Blue healer really makes the current 4 healers such a joke fest. While it may not outshine the normal dps classes it gives you a flow of what you want from a healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katish
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08-24-2023, 01:51 AMIceBlueNinja
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08-24-2023, 01:58 AMForsakenRoeSetting aside the fact that the two skills have different use-cases that incentivize having both bound, since Ruin 2 never has more potency than Ruin1/Broil you don't need to swap it out, so you can save yourself some effort thereQuote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Weird isn't it, you'd expect it to need more tools to work with, since the party is all casters and therefore take more damage than the average group (caster HP woes), and yet it functions well enough with ST heal (pom cure), AOE heal (strotram/exuviation), AOE Regen (angel snack, 2min CD), funny meme AOE heal with a ridiculous MP cost (White Wind), AOE shield (gobskin), and that's pretty much all that's needed, the rest can just be damage or utilityQuote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
If the current 'bis loadout' for BLU was added as three new jobs, BLU-Tank, BLU-Healer, and BLU-DPS, and they could queue into current content as 'unlimited job', I'd be maining BLU-Healer. The main loop of BLU for damage, after you do your burst, is already 'put up a 30s DOT, then spam one filler move' so it's not like that aspect of healer gameplay would be lost -
08-24-2023, 01:59 AMKatishAgreed. It's quite funny to compare current healers to blu healerQuote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
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08-24-2023, 07:11 AMSebazyCookie clicker is peak gameplay right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
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08-24-2023, 10:11 AMRenathrasRight, but that's my point, I think; you aren't going to be interested in WHM unless we completely change it to where it won't appeal to people who like it. And you already have AST, they do not. I mean, consider the (somewhat likely?) reverse case - that AST is changed to be simple like WHM next expansion in 7.0. We all suspect this already. That would make AST appeal more to players like me...but how will you feel if it happens? And this isn't theoretical since we both know it very well may. You're probably not going to be happy if the one healer you really enjoy is changed to where you don't enjoy it so that it will appeal to other people, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
That's how I feel with the insistence of changing WHM.
On the other hand, we could make proposals to AST that make it where it's a bit simpler but you still like it, but those changes wouldn't make someone like me want to try it out, yeah? But you could say to me then "Yes, but you have WHM, please don't take AST from me".
[QUOTE=ASkellington;6324905]Dia stacking is a worse decision simply because Dia is set and forget as is."
That's the point. ALL of the Healer DoTs are the same. They SHOULD all be different. And stacking to 60 is, AT WORST, no less good than current Dia. At best, it adds flexibility and some potential skill expression. But I've already argued this one to death so won't do it again. Likewise the Holy change is for people that like White Mage (not just FFXIV) lore and that Holy be a highly powerful spell.
.
Excog: The change is to remove Lustrate while retaining its general functionality. If you don't like it, we could just remove Lustrate and leave Excog as it is...but now what are you going to use as your AF dump since ED is on Faerie Gauge? Exactly.
Deploy: Charges don't help since they still have the same CD. Note that Deploy right now is made to match Recitation in CD so they can be used in tandem. This is intentional since it's designed to make SCH powerful while still being a big CD that requires some brainpower and timing to use correctly (skill expression \o/). So it would need its CD halved, but then people could just use it for a lot more frequent shield spreading, which could cause balance issues. I suspect that's why they won't do it. I get you like the PvP kit, but there's a reason for some PvP changes not applying to PvE. Broil 4 again reduces the single button spam (Art) in AOE. Again, this change was suggested explicitly to address players here complaining they just hit the same button over and over again.
Esuna traits: There's rarely any time a heal is completely unnecessary, and if it costs the same MP, there's no downside. There's no time you cast an Esuna where you think "Man, I REALLY don't want a free 10k or so of heal to go with this". Even the cases you don't need it, the only reason to complain is if you parse and worry about that overhealing number. And it wouldn't be relevant if that was the way to cleanse debuffs since all the healers would work that way. AND it wouldn't matter anyway since you never cleanse debuffs in high end content anymore to where this would even be an issue. Besides, "Slap a HoT" is no different in practice, though I guess we could have that as one of the Healer specific variants (didn't I suggest so? I think I did, but maybe not...)
Aetherpact/Collective: I was referring to the fact you never channel the full duration. You rarely do with Aetherpact, either (if you're worried about unnecessary healing, as you indicated above). You either stop it before its duration, you interrupt it with another Faerie Ability, or you forget about it and leave it on to where it only stops once the gauge is consumed (which lets other weaker party members get lower on health that you then have to expend more oGCDs to correct for if there's other damage going out). So it's net loss in all cases anyway. The toggle would be nice if not tied to a gauge and if it didn't conflict and cancel with other abilities.
Selene/Cards: No, Cards are nothing but balance because of Balance fishing. The other cards were useful, people just didn't want them. That's a bit different to Selene who was legitimately useless in a lot of cases and worst than Eos in most ways that mattered.
Energy Drain being decoupled... - is what the people want. And is the reason for the Excog change that you seem adamant at opposing, so that can be a useful AF dump if needed. So SCH WOULD have something to spend stacks on that isn't ED. Right now, it doesn't because of CDs. Soil has a CD, Excog has a CD, and Indom/Lustrate aren't useful if no one needs healing (Excog is almost always useful since the Tank if no one else will be taking damage within the next 45 sec and probably won't be at 100% health when it goes off, and Soil is always useful unless literally no one is taking literally any damage for a full 15 seconds).
"WHM has its roots and CNJ, it should retain them" - nah, it really shouldn't. CNJ is more of a Druid, White Mage in FF lore generally isn't. Even the Amdapori weren't. We don't see the Amdapori casting earth and water and air magics, we see them casting things like Banish and Holy. The Amdapori corpse in City of Amdapor (Hard) doesn't cast Stone or Aero. They will cast Cure and they will cast Holy as an damage spell (AOE). I couldn't get one to cast anything else smacking it with my autoattack or standing around letting it act under its own devices.
...which is to say, in the lore, WHMs aren't really CNJs. Conjury is a weakened version/form of White Magic, filtered through the Elementals. That is, it's power loaned to people by the Elementals, it isn't White Magic in its pure form, the Amdapori version would be. Likewise, what WHM has is a pure form of White Magic, unfiltered. Honestly, imo, WHM should never have HAD Stone or Aero in the first place. In most games, those are Black Magic, more rarely Blue Magic (or simply unavailable). Aero, for example:
White Magic in...: FF3
Black Magic in...: FF11, FF12, (also FF14 1.0 it was a THM spell), Mystic Quest, 4 Heroes of Light, Dissidia (used by Shantotto as well as Gabranth), Opera Omnia (again, Shantotto), Brave Exvius
Blue Magic in...: FF5, FF9
And is a Bishop and Sage ability in Tactics Advance.
...and if you want to expand a bit, Sora and Donald (both more Red Mages) in Kingdom Hearts can use their versions of Aero.
It's hardly a staple of White Magic, at any rate.
Similar story with Stone, though much less limited, it's been associated with White Mage in exactly one game in the series/expanded Square catalogue as far as I can tell, which is JUST FFXIV. Even in FF11, it was a Black Magic spell, and the one Black Mages started the game with as the lowest level elemental magic. To drive this point home, btw, Geomancers, Red Mages, Scholars (which, recall, had a "Black Mage stance", so to speak), and even Dark Knights could learn and use it, but WHITE Mages could not.
And in 1.0 - which IS still (mostly) canon - CNJ used all six elements, making them far more akin to Red Mages than to White Mages. It wasn't until 1.20 (not long before the game's end) that it became a Stone/Aero mage. Interestingly, both Stone 1/2 and Aero 1/2 became combo actions of the 1 then 2 of the element, with Stone 2's increasing damage and Aero 2's increasing accuracy, with the 2s being AOE when NOT used in the combo and converted to single target in the combo, if https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...IV_version_1.0) is to be believed. Meaning RDM's Aero2 is more loyal to 1.20s than WHM's in 2.0+ have ever been. (Would have been kinda interesting if Aero 3 had worked that way...)
So Stone/Aero are actually the ones that don't make sense based on the lore.
And you may doubt all you want - I always wanted WHM to be a holy caster and not a druid. It's one of the reasons I've long thought Geomancer should be added to the game as a healer, since it would actually MAKE SENSE for it to use earth, wind, and water magics (and possibly ice and lightning and fire...) where WHM doing so never did make sense.
...not to mention we have a Job in the game right now that DOES use earth and wind magic - Red Mage. Which is a complicated lore weirdness itself, though it makes some sense (it's a CNJ + THM + GLD/ROG, more or less, not a White Mage + Black Mage, since it was designed to not interfere with the aetherial balance of the world by using its own personal aether rather than that of the environment like BLM and WHM do.)
Again, there WERE people who wanted it at the time. Most had just given up and were jaded about it, like you guys are with healing overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Legitimately, plan to read this one later, but just wanted to poke a few things really quick:Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
1) Your sarcasm should have been directed at Askellington for the "sacrifice" comment, then. This is the kind of thing I mean when I point out you guys always dogpile and attack me and not each other. He was the one that introduced that language to the conversation, I adopted it to counter him, then you attacked me for the language instead of him.
2) Political example - No, it's not like that at all. It's like if 25% of people want to fund police, fire, health, and post respectively, but want their chosen one to get all the funds, and someone says "Why don't we just give each one 25% of the budget?"
3) It's odd that RDM uses high end White and Black Magic more faithfully than BLM or WHM. Though I will note that BLM at least DID use Flare as a high damage ability for a while, and does at several breakpoints while leveling. Found out (reading the above link) that Burst used to be a high end Lightning aspect spell belonging to pre-1.20 CNJ. Go figure.
4) Energy Drain - That as the reason people argued it had to be returned both times it was removed. While people here argue about skill expression, the overall community that wanted it thinks (or at least says they think) it's because of needing an AF dump. Which is why any SCH proposals I make have an AF dump that is just healing/mitigation related (either a barrier or Excog, for example). So yes, that's my take as well. And as for Bane - as noted, that's something I already dislike about ED. Why would I want more of it?
Hm...somewhat, yes. Not sure that's exactly right, but it's a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
Why WHM or SGE? AST and SCH are already that, so why not have them perform that duty that they're already performing?Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
Not really, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
Every Job will evolve to fit in with the combat system as it changes. If it doesn't change, then it's not really relevant. Evolve does not mean increase in complexity, though. It means shift to suit the environment.
That's...questionable. I think a better way of saying it is SOME Jobs have to. Most of the Tanks don't need to use half their kit for most content, just like Healers, and a number of DPS have things in their kits they also don't need to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
If by "evolving existing abilities" means "adding effects" (for example, if Plenary Indulgence got a partywide 5% or 10% damage reduction effect for the 10 sec duration), then yes, I agree.
