NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!

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Originally Posted by Dererk

No the problem is that there was gear rewards for a story raid. A story raid that was built so people can experience the story.

Needing the gear to start progressing in savage was a well.... Heck you know what I'll say it. A dick move. To get people in it to help others clear. (Couldn't think of a nicer way to say it so ill call it like it is.)

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You know whats also a dick move?

Thinking that only savage raiders deserve gear.

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I totally agree that releasin NM before Savage was a bad idea (I don't run Savage btw, scheduling and lack of any desire). Mostly because they used it as a stepping stone. There aren't too many people who wouldn't be burnt out by that.

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You'll never get that "epicness" feeling you got from your first raid ever again. It's like your first time for just about everything else.

I personally never found Coil to be "epic", but I've played other games that did the whole epic raid feel MUCH better.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Incorrect. Anything is better than playing with randoms you don't know, and doing challenging content with friends is the best thing this game has to offer.

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I actually fully agree with Taei. And playing with randomers are more fun than playing with the same people over and over again , Alex allows that. You have more of a challenge and you get to educate others on the game mechanics , allowing THEM to share the same experience.

I'm EXTREMELY happy with HW raid system and I thanks Yoship for that. The community feels more open to help everyone.

Keep the NM mode and "SAVAGE" mode.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

You obviously don't get it. That shit is illuminati cheese!!!! It's really important!!!

http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.16602...,ffffff.u1.png

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Aha! All the pieces are now falling into place!


But, I see from your avatar that you are a goblin sympathiser, and not to be trusted!

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

You'll never get that "epicness" feeling you got from your first raid ever again. It's like your first time for just about everything else.

I personally never found Coil to be "epic", but I've played other games that did the whole epic raid feel MUCH better.

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While its not my first raid (I am actually a very casual FFXIV player, other games I've played hard in.), you can't deny that Coil had a much "bigger" and much more important feel to it. I mean goblins...

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Aha! All the pieces are now falling into place!


But, I see from your avatar that you are a goblin sympathiser, and not to be trusted!


While its not my first raid (I am actually a very casual FFXIV player, other games I've played hard in.), you can't deny that Coil had a much "bigger" and much more important feel to it. I mean goblins...

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In comparison to Alex, perhaps, but neither of them have that epic feel to me.

I've gone through mountains to kill dragons, mountains bigger than the entirety of all of Coil.

I've gone through complexes housing old gods designed by the giant race that shaped the planet.

I've been through caves where dragons go to die and Djinni palaces.

Coil and Alex are just.. bland in comparison.

This game's focus isn't raiding though, so I expect it.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

You know whats also a dick move?

Thinking that only savage raiders deserve gear.

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Well honestly why do people who only want to do a story mode need gear?

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Well honestly why do people who only want to do a story mode need gear?

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Glamour is the real endgame (for me). Having said that though, Alexander gear is ugly as sin.

The main problem is all the new content is so "rushed" and void of all the wonderful creativity that was 2.x. Please SE spend the money to expand your team and make better content!

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

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Coil didn't really feel all that epic, at least imho. Alexander felt bigger to me, but I will admit that Coil's story, or rather, the last part of the coil storyline was a hell of a lot better. FCoB's story, while not quite epic, was still interesting. My only gripe with Alex's story is the protagonist doesn't seem to have much of a personality. And the Oppressor looks like a steam punk baby lawn mower. That single eye...

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Well honestly why do people who only want to do a story mode need gear?

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Because there's no content after Alexander. Nope, won't be ever.

Okay.

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Coil didn't really feel all that epic, at least imho. Alexander felt bigger to me, but I will admit that Coil's story, or rather, the last part of the coil storyline was a hell of a lot better. FCoB's story, while not quite epic, was still interesting. My only gripe with Alex's story is the protagonist doesn't seem to have much of a personality. And the Oppressor looks like a steam punk baby lawn mower. That single eye...

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Coil for the most part was a short series of rooms. Much like Alex. The *only* thing it had going for it was the story that went all the way back to 1.0. That's it. The zone itself was incredibly unimpressive.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Because there's no content after Alexander. Nope, won't be ever.
Okay.

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I imagine that Void Ark will have a i180 minimum. You can easily make that with Eso and Doman gear. You don't "need" the gear because you're not really facing any content that demands the numbers the higher ilevel gears give you.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I imagine that Void Ark will have a i180 minimum. You can easily make that with Eso and Doman gear. You don't "need" the gear because you're not really facing any content that demands the numbers the higher ilevel gears give you.

