Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

OP propably expected friendly tap on back in this thread and you kinda slapped him right into face and for that I love you sir.
Well I hope you won't get temp ban from forums for this, someone most probably reported you. :D

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Thanks for the concern, but it's done. I had all the nonsense I could stand.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Definition of entitlement: the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges). As you said that SE chose you to be tiebreaker as a tank.. well.. the definition.

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SE did not choose the tank to be the tie breaker they choose a random player to be leader which is designated by the L next to their portrait in the player list. Ultimately it is the party leaders say and not some random dps, tank, or healer.

I think there is a huge difference between being a leader and a boss.

A leader is meant to LEAD, not to give orders or take final decisions.
So yeah, a Tank is the party leader, but not party boss.
Tank is just meant to lead, not to decide alone if runs will be 'full clear' or 'fast clear', or if group will deal with massive pulls or not. It's up to the group to decide things altogether (if you running with a premade party, you guys can decide who is going to be the boss).
Nothing in this game (raid, dgns) can be done without a specific party role. But be pretty sure: Anything can be done without YOU (yeah!! you there!!! Reading my post!!! lol).
By: A tank, tanking to protect my comrades =P

Btw, I hope I'm not off topic xD just my 2c

Healer here: I run the dungeon.
Have you not seen the scholar/white mage solo dungeon runs?

Tanks.. You're replaceable.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I've never seen so many overly hostile people on a forum community, wow.

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Correction:

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I've never seen so many overly hostile people in a forum community, wow.

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SE has unintentionally created the biggest cesspool of MMO gamers since the Barrens.

No where else will you find Console gamers, PC gamers, Bots, RMT spammers, forum trolls, elitists, and casuals all clown-car packed in to the (NA) back seat of a Japanese owned and operated game.

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

Healer here: I run the dungeon.
Have you not seen the scholar/white mage solo dungeon runs?

Tanks.. You're replaceable.

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Personally I listen to healers more than tanks. They usually have a better view of the surroundings and are not as focused on one task.

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

Healer here: I run the dungeon.
Have you not seen the scholar/white mage solo dungeon runs?

Tanks.. You're replaceable.

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Correction:

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Healer here: I run the dungeon.
Have you not seen the scholar/white mage solo dungeon runs?

Tanks.. You're replaceable, after a twenty minute wait.

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

I cannot WAIT until 2017 to necro this thread! lol!

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At the current pace, this may still be going in 2017..



And to add (didn't want to double-post, sorry to whomever liked this comment before the edit - feel free to remove)

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Originally Posted by Adire

Nice try. In that first quote that was from my OP, I did not edit that sentence at all. It has been there and worded that exact way since I first posted this thread. I don't see why you don't think the OP might change and it might be worth looking at again, but that part wasn't even changed. OP edits happen frequently on forums and is the best way to clarify the OP's opinion without requiring readers to read through an entire thread, but moving on. For the people who don't believe me and want solid proof that I had clarified how quickly the DPS said his first sentence prior to Skivvy's first posting though:

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I don't get what you're getting at here. At the time of my first reply, I saw the DPS's comment to you. If you recall correctly, I mentioned that you could have taken the high-road, or simply given them the benefit of the doubt. Am I missing something else here?

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Originally Posted by Adire

Let's take a look at the second quote. My second quote was first posted on 05-01-2015 at 11:41 PM. It was last edited on 05-01-2015 at 11:49 PM.

Now let's take a look at when your first post was. Your very first post on the topic was on 05-02-2015 at 02:13 AM.

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I'm not quite sure what second quote you're talking about, perhaps the 2nd time I quoted you? If that is the one in question, I was not aware of your penchant for editing past posts, and so I was simply responding to the accusation of not reading based on what I had previously read and replied to.

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Originally Posted by Adire

So, are you essentially saying that I went back in time and edited my post because I somehow knew you were going to post on this topic and somehow knew I'd need to change it in order to argue against you? I don't think you are, but that's what would be required here really.