Because I don't like DPSing and DPS rotations. Never have. I like healing, and I will do simple DPS actions if there's no healing needed. The only time I like damage rotations is on a damage dealer, and if that's something that can be done along with healing. I don't generally derive enjoyment from DPS rotations, and the more complex they are, the less I'm likely to enjoy them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
I don't want Healers turned into "DPS, but uses oGCD heals". I'd MUCH rather be using GCD heals, and honestly think that oGCD heals should be removed from the game. This is, in fact, how FFXIV was originally, both in the 1.X sense and in ARR. Odd as it sounds, BLU (in particular) or RDM (in a more loose sense, if you're actively using it for healing and only dealing damage when no one's taken any damage) being used as healers is closer to FFXIV original healing than any of the healers that exist today.
100% agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
For my part, I don't even have opposition to them making SOME Healers have more of a DPS rotational function (SCH did in ARR), but they shouldn't all, so that people that don't enjoy that don't get forced into that gameplay they don't enjoy. If I wanted to play a DPS that occasionally heals, I'd play RDM. (And I do play RDM...when that's what I want to do).
Note that I basically proposed this in my WHM suggestion - making Assize a 30 sec GCD (possibly with 2 charges, but I'm fine either way), as it would do just that. We could honestly make it a 15 sec GCD and cut the potency and healing in half. Assize may have been meant to be an Indom equivalent when introduced, but it's used as a DPS ability at this point in time, so do that. Bonus points: You aren't (re)adding another button, so no bloat. And it's not like smacking Assize on CD every 45 seconds is interesting or "skill"; using it to break up the 111 spam would be a more productive use of the button overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
As for the 1-2-3; I still think a Dualcast/Ready system would make more sense.
Agreed with this. It masks the "healers are bored since there's not enough healing needed", it doesn't fix that problem. And let's be real, people complaining about pushing Glare 84 times for 75% of their button presses are ALSO going to complain if it's Stone/Aero/Water 28 times each for 75% overall (25% each) of their button presses. That will be novel for all of one month (one tier tops) before people are asking for more and complaining about that, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Though for the record...I don't think Ruin 2 and Ruin 1 are interchangeable other than sorta Crystal Tower. 2 does less damage, it's just more useful for moving.
I do get you, though - too much button bloat means you just can't have everything on your bars. It's why I constantly talk about 32 abilities and how a Job should have 29 or so on average (with Sprint, LB, and potion for high end content or mount for normal play, that's 32 total, or two crossbar sets that you can swap between with a bumper tap on controller). Some having more is fine, others less. The idea that every Job needs more than 30 abilities is just silly.
BLU healer plays mostly like ARR WHM with some caveats. A pair of DoTs, some random damage CD, a dozen spells you never use, and 6 or so GCD heals and shields.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
A bit ironic, that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
The "so much better than healers" gameplay is...basically what the Healer Jobs are right now, just the heals are GCDs.
Kinda supports what I said - remove all oGCD heals from the game. The abilities can exist, just they have to be GCDs. That would change how people view this in a heartbeat. -
08-24-2023, 11:14 AMShurrikhanWith a few small accommodations... yeah, kinda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I still like having some oGCD heal options (such as via Aetherflow, ideally opposite both Energy Drain and Bane), and it's not the only way to deal with MP being irrelevant (there is absolutely no reason to only allow DRK MP costs on abilities), but just loosening the glut of Healers' output that can only be used on heals (especially, in such a low-damage-taken context that they make the earlier kit redundant) could go a long way.
This gets back to the fundamental question you still have yet to actually argue: Why would the matter of excess skill-ceiling be zero-sum?Quote:
2) Political example - No, it's not like that at all. It's like if 25% of people want to fund police, fire, health, and post respectively, but want their chosen one to get all the funds, and someone says "Why don't we just give each one 25% of the budget?"
You have yet to give a compelling argument for why it would be. Why does others having more kit available to them for highly diminished and merely excess rewards, which you are not thereby compelled to use any more than the portions of your kit that are already optional (and are already not particularly used by most players)-- necessarily make the experience worse for those who want to use them?
If I don't want to go into debt, does my credit cap increasing force me to do so, or does the addition remain just as irrelevant as what came before?
If I don't want to go to college and would have enough to live a happy (if not, all else considered, happier) life without it, does it being available hurt me?
Does it hurt me that there are pro basketball players who can do far more than I can when I just want to have a bit of fun with the basics and that's good enough for playing the only people I care to play with? -
08-24-2023, 02:36 PMASkellington
WHM has its roots in CNJ in this game. yes it should keep them. It really doesn't matter what it is outside of this game. BLU in FFXIV isn't exactly BLU elsewhere and we can say the same thing of other classes. The devs made the choice to give it elemental roots and the vast majority of people weren't asking for those roots to go away. You still have people asking for it back. So yes, they should remain.
You don't want to fully channel Collective because there's no reason to do so. Its not a net loss. You still get the HoT if you end it early.
Again, there's no reason you have provided that Selene couldn't get a new affect. People didn't ask for her to be deleted. They wanted her to gain something new. Just like people weren't asking for Balance to become all the cards - they wanted the cards to be changed and improved.
There are plenty of times I cast Esuna and don't want free healing. Not overhealing isn't even just a parse. Its healing in practice. Doesn't matter if there's a number tied to it or not. Esuna should stay as a role action. And heals should trait upgrade. They don't need to be tied to Esuna and I don't want them tied to Esuna. Its a dumb change. If you want to make Esuna less of a role skill and more individualized to the healer then change how Esuna removes the debuff. Don't slap a heal on it and say "fixed".
Deploy is still fine. Especially if you make it more apart of SCH's identity where it can spread other things than shield and DoT. Broil 4 is still a dumb decision to use. "Just to break up spamming AoW" when its the only single target ability you're going to use to do so and only ONCE or twice at that? Again, either use DT, use AoW since its, y'know AN AOE ATTACK or bring back Bane or a new AOE to spread it.
Energy Drain being decoupled... is what some people want. And even you admit that. You aren't going to satisfy everyone with this change. Your best bet to fix this isn't your design, because it just moves it to the Fey Gauge, but encounter design. There's no winning here.
I don't understand what your obsession with removing Lustrate is. Keep it. There's no reason to remove it. Doubly so if you're going to replace it with Aetherpact. If that's your justification for "removing it" then why not just move it to the Fey Gauge? Because its not a fairy skill? I'd argue current Aetherpact isn't either.
Making Dia stack adds NO skill expression. At all. Does SAM's 60s DoT give it skill expression? No. Does WAR and RPR's stacking buff give it skill expression? No. All it does is give you more time to fit in other parts of your rotation (which is barebones on all healers and something a LOT of people want fixed) And worse, it also gives 0 engagement. Something that we want MORE of in the healing role, not less. Dia proccing a Misery or Assize or <insert random DPS button here> would be better for engagement.
Moving all the heals onto the GCD doesn't fix anything.
- It doesn't make healing more engaging.
- It doesn't fix healers in solo content.
- It doesn't fix the fact we have too many heals.
- It doesn't fix the fact that the healers are too similar.
- It doesn't fix the fact that some heals are on too short of a cool down.
- It doesn't fix the fact that encounter design is trash and our kit doesn't reflect it.
- It makes all healers feeling the same WORSE because everything is on the GCD and feels like WHM.
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08-24-2023, 02:59 PMShurrikhanIn isolation, perhaps, but there's no reason to assume it'd be in isolation. Removing free healing would be nerf unless it came with commensurate opportunity gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
For instance, if that movement to GCD healing were to reduce a WHM's lv90 "free" (in reality: pre-allocated) healing output by 4000 free single-target potency and 2000 free AoE potency, then that's 8 GCDs each of Cure II and at least 2 AoE GCDs, which means that WHM's ppm would be due compensation across its GCDs, with a large portion of that (due to healing-per-moment bottlenecks and going from potentially zero opportunity cost to at least some 40+% of GCDs spent healing) ending up on healer attacks.
That in turn means you would see more deviation in healer throughput and gameplay according to their gear and familiarity with the given fight, even if not to the point of continuing never to touch a single GCD heal.
Moreover, that extra GCD involvement synergizes well with additional complexity added to offensive GCD actions, in that they create a combined cognitive load that is greater than the sum of its parts/halves when working together by having to make room for each other. The same goes also for MP management if we wanted to actually do something with that for a change (no, just bringing back its ARR presence/functionality wouldn't be much help).
Sorry to acktwally, but... kinda. Which is far more than can be said for anything permitted to stack its duration (e.g., Surging Tempest or Huton).Quote:
Does SAM's 60s DoT give it skill expression?
The fact that it's 60s means that it can allow for myriad GCD tiers. It's also the only thing salvaging SAM's minute-to-minute complexities now that TG and MKSS both have 2 charges and are therefore pooled into the 2-minute bursts and everything else of note was pushed to a 2-minute CD directly.
By not being stackable, Higanbana still has a very particular window of use, and one which can easily invite mistakes the surrounding rotation leading up to it is mis-managed, since it obliges a particular state (dropping all Sen, ideally via Midare) exactly 3-4 GCDs prior (which is just time enough to regenerate 1 and only 1 Sen). Whereas any stackable element... just degrades to a maintenance buff that you cap quickly to keep out of the way for when you want the bigger damage/gauge gen of your non-maintenance combo.
A maintenance skill with a bundled situational utility (like Dia's instant cast) wouldn't fall to as low a skill floor as the likes of Surging Tempest and Huton, but it would also fall from a higher ceiling, ultimately being slightly more shallowed out proportionately, even if not to such a pitiful result. -
08-24-2023, 03:12 PMASkellingtonI'm pretty sure my points still stands. Especially #2 and the last 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
We can have oGCD heals, they need to be balanced accordingly (with fewer, MP-cost, and longer recast timers)
As for SAM, you know the class better than I do. But I still sit that it doesn't further engagement what so ever.
Dia shouldn't be 60, Dia shouldn't stack. You want Dia to be more unique than the other 3 DoTs? Imo have it do something else.
With AST for instance you could add a skill to prolong (Time Dilation still says Hi devs), or shorten for a detonate.
Dia as mention could proc something.
Different effects > differing durations is my point. -
08-24-2023, 04:43 PMSebazyAnd with that, I'm completely done with you. You're so desperate for validation for someone to agree with your thinly veiled hatred of raiders and challenging content that you'll turn to a fresh alt that somehow understands the game and the systems around it to even less of a degree than you, openly feeling that the majority of the game should be left to rot (Which is actually the worst idea in this thread FYI) just because healing in leveling roulette can be a decent time (Which no one is disputing). And to top it off, at least you make some kind of an effort to back up your narrative on occasion, this alt won't even backup the age of the account with their achievements, let alone cite a single source for their various lofty claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Both of you love a good narrative and both of you will merrily sit in the flames whilst that debunked narrative is aflame around you. Figures you'd agree. ;) -
08-24-2023, 05:18 PMSebazy
And to clarify since certain individuals will try to run away with a false narrative:
A 1-2-3 combo by itself isn't the solution here. It's just bloat and doesn't break up the current tedium. Trying to push a narrative that this is the only solution on the table is flat out disingenuous.