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pretty much the same thing with savage gear. Why would you need gear from savage when you can already beat savage without it?
At least A4S gear. A1-3S might have a case in being needed for A4S, but then again you have eso.

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Originally Posted by hagare

pretty much the same thing with savage gear. Why would you need gear from savage when you can already beat savage without it?
At least A4S gear. A1-3S might have a case in being needed for A4S, but then again you have eso.

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A.) To make the actually difficult content a bit easier, to get the rest of the gear you want, because it drops gear.
B.) You've designed a game where the typical rewards are either loot, or story. You've ostensibly removed story from the reward, what would the reward be if you also removed loot?

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

A.) To make the actually difficult content a bit easier, to get the rest of the gear you want, because it drops gear.
B.) You've designed a game where the typical rewards are either loot, or story. You've ostensibly removed story from the reward, what would the reward be if you also removed loot?

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1. your answer can be used for other content as well
2. better+dyable gear, achievements, unique mount, satisfaction of clearing hardest content available at the time.
seriously, for you to be sore that other people get to see the story in a story centered game with all those unique rewards is kinda childish.
PS: if you want to see the story after clearing savage, I suggest skipping the cutscene when you do normal. I think there's an option for that in the settings.

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Originally Posted by hagare

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1.) Considering you could clear the rest of the non-savage content in the game without any 180+ ilevel gear at all, you really can't compare the two situations in good faith. Imagine if the best chance you could possibly get at a HQ craft was 1%. CLEARLY, you don't need gear to make it easier, as it is theoretically possible to do it fine without it.
For the vast majority of players; the gear from later Savage Turns, dramatically increases your chance of success from the previous ones, allowing you to get more gear. (I haven't seen a single group wipe for non-mechanical reasons in Expert content since everyone had Doman gear) Or any gear for that matter, imagine if your party members got loot and you didn't. You'd want to be going back next week would you not? Any piece of gear your group earns is making it easier for the rest of the group to earn loot of their own. There is still a point to the itemization being higher.
2.) Read: Content an incredibly few number of players would even want, much less attempt to earn.
Much less you're putting words in my mouth by not actually responding to things I've said. Rather you're responding to a ridiculous strawman of what you think a "raider" is. I do not care if you get to see the story or get gear. I do care that the gear and normal mode was a necessary step in the itemization for savage.
PS: Your PS is irrelevant. I could make my reward for anything in the game be anything I already previously unlocked, simply by not using it/viewing it until completing an unrelated later goal. The reward for Alexander Normal, was a cutscene. Those same cutscenes are the same reward for savage.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I imagine that Void Ark will have a i180 minimum. You can easily make that with Eso and Doman gear. You don't "need" the gear because you're not really facing any content that demands the numbers the higher ilevel gears give you.

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I imagine it'll need 190.

Alex normal needed 170, which was full Law gear.

190 is full Alex normal gear.
I still think the problem with burnt out raiders is exclusively due to the way loot was handled and not the raid themselves.

"Nothing's different this is boring"
It'd been out two weeks after normal launch. Were you bored of doing the same fights every week for 2 months in Coil? No? Of course not, you did them once per week, not 4+ per boss(or more, if you df and didn't get very lucky).

Running the same fight over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in a short time period is going to burn you out.

On top of it, the Savage difficulty is asinine compared to the gear that was out when it was launched. They either should have delayed it or set the "ideal" item level lower. Based on output needed, it seems they had planned on 195 being the start point for A1S. That implies esoterics gear. Yet, they released it before yoiu could have possibly gotten enough gear to get to that point(because they released at the same time), hell, you couldn't even have full normal gear by then.

And yet they were peeved(you can tell) that it was cleared when it was. They expected it to take longer.

Now imagine if you'd only needed 180 to clear it, like the folks that didn't want to do Normal ask for. It'd have been cleared day one and ya'll would be crying it's not hard enough.

Make up your minds.