The timestamps aren't supporting you here :P. The second post couldn't have been "considerably different" at the time of your posting because its last edit came before your first post on the thread. Even if you were referring only to the OP being considerably different, my point still stands. Whether you didn't read/understand the OP, or didn't read/understand the second post, either way you missed something. I have since found a third post where I mentioned it after your first post as well.

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That's just crazy. I don't think you edited anything intentionally just to mislead people. However, I do think that your constant editing is making this thread incredibly difficult to keep up with, and then you turn around and blame people for not reading previous-edits that they had no idea existed in the first place. You use the "you didn't read" reply as if you're trying to one-up people, but you're not keeping the game fair.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I felt that you needed to read or at least re-read to understand that the DPS did have time to type out at least "please", and understand that he had no excuse not to. If he had "no skipping anything" typed fast enough to barely even give the cut scene skip screen time to end, he had time to add the simple word "please". There is no excuse why he couldn't have had the time.

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I've acknowledged the fact he may have just been an ass, but someone else's bad manners do not excuse your own. But again, we're human. We're prone to emotional responses, so I can understand the knee-jerk reaction. But for quite awhile you tried to blame the other people as being soley responsible for the outcome. Claiming it was your right as a tank to do what you want. Did not sit well with me.

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Originally Posted by Adire

And as for your question, I have answered it. On any forum, it's important to check the OP for possible edits every so often if you are involved in the discussion. An OP in part is the thread creator's summarized opinions/purpose of the thread. When a thread gets huge like this one, it becomes even more worthwhile for the thread creator to summarize what they want to say in the OP.

You can really blame the 20 post limit for why I was forced to respond to a lot of people in the OP at the time. You did see my response to you in the OP though, so you must have been watching it some, enough to see my disclaimer I would think. If I recall correctly, you asked me why I was responding to you again, so you did see the response in the OP. I will quote if you like.

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I only went back to read your OP once I realized you were tweaking your previous posts. That was probably after the 2nd time you accused me of not reading something. Don't have the exact time frame, but it took me awhile to realize you were doing this. And as I mentioned before, my replies were to where the CURRENT conversation was. Not 10+ pages back.

I have never been on a forum where previous posts (not just the OP) are constantly edited to add more information. Yes, the 20 max post a day here doesn't help, but even still, I've not run into this level of editing on other threads. How do you expect anyone to keep up with ninja edits? If/when I get bored enough, I'll have to go back through your posts to see exactly how many were edited AFTER people already responded as the numbers (just from eyeballing) seem high. You can't blame people for missing things you've thrown in after they've already responded to you.


And for full disclosure, I have not really been following the thread since my post on 5/3/15, but nothing said above really deals with the actual story.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I don't get what you're getting at here. At the time of my first reply, I saw the DPS's comment to you. If you recall correctly, I mentioned that you could have taken the high-road, or simply given them the benefit of the doubt. Am I missing something else here?

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Yes, you are missing something. Because in my second quote, I explained to someone else that he had the time to post a better worded sentence asking me to do a clear rather than demanding it. This was also explained in my OP.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'm not quite sure what second quote you're talking about, perhaps the 2nd time I quoted you? If that is the one in question, I was not aware of your penchant for editing past posts, and so I was simply responding to the accusation of not reading based on what I had previously read and replied to.

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This quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

"no skipping anything" - said by the one dps upon the dungeon starting

"i only have one aoe, so thank you and goodbye" - said by the dps upon being asked to aoe the mobs he wanted exp from, after being asked by our side as a compromise

"if you don't pull extra mobs, i will and the healer will let you die"

Does this sound like a compromising attitude to you? The very first thing anyone said, as soon as the barrier went down at the start, was the first thing I quoted for you.