Increasing incoming damage to the point where it actually taxes our existing kits isn't viable in mainstream content. Some time back I debunked some claims about this demonstrating just how much healing a WHM can dish out with Medica II and Lilies alone. Spoiler, it's a LOT, you'd need to have old school Savage HPS checks in dungeons and 24 mans. The ultimate irony is that I'd absolutely love for that to happen. I can promise you without a doubt that you wouldn't though. Think for a moment why so many of the healers here that are written off as 'dps mains' view Godka as one of the best Savage turns this game as ever had. Spoiler, it wasn't because it was a DPS centric fight for us.
It's going to take so much more than the above to freshen up the current state of endgame healing IMO:
We need faster paced bosses that don't routinely sit there for upwards of 30 seconds channeling casts and doing literally zero damage. Here's looking at you Rubicante.
We need more damage being thrown at the tank at all times coupled with the return of both auto attack crits and non telegraphed mini tank busters so that we have to pay attention to the tanks HP bars all the time, not just at key specific moments.
The recipe for dungeons needs a radical fresh pair of eyes. Give us more mid fight adds, give us funky agro, give us mobs that need to be CC'd, give us stuff to actually cleanse. We've had most of these things at various stages of the game's life in the past. Why have they all been forgotten now?
Healer synergy with DPS needs a ground up rethink, why are our buffing options so bland and limited now? Loads of healers don't want to sit there being a Poundland DPS job all day, why do we have 4 jobs and not a single one of them can spend their GCDs buffing the group? Oh right now I remember why...
Sure, leveling roulette can be fun, but that doesn't change what a dumpster fire the casual endgame has turned into. It needs to be addressed to help ease player retention. -
08-24-2023, 08:35 PMForsakenRoeJust this change alone would be a massive start. Example, if we have a boss with a mini tankbuster that happens every 15-20s ish, that forces the tank to use their 25s on it (downtime helps smooth out the gap). Meaning that said tank no longer has a 25s to use on every damn TB. GNBs can get 'almost-literally Nebula' from their 25s if they time it right, because it's 15%+15%. 28ish% mitigation on any given tankbuster or raidwide, and then it ALSO has the Excog effect on top! Sheltron's at 15%+15% now too, and also heals for 1000p over 12s. For comparison, that's the total healing from Medica 2. Being able to just throw 'Medica 2' on yourself every 25ish seconds (autoattack means the timer's a bit weird) is just obscene self-sustain. Could have been 500p over 12s and part of me would say 'wow that's quite a lot of healing for a non-healer'. And then of course, Warrior, SE's favorite child, gets to have 1200p every 25s via Bloodwhetting, plus 400p of shield, plus 1200 from Equilibrium on a 60s CD, plus 1500 via the HOT on Equilibrium, plus 20% effectively when you pop Thrill of Battle and both your Current/Max HP go up (but when the Max HP wears off, the current remains)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Poundland deserves better than this comparison /sQuote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I don't see the irony you are, I see 'BLU is able to function as a healer, with just a core kit of 7ish GCD healing-related skills. The rest of the kit can be damage, utility, emotes, whatever.' This just puts the lie to the current healer design, and the additions we got in EW for some of them. Why did we need Lilybell or Macrocosmos, when we can already solve all the healing required with the kit we already have? Why add Aquaveil or Exaltation when the tanks never seem to take enough damage for them to actually feel 'needed'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Consider a theoretical WHM styled after what BLU heals with, which gets:
Cure1, 500p/500mp cost, at 30 becomes Cure2/700p/500mp, at 86 becomes 800p
Medica1, 250p AOE/1000mp, becomes Medica2/400p/1000mp at 45
Cure3, 500p AOE/100p Regen on all allies for 15s, 60s CD
Stoneskin, 250p AOE shield, 800mp
Salvation, 1000p AOE heal, 3000mp cost
Absolution, 400p shortrange AOE, removes one debuff, 700mp
Healing covered, now you've got like 18 spaces to add interesting things to the class, instead of having three separate versions of Cure 2, and two versions of Medica 1 -
08-25-2023, 01:31 AMChonkGoblinSuprem
I never said a 123 rotation was the only option, but it is an absolutely terrible option that needs to be squelched from the discussion with prejudice.
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08-25-2023, 06:57 AMSebazyAnd yet you're the only one that's repeatedly dragged a 123 rotation into the discussion over the last few days. Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
There are far more interesting ways to engage healers: buffs and augments, procs, charges, positionals, cleaves etcetc the list goes on. The Lily system's recent success clearly demonstrates that adding a bit of short CD interkit synergy is far more interesting than just throwing us more ungabunga potency on a 2 minute cooldown. -
08-25-2023, 11:08 AMRenathrasMhm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Because it's not my argument.
My argument is some people like the playstyle that exists.
My argument is that I believe it's bad practice to remove playstyles that exist.
See: SMN, MCH, AST, need I go on?
YOUR argument has to be why that cannot be allowed. Moreover, I'm not arguing for a change (well, I'm arguing for 3 changes, but you agree with those parts...). You're the one arguing for a complete change. Ceteris paribus, status quo is what is maintained. Therefore, the onus is on you, not I, to argue conclusively your position and in a way that precludes any alternatives.
You have yet to give a compelling argument for why one Healer Job cannot remain the same.
Except it doesn't. Chicken or the egg. It's the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Conjury has its roots in White Magic in this game. White Magic does not have its roots in Conjury. It's origin hasn't been explicitly revealed, but it was probably somewhat akin to Somanoutics (SGE):
"White magic, the arcane art of succor, was conceived eras past that the world might know comfort. Alas, man began perverting its powers for self-gain, and by his wickedness brought about the Sixth Umbral catastrophe. Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals."
It was conceived to heal and comfort. It was neither conceived by nor from the Elementals, nor was its origin connected to elemental magics. It is in the midst of a revival via the Elementals, hence Conjury, but White Magic ITSELF is not elemental in nature.
CNJ was invented by the Elementals as a partial allowance for mortals to be allowed to use some forms of White Magic after it was outlawed by both mortals and the Elementals. So are the Padjali White Mages, though they're actually biologically engineered (for lack of a better term) by the Elementals to be allowed to do so. You do have people asking for it back, but you also have people asking for Energy Drain to be decoupled from Aetherflow.
They wanted all the cards to have Balance equivalent effects. The got them having Balance identical effects as a result.
You cast Esuna and don't want healing...okay? Not relevant. There are plenty of times the Tank is at 100% health. Do you get mad that Kardia overheals them? If you use a HoT on someone, do you get mad if it overheals them? Do you get mad if you use a mitigation and it wasn't necessary for the party to survive? I don't think you personally getting annoyed at someone getting all of 10k health when you Esuna them (pretty much every debuff in the game people get these days comes from an attack, meaning by definition they will not be at 100% health) is a good reason not to do it. It's also a REALLY weird heal to die on. "As a healer, I don't want my ability to heal people!" We could, of course, just remove Esuna from the game. That would achieve the same effect. But I would THINK you'd be more opposed to that...I can't be sure since some of you guys have really counterintuitive views on some things...
I do think Deploy as more of SCH's identity would be neat. That said, Broil or Art spreading DoTs isn't "dumb". "only once or twice" is still breaking up the one button spam. I swear, you guys will argue against me on literally anything. While saying you hate one button spam, most of you here will argue against any proposal I make that actually reduces it. It's ridiculous.
Completely irrelevant, as we could say this about LITERALLY anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
WHM to have elemental spells back?
SCH to have DoTs back?
Healers to have damage rotations?
...are what some people want. That's literally true of literally everything. There's probably not a single thing that would garner 100% support. EVERYthing will be a thing that some people want. This is an irrelevant argument. You "aren't going to satisfy everyone" with ANY change. My idea is still the best one since it simultaneously preserves some of what people like about it (skill expression through reducing healing to optimize damage), preserves the reason people say they need it (something to spend AF on, since we now have introduced other AF dumps), and does so while meeting the request of the many that it be decoupled since SCH has neat AF abilities that people feel locked out of using. Imagine if AST could cast Earthly Star OR Cards, but not both. Where you could only use one or the other. But maybe you like both. Maybe you think both are part of AST's identity. TOO BAD! They share a resource and you get one or the other, not both. Wouldn't that suck? Yes. Yes that would suck.
"There's no reason to remove it." - I literally gave you the reason to remove it. Two reasons, in fact. You can say "I don't agree with your reasons for removing it", but you can't say "There's no reason to remove it". The latter is a lie. You should stop lying. It doesn't help your case.
"Making Dia stack adds NO skill expression." - Making Dia stack adds skill expression. Man! It's a wonderful world when I can just SAY THINGS and them be true and negate your argument. I don't need to give reasons, type out long posts, I can just SAY IT and it's true, right? Right? That's how this works? I can ignore anything you say by just SAYING it's not true and I'm automatically right? Wow, that's awesome!
"Does SAM's 60s DoT..." - SAM's DoT isn't a 30 sec DoT that can stack. Therefore, this is irrelevant. Does NIN or WAR's ability to stack their self-buff to 60 sec NOT add skill expression? Yes. Yes it does. Does it add A LOT? Not really. But does it add SOME? Yes. Yes it does add skill expression. DIA procing Misery or Assize would be laughably OP. And also dumb. That's a really dumb suggestion.
[/u]Moving all the heals onto the GCD fixes everything.[/u] It makes healing more engaging. It fixes healers in solo content. It fixes the fact we have too many heals. It fixes the fact that the healers are too similar. It fixes the fact that some heals are on too short of a cool down. It fixes the fact that encounter design is trash and our kit doesn't reflect it. It makes all healers feel different and MUCH BETTER because everything is on the GCD having a higher skill expression and eliminating one-button spam.
Man, I've been doing this wrong all this time! Just SAYING things are true and not giving reasons or discussion to support that makes debating SO much easier!
.
Also: You call a lot of things dumb, btw.
Maybe you're the one with dumb ideas.
Or, maybe, we should not be throwing around calling each other's ideas dumb. How about we try that instead?
Ieeeeheee...agree...with Shurrikhan. Okay, I still disagree on the stacking DoT thing, but...never mind that! Don't want to ruin the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Love you, too, Sebazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
That's some impressive psychoanalysis there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Impressively wrong, mind you. But when someone does something epically bad, it can still be impressive. It's like Fable - whether Hero or Villain, the Guild only cares that you make a mark on the world. Your take there is like a massive train wreck; terribly bad, but still impressive in its sheer badness.
Break down the actual comment:
Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is bad.
No other [role]needs to pay close attention to and often quickly target different members of the party to apply heals or Esuna.
Endgame content has a bunch of instant kill mechanics, but leveling roulette (and other content) does not, meaning healing is actually (gasp!) engaging in them, especially before you get your end-game oGCD kit.
Pressing three buttons in sequence is hardly better than pressing one button.
...that last being something even you agree with:
While it's nice to get validation, I'm not "desperate" for it. I said I 100% agree...with a position...that I've agreed with for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I've said MYSELF time and again that Healers (or at least SOME Healers) shouldn't have a DPS rotation, that this is specifically because they have to react to other player mistakes and keep an eye on party health, that not all content in the game devalues healing, and that a 1-2-3 rotation doesn't fix the problem of bored players anyway.
