s

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

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Why is your character so cute? It's really making it hard to disagree with you ^.^

You are saying that lazy people will remain lazy. That's not entirely true. If you get enough group kicks for being lazy, then you might reconsider continuing your actions. Some will not change, some will.

The main issue with laziness, except for using others to get carried, is that the devs start considering nerfs and after that they just focus on easy content which can be done undersized. Wouldn't you say that this is also destroying games? I am getting mocked on regular basis by my friends that this game is the most casual MMO in existence... so they don't even try it. I don't blame them tho. The game is casual, but too much of it may discourage new players.

Now if the players were more willing to improve, the game could get a little bit more challenging, which could bring new players and lead to additional prosperity. The issue is that players expect to clear content that is beyond their skill, which they could finish fine if they put some effort in it. I don't see how this is good for the game.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Interesting. I wasn't aware any mmo had actually put it in game.

Haven't heard bad things about DCS community. But I haven't heard much so I could be mistaken. How are dps checks on it tight or is it purely a vanity thing?

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There are a few DPS check fights in the game, it isn't as heavily reliant on them as this game is however.

The game also had open PvP servers so in general i found the community to be a bit thicker skinned anyway, back when i was playing and raiding having your numbers out in the open led to more situations of comedy than they did drama often times a Healer or something trying to sneak in some extra DPS or some such.

More often than not though the damage meter did more to illustrate class imbalance than it did poor player skill, sure occasionally you would have someone who wasn't playing up to par, but a simple "Hey you're doing like 1/3rd the damage of the other fire DPS" would lead to "Oh? what skill set are you using? how do i do that?" and it pretty much ended there.

Raid designs in general were more focused about mechanics though, and as the combat system was designed in a way that it felt more like playing a fighting game it went well with it's environment.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

You are being as subjective as I am with your claims.

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how so? those three points weren't subjective at all.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Interesting. I wasn't aware any mmo had actually put it in game.

Haven't heard bad things about DCS community. But I haven't heard much so I could be mistaken. How are dps checks on it tight or is it purely a vanity thing?

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It's community has it's issues, like all, I find it to be worse for things other than parsers.

The devs tend to listen to the "Make everything easier" crowd at the drop of a hat. One resulting example would be "The Gates of Tartarus" Raid. It was an 8 man raid during Tier 4. It was so faceroll easy, that it was soloed at the next tier set. This is what some of the playerbase cried for more of, and last I checked up, it was stupid easy with all the new content. While a whole game can't be extreme challenge, a fall asleep easy game can't be healthy either.

But the devs over there were shown to intentionally leave gear set pieces out of the raid, on the assumption to sell more replay tickets*.

*Replay Tickets allow you too remove the loot lockout on a raid, so that you may gear up quicker. Think being able to get all the loot from Savage in a week, as long as you payed SE an extra 20-40 bucks. Any game with Pay to Win, well...


As far as the DPS check, they were tight in T5, but given how easy they made T4, the majority of the community wasn't ready for it. I can reccomend checking out how they set up The Paradox Wave raid in T5 though. Where you can fight the mini bosses seperatly in tunnels, or leave some up to fight with the main boss, and have them drop a higher level loot. A mini boss would pop out at the start of each phase, and you wanted to kill it before the next phase, or face two minis, as well as the main. And each of the mini's had one shot mechanics. That made for really tight dps checks if you could handle it.

As far as other MMOs that have them built in, someone listed about 5 a few pages back. Found it.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Offhand i can think of a few MMORPGs on the market that either allow, include, or make use of DPS meters through either in-game features or add on support:

Everquest
World of Warcraft
DC universe Online
Star Wars: The old Republic
Lord of the Rings Online

Many of them have been around far longer and it's already been shown that apathy is the largest response to public parsing, not toxicity. Maleviction posted a video talking about this, i suggest you watch it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

BTW calling people lazy scrubs is really not a very tolerant way to behave, and considering how most people in general treat kids with any developmental disability, and the words that they use to describe them, I'm disappointed to see you using that kind of language.

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This part right here comes off as really condescending to the person you quoted.


They did not make any statement about people with disabilities other than themselves. I don't see how tolerance is an issue with what they said at all. As they're using it, they seem to be describing players by their actions first and foremost, not any disability. I can see someone criticizing them for not considering why they might come off as lazy, but you're not doing that in this response. You're simply assuming that they're complaining about players with disabilities.

Further, you're projecting your experience and how you feel about disabilities to them in a condescending fashion. Through your life experiences you may have developed a certain way to describe others with disabilities, but you're making the assumption that the poster hasn't quite reached the same level of understanding that you have on the subject. Rather than disagreeing with them, you're berating them for not learning properly.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Why is your character so cute? It's really making it hard to disagree with you ^.^
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first, thank you

i do not agree making dungeon challenging by increasing boss HP or adding DPS check

actually i care more about the storyline /background story of each dungeon than challenging or not

i think the right way of challenging is not how hard you can hit the boss, but the do the right thing at the right time

for example i love the fight for Dragon neck, there are no DPS check, but doing the right move

again, i m not against a meter for personal use, but i do object it become official

i can only say my experience told me when it become prevalent, the harm it does are far greater than the good

i m not trying to change anyone mind, i wasnt even planning to involve in this thread until my fear of those dark dates will appear again

and i wont change my mind either, just show my support with Jynx, and kind of express my feeling about it

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

*snip*Rather than disagreeing with them, you're berating them for not learning properly.

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I'm berating no one, and I've said nothing about learning properly, though you have. The poster I was replying to should know better than to use the expression that they did, it's not about "learning properly", it's about respecting others.

I don't think you understand my objection to the phrase "lazy scrubs". I didn't think that remark was being used to describe anyone with a disability; I took it at face value as a disparaging remark aimed at gamers the poster thinks are not as good as he is. The point being, using such a phrase against others is both a generalization and prejudiced (as in pre-judging others) remark to make. If the poster is as they claim (and I see no reason to doubt them), high functioning autistic, then they'll be aware of the often disparaging terms used to describe those with disabilities - which I will not repeat here.

In other words, someone that through their own life experience should know not to use disparaging or negative remarks, went right ahead anyway. I simply pointed that out.