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This quote is from a post that was last edited before you had even posted on the topic. As such, if you had indeed read, you should have understood that he had time to say please to me if he had time to have that typed quickly enough to beat the barrier going down. If you didn't gather that from my post, that's another story. But you cannot blame me here for doubting that you had read the post. I think doubting critical thinking skills is more offensive than doubting if someone read.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

That's just crazy. I don't think you edited anything intentionally just to mislead people. However, I do think that your constant editing is making this thread incredibly difficult to keep up with, and then you turn around and blame people for not reading previous-edits that they had no idea existed in the first place. You use the "you didn't read" reply as if you're trying to one-up people, but you're not keeping the game fair.


I've acknowledged the fact he may have just been an ass, but someone else's bad manners do not excuse your own. But again, we're human. We're prone to emotional responses, so I can understand the knee-jerk reaction. But for quite awhile you tried to blame the other people as being soley responsible for the outcome. Claiming it was your right as a tank to do what you want. Did not sit well with me.

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None of my edits have been done very long after responses, and if they've been significant edits, I have added "Edit:" to each post and changed the formats of posts to make it obvious they were edited. MY OP even hasn't been edited in days now, and when it was edited the last time it was simply to remove the responses to people that I put on it because of the post limit preventing me from responding to them with a new post.

Edit: I cannot remember for sure If I reworded my post to better reflect my views accurately before or after I moved the responses come to think of it, but the story itself has remained unchanged from the original in any case, and the people assuming I am okay with tanks being dictators have been posting since the beginning, even after I said otherwise. My 3rd and 4th posts on the thread even said that I did not support dictator-like behavior from tanks. My third post on the thread was about 12 minutes after its creation, and the 4th one was less than an hour after it, so that still does not excuse the 30+ pages of people still saying I'm a jerk and dictator. They should know better if they've seen my first few posts on the thread.

Also, they were solely responsible. Why? Because they did not treat me with common decency. I have been claiming this entire thread that it was only my right to do what I wanted because there was a tie , and because I was demanded of. And even then I tried to compromise because compromise is the best way to negotiate when there is no clear majority and because I still value human rights more than a role's rights. And that I did not skip mobs because I had bad intent. And that I helped him out with the mobs when he pulled them. Outside of responding with immediate politeness or giving into his demands after his immediate rudeness, I did everything I could. And what I did was hardly the response of a cruel person, especially given the good things that I did.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I only went back to read your OP once I realized you were tweaking your previous posts. That was probably after the 2nd time you accused me of not reading something. Don't have the exact time frame, but it took me awhile to realize you were doing this. And as I mentioned before, my replies were to where the CURRENT conversation was. Not 10+ pages back.

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Well like I said, I clarified how quickly the guy had posted his comment in my OP. It was there in my OP from the beginning. You also should have seen my disclaimer in my OP, seeing as how you asked me why I was responding to you again when I moved my response to you to another post, and should have seen that I was going to be moving the responses to reduce clutter. That was right there with the responses to people I had on my OP at the time. If you had the knowledge to think I was responding to you again when I moved my responses, that means you were aware that the response to you was in the OP. With those responses, I had this disclaimer:

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Originally Posted by Adire

Edit: Please go to this post if you want to see the posts I addressed in my OP originally (moved it there to reduce the clutter in the OP):

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What this strongly says to me is that you saw and possibly did read my response to you on my OP. When I moved it, you assumed I was responding to your quote a second time (though my response to your was the exact same as it was on my OP...if you had read the content the second time even a little, you should really have known it was just a moved response). You believing me to be responding to you a second time also shows you missed that quote I just provided for you, that was in my OP as long as the responses were.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I have never been on a forum where previous posts (not just the OP) are constantly edited to add more information. Yes, the 20 max post a day here doesn't help, but even still, I've not run into this level of editing on other threads. How do you expect anyone to keep up with ninja edits? If/when I get bored enough, I'll have to go back through your posts to see exactly how many were edited AFTER people already responded as the numbers (just from eyeballing) seem high. You can't blame people for missing things you've thrown in after they've already responded to you.