Like, you're saying you're "done with me" for me agreeing WITH MY OWN POSITION.
The hell is wrong with you?
EDIT2:
People aren't arguing this for "mainstream content". They're arguing this for Savage and Ultimates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
And...I agree?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I've said for a long time now that damage needs to be more continuous - and not FATAL; more continuous but smaller so that it can be healed through but requires consistent healing upkeep and can't be met by 1 or 2 oGCDs used every 30-45 sec or so. I've also said that bosses should continue to attack while casting, that autoattacks should actually be threatening, etc.
I've said all this myself. You've agreed with me on all this as we both hold that position.
For Dungeons, we disagree, since I draw a line at making mainstream content cater to people who already have content that caters to them (Savage, Ultimate, and now also Criterion Savage), though I do think that other things happening (CC, adds, debuffs we can Esuna that aren't just "you messed up on the 2nd boss of Manalis" checks). We also used to have MP management and lack of oGCD heals so that we actually had to engage with our GCD kit.
"casual endgame" isn't a dumpster fire. It actually seems to be fine. The issue right now is midcore endgame. As in...there isn't any.
Expert Roulette isn't what needs fixing "for player retention". We need some kind of content between MSQ and Extreme difficulty and we don't have one.
Cure1, 500p/500mp cost, at 30 becomes Cure2/700p/500mp, at 86 becomes 800pQuote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Medica1, 250p AOE/1000mp, becomes 400p at 45
Medica 2, 500p AOE/100p Regen on all allies for 15s, 60s CD
Stoneskin, 250p AOE shield, 800mp
Afflatus Rapture, 1000p AOE heal, 3000mp cost
Assize, 400p shortrange AOE, removes one debuff, 700mp
Not really. The modern game is based on mitigation a ton. And non-BLU parties don't have everyone with Diamondback to cover that, nor would Stoneskin in this treatment solve that problem. BLU healing is also rather UNresponsive to mistakes, which is why it's considered (a) side content and (b) generally something more hardcore people do during downtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
But I was more talking about its damage kit, which is ROUGHLY similar to the 4 green icon Jobs we have. That's what I found ironic.
Mostly agreed. I do think there could be one specific way to make it work, but I don't think people want that. And I don't think it would be amazing gameplay, it just wouldn't be completely terrible. But I think most proposals are, indeed, the terrible forms.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
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08-25-2023, 11:50 AMShurrikhanYou've got a bit of a double-negative going on there, so let's be doubly clear: No, Huton and Surging Tempest being able to stack did/does not provide a net increase to skill expression. The addition of Armor Crush simply replaced two forms of optimization (one pretty obvious, one more obscure) with single new (equally obvious) one, while Surging Tempest reduced skill gap and mostly axed a former means of optimization (maximizing the value of each Storm's Eye / minimizing wasted volume).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
They softened punishment slightly, which can be a good thing depending on the relative severity of that punishment (how much else the punishment, or worrying about avoiding it, would otherwise overwhelm), but they both reduced skill expression -- Armor Crush slightly relative to optimizing Huton itself, and Surging Tempest's stacking reducing it pretty darn noticeably. Neither one was awful, if only because neither's contexts were that well set up for the earlier optimizations (little ability to resync one's macrorotation on WAR, and few use cases for differently timed Hutons on NIN with no-clip optimizations being notoriously dependent on particular amounts of ping on NIN), but neither was truly a step up, especially compared to just polishing the contexts to make the less obvious optimizations more visible and rewarding instead of axing them outright.
Agreed, though I would have to assume that more applicable here would be a single Blood Lily or Assize CDR... both of which still would likely reduce skill expression in that their anti-synergies would further punish holding Assize for more than just damage (reducing its use cases / what optimizations are worth worrying about for most players) and would delay Lily heals until Misery can be cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Previous examples included a Thundercloud-like effect, so we may as well sim that, too. Depending on whether it simply deals bonus damage equal to the remaining ticks on the replaced effect or is just an outright double-damage hit like the original Thundercloud, such would not necessarily be OP, but would also slightly reduce skill expression, as that randomization would degrade deliberate fight-specific planning and interaction with other means of mobility (Regen, that Lilies are quite limited, etc.).
In short: More on-paper stuff is not always more in-practice depth. It's often the opposite. Depth requires complexity, but that can often come from just putting very simple tools in the right arrangement with each other, rather than requiring any fat tooltip. Not all complexity is obvious, and not all complexity makes depth. The lasting gameplay lies in the implications on permissible gambles and what considerations are made relevant to each other, not just in what things happen to be co-affected without any change to optimization or consideration nor just due to each tool's amount of reading required or effects attached. -
08-25-2023, 01:20 PMRenathrasAgree to disagree, and I've already stated why in depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Except he was very, very obviously not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The way I read his original post was "DPS rotation", not "123". Because the words he posted were...well...
While he goes on to INCLUDE 123, "DPS rotation" is more broad than that. These are two clauses:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
1) DPS rotations on Healers are bad because they have other things to do that other roles do not, so other roles filling their excess mental space with a damage rotation makes sense but wouldn't for Healers (I've literally made this argument before, as have others, as has Yoshi P, meaning this is the official stated Dev perspective at this time),
2) And as a specific case, a 123 damage rotation, in particular, is no better than a single button one (and this is a position pretty much everyone in this thread seems to agree on to at least some degree and even most pro-damage people have noted would be insufficient for their desires as well).
I think you're deciding for the other poster what he was trying to say, and doing so through the lens of your ideology, which is inclined already to see it in the worst possible light. You could argue the same for me, but as he seems to agree with me, the way I read his post is the way I would intend it, and thus is more likely the way he did as well. But he can defend himself, so I don't really have any need to other than on this:
I'm not sure if it's a troll, honestly (though I could see it being a caricature of my own position done by someone trying to be too clever by half). Believe it or not, some people do legitimately think that way. I disagree with a number of his positions - note I didn't quote all of his posts and say I agree (in particular, I don't think removing high end content is wise and would argue against it) - so you can't say I was agreeing with all of his positions when I didn't say I was. Nor can you guild by association (fallacy) me to him as I didn't do so and we have no association. ...and...that's a fallacy anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I agreed with the specific points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Didn't you JUST SAY in that other thread that it's okay to agree with people on SPECIFIC POINTS where you (in that case, Supersnow) think that they're right while not agreeing with them on everything?
Like...you literally just made that argument above your posting this HB block reply. You DO realize that, right?
I do agree with that. But this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
As do I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
To my perspective, you seem not to realize what everyone wants. You know what you and those like you want, and you think you know what others want and how to offer it to them while not actually compromising. The problem is, what you think they want isn't what they actually want, which is why you and I disagree. You think you're offering a solution we can all agree on when you aren't, because you fundamentally misunderstand what the contra position is, and thus your offer doesn't meet their needs at all.
The reason I'm quick to compromise is because I don't want to be and am not inflexible (despite Ty's insistence to the contrary) and...well...do what you do, not actually offering people anything they want. I also recognize that no solution will make everyone completely happy, so the best we can hope for is something that gives everyone at least something they want. I also try to work my proposals into things that work within the confines of the existing world in which we live, not the world I wish we lived in instead. Like you, I'd MUCH prefer a world where we do more healing and have completely different encounter design - so much so, I advocate for it all the time. But I propose compromises and solutions (my WHM and SCH ideas, my 4 Healers Model) in light of what we presently have. When the Devs actually show a willingness to change encounter design, then I may shift proposals more into that direction (although I already KINDA have, though with less specificity - the oGCD change, for one...) -
08-25-2023, 03:06 PMShurrikhanYou are literally quoting words from that other thread... within the wrong link (this thread's post-ID instead). My quote doesn't make mention of some "other thread"; this is the other/wrong thread. You've misplaced your reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And again, I merely pointed out (in that thread that you've instead linked as this one) why one would have a negative reaction to that 'agreement' --i.e., as would otherwise seem a contradiction-- after they had already made that very same point to that very same person.
Which, in early ARR was increasingly... the 4-man level-cap dungeons. On release, Amdapor Keep absolutely was harder than WP, which was harder than CM. Pharos Sirius was then harder than AK (maybe a little too large a step, but still).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And each directly and indirectly (most efficient way to gather the 300 mythic tomes per week) gave gear that would help one get into what was at the time the game's most difficult content (as ARR Savage 6-9 hadn't yet released yet as Title-reward content, similar to today's Ultimate).
Raids didn't originally have an explicit casual mode, but we added it. Why can't we do the same for dungeons, but as an option bringing back that culled difficulty span? Why would it be a bad thing to (again) offer some midcore content within 4-mans in that 18-40 minute range in run length that actually feel more cohesive and varied (and less finnicky/"gotcha") than Criterions and actually fill that midcore spot gear-wise instead of being tuned seemingly around the tier's near-BiS? -
08-25-2023, 04:35 PMForsakenRoeThe words 'healing covered' referred to the actual 'healing', the act of restoring HP. Presumably, there would be a cohealer in content that demands mitigations, who could have an equally basic core kit, but tuned towards mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As for BLU's damage, WHM's burst window is that it uses Glare faster, spends a Misery, weaves ONE damaging OGCD (Assize) and reapplies it's DOT. BLU's (as healer) is any of like 5 different primal burst skills, Tingle/Whistle/Triple Trident as a pseudo 123, probably something like Bristle>Matra Magic, and while it does have a 30s DOT, said DOT also has extra fluff because you can Bristle and snapshot it at a higher damage value. Having one filler move like Sonic Boom or Sharp Knife to spam does not make it 'roughly similar'. In fact, you could theoretically even change that to be 1-2 combos for your filler (Peripheral Synthesis > Mustard Bomb, Aqua Breath>High Voltage), or even adapt which filler you're using out of three based on Libra's debuff, should you decide to use Libra
And it's been discussed why a 'stack to 60s' effect would not 'add complexity'. In fact, I previously reasoned that it'd just be 'you refresh twice in raidbuffs, and then play as normal' but now I've been reminded, there's literally zero loss to just refresh it twice at the 1min mark too. Each minute, it's a pseudo 1-1-2 combo of Dia, Dia, Misery. And then you forget the DOT exists till the next minute. It'd be so uninteractive it'd be difficult to justify keeping the DOT in the kit. But we can't remove it from the kit, because we're rapidly running out of kit to even play with, and SE doesn't seem to remove things to replace them with something else to fill the gap, so we'd end up with WHM gameplay being nothing but Glare, and refunding itself via Misery when it has to heal. God that sounds awful to me, but I guess there's some people that would enjoy that. Lucky for them, they can play that right now by just not putting Dia on their bars
Look at it from this POV for a second: I am midcore, I haven't done the latest ultimates, but I have done one (TEA) in the expansion when it was current, so I have at least a bit of experience in on-content-Ultimate (not just overgearing the hell out of UWU). You have done a bit of Savage, mostly the first couple of floors, I assume to get a ring drop from the first so that you don't have to use double tome rings (I also dislike when the Balance recommends ilvl downgrades to dodge Piety).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If you're a self-professed casual, who has not been mid/hardcore, you would find it impossible to truly know what direction the 'mid/hardcore' would want without directly asking them. I would find it difficult to know what casuals would want without directly asking them, but it's not 'impossible', because I was once a casual, back in ARR/HW. I can think back to times when I was not as good at the game, and think 'would that version of me struggle to adapt to X change?' And given that I adapted back then to having one extra DOT (Combust/C2 were seperate) on AST, on top of Cleric Stance, on top of the Cards and Royal Road, I am quite sure that the suggestion of 'Dia duration lowered to 12s, Banish as 15s CD GCD' is not going to overload people's mental thresholds, except for those who have become SO ingrained in the current system, that they would shut their minds to any change whatsoever. In which case, adding 'more healing required' would equally screw them over, because now they can't just netflix their way through the content, they have to react to things
Take Aetherfont's ilvl setup, the ilvl to get in is 605, the gear that drops is 625, the ilvl sync will be 660, probably. But the tome gear we can currently get, is 650! So why not have the 'Sastasha - Hard' style retelling of dungeons return, but actually be harder (ie justify the existence of those CC buttons like Repose), and the 6.4 one drops say, 640 gear? That'd make it equal in ILVL to the new crafted set, but anyone who's serious about Savage would not spam this, but get the crafted instead because A: time and B: pentameldsQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Criterion would be a perfectly fine location to add the gear drops to as well if they wanted to avoid clogging the dev pipeline with 'another dungeon to design'. Trade those coins for something beyond just materia and the 100 for the mount -
08-25-2023, 05:22 PMSebazyI'm not the one going '100% agree' to a fairly obvious troll who's openly claimed that their only experience in this game is levelling dungeons and is merrily wading into discussions about endgame based on the likes of Doma Castle. But don't let me take away that dopamine hit of someone actually siding with you for a change :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Farming current 24 mans as a healer is the most boring content this game has to offer, I'm not even exaggerating when I say that cookie clicker gives a bigger dopamine hit than the likes of healing Aglaia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
https://i.imgur.com/IDgCzHL.png
That's ALL incoming damage as a non MT from Byregot across a ~5 minute fight.