If it is broke. They do tend to fix it.
I think the slippery slope that might exist here would lie largely with what I have elsewhere called the "silly glamour geese." 5% of the players (a number I am unsure and unable to verify) having- allegedly exclusive- access to 100% of the item level 210 gear that exists is possibly the biggest concern. People really shouldn't have a privilege to be granted the best in slot gear that the game has available. It's earned. It was in the prior Final Fantasy Online. It has been here. Tyranny of the minority is the one fear that could be valid only if the content isn't simplified into the future by people simply over-powering much of it. Altogether, I do not pretend to say I know what Square Enix could do to make the dynamic of Savage more balanced and fair. I look forward to 3.1 where they will have examined and possibly fix anything they feel should be corrected.

I differentiate hardcore/midcore/casual by social commitment more than anything. Alex Normal I feel like is the alternative raid for those of us who don't want to stress with a static, or to configure Party Finder setups for an hour plus before diving it. They just wanna sit down and play

Just log in, DF, and go.

Alex NM is currently the hardest lvl60 DF option right? So my issue is actually with the loot system. I wish they had taken the extra step and done a weekly repeatable quest for Alex Normal, where doing all 1-4 NM raids gets you a quest reward (like Crystal Towers LoA>ST>WoD quest). But the quest reward just being the choice of a bolt, pedal, x2 spring, x2 shaft.. all left side require 2 quests to complete (except for belt)

As is, really even if it's cheese ez, the lots are never in my favor and I get sick of spending 6~ hours grinding just to get 1 Shaft, cuz if I ever lot over 90, someone else is lotting 99. It's PF friendly content, not DF friendly.. which I feel like the whole point of NM Alex is to be a DF-friendly raid

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

1.) Considering you could clear the rest of the non-savage content in the game without any higher ilevel gear at all, you really can't. Imagine if the best chance you could possibly get at a HQ craft was 1%. CLEARLY, you don't need gear to make it easier, as it is theoretically possible to do it fine without it.

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what's the difference from other content?
You use savage drops to do savage better, others do normal to do normal better.
you get better gear for craft to do crafts better.
you don't need A1S drops to clear A1S, you don't need A1N drops to clear A1N.
no one "needs" Ravana weapons to clear Ravana
you don't "need" drops from a content to clear said drop, be it savage, normal, or any other content.
so yes you really can.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

For the vast majority of players. The gear from any Turns, dramatically increases your chance of success from the previous ones, allowing you to get more gear. Or any gear for that matter, imagine if your party members got loot and you didn't. You'd want to be going back next week would you not? Any piece of gear your group earns is making it easier for the rest of the group to earn loot of their own. There is still a point to the itemization being higher.

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Fixed that for you

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Much less you're putting words in my mouth by not actually responding to things I've said. Rather you're responding to a ridiculous strawman of what you think a "raider" is. I do not care if you get to see the story or get gear.

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But I did response to the things you've said.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I imagine that Void Ark will have a i180 minimum. You can easily make that with Eso and Doman gear. You don't "need" the gear because you're not really facing any content that demands the numbers the higher ilevel gears give you.

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look above

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

B.) You've designed a game where the typical rewards are either loot, or story. You've ostensibly removed story from the reward, what would the reward be if you also removed loot?

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and this one with:

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Originally Posted by hagare

2. better+dyable gear, achievements, unique mount, satisfaction of clearing hardest content available at the time.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I do care that the gear and normal mode was a necessary step in the itemization for savage.

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the only true thing here is needing to clear Normal ONCE to start doing Savage.
You don't need gear from normal to do savage as you have alternative gear in the form of eso gear.
whether you choose to wait longer until you have enough eso gear to do alex savage or farm alex normal gear to do alex savage faster is all up to you.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

2.) Read: Content an incredibly few number of players would even want, much less attempt to earn.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

PS: Your PS is irrelevant. I could make my reward for anything in the game be anything I already previously unlocked, simply by not using it/viewing it until completing an unrelated later goal. The reward for Alexander Normal, was a cutscene. Those same cutscenes are the same reward for savage.

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seriously, for you to be sore about the only one thing that is the same in Alex normal and savage and choosing to ignore all those unique rewards is kinda childish.

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Originally Posted by hagare

for you to be sore that other people get to see the story in a story centered game with all those unique rewards is kinda childish.

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Where did I say anything that would imply this? I have specifically said multiple times that I do not care if people get to see the story or get gear from normal Alexander. My only complaint is that it conflicts with the itemization of Savage. There are ways to circumvent this problem that would still allow non-savage players to get the rewards they are now.