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I suppose we've had different experiences then, though I disagree that I "constantly edit" my OP. It has not been edited in days, and the basic OP remains intact. I have primarily only added in better wording and clarification of my beliefs, most of the important stuff in the OP (and the story completely) remain intact and as they were originally.

Edit: I'd also like to mention my 3rd and 4th posts on the thread again as well. They are clear signs of my beliefs too. My beliefs that I do clears if treated with respect and if outnumbered. I transplanted their logic into my OP, that's all. They have been there almost as long as my OP has been there.

Also, please do go back and look at that. I'm not denying that I edit a lot, I like to word things better if I think of a way to do it that didn't occur to me at the time of posting. I am denying that my posts have changed considerably after the edits though. I have not removed much from posts and have only mostly added in better wordings and points that I did not think of prior. A considerable amount of my edits also comes from formatting my posts to look better and proofreading as well. If you do go back and look at that though, make sure to note how many people have made repeat arguments in new posts when I have addressed those arguments already before the last edits on my posts too :P

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

SE did not choose the tank to be the tie breaker they choose a random player to be leader which is designated by the L next to their portrait in the player list. Ultimately it is the party leaders say and not some random dps, tank, or healer.

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So...you're essentially saying we should leave the most valuable opinion on pulling mobs to someone selected by RNG rather than leave it up to the person whose job is to pull mobs? I've seen it all now O.o.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Want some more examples of me not accusing people of not reading when they disagreed with me, Than? If you don't like these, I can find you some more! Or want me to post some proof that people really haven't been reading in many cases? I'll be happy to provide that too if you wish.

If you didn't see these posts...well, I think you know by now what I'm going to say :p

Hopefully you'll stop claiming that I accuse everyone who disagrees with me of not reading now. The proof that I don't is here, if you're willing to accept it.

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What If I saw the posts, but I still think the pattern stands overall? Every rule has its exceptions. :O Perhaps if you could tally up the number of disagreements to "you didn't read" vs disagreements to not mentioning reading? 41 pages of thread, maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part?

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

What If I saw the posts, but I still think the pattern stands overall? Every rule has its exceptions. :O Perhaps if you could tally up the number of disagreements to "you didn't read" vs disagreements to not mentioning reading? 41 pages of thread, maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part?

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It apparently is confirmation bias. Because I just provided you with proof that disagreeing with me does not provoke me to make accusations of not reading. Posting in a manner that shows reading was not done sufficiently does however.

One example of many:

Someone said this

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

As a matter of fact, if the two DPS want a full clear and the healer does not care...you are obligated, as the minority, to clear the whole dungeon for them (or ditch the group I guess).

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When I had already said this only one page earlier:

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Originally Posted by Adire

As I've already said, if people ask, I typically give them much more listening. If more people want exp than don't want it, I typically go along with it. If I didn't want to for whatever reason, I'd simply leave.

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You really seem inclined to believe that I am accusing everyone who disagrees with me of not reading. I am only accusing people of not reading when it's clear they've posted without reading or at least posted without understanding what they've read, in which case they should re-read anyways.

I've already given you proof of your assumptions being incorrect, here is another piece of proof. Let's see if you believe me now.

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Originally Posted by Adire

It apparently is confirmation bias. Because I just provided you with proof that disagreeing with me does not provoke me to make accusations of not reading. Posting in a manner that shows reading was not done sufficiently does however.

One example of many:

Someone said this



When I had already said this only one page earlier:




You really seem inclined to believe that I am accusing everyone who disagrees with me of not reading. I am only accusing people of not reading when it's clear they've posted without reading. I've already given you proof of that being incorrect, here is another piece of proof. Let's see if you believe me now.

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I'm sorely tempted to make a joke about not reading, but I'm not claiming it's a 100% thing, but a pattern. I even said that rules have their exceptions, and that I thought it was a pattern, not an absolute 100% occurrence.