Dumpster fire. -
08-25-2023, 11:20 PMForsakenRoeIf this was one of your runs, I hope you pressed Rapture/COpp/Indom/Ixochole at those two times and experienced the exhilaration of doing 'good heal work'Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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08-26-2023, 02:28 AMASkellington
Do explain how moving all GCD heals fix solo content.
They 100% don't fix healer engagement. I'm just as engage at 50 as I am at 90. Where I've had the MOST engagement of my class is running Orbonne at 70. Where I have *gasp* a mixture of GCD and oGCD heals. Moving everything to the GCD doesn't fix a Twelvesdamn thing and I feel sorry for you if you think it does. All it does is move all my problems to the GCD. And make the GCD that much more bloated.
I've already given three long essays over the course of a year how it doesn't.
I also gave a reason why Dia stacking isn't good skill expression AND also poor engagement. You've yet to provide either.
The fact of the matter is FROM ARR to ShB WHM has been using elemental attacks with Aero and Stone. The vast majority of people didn't WANT them to change to Dia and Glare and got them anyway and want them back. Or are you gonna dispute that claim? Here in comes the question:
If we're moving this to AST because they have a similar issue - AST had 6 different cards, they now have 1 and seals system. Do we give AST mains back the old card system with changes or keep the new one because people like it?
Its not the same because effects vs gameplay mechanic but... it is the same in that "old mains didn't ask for this change; new mains don't care/want to keep it". For WHM the ideal solution (if not effect glams which we all know are likely going to be on the Mog Station lmao) is to keep both, which you can do. There's no reason Aero III can't come back, and there's also no reason for a Stone + Water attack can't come in as well (perhaps with Water nourishing the lily or blood lily).
For AST, I already gave the devs a way to use the current seals system as a buffing mechanic back in Shb that they could've used for EW after they decoupled Divination from it. They didn't use it, so at this point, I don't want to keep it at all. They had 2 tries, I'm not willing to give them another. Fix the card issue.
Comparing Kardia/HoT to an Esuna+Heal is a why moment. I can't control if Kardia heals a tank unless I want to micromanage taking it off and on. Which if that was the gimmick of SGE cool but its not. I also can't control if a HoT ticks into overheal. I CAN control if I cast Esuna on a target who's at 100% hp. Doubly so if Esuna is 10k. Doom is an example of debuff that you can Esuna and takes 0 damage. Only other debuffs you'd want to Esuna are Pacify/Silence (which usually also means no damage taken) and Paralysis/Stun. Which either can or cannot give damage depending on the boss. In no situation would I want to Esuna a DoT when I am offered a HoT.
So with all of that, why would I want Esuna to also heal? I wouldn't. And yes, I do get upset that I go to mitigate something and the shield isn't consumed. It means I need to fix my timing.
Ok, you can call my ideas dumb. You aren't calling me dumb so I don't care. Its called an opinion. You don't have to like mine and I don't have to like yours. If I want to say from my perspective your idea is a dumb change, I can. You can either take my opinion or ignore it. I call a LOT of the dev's decisions dumb and garbage too. You aren't unique.
I'll reword my statement then, which I did in my post already but you refuse to focus on that with your replies for some reason: why are you going to remove Lustrate just to change it into Aetherpact instead of just MOVING Lustrate to the Fey Gauge? This is why I call the change dumb. Because it looks like you wanted to remove Lustrate, realize it has a purpose and then said, "well Aetherpact has its issues with channeling, lets turn it into a mini Lustrate".
And to clarify, your reasons for removing Lustrate are "no reasons" because they aren't good enough reasons. Its a hyperbole. Not a lie. If you want to call it a lie, sure. Either way I'm questioning the purpose of your change.
Glad to see you find the idea of making spreading DoTs (and potential HoTs) an interesting direction for SCH. Its one I'd like for them to play into as that seems like it could be fun and its literally RIGHT THERE. Seriously devs, go look at your PvP designs. Its not hard to bring some of that over to PvE.
Broil last I checked was a single target attack, not an AOE. You may not think its dumb, but I sure AF do that in this one instance I want to use a single target ability to spread my DoTs instead of a separate one or another AOE attack. I don't see why you're so against Bane coming back especially if you don't want DT to fill its void.
Further, yes, I do want to see breaking of the 1 or 7 (since that's my aoe button) spam. While your changes technically do that, I can still voice that I don't like HOW you're doing it. -
08-26-2023, 01:02 PMRenathrasI posted in this thread. Where the "troll" was posting. What are you on about? Your HB in that thread was referencing this thread, so I replied in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
What I'm pointing out is that in THAT thread, you pointed out that someone can agree with anyone on a specific point and that isn't an endorsement of all that other person's views across all posts and threads.
.
"Which, in early ARR" - and in early ARR, WHM had no functional oGCD healing and both WHM and SCH had to GCD heal all the time and frequently not go into Cleric or even not damage at all. This is another case of our disagreement due to you trying to work in what you wish things were and me dealing in what things are. Criterion is taking the place of that kind of content, it just isn't worth what it should be and doesn't have a Roulette system, which is relevant to most people.
Raids didn't have an explicit hard mode, either. There was one set of Savage fights (though debateably closer to Ultimate). Again, this isn't relevant unless you have an inside line with one of the main Devs and they're telling you they're considering restoring ARR systems?
Roe, I mean this in the nicest way possible - if you're doing Ultimates (content that only around 5% of the playerbase does), then you aren't midcore anymore, you're passed that. Midcore are more people like me who dabble in Savages and mostly do stuff like Extremes or similar content like BA or DRSav. I know the openers and optimal rotations of all the Jobs I play, have decked out tome gear with generally correct melds for the Jobs I play, practice on target dummies, clear Extremes on patch, am aware of the meta, post on the forums, and so on/etc. I tend towards more casual specifically because I don't have a Static to do things with (because I really don't like having to schedule play activities in life), and so I like activities that can be soloed or drop-in/drop-out/chill partying (Eureka/Bozja/Hunt Trains) type content, but in terms of general skill, game knowledge, and activities, I'm in line with what are PROBABLY the general domain of "midcore".Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I don't find it "impossible", I see what people say. I DISAGREE that what they want would be good for the game overall. I THINK that difficult content should be compartmentalized and not spill over to the entire rest of the game. I also think this of midcore into casual/MSQ content, too. And I think the reverse; I don't think Ultimates should be things people are clearing left and right as Ice Mages, either. So I'm consistent on that both ways.
I've said before turn Dia into a GCD with a CD (say 12 sec) and Assize as a GCD with a CD (say 15 sec). We'd get this same thing. And people here don't like such proposals. Because the more buttons isn't really what is desired, it's...something else.
.
As for content:
MSQ stuff should always be casual, full stop. That means by necessity, unless they start adding extra dungeons, Expert Roulettes are going to be casual content. At level cap we get 2 "optional" dungeons, but the rest of Expert through the expansion will be MSQ, so at this point, that ship has sailed. That's what Criterion is at this point - or could/should be - they just need to make it an efficient way of grinding tomes for people that would rather have more difficult grinds. (Though I do agree that revisiting old dungeons and seeing the story advance is cool, and am sad they seem to have abandoned that concept...)
You're perilously close to getting a hearty guffaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
You don't have to listen, but I'll say it anyway:
I was agreeing with a STATEMENT. As Shurrikhan said in the very next thread to this one when Supersnow agreed with me in opposition to someone else, a person can agree with a single statement from another person when they think that person is correct and it does not mean they are doing something untoward nor that they are endorsing everything that other person said. If you bothered to keep reading, you MIGHT have noticed I've quoted that guy on several things and said I think he was wrong about various things.
So if THAT'S what you're pissy about, you need to check yourself.
Moreover, there are other people here who frequently agree with me, and I've long since gotten over needing a "dopamine hit" of agreement. Something you wouldn't even know about anyway, considering you could post a picture of baby vomit and get likes here since you have the "right politics" to this clique. Indeed, simply posting anything at all attacking me will get someone AT LEAST 3, usually more than 5, and sometimes double digit likes. As you can see from your post there. So don't pretend you know what I do or don't want or need.
That's not what dumpster fires are. Also, I find that amusing, since I've yet to do an Aglaia run where I don't have to consistently either raise people or do a lot of healing for the damage they take. Then again, I don't run illegal against the TOS parsers, so...I don't have a pretty picture to post of it. I'll just have to screenshot a run sometime with all the times my raise macro went off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I mean, I do all MSQ on healers and solo Deep Dungeons on healers. I don't have an issue with them, so them needing a "fix" is subjective. I can't imagine anything short of a DPSer level rotation that would likely please you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
And I don't mean that to be snippy, solo content is generally going to be a relatively simplistic affair compared to anything super engaging. Like ask yourself the question, what was the last solo instance encounter that you REALLY felt engaged on to the point you could see yourself wanting to do it again and again and again?
"fix solo content" isn't going to be something we CAN do. Anything we could do for you to do that would break the game for large swaths of "everyone else" most likely.