You're having a little tirade against some imagined elitist here. I'm baffled how you don't see this. Enjoy being bitter and confrontational.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Where did I say anything that would imply this? I have specifically said multiple times that I do not care if people get to see the story or get gear from normal Alexander. My only complaint is that it conflicts with the itemization of Savage. There are ways to circumvent this problem that would still allow non-savage players to get the rewards they are now.

You're having a little tirade against some imagined elitist here. I'm baffled how you don't see this. Enjoy being bitter and confrontational.

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Okay sure :D

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Originally Posted by hagare

snip.

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You have no actual idea what you're talking about, do you?

Unless this is just b8. This is b8 right?


Anyway. The average item level for the CT trilogy was 50,70, and 90. 40 item levels below the current cap from each patch cycle.

Your current cap is 210, so i170 would make sense. But it will probably be just i180 to not make Alexander NM completely irrelevant. Making it anywhere above that would be stupid. You can't grind up to i190 right off the bat, since you are victim to NM's weekly lockout. The purpose of these alliance raids have been for the more casual players and for those late for the patch cycle to play catch-up. Locking out your catch-up content to gearing up through two other weekly lock-outs is completely and utterly stupid.

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Originally Posted by HorseBoots

You have no actual idea what you're talking about, do you?

Unless this is just b8. This is b8 right?


Anyway. The average item level for the CT trilogy was 50,70, and 90. 40 item levels below the current cap from each patch cycle.

Your current cap is 210, so i170 would make sense. But it will probably be just i180 to not make Alexander NM completely irrelevant. Making it anywhere above that would be stupid. You can't grind up to i190 right off the bat, since you are victim to NM's weekly lockout. The purpose of these alliance raids have been for the more casual players and for those late for the patch cycle to play catch-up. Locking out your catch-up content to gearing up through two other weekly lock-outs is completely and utterly stupid.

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If you think it's b8 then sure it is :D

I very much enjoyed NM Raids. A lot of players do not have time or desire to get into a static that has to dedicate time to schedule a meet to nock out these Savage Mode raids. No body is forcing anyone to run NM raids over and over and over again. As a matter of fact you don't need to. Any hardcore raider wont need to. Run it once then wait for savage mode.

You are already getting awesome gear from Savage mode while the majority of players will have to wait till 3.1 to upgrade eso gear. I am one who plays this game to level up all classes and to enjoy all the stories this game has to offer. I use to love hardcore raiding in other games but in FFXIV I don't have time for that anymore.

To all the hardcore salty raiders out there get over it and allow the majority of the players to enjoy there NM raids so they can enjoy the story, because the casual players are the ones that keep the lights on at FFXIV don't forget that.

I lost my motivation honestly. Getting 10 item level extra for no reason and its the exact same looking gear but dyable...meh. Ill pass and wait until something more interesting comes out.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

No body is forcing anyone to run NM raids over and over and over again. As a matter of fact you don't need to. Any hardcore raider wont need to. Run it once then wait for savage mode.

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Hahahaha.

No. You're wrong.

Serious raiding includes everyone has to prepare for the raid. That is not just get food and pots. Its also "use all options you have to get as much gear with good stats as you can".

Every serious raidgroup started to farm Alex normal directly at day one, with the aim, to have the best possible gear setup rigth at the start of Alex savage.

No. Just run Alex normal once is not an option if you really want to progress savage.

Karsten, that's precisely why the loot system in normal sucks ass and contributed to the problem, to the point where I believe that it alone is the cause of like, 90% of the problem.

Gear paths popped up on Reddit immediately.

You *needed* to get those drops, in that order, to get the ideal gear fastest. This meant you burned yourselves out on the content running it a billion times for 5 weeks maxing out your gear because even with Savage out, you weren't filling your slots immediately and most raiders went for weapons first.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

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Is this for real? If you didn't have all the pieces (or for some classes, the majority of pieces, since some 180 gear can be used to meet ACC caps) from Alex Normal all you're doing is gimping yourself and being a burden to your static, who will have to make up for your lack of gear by putting more pressure on themselves to perform better. The way AS is tuned currently required everyone to have their best gear, their best food, their best pots, and be on their best behaviour.

Can you complete AS1/2 by skipping a few drops from Alex here and there? Its possible. But it's also possible to swim with ankle weights on when your objective is to swim as fast as possible. It'll just be exceedingly stupid to do so.