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

I'm sorely tempted to make a joke about not reading, but I'm not claiming it's a 100% thing, but a pattern. I even said that rules have their exceptions, and that I thought it was a pattern, not an absolute 100% occurrence.

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Well, you're getting an inaccurate and biased idea from the pattern then, as I've proven. The "pattern" you should be focusing on isn't that I'm accusing people of not reading for disagreeing with me, it's that I'm accusing people for not reading who clearly haven't read.

I'm tempted to make another comment about not reading, but I'll be fussed at I'm sure :P. Either way, you're only seeing what you want to see.

Edit: I've also called people who disagreed with me reasonable. And I have clarified a few times even when people who agreed with me had a detail wrong, this shows I am advocating post accuracy from both sides, regardless of my wording choices. Will quote those times if necessary. More exceptions to your perceived pattern, so your pattern is pretty shaky.

If you're going to make a comment like this that shows your obvious bias

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

Don't forget that if they agreed though, they were calm, rational, and other such positive things. You were only not reading if you disagreed.

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Then try to cop out by saying you were only making an unbiased observation of a pattern, you should at least admit that I have good reason to suspect many people aren't reading. The many quotes I can provide attest to that being true. If these people had read, they wouldn't be saying things like the guy said in my last post. That isn't "disagreeing" with me, that is simply lacking knowledge of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Holy 1000 character limit.

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Where did I say my observation was unbiased? I even said it might be confirmation bias on my part. I even expressed interest in an actual count of the posts you made to try to clear that up.

I'm not trying to cop out of anything, let alone a forum post on the internet. You should probably relax, I'm not even insulting you like about half of the posters :P

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

Where did I say my observation was unbiased? I even said it might be confirmation bias on my part. I even expressed interest in an actual count of the posts you made to try to clear that up.

I'm not trying to cop out of anything, let alone a forum post on the internet. You should probably relax, I'm not even insulting you like about half of the posters :P

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You didn't say it, I haven't known many people to admit they're biased and continue justifying their bias though.

You saying you might have confirmation bias came off as sarcastic to me. If you didn't intend for it to be sarcastic, I apologize.

And I am relaxed :) I am just an assertive debater. It's pretty clear when my emotions are running high, like earlier in this thread. My posts now are not anything like those.

Accusing me of accusing people of not reading when they disagree with me, while throughout this thread I haven't done it at all for that reason, felt pretty insulting though.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

We are same Age

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You are wise man dude, use your wisdom on something more productive.
Getting involved into some childish rant is not worth your time.

I'm pretty surprised that the OP have so much time invested on this thread instead of playing the game itself. :)

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

You are wise man dude, use your wisdom on something more productive.
Getting involved into some childish rant is not worth your time.

I'm pretty surprised that the OP have so much time invested on this thread instead of playing the game itself. :)

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Multitasking is a thing you know :p.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Multitasking is a thing you know :p.

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Nice talent you got there...
Why don't you open a thread related with a guide, play style or some suggestion.
I'm more happy to join something like that.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

Nice talent you got there...
Why don't you open a thread related with a guide, play style or some suggestion.
I'm more happy to join something like that.

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I've made several threads of that sort. At least one suggestion one, others with lighthearted things. None of them got the attention this one got :p

My suggestion thread was even for a pretty good suggestion I think. Thought it would get a lot of support, but it died fast :/

Edit: If anyone else posts on the topic, I won't be available to respond until Monday due to upcoming Mother's Day vacation. Just wanted to let folks know.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

You are wise man dude, use your wisdom on something more productive.
Getting involved into some childish rant is not worth your time.

I'm pretty surprised that the OP have so much time invested on this thread instead of playing the game itself. :)

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Thank you for the compliment, it is much appreciated. You're not bad yourself. I just don't care for meaningless conflict, verbal or physical as it serves no purpose. "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." (Bertrand Russell). Hope to see you in an expert or the like sometime. Would be fun to meet you in game.