On the other hand, it WOULD fix challenging content. GCD healing, especially with cast times, actually requires...well...effort. Beyond merely making a healing plan and then weaving in one of dozens of no-cost oGCDs.
.
Stacking Dia: Okay, NO. You guys need to stop this bullshit. I gave you reasons - a LOT of reasons. Instead of ANY. OF. YOU. saying why my reasons were wrong, you gave your own reasons for why stacking wouldn't add skill expression...but simply ignored any and all arguments I made. But even if you disagree with my arguments I DEFINITELY MADE THEM. So no, you don't get to say "You've yet to provide either.". I ABSOLUTELY provided them. You just don't like/disagree with them. That'd be like if you brought someone burgers for food and they insisted they wanted tacos and that you brought them no food. You pointing out you DID, in fact, bring them food, just not the food they wanted, and them then saying "No you didn't! You brought no food!" would make them a liar.
So you're a liar, and I've no reason to reply to the rest.
I've given arguments, you don't get to say I haven't, and you don't get to just SAY things and them be accepted. Screw that. -
08-26-2023, 01:38 PMShurrikhanExactly what I said. You literally took a quote from another thread and stuck inside the quote brackets of a post from this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Which has literally... what... to do with whether would be a waste of time to allow for dungeons / Expert Roulette to be of enjoyable use to a larger range of players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Once again (until such time as dungeons are dying from such low participant counts that any sort of additional options beyond just the one form each of Leveling and Expert Roulette would kill off that content type), it isn't zero sum.
You've given no reason why middle-of-the-road difficulty shouldn't be available to 4-man content even while 8-man boss-fights alone (a narrower category) support everything from the most casual level of difficulty to the hardest.
There's a large difference between wanting difficult content to "spill over" to the rest of the game and simply wanting to see a return to some of what we already previously had --before the combined effects of nerfs even to casual content, job simplification, and potency creep-- or wanting to widen the range of engagement available to different content types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Which were separately addressed before dealing with the two that actually mattered (that all others were seemingly meant to support) -- (A) whether it would actually increase skill expression, and (B) whether it would, in net effect, create more compelling gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You've mentioned that it can be more easily used for movement, since misuse can't typically thereby punish the player if movement requirements are infrequent (since you essentially get n freebies per minute). But that does not necessarily make the design more engaging, just as splitting heals into at-cost and no-cost, skipping over all in between, does not necessarily make design more engaging. (It is usually the opposite.)
You've claimed that it increases the required foresight. But merely offsetting a portion of that decision-making as foolproof does not increased required foresight; it just means that it's no longer rewarded until you pass that threshold, returning to what can be punished.
More centrally, you claimed that it increases skill expression. But neither adding nor (net) enhancing considerations, all while offsetting, simplifying, and devaluing what remains... does not add skill expression. It at best just gives more slack, removing much of that skill expression where the utility mismanaged is rarely needed while giving the players who would initially benefit more to hang themselves with when that utility is needed.
Again, I don't think it would be the worst thing to happen, but, especially if the duration per application were significantly shorter than now, it would be a downgrade to even the current design, let alone other suggestions here. -
08-26-2023, 02:07 PMShurrikhanTo be fair, unless increasing the GCD healing required and enhancing downtime gameplay were mutually exclusive (I'm of course assuming here that the latter would help healer solo-content, since that seems to me very likely)... that's not something his suggestion needs to deal with. They're mostly still two separate issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Well, unless "increasing healing requirements" bundles with it a "don't increase the depth of downtime tools" and/or "don't consolidate tool bloat in favor of more versatile tools and/or broader agency". Though, the same would go for any plan to increase depth of downtime tools that specifically asks not to increase healing requirements or adjust the existing/base healing tools for more agency. Etc., etc.
I suspect both would be useful. -
08-26-2023, 03:03 PMASkellingtonIt usually does bundle with not increasing the depths of downtime tools. Not increasing healing requirements isn't something that I advocate for, but I don't see SE removing the bloat of our healing kits nor increasing damage enough to USE them. "Because of new players".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'm beyond fed up with "new players" being the sole reason for everything from upping healing requirements and fixing our objectively shitty rotation and lack of either extra dps tools to break up the spam or debuffs and buffs being useful and used or even MANA MANAGEMENT. -
08-26-2023, 03:43 PMRein_eon_OsborneI really feel most, if not all bosses should more or less share Nald'thal's damage profile. Sure they don't do much more, but it's still well spaced between each unavoidable damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I find it abhorrent on first two bosses when the only unavoidable damage comes with 3m (Byregot's Ordeal of Thunder) to 6m (Rhalgr's Lightning Reign, we won't see this one anymore RIP) spacing from the previous one.
You don't even need to use that illegal tool yourself to find said pretty pic/data. Simply search any random Aglaia logs that's littered across said website and filter out a random non-tanks' damage taken profile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
They're free to grab. -
08-26-2023, 04:57 PMSebazyDo you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Or is this just your heresay again? :rolleyes: -
08-26-2023, 07:23 PMForsakenRoeI'm not 'doing' ultimates, I've 'done' ultimates previously, hence the distinction I tried to make. I wouldn't expect anyone to consider me a hardcore player if I've not either completed, or am currently progging, TOP and DSR. Hence, 'upper end of midcore' probably fits betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Because the contention is very variable from job to job. On SCH for example, you'd have a point. It's very full on buttons and not many can be consolidated without losing an aspect of them like their versatility. But WHM still has space on the hotbar before it reaches the magical '32' ideal limit of actions, and that's before considering that several actions can be consolidated due to them being redundant/direct upgrades, like Cure1/Cure2, or Medica1/Medica2. I think people look at a suggestion like 'instead of adding Banish as a 15s CD GCD, just make Assize a 15s CD GCD so we don't need to add a new button' and go 'well, why not add a new button, instead of just shifting around what we currently have?' It's not like WHM is suffering for hotbar real estate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As for Dia being a CD, it's not a terrible idea, but it undeniably loses something in the transition from a DOT to a burst. You can purposely clip a DOT if you need to, to gain a mobility option at a lower damage penalty than if you purposely hold a burst damage CD for mobility. Plus, you might not know in advance that you need that mobility, the DOT allows you to react on the fly to that, the hard CD locks you out. You lose the gameplay factor of 'will the enemy live long enough for the reapplication of this DOT to be a gain over using my filler'. You lose the ability to multi-DOT, being as having several charges to simulate multi-DOTing just means you can throw them all into one target for a DPS gain instead. You also write off the potential for any DOT-interactive gameplay design, such as extension, collapsing for instant damage, or 'if the enemy has X DOT applied, Y has {additional effect}' pseudo-combos.
And in the end, having it as a burst of damage instead of a DOT doesn't really 'benefit' or 'hinder' the player. Whether it's 150+70 per tick for 12s, or 430 as a burst with a 12s CD, the gameplay on single target is the same: press it once per 12s. If tracking the DOT is hard, that's a UI issue you can fix by moving where the 'enemy status bar' is on your HUD. If you can't tell whether the DOT's up, it can be argued that it's equally possible someone will not notice that their Dia Blast is off CD and ready to use, because that'd be a UI issue too. Plus, if Assize were 15s burst and Dia were 12s burst, wouldn't your next move just be 'oh the total ppm for Assize is X, and the total for Dia is Y, why not just have one of the two, with a ppm equal to the current total of the two, to consolidate them since they're functionally identical', I'd even say 'thats kinda justified' since I'm saying the same for Cure1/2 and Medica1/2. Having one as a DOT and one as a burst keeps the two distinct in their damage profiles
tldr I'm not massively against 'Dia is a burst damage' but I do think it would lose a lot of potential design space for the ability to do so, even if said design space is never expanded on because SE be SE -
08-27-2023, 02:12 AMRenathrasWhatever. /10charsQuote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Seriously, I'm not going to bother engaging with you if you're going to be like this. There's no point. I'm disappointed in you, honestly. I always thought you were better than to be so brash to grief. But I was wrong.
...see folks? I do admit when I'm wrong, at least now and again. -
08-27-2023, 02:47 AMRenathrasNothing, because they're different arguments. Expert/dungeons seem to be popular with a lot of the plaayerbase as it is. Regardless, as I noted, MSQ will probably never be compelling to hardcore players. That's just the reality of the situation. There probably aren't a lot of 99 BLM's that salivate over their next Aetherfont run. "No no, guys, I can't come to Ultimate tonight. I've been invited...to run Aetherfont! It's WAY more fun!" And as noted, what you consider "engaging" isn't a universal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
No, the above was "you're trying to use ARR to justify something and I'm pointing out that's a violation of ceteris paribus".
Again, different arguments. But I WILL address them:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
SAME AS 4 HEALERS MODEL: Not all content is for everyone and excluding people from a game they already play or making them play it in a way they don't want to by robbing them of their current existing gameplay is bad. Imagine if, say, Baldur's Gate 3 had a major DLC...that turned it into a FPS. Some people would like that, many would not. I'm pretty confident in that, because it essentially happened once - Star Wars Galaxies. They went from being a super in-depth skill based MMO to a "dumb" MMO where you literally clicked the mouse to shoot at people like a shooter-lite. (It wasn't QUITE an FPS, but it WAS removing a gameplay that people enjoyed). Hell, you know this from ARR/HW going to ShB which removed things YOU like. So don't pretend like that isn't a problem, we all know it is.
We have an answer ALREADY as I've pointed to several times - Criterion.
Or more precisely, a Criterion-esque system. Criterion has shown that they can make a piece of content and make it for both solo players, casual 4 man groups, and hardcore 4 man groups. They could add another difficulty between the two to make a better solo/casual/midcore/hardcore system and bam! You have what you want, you just don't get to drag everyone else into it against their will kicking and screaming. I'm honestly somewhat disturbed by how flippant some folks are about doing something that other players would feel harmed by to said players against their will. Doubly so since you should know better given what was done to you.
Why is it a zero sum game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Why not both? Criterion as a system gives us that - multiple difficulties of the same content. Why not do that instead? Is it because it would allow the casuals to keep playing the game and you don't want them to be able to for some reason? You get onto me for assuming zero-sum things that aren't, but you're doing so here. There's zero reason we can't have current difficulty Expert roulettes (though a name change would probably be in order, but hell, just make it "Level 90 roulettes", it would open the pool and make it not just the same 2 for months on end anyway...) while having a midcore and a hardcore difficulty of the same content. It's not like the Devs are overtaxed on workload right now such that they can't do it, as it would effectively replace Criterion, which is already harder work than this would be.
No, they weren't. You guys posited counters, and I presented arguments against them. A debate is not one side has an opening statement, the other side counters, and the discussion is over. But besides that, the point I was making is Askellington is trying to say there WERE no arguments, which is a lie and belittling and needs to stop. I went into depth at how it, AT WORST, is no more braindead than what we have now (don't be stupid; we both know pressing a button once every 30 seconds isn't some kind of high level galaxy brain system), and AT BEST, it would allow people that want to optimize, capture buff effects, plan for future movement, or plan for future healing (e.g. if you know you'll need to use more GCDs for healing and so want to keep your DoTs in order for the duration) to express kill over those who mindlessly either press it every 30 sec (the current system) or mindlessly press it twice every 60. There's no world where it's WORSE than the current system, and at worst, it's a side-grade, not a down-grade. At best, it's an improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
But, again, I've made these arguments and they fall on deaf ears because you guys would rather keep a thing you complain about endlessly than entertain a change that came from my mouth, so I'm not going to waste my breath continuing to argue the case to brick walls.