I'm not arguing against your point that Normal/Savage split is a great idea and allows everyone to experience the story regardless of their skill level, time commitment, like/dislike of raiding, but the "run it once and wait for Savage, don't bother getting 190 gear from Normal" argument is total and complete bullshit.

I think SE anticipated this drought we have and prepared Savage and gear progression to be really be drawn out to "last" to the next patch. I wouldn't be surprise if SE revamps the drops and such to regular standards in 3.2.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

THEI TOOK UHR RAIHD!

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http://s22.postimg.org/eypnhs4up/aepr3z_Q_460s_v1.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/rvmsb.jpg

Sometimes it's very hard to post a constructive comment when someone is being a totally self-centered, self-entitled *Censored*

On a more serious and constructive note, you post about catering 5% of the content to 5% of the players. Did you hit your head or something? Why not make content for 100% of the player base?
Hard content =/= Exclusive content for raiders.

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All those pictures.

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:D:D:D:D This has to be it. In before the lock guys...:cool::cool::cool::cool:

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Originally Posted by Astral145

I very much enjoyed NM Raids. A lot of players do not have time or desire to get into a static that has to dedicate time to schedule a meet to nock out these Savage Mode raids. No body is forcing anyone to run NM raids over and over and over again. As a matter of fact you don't need to. Any hardcore raider wont need to. Run it once then wait for savage mode.
You are already getting awesome gear from Savage mode while the majority of players will have to wait till 3.1 to upgrade eso gear. I am one who plays this game to level up all classes and to enjoy all the stories this game has to offer. I use to love hardcore raiding in other games but in FFXIV I don't have time for that anymore.

To all the hardcore salty raiders out there get over it and allow the majority of the players to enjoy there NM raids so they can enjoy the story, because the casual players are the ones that keep the lights on at FFXIV don't forget that.

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What about the majority of raiders that have very little to do right now? Casual players have alex Nm. Hardcore raiders have alex savage 1-4. What about the larger raiding population, the regular non-hardcore crowd. Are they just supposed to quit the game since the dev team does not care about them? Should they just unsub at this point since they literally will never have any meaningful raid content to do with this paradigm?

You're generalizing and it makes your points come off as presumptuous. Most of these "salty hardcore raiders" Will not even get to try upgrading left side eso items before 3.1. Check your silly assumptions that all raiders play at the same level.

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Originally Posted by Nerael

http://s22.postimg.org/eypnhs4up/aepr3z_Q_460s_v1.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/rvmsb.jpg

Sometimes it's very hard to post a constructive comment when someone is being a totally self-centered, self-entitled *Censored*

On a more serious and constructive note, you post about catering 5% of the content to 5% of the players. Did you hit your head or something? Why not make content for 100% of the player base?
Hard content =/= Exclusive content for raiders.

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There is no exclusive content in MMO's. There is only content you cannot do for z, y or z reason. I don't do chocobo racing because it's a huge time sink for very little rewards. I don't have the time to invest in something with so little pay out.

That does not mean I am going to demand that chocobo racing get a second "tier" Where our birds our less powerful than regular ones but are easier to breed/level. hard content =/= exclusive

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I imagine it'll need 190.

Alex normal needed 170, which was full Law gear.

190 is full Alex normal gear.
I still think the problem with burnt out raiders is exclusively due to the way loot was handled and not the raid themselves.

"Nothing's different this is boring"
It'd been out two weeks after normal launch. Were you bored of doing the same fights every week for 2 months in Coil? No? Of course not, you did them once per week, not 4+ per boss(or more, if you df and didn't get very lucky).

Running the same fight over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in a short time period is going to burn you out.

On top of it, the Savage difficulty is asinine compared to the gear that was out when it was launched. They either should have delayed it or set the "ideal" item level lower. Based on output needed, it seems they had planned on 195 being the start point for A1S. That implies esoterics gear. Yet, they released it before yoiu could have possibly gotten enough gear to get to that point(because they released at the same time), hell, you couldn't even have full normal gear by then.

And yet they were peeved(you can tell) that it was cleared when it was. They expected it to take longer.

Now imagine if you'd only needed 180 to clear it, like the folks that didn't want to do Normal ask for. It'd have been cleared day one and ya'll would be crying it's not hard enough.

Make up your minds.