Funny how everyone against the op are dps's. When you have to wait for the queues, either kick the tank and hope you get a pushover that will bow to your whim, or suck it up and do your job. Unless you want to tank in your robe or leather armor.

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Originally Posted by Shug

Funny how everyone against the op are dps's. When you have to wait for the queues, either kick the tank and hope you get a pushover that will bow to your whim, or suck it up and do your job. Unless you want to tank in your robe or leather armor.

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Nah, I'll just queue as a tank or healer if I don't feel like waiting as a dps. Awesome how this game lets you play more than one role/job. Having said that, there isn't some great divide between the tank and the rest of the group. It isn't tank vs 3 other players here.

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Originally Posted by Shug

Funny how everyone against the op are dps's. When you have to wait for the queues, either kick the tank and hope you get a pushover that will bow to your whim, or suck it up and do your job. Unless you want to tank in your robe or leather armor.

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I was healing Stone Vigil once. One of the DPSes ran ahead of the tank and pulled the second boss. Tank gave him a strict talking-to for it. DPS' friend, a Black Mage, said rude things about the tank's ability to manage aggro, and then proceeded to say, "I can solo any boss."

I lol'd. And I lol'd even harder when the tank let him have the last boss of the run for about 10 seconds. The dragon nearly took his head off every time it bit him.

You may be wondering what my response has to do with this thread.

Absolutely nothing.

I get what you're trying to say, but you sabotaged your own argument by being entitled yourself, lol. DPS are entitled, tanks are entitled, and so are healers. You go in as a party, so act like one and discuss it before starting.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

I get what you're trying to say, but you sabotaged your own argument by being entitled yourself, lol. DPS are entitled, tanks are entitled, and so are healers. You go in as a party, so act like one and discuss it before starting.

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I am entitled to do my job as a tank if I am a tank. That is not true entitlement, as tanks are asking for no special privileges to pull, just doing their jobs. DPS are not entitled to do a tank's job if they aren't tanks. Believing themselves to have the right to is believing themselves to have special privileges to do things that are not within their job.

Glad to see that people who have posted here since I've gone have been more civil though. And no, this isn't sarcasm.

Entitled players, please stop being entitled?

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Entitled players, please stop being entitled?

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That's essentially what my OP is saying and what my posts throughout the thread are saying, despite the title's seeming otherwise.

In this situation, which mobs to be pulled was the disagreement. A tie in wishes ensued. The DPS and healer attempted to step out of their roles to forcefully receive their demands and ignore compromise by the DPS pulling mobs and the healer refusing to heal, while the tank (me) offered compromise and was rudely told no, and decided to continue doing my job.

It's not entitled or asking special privileges to do your job in the face of a deadlock if compromise is offered. It is however entitled to try to take over someone else's job or refuse to do your job to get what you want.

Just reminding folks of that :)

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Originally Posted by Shug

Funny how everyone against the op are dps's. When you have to wait for the queues, either kick the tank and hope you get a pushover that will bow to your whim, or suck it up and do your job. Unless you want to tank in your robe or leather armor.

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Just because of what the "main class" says on the forum? I tank lots of dungeons, as I implied in my prior post if I'm remembering right. OP is basically saying dps shouldn't be entitled, only tanks can be entitled, and that's kind of a jerk way of looking at it. I think everyone should try to get along. If someone in the party is a jerk, that's on them, not their role. There are lots of jerks from each role, because the players are still people, and people are jerks.

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Originally Posted by Adire

That's essentially what my OP is saying and what my posts throughout the thread are saying, despite the title's seeming otherwise.

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Probably should have written it and titled it differently then, right?

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

Probably should have written it and titled it differently then, right?