Mhm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
They're different issues. Though, again, 4 Healers Model wouldn't even have all the Healers work this way, meaning some would not for people that wanted to engage with a different playstyle instead. Simple.
https://i.imgur.com/wyAEF71.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
Average player - DNC with a 48 - on fight I picked out of a hat (Halone).
Seems to be more than "two damage spikes over an entire fight".
Forgive me, but it appears Sebazy is cherrypicking. Btw, I can show you some others from that fight or other fights, but the point will be similar. You CAN say it should be more than that, but that's hardly "dumpster fire" of no damage for entire fights other than 2 spikes. Even Nophica in that fight had more going on.
What is the estimated amount of people that have cleared *any* ultimate? It's like 15% or so, give or take 5, isn't it? That's still going to be on the top end. Granted, we need to clearly define "causal/midcore/hardcore" at that point. For example, if we did a 33/34/33 split, it's clearly on the top. If we do a 50/30/20 split...well, it's still on the top but there might be some bleed into upper midcore. We really need solid definitions first...Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Remember that Role Actions, Sprint, Limit Break, and Potion count. WHM is currently sitting at 33 abilities (as is SGE). WHM and SGE, by this treatment, both have 1 too many buttons. AST has 3 or 4 (I forget which) and SCH has one more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Note also, as I posted recently in that thread, ARR WHM had 27. Twenty-Seven. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6326578
That's without the +3, so Sprint/LB/Pot brings us up to 30, which even has 2 slots to spare for Mount (full time) and an Ether or something. Handy!
Regardless, there's no reason imo to have Assize if we have Banish, since it's filling the same concept, just more often, and Assize is just a boring "hit on CD" anyway, so making it actually roll the GCD breaks up existing spam without taking up a new ability "just because". The only issue with Dia being a CD is you can't multidot, honestly. Though just making it an AOE fixes that anyway. And, bonus points, makes it more distinct from the other healers. Again a worthwhile goal. Your arguments for why Dia being a DoT is better are almost the same as my arguments for Dia stacking to 60 sec, and everyone here insists that is bad.
DoT interactive gameplay CAN happen...but let's be real, not only is it probably not going to happen for healers in general, if it WERE to happy, WHM would be the last of the healer Jobs the Devs consider for it. And besides that, your proposal didn't suggest any, so I have no reason to incorporate that possibility into my analysis since it wasn't part of your proposal...
I agree there are UI issues. But I've yet to find a solution. Hell, even when I have a boss as my Focus Target, there are times where it won't display my DoT on them, even though I can look up at the health bar and see it clearly has time left. DoTs are just REALLY bad with the native UI.
I do think, as I say all the time, that the goal should be to make the 4 healer Jobs play differently from each other, and "WHM gets a shorter duration Eu Dosis and Plegma" isn't really "different" anyway, and SGE arguably does it better. -
08-27-2023, 04:08 AMShurrikhanFfs...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
<< Can we please allow dungeons a range of difficulties (as already seen in boss-fights across Leveling, Normal, Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate)? We can have both the narrow current use for dungeons as is and a use for dungeons with broader use and greater longevity atop that.
>> No! Not all content should be for everyone! But here, let me suggest an analog of... my 4 Healer Model. In it, we'll give dungeons... multiple difficulties!
You've seen his counters already, so you know full well what he meant -- that you had yet to argue convincingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Calling that "belittling" while assuming that only an idiot could fail to be thus convinced, let alone purposely leveraging a semantic interpretation over what meaning was already clear is... ironic, to say the least.
These have little to nothing to do with each other. It feels like you're reading concurrence and just running wherever you want with it, relevance be damned.Quote:
Mhm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Though, again, 4 Healers Model wouldn't even have all the Healers work this way, meaning some would not for people that wanted to engage with a different playstyle instead. Simple.
Did you not want increased healing requirements? Did you not want MP to actually be a real mechanic? In that design scheme, do you honestly expect Assize would remain "hit on CD"? (It is, btw, already not quite that, unless there's no GCD heal that could be removed through better timing Assize AND both enrage would be hit from the difference in bonus potency from Assize eventually becoming desynced.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Even then... look at any other kit. If we limited every kit to only one "hit on CD" ability, how large do you think they would be?
You seem to be arguing that we can't have X because you don't (want to optimize the skill enough to) see differences between it and Y, despite that even if it were thus redundant... that still wouldn't necessarily be an issue.
More precisely:- No, they're already not quite the same.
- They certainly wouldn't be the same if we made the background changes you, yourself, suggested.
- Even if they were "too much" alike, why would that necessitate the removal of one instead of simply diversifying them further?
- Why the double-standard, anyways? Why must WHM be limited to only one action that could be (if oversimplified / poorly contextualized) treated as "hit-on-CD" if any offensive component is involved (even if there's a contextually varied component, too, as in Assize)? What of the likes of Lucid Dreaming or other "hit-on-CD"s without offensive components? What of other kits with their metric ton of "hit on CDs"?
I'm not a huge fan of true "hit on CDs", but whether they're actually that or not seems to be a bit outside your scope here anyways, so I have no idea whether I can even concur.
No, they're not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
One is wholly granular minus the tiny offset of Dia's direct damage, with a clear reward timing that would cause even "hit on CD" to cause interaction with the rest of the kit through space made, especially under more intensive healing requirements and a functional MP mechanic. Yours hugely offsets any risk-reward of the DoT while removing the need to make room for it at a specific time. Rather than Dia both helping and being helped by the intelligent use of one's other spells, it becomes simply a mobility tool that awkwardly comes at no cost, no cost, no cost, cost, while replacing that timing with per-minute piecework maintenance.
A simple rigid CD meanwhile, has no flexibility. Which is why a DoT is, again, not a rigid CD; DoTs have that flexibility, allowing their bundled utility to frequently outweigh the potency waste they'd face in themselves from early use.
That's something which lowers the floor required, since a single use doesn't necessitate (but still rewards) thinking ahead to when the duration will complete, while then increasing its skill ceiling by both opening up that utility and having the skill's optimization depend on both its potency value in itself and on that bundled utility.
For now, don't show others status effects on your Focus Target status effects if that's where you're primarily tracking your DoT from. And if using the target Status Effects, just leave it so far away from the rest of your necessary information that you have trouble tracking it. The default UI was fine even for maintaining, say, some 10 DoTs across 5 targets on HW Bard (no-stance over the gather, WM, IJ, AoE with constant RoD resets).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Yes, it could get even easier. If the team was willing to do even half of what third-party addons already allow, we'd also be able to make sure that your debuffs were shown at the start and in customizable order or even separately from everyone else's, and to show the DoT duration remaining on the (last selected) enemy over the DoT icon itself, etc., as to make them easier to track. Heck, we could use double-targets, where when we target the Focus Target, it swaps places with our former primary Target, and allow for heals to be automatically trickle-down to the first ally target among mouseover->->Field->Target->Focus->TargetofTarget, and attacks to do the same for enemies. But it's already not difficult to deal with DoTs. -
08-27-2023, 05:18 AMForsakenRoeThat's a problem (not one SE seems to mind, considering the state of some other classes). But sure. Make Cure 1 upgrade to Cure 2, button saved. Medica 1 into Medica 2, button saved. Now we're at (in the same order as job guide, with lower-rank forms removed):Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Raise
Cure II
Presence of Mind
Regen
Cure III
Medica II
Benediction
Afflatus Solace
Asylum
Assize
Thin Air
Tetragrammaton
Divine Benison
Plenary Indulgence
Dia
Afflatus Misery
Afflatus Rapture
Temperance
Glare III
Holy III
Aquaveil
Liturgy of the Bell
Repose (lmao)
Esuna
Swiftcast
Lucid Dreaming
Surecast
Rescue
Sprint
LB
Potion
By my count, 31. So assuming that 32 is the number to aim for I'd only need to consolidate/remove one more skill, to make room for both Banish and BOTE. If it weren't hamfisted into a role quest, Repose is on lifesupport as it is, I'd say get rid of that. Or Aquaveil, since it's kinda just surplus to requirements and it's effect could have been a trait on Benison while the shield holds. Besides that though, I'm not sure why 32 is the sacred number, because SE sure don't seem to think it is. Look at SAM, for example. If 32 was the gold standard, Shoha 2's addition throws several wrenches in the theory
Actually, if it matters so much, I just had a great idea: Cure 3 can function as that powerful gauge spender heal, and later upgrade to a new form, becoming damage neutral in the process. Now we can keep Repose and Aquaveil yippeee
Can you just enlighten me real quick since I've not played the class in a couple of weeks, what's the difference between Ruby, Topaz, and Emerald Rite?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Yep, they're basically the same thing, because both Phlegma and Banish would be 'damage on enemy' with a CD, and E.Dosis and Dia are both 'damage over time'. Ignore the part where Dia has upfront damage, or how Phlegma is AOE and Banish is not, or their differing CDs, or how they interact with the rest of the kit in their respective pitchesQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
IDK if third party does it, but as I mocked up somewhere else, just having your DOTs (and only your DOTs) show on the Enemy Emnity Party Enemy List (whatever it's called, the little one tanks used to see aggro levels before aggro got effectively deleted) would help a ton. Cos if you see one enemy on there has it's DOT fall off, you can target it using that exact same list, and reapply it there and thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
-
08-27-2023, 05:28 AMShurrikhanThey do that, too, yeah. Filterable to just DoTs, all your own Status Effects, or to also include things like Mug, Stun, etc. All with durations, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Cast times and GCD length. Those ones at least have some variance, even if only Ruby has any differing gameplay implications at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Less than whether or they're also heals or not, purely direct damage or not, etc., as per Assize vs. Dia, but with a better context they could feel distinct from each other. -
08-27-2023, 07:26 AMkyyninen_kirahvi1. Explain. What am I not understanding? This still leaves things open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
2. I disagree about AST and SCH but it doesn't really matter. It could also be a mystery 5th healer job. Just pure theoretical speech.
3. Then I kind of don't understand where the problem is. Some times more complexity comes naturally, sometimes it's pushed. Imo, healers need a bit more to be enjoyable. Not my thing to say how much or how to increase it.
4. DPS still have more incentives to at least try them. I admit I don't know anything about tanking (it's a role I detest).
5. Not necessarily just adding effects but increasing potency and changing action name.
I don't really like DPSing either, and honestly I have no desire to deal damage as healer. However, I feel now there are extremely limited measures to continue healer evolution unless Square changes their designs. Things don't need to be as hard as in HW time but I wish they'd go back a bit. Adding more heals is moot if there is no need to use the actions outside of hc content or when your party sucks extremely. A job that can only get engagement when your party sucks is bad design but too tight requrements will kill interest in the role as whole. It's a tightrope act that needs constant chekiing and tuning. Now it feels like Square isn't interested.