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1) Yes, it was very boring. Stop speaking for us, you're just making straw-man arguments to prop up your points by doing that. No one likes farming raids after you get the full clear. Once you're group starts farming, the loot is what becomes fun. The boring part IS doing the same fights over and over again every week.

2) So does farming a weekly lockout, which is why raiders frequently "take a break" between raid patches. NM took the "new car smell" away from savage. You can't defend, twist, or interpret it. Many raiders are voicing the opinion NM being essentially required killed SV for them.

3) There is no council of raiders where we meet and agree upon the agenda. Raiders =/= unified group of people who share the same opinions. Different people propose different solutions, what a novel concept.

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Originally Posted by hagare

1. your answer can be used for other content as well
2. better+dyable gear, achievements, unique mount, satisfaction of clearing hardest content available at the time.
seriously, for you to be sore that other people get to see the story in a story centered game with all those unique rewards is kinda childish.
PS: if you want to see the story after clearing savage, I suggest skipping the cutscene when you do normal. I think there's an option for that in the settings.

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That is only really all available to the top 10% of the raiding community. The other 90% will probably get their first gob twine from Void ark. So, no, raiding savage is hardly rewarding right now. The gear that is dyable, that isnt boots or gloves, are locked behind a3s and a4s. That mount and that gratification of killing a4s are only for the server best players. The achievements don't give any titles like SCoB savage, so those are also underwhelming.

PS: You know that a good potion of the story cut scenes were tied to a quest that does not repeat with savage right? If raiders did what you suggest, they would miss out on at least half of the cut scenes In NM. What a horribly thought out suggestion. I also love that you would make the people who want to work the most for the story most wait the longest while people who want it spoon fed could not wait for echo nerfs like in ARR.

Zosia, if you didn't like "farming" it after the first clear, you didn't have to.

I've been raiding in MMOs for over 10 years. If I didn't like farm runs like you seem to think raiders don't like, then I wouldn't be doing it. I wouldn't have been doing it. I wouldn't do it in the future.

I've also never had my teams take breaks in between raid patches.

This is the very first game where running the same raid 20 times a week was night required for gear.

If you were tired of Coil in the first two weeks like you claim to have been with normal Alex, maybe raiding isn't for you.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Zosia, if you didn't like "farming" it after the first clear, you didn't have to.
I've been raiding in MMOs for over 10 years. If I didn't like farm runs like you seem to think raiders don't like, then I wouldn't be doing it. I wouldn't have been doing it. I wouldn't do it in the future.

I've also never had my teams take breaks in between raid patches.

This is the very first game where running the same raid 20 times a week was night required for gear.

If you were tired of Coil in the first two weeks like you claim to have been with normal Alex, maybe raiding isn't for you.

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If you're really an ex raider (or currently are one), then you know why we can't simply "take a break" without leaving your static (unless your team takes a break, which was what I was implying). I am part of a higher end raid team and you can't sit on your hands once things are on farm. You want to go in with the highest footing possible to tackle bosses of SV or the next raid tier.

This is why wow removed traditional tier sets and trinkets from LFR. They did not want normal-mythic raiders feeling like there was a lost opportunity to improve performance. That's what alex NM was. You either prepared for savage with alex normal or waited months on eso. Farming alex NM was a chore, and virtually mandatory at that. What makes it boring and feel like a chore? The fights are so simple! You can literally face roll all of normal with a complete pug. That's what made farming coil boring. Farming == the fight is learned. You can go on auto pilot. Especially the fights SE designs where you literally are performing the same thing for the same global 90% of the time through the entire encounter.

I don't even need to look at the screen in a3s until the 1st knock back. At least the rest of the fight is still challenging. I think you get my point though. Once you start to farm a raid tier, it's for your BiS for the next raid tier. You don't keep farming it because it's fun to kill the same fight over and over again. It's fun to chase the loot dragon. It's fun to play with your buddies. It's fun to get the first few clears.

If you wanted to join a static at the start of SV, you needed to come geared so a static would have recruited you. If you were already in a static, you would not let your team down by showing up day one of a1s without any alex normal gear.

It was a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

Out of curiosity, what is the story justification for Alex Savage? I assume they don't just drop out of character for a second and say "Hey player, you want a bigger challenge, better gear? Let's go back in there and punch things in the face."

I mean like how The harder Ultima was you reliving the tale with some embellishments from that bard, or how the Extreme Primals are them being resummoned with more crystals. How they choose to set it up may limit options for the future.