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Yep! As I've said before though, title editing is not possible. I also did not have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

And I possibly expected too much that people would value the content of my posts over the cover of the book. First impressions are important of course though, and I'd edit the title if I could.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

Just because of what the "main class" says on the forum? I tank lots of dungeons, as I implied in my prior post if I'm remembering right. OP is basically saying dps shouldn't be entitled, only tanks can be entitled, and that's kind of a jerk way of looking at it. I think everyone should try to get along. If someone in the party is a jerk, that's on them, not their role. There are lots of jerks from each role, because the players are still people, and people are jerks.

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Edit: Also, it's not asking for special privileges if a tank pulls or decides how to pull in a tie with no compromise as they are simply doing their job. It is asking special privileges however if a DPS pulls and a healer threatens to not heal if the tank doesn't submit to their demands.

I also do not condone tanks ignoring the majority or saying no to people who ask for clears like decent human beings, as mentioned in my OP and throughout the thread.

I'm not "basically saying DPS can't be entitled while tanks can be". You are misunderstanding or misreading if you think so. What I am saying is that you should treat people with respect, especially if you want something, and you should let tanks do their jobs, especially if no one can agree on anything.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Yep! As I've said before though, title editing is not possible. I also did not have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

And I possibly expected too much that people would value the content of my posts over the cover of the book. First impressions are important of course though, and I'd edit the title if I could.

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Oh, don't worry. I read the book. I just didn't think it was a best seller, that's all.

While you have good intentions (as shown in your opening statement), you don't exactly convey that well through your choice of words. A lot of the remarks you made really sounded more like backhanded comments to entitled players which would be all well and good, if you, yourself, didn't make it look like you were one too, given your pretentious and/or holier than thou attitude.

tl;dr: OP thinks they are right and everyone who disagrees is wrong, even though opinions aren't supposed to be right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

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I don't think that me thinking that tanks should make the call during a tie without compromise and acknowledging that they should be servants of the majority is holier than thou or pretentious, but okay. I don't think that defending myself against people who are wrongly making me out to be an awful person or misunderstanding me makes me either of those either, but okay. All I'm stressing is that DPS (and healers) should leave the tanking decisions up to the tank if no consensus can be found.

If people want to believe healers and DPS have as much right to break the tie by pulling and refusing to heal instead of tanks having the right to do their intended job, that's fine. I am not of that camp personally, and do not understand it, but each to their own. We'll see how the community becomes if this opinion is adopted by the majority.

I'd also like to see what special privileges I'm asking for to make me entitled. Asking that everyone do their jobs if we can't make a decision, yet being willing to compromise and do as asked if asked with respect does not make me entitled I think...

I've grown tired of responding to overly hostile and assumptive judgments about my character, so I'll just stop with what I said there. Sucks that this civility didn't last long before it descended back into blind character judgments.

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Originally Posted by Adire

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I don't think you seem to grasp the entire situation, but okay. You say you're not entitled and constantly call out other people for being entitled while showing repeated signs of being a hypocrite, but okay.

One thing we both can agree on though is I've grown tired of responding and I'll just stop with what I said there.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

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Mocking what I say now, eh? That's really unbecoming of someone calling others out on supposedly being "pretentious".

I also haven't called out anyone particular on this thread for being entitled and have said repeatedly that if I am a DPS or healer, I still give the tank the final say on things and ask nicely if I want them to do something. And I've responded fairly to people who disagree with me if it's clear they've read and understood what happened in the situation. And I've admitted that if given the chance, I'd go back and handle the situation a little differently despite not being the aggressor and being the only one to attempt compromise. I guess being a decent person means you're entitled nowadays, huh :p

Oh well, hope you have a nice day :)

OP: Sorry you've had such a hard time with runs with aggressive DPS. I main heal myself, so I've seen the abuse. However, on the flipside, when I go in as a DD, I at least try to ask politely if we can do a full clear. It doesn't hurt to ask. Think of it this way, though: a DPSer has just had to wait 30+ minutes to even get a chance to enter a dungeon. So literally, every ounce of extra XP they can squeeze out of the dungeon offsets the hellacious wait they've had to face. I'm not saying you weren't taking that into consideration, just please do keep that in mind. I was in two dungeon runs today where the tank completely ignored my (polite) requests to do full clears. I didn't push the issue, but it was incredibly frustrating, as we easily left 40,000 or more XP on the table, which I had to go grind on my own on hunting logs just to level up, because I damn well wasn't going to wait another half hour to queue up. It happens, just... ugh.