The only healer I advocate for more DPS actions is sage. It was supposed to be the DPS healer, but isn't really working as such when most of it's efficient healing doesn't come from dealing damage. -
08-27-2023, 07:43 AMSebazyQuick to dish it out, not so quick to take it back in kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Here's hoping that one day you realise why everyone is jumping on your case.
*spoilers* it's not everyone else that's the problem. -
08-27-2023, 08:01 AMRenathrasExcept I'm not "quick to dish it out": Find the last post I called one of you a troll, "comic relief", or insulted your ability to postulate ideas or support them with argument or evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Not everyone is jumping on my case. The only other person that mentioned me agreeing with whatshisname was Shurrikhan, trying to explain you being pissy about it. Literally no one else has mentioned it and no one has done a 180 from generally knolwedgeable cordiality to abject trolling as you have in all of one post from being the former to being the latter over me quoting someone - something I do quite frequently - saying I agree with them - something else I do quite frequently.
So no, in this case, it's just you. -
08-27-2023, 08:09 AMZairava
I mostly just lurk here in the healer forums, for various reasons, one will be listed here, but I want to put in a little input.
I've recognized that, in general in MMO's, I'm an atrocious healer. It just does not resonate or click with me and that's fine.
This is the only MMO that has changed that, except that even being a lower-than-average healer, I still get more bored than playing tank somehow in casual content playing as a healer. I dabbled with healing a bit in EX content back in ShB, but mostly was met with the same boredom.
To me, that's saying something. Healing isn't for me, it doesn't need to appeal or be easily playable to the players like me. It doesn't need to be so ridiculously easy that someone as low-grade at healing like me feels absolutely no pressure when the party isn't eating dirt -
08-27-2023, 08:17 AMRenathrasYes, we'll call them Criterion. Didn't I just say this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Firstly, that's not an analogue. Ironically, the analogue for the 4 Healer Model would be what you're asking for - that we have "a range of difficulties across different dungeons". The problem is you can't very well have a roulette that works that way. Imagine if the Trial roulette could give you any normal, Hard, or Extreme trial in the game, and also could give you a normal or Savage version of any 8 man. That's what you'd be asking for. I'm saying to have all the difficulties, but have separate roulettes fr them, so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The other thing is that healer Jobs aren't a roulette. You don't que up and then get pooped out into an instance in one chosen by RNG.
I'M NOT A MIND READER LIKE YOU ARE. I don't tell people what they are thinking. I read the words they post. He could have said something like "I've seen your arguments, but I disagree with them." Which was, btw, the thing I said in my reply he could have said (but didn't). If someone says "You gave NO argument!", I shouldn't be attacked for thinking the person is insisting I have no argument. Besides which, I DID argue it convincingly, you guys just disagree with it because you don't WANT it because you think any change I propose makes things easier and is therefore disallowed - even when, as I argued, it does not. In the worst possible analysis, what I proposed does the thing you guys say you always want, lowers skill floor and raises skill ceiling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
But, AGAIN, I'm not going to keep arguing such a minor point for something I don't even care that much about with brick walls.
Its belittling because I DID present arguments, and without even arguing against them, much less paying attention to my own counter-arguments, he said I presented NONE. Again, I'm not a mind reader like you are/claim to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Some healers more GCD based, some more oGCD based. Yes, it's part of the concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Different concepts/different arguments. Roe's argument here is two relatively minor changes to WHM that she thinks would increase the dps complexity to make it less boring. No part of that argument is talking about overall encounter design reworks. This is another example of you trying to find anything to browbeat me over. We're talking about her idea, not mine. I was just pointing out WHM already has all the skills in place to do this without needing any additions. Moreover, there's no reason FOR them. "Add banish as a new button for...no good reason, since we already have a button we could use for this exact purpose instead". I don't think that's her intent, which is why I made the suggestion for how we could do it in a streamlined way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I've already made SEVERAL proposals myself for healer Job changes. We're not discussing those, so you can't bring up "I thought you wanted...!" since we're not talking about what I wanted, now are we? We're talking about someone else's proposal, and me offering suggestions to it.
Is there actually a way to do this? When I was messing with the HUD trying to find it, I found a checkbox, but it got rid of others' effects on BOTH bars (target and focus) at the same time. I looked to see if there was an option for only the one or the other, but I don't remember being able to find it, or it was only for the main target bar and not focus, I forget. I DID look at it before trying to find a solution there but couldn't locate one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
"Press X to Doubt..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
X
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Okay, question: Why do we need to add Banish?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
That is, why do we need a new and separate button for it? We already have a lot of pointless buttons, so why do we need one more? Why do we need to consolidate existing redundancy to add...new redundancy? Your Banish proposal isn't some exciting button. It's not something like Continuation and it doesn't seem to have any connection to anything other than to be a pseudo-"-2" or "-3".
One of my big complaints about button bloat is having buttons that don't do anything to deserve existing. For the flack they're given, Cure 2, Medica 2, and Cure 3 all have a point. Cure 2 and Cure 3 are if you need sustained bomb healing, and Medica 2 if you need sustained party healing but can't stack tight enough for Cure 3. Medica 1 USED to make sense for this as a spamable augment to Medica 2, except Cure 3's radius has been extended so Medica 1's isn't much better anymore (Cure 3 used to have like a 6, then 8y, range vs Medica's 15), and Medica's MP cost was ballooned so that it's barely cheaper than Medica 2. People say Cure 1 is redundant, but at least it has an MP efficiency and faster cast time over Cure 2. Medica 1 does not have that over its counterpart.
So let's look at what you're suggesting we add:
A GCD button with a CD that does damage.
So it's not like a combo button, it has no interaction with any other system in the kit, we already have another damage button besides Glare that we have, which is an uninspired oGCD never used for the "intended purpose" (of healing or spike MP generation), instead being used essentially on CD for damage (and MP maintenance), which is what you're asking for an ability to do. Only thing it would need is a CD and potency adjustment. I can't think of a good reason not to do this. Especially since I've already been arguing that Assize should be a GCD for a while now as it being an oGCD brings nothing to the table other than making Glarespam worse than it is since it doesn't contribute to breaking it up. Assize isn't used like a healer oGCD (for healing or mitigation), and is more akin to something like Orogeny, which is BORing.
...kind of odd me being the one pointing out something being boring, for once, but here we are...
What you're asking for is closer to something like Sonic Break on GNB or Goring Blade on PLD, two abilities players are constantly saying "Why do we even have these?" because of how little they actually bring to the Jobs and their rotations. What you're asking for is just worse since it becomes even more obnoxious and doesn't do anything interesting. Say what you will of Assize, but at least it would be mildly interesting as an ability to hit more often since it...does other things besides "just damage, but a different button". Which is why I even suggested it in the first place. Myself. In my own WHM proposal.
I see no reason adding Banish as an ability is actually...needed, much less useful.
.
As to your question about SMN:
Note that Emerald, Ruby, and Topaz abilities aren't additional buttons (though if you mean they could have Ruin 3 convert into abilities instead of having a separate Gemshine - something it already does for Bahamut/Phoenix - I'd agree; been thinking a while that they could remove Gemshine and Precious Brilliance and just have those convert), they're single buttons. And they're actually spamable while they're available. And they actually have different cast times and recast times. Titan's 1-2 sets feel a little slower and more cumbersome than Garuda's 1-1-1-1 quick strikes. So they actually DO seem different and aren't just "hit on CD once per 15 seconds". Each one changes your "rotation" while it's up, then you move on to the next one, without additional button bloat besides Gemshine/PB themselves (which, again, they could entirely remove and just fold into Ruin 3/Tri-Disaster and nothing of particular value would be lost, imo.
Wait, SO I'M CLEAR, are you arguing that the Healer damage kits right now ARE diverse and interesting? I want to make sure I'm not seeing things, because you're arguing against me parroting the general line that ALL OF YOU here say that they're basically all identical copy-pasta. And you're arguing against me, saying that they're different. So I want to make sure that's your actual intent...Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
1. You mean what the difference is? I'm not sure I understand the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
2. Yeah, it could be AST having Nocturnal stance. The specifics don't matter TOO much, I'm more thinking in terms of what is the least disruptive to existing players. For example, if SE decided they wanted a fourth Support role, it would make sense to take the Jobs that are already closest to Support - something like RDM gets Vermedica and Verprotect/Vershell (it already kinda has that with Magick Barrier) instead of saying "So we're going to make BLM the new Support role", which would require a complete rework of the Job, its abilities, and its playstyle.
...since this example could get us lost in the weeds, I'm not proposing THAT, I'm more just trying to explain "If we already have something KINDA leaning in a direction that we want to go, it makes sense to use that instead of one of the things that isn't at all like that and would require a complete rework instead."
3. Not sure which thing you're referring to here. "Not really, no" or "Every Job..." or "That's...questionable"? I'm also not sure that the goal should be "make things that appeal to DPS players", especially when it comes to entire other roles. Take Tanking. GNB was pretty much unofficially (and maybe officially) made to appeal to DPS players. But they didn't take the three existing Tanks and ALSO convert them to doing so. The Devs were satisfied with just GNB filling that niche of "the Tank for DPS players when they want to Tank". Note that my own "4 Healers Model" proposal already satisfies this, anyway, between SCH being a "DoT Mage" and SGE being a "Caster with heals" - which, frankly, is what I THOUGHT it was going to be when Yoshi P first announced it.
4. We do get this sometimes - though arguably less than we could. for example, Ruin to Broil. They could do it A LOT MORE, like Protect to Proshell to Plenary Indulgence (one I always shill for) or Divine Seal into Temperance. The Devs have this weird thing they do with Healers where they remove abilities, then add them back later with extra effects and a new name/animation for a high level ability...and for some reason, they don't want to just keep the low level one in. For example, WHM could get Divine Seal at level 40/45 and then it upgrade to Temperance at level 80 adding the party mitigation. We see this more frequently with other Jobs, like PLD having Spirits Within upgrade to Expaciation or SMN's Outburst upgrading to Tri-Disaster. Or WAR which essentially has its core rotation done at level 50 and after that, it's just abilities upgrading and gaining new or slightly additional secondary effects. They don't seem to feel the need to remove Spirits Within for an expansion before adding Expadiation as a capstone an expansion later. So I don't get why they have some allergic recoil from doing this with Healers.
5. I do agree there are issues with continued growth, though I contend that's more related to encounter design. Between "the dance" and the 2 min metal, the Devs have REALLY "painted themselves into a corner", as Sebezy accurately says. They really need to address that issue.
6. Then your proposal is more limited than mine, as I'd probably include SCH in that just with a less rigid rotation and a bit more free flowing. But yes, SGE was basically billed as the GNB for Healers, the DPS-appealing Job of the Healer role. And there's no reason not to make it that other than...well...I honestly can't think of any... -
08-27-2023, 08:42 AMSebazyLolQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Skill issue, a well documented one for that matter.Quote:
"Press X to Doubt..."