I should note that I am not far enough in the game to pick sides, just ask questions.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Out of curiosity, what is the story justification for Alex Savage? I assume they don't just drop out of character for a second and say "Hey player, you want a bigger challenge, better gear? Let's go back in there and punch things in the face."

I mean like how The harder Ultima was you reliving the tale with some embellishments from that bard, or how the Extreme Primals are them being resummoned with more crystals. How they choose to set it up may limit options for the future.

I should note that I am not far enough in the game to pick sides, just ask questions.

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Same as Ultimas Ballad, you get the Savage quest from the Wandering Mistral in Mor D. Hes a good fall back for when they can't think of a better reason.

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Originally Posted by zosia

It did not work out well this time. The reason sucked.

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Sigh, I didn't mean it was a good reason for us to do it. It's just their go to fall back for if they don't have a real reason.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Same as Ultimas Ballad, you get the Savage quest from the Wandering Mistral in Mor D. Hes a good fall back for when they can't think of a better reason.

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It did not work out well this time. The reason sucked.

To me - Alexander Savage is not worth it because there isn't enough time to enjoy your hard earned gear before it becomes outdated.

Ultimately I think having Alexander NM is better for 95% of the FFXIV community. I would say only 5% or less of the FFXIV is the type of community that plays enough to be able to tackle savage difficulty content prior to an item level cap raise.

Back during BcB - you would have your 5% of the community that could finish all of the turns prior to an itemlevel cap raise. After the itemlevel cap raise, these "hardcore / highly skilled" players would move onto the next coil. The 95% of the community that hadn't finished the older coil had to make a choice. They could move onto the newer content that rewarded higher item level gear than the old coil - or they could attempt to work with some of the lesser skilled 95% to play outdated content for storyline purposes. The latter didn't always pan out and hence you had majority of the community never being able to experience coil.

The bottom line - 95% of the community could waste all of their free time trying to take down savage and likely would never complete it prior to a level cap raise (or would finally complete it at the 11th hour and find that their hard earned gear would be outdated within a week or two).

As of now, I can comfortably view the storyline - get my item level 190 gear and then catch up on other games. To me, it's not worth the ridiculous amount of effort that goes into getting the 210 gear - as it will be outdated within a six months. In a couple months I'm sure I can do expert roulette and buy something higher than 210.

If SE wanted to fix this - they would make item level 210 the highest possible gear for a couple of years (the duration of the expansion). Subsequent patches would offer horizontal progression (gear with perks). If I "knew" that I was going to be stuck with item level 190 gear for a couple of years while there is 210 out there - I might be more inclined to do something about it. As of now - I don't want this game to be my full-time job - (I would spend all my freetime trying to get full item level 210 gear and then the cap would get raised).

So you either have NM and everyone experiences the story. Or you have only savage and less than 10 percent experiences the story. Or alternatively you do the two year plan thing I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

To me - Alexander Savage is not worth it because there isn't enough time to enjoy your hard earned gear before it becomes outdated.Ultimately I think having Alexander NM is better for 95% of the FFXIV community. I would say only 5% or less of the FFXIV is the type of community that plays enough to be able to tackle savage difficulty content prior to an item level cap raise.

Back during BcB - you would have your 5% of the community that could finish all of the turns prior to an itemlevel cap raise. After the itemlevel cap raise, these "hardcore / highly skilled" players would move onto the next coil. The 95% of the community that hadn't finished the older coil had to make a choice. They could move onto the newer content that rewarded higher item level gear than the old coil - or they could attempt to work with some of the lesser skilled 95% to play outdated content for storyline purposes. The latter didn't always pan out and hence you had majority of the community never being able to experience coil.

The bottom line - 95% of the community could waste all of their free time trying to take down savage and likely would never complete it prior to a level cap raise (or would finally complete it at the 11th hour and find that their hard earned gear would be outdated within a week or two).

As of now, I can comfortably view the storyline - get my item level 190 gear and then catch up on other games. To me, it's not worth the ridiculous amount of effort that goes into getting the 210 gear - as it will be outdated within a six months. In a couple months I'm sure I can do expert roulette and buy something higher than 210.

If SE wanted to fix this - they would make item level 210 the highest possible gear for a couple of years (the duration of the expansion). Subsequent patches would offer horizontal progression (gear with perks). If I "knew" that I was going to be stuck with item level 190 gear for a couple of years while there is 210 out there - I might be more inclined to do something about it. As of now - I don't want this game to be my full-time job - (I would spend all my freetime trying to get full item level 210 gear and then the cap would get raised).