I've played every role and have leveled every job in the game to 50 except DRG and MNK (those are next!), so I totally understand both your frustration and theirs. Nobody likes pushy people in general. But you're right... people being jerks is the number one reason why tanks (and healers!) are so rare.

Anyways, hope you have greater success and fewer encounters with jerks. Good hunting!

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Originally Posted by EinherjarLucian

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Thank you for posting this :). I think we're a lot alike here. I main NIN and have 3, soon to be 4 DPS classes leveled to 50. I understand the frustration DPS have with the long queues and slow experience. If I want a clear, I always ask nicely, like you. This DPS was an exception though of course, he queued with his healer friend so therefore had a healer queue rather than a DPS queue.

If you had the run you mentioned with me as the tank, I would have given you the clear, because you asked rather than demanded. Politeness is such a rarity these days unfortunately...and to see so many people dogpile me for having a small bad reaction to being mistreated is quite disappointing, especially given that I did all I could to salvage things. So thank you for being understanding and non-biased. Like you, I understand the plight that DPS have all too well. Also like you, I do not treat tanks like crap because I feel bad for myself, so thank you for that too.

And I wish you the best of luck in your future runs as well :)

Personally I would have let him eat the mobs he pulled. Then probably left.

No-one has the right to demand that someone cater to their sole wants. Then trying to blackmail someone into getting their own way is pathetic. Two wrongs don't make a right, but neither does giving in to someone trying to bully you into doing what they want you to do isn't either.

Personally when I was levelling DPS jobs in DF, if the tank asked for clear whatever, I would respond that it is their choice, I'll go along with it. And as tank I'll ask if they want to get xp or just get through. But as soon as someone starts demanding something, their opinion becomes void. And I'll pull how the rest to, if they don't like it, they can leave. If they start blatently sabotaging the run, they get reported and kicked. If you don't stand up to them and show their actions have reactions they will not learn and continue to do the same.

Rare times I've had to kick someone, I've warned them in chat of their actions that is causing the kick. I don't just kick (unless someone is AFK for an age or DCd for a long time). I want them to know exactly why so they can adjust the next time.

There is a shortage of tanks in DF, we all know that, then demanding and blackmailing them into making them do what you want dissuades new tanks from continuing thus escalating the shortage problem.

Luckily enough it's been very rare, kinda countable on one hand from 100s of runs in DF that i've had to deal with entitled brats.

OP, you had a lot more tolerance than I would have had.

Which dungeon was this in? Depending on the dungeon, a full clear may or may not have been easily doable, and your answer to that will determine my answer to this thread.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Which dungeon was this in? Depending on the dungeon, a full clear may or may not have been easily doable, and your answer to that will determine my answer to this thread.

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Dzemael Darkhold.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

There is a shortage of tanks in DF, we all know that, then demanding and blackmailing them into making them do what you want dissuades new tanks from continuing thus escalating the shortage problem.

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Honestly I usually have this problem with tank. They think since they are the tank they control the run. If they want a full clear they are going to get one and if they don't they wont do it. Because they feel as the tank they control the pace and clear rate of the dungeon, the opinions of the other 3 ppl be damned. And there is little you can do about it since if you kick the tank you may never get a new one, so in the end the tank gets what the tank wants which just feeds the tank entitlement issues. I'm actually surprised we don't see more tanks just due to how easy they have it with queues and issues like this. I seldom, if ever see it from dps and only on occasion from a healer.

At the same time, dps shouldn't pull just because he wants more, I will let the pt get eatin, reset and boot that dps if they are like that. It should be a consensus.