So you either have NM and everyone experiences the story. Or you have only savage and less than 10 percent experiences the story. Or alternatively you do the two year plan thing I mentioned.

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That is such a valid point. It's akin to giving out current mythic hellfire citadel gear while mythic hellfire citadel is still progression in wow. I never ever have any issues with nerfs or giving out catch up gear, but do we really need to give savage alex equivalent gear in void ark while savage alex is still progression?

I never understood why this is such a big issue for players. I was never into 25 man heroic raiding in wow, but I never begrudged those 25 man heroic raiders for getting higher ilvl gear than I could get. It was their reward for their efforts.

As is the same for most any MMO. I never begrudged the top 1% of the players that had stuff I did not have the time or resources to earn, and I was fine with that. I would go back to old expansion tiers to farm vanity and I was content being a normal mode raider with my normal mode rewards.

Here, players throw a conniption fit about having the same ilvl as raiders, even if the content is still current. The sad part, is they get so focused on ilvl, sometimes it goes over their head that 210 does not always == BiS. It's like people complain for gear they don't even know how to utilize properly.

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Originally Posted by zosia

That is only really all available to the top 10% of the raiding community. The other 90% will probably get their first gob twine from Void ark. So, no, raiding savage is hardly rewarding right now. The gear that is dyable, that isnt boots or gloves, are locked behind a3s and a4s. That mount and that gratification of killing a4s are only for the server best players. The achievements don't give any titles like SCoB savage, so those are also underwhelming.

PS: You know that a good potion of the story cut scenes were tied to a quest that does not repeat with savage right? If raiders did what you suggest, they would miss out on at least half of the cut scenes In NM. What a horribly thought out suggestion. I also love that you would make the people who want to work the most for the story most wait the longest while people who want it spoon fed could not wait for echo nerfs like in ARR.

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Top 10% only? Did SE not allow the 90% to do it?
the rest in that is all opinion I guess.

PS: hey, it's not my fault they lost their motivation after seeing it in normal and the other rewards aren't enough for them
Maybe they should just stick with normal then :p

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Originally Posted by zosia

Here, players throw a conniption fit about having the same ilvl as raiders, even if the content is still current. The sad part, is they get so focused on ilvl, sometimes it goes over their head that 210 does not always == BiS. It's like people complain for gear they don't even know how to utilize properly.

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I rarely see those kinds of thread here now.
Most I see is those raider threads complaining about savage.
either about removing NM, not enough motivation/rewards for doing it, how it's not worth doing because it''s too hard etc etc etc

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Originally Posted by hagare

Top 10% only? Did SE not allow the 90% to do it?
the rest in that is all opinion I guess.

PS: hey, it's not my fault they lost their motivation after seeing it in normal and the other rewards aren't enough for them
Maybe they should just stick with normal then :p


I rarely see those kinds of thread here now.
Most I see is those raider threads complaining about savage.
either about removing NM, not enough motivation/rewards for doing it, how it's not worth doing because it''s too hard etc etc etc

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Yes, because,

A) this game already gives absolutely everything the casual player. Keep the upgrade items out of void ark and see what kind of post pop up.

B) There are some serious problems with Alex savage. I don't think you understand the problem. You seem to refuse to actually try to understand. You rather brush it off as rabble, like a good portion of the people on this forum. It does not matter if we are irate or we take the time to talk to you folks as respectful as we can, player to player. The only thing that people care about is having their toys and damn everyone else no matter how it effects the reward schedule of the game. A couple more raid tiers like this one and you won't have to worry about raider threads anymore, I promise you that.

Should I take pictures of the convos I am having every week where statics have broken up so I can post them here? Do you guys needs to see that about an average of one static, a well know one, breaks up once a week? The attrition rate is through the roof and SE is about to lose the lion's share of the entire raiding community.

Even Elysium, the world first group, said that alex SV might have been tuned too hard. Remove your head from the sand and realize it's never a good thing for a game to lose about 10% of it's players. Do you really want to look back at 3.0 as the content that broke the end game? That's the reality we are facing right now while you brush this off as more hardcore rabble.

P.S. Don't worry, don't have to apologize, just understand your idea was poorly thought out.