Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You put next to no extra pressure on the group if you know what you're doing. Smart cooldown usage, knowing when busters or heavy hits are coming, self healing, all make you functionally no different than a tank in tank stance to your healers.

DPS should be appropriately managing their threat in the first place (threat drops, diversion) but you should also know when you need to throw in an extra hate combo or swap back into stance to regain more of a hate lead.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

I play healer and this is not true in Expert. It doesn't put any pressure and I can DPS just fine. A tank that knows how to swap stances will have their aggro sorted out. Ultimately, DPS jobs have aggro managing skills.

Yes, accidents can happen, but it's not as bad as you make it look. Some people might make mistakes but some of them are also learning, which implies that they will f*** up at some point.

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And neither of you read I was responding to the guy saying the stance is effectively worthless. It's the details you have to keep track of when tanking a smooth run for the group and your missing that point illustrates peoples tendency to miss the finer points and tunnel.

Yes, DPS should watch their aggro, DPS never watches their aggro 100% of the time. And I wasn't saying you shouldn't ever leave tank stance to get some extra DPS, I was saying it's not the tanks primary job to do that and that they should be mindful of what is going on around them when they do.

And sorry but yes, a tanks health bar suddenly dropping faster, with their threat lead dropping does put extra pressure on the group. How much is subjective to the situation but it's their nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

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Oh, but they don't have to know their class. Just read through all the comments, people seem to think it's better to deny access to data which would cause other people to exclude them from farm parties instead of improving themselves so they won't be excluded from said farm parties in the first place. Why learn your class when you can just ignore/report people who say you're underperforming? :^)

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

And neither of you read I was responding to the guy saying the stance is effectively worthless.

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If you know what you're doing, it is effectively worthless.

I'll solo hunt mobs in tank stance and get full credit so whatever!

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Originally Posted by Doki

I'll solo hunt mobs in tank stance and get full credit so whatever!

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threads about people crying over pretty much normal stuff/nothing make me happy =D

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group. Dps can't afford not to watch their threat, healers end up spending more time healing you than dpsing themselves, and if things go south and you mess up not going back into tank stance in time thx to gcd
I like seeing big numbers next to my name as much as anyone else but chasing big dps numbers isn't the tanks job. That's just icing on the cake for them.

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you put 0 pressure on the rest of the group outside of an initial hate combo in stance you can literally drop stance and just straight dps or aoe even in dungeons (initial pull grab all mobs in tank stance then do an aoe rotation for emnity then drop stance and go ham it is literally as easy as it is for kids to eat mud/glue this isn't even a discussion)

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

it is literally as easy as it is for kids to eat mud/glue this isn't even a discussion)

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On that note, when I first started raiding, I would sit in tank stance when I had aggro. After I felt more comfortable, I would just go into dps stance without warning, and after the clear ask the healers if they noticed a difference...most of the time they didn't. And actually, I joined a different group a couple months ago. I had to relearn basically every fight because I switched to war and in my previous group we had a pld who just had to mt every moment possible. Even when I didn't know exactly what I was doing, I would try to be in dps stance as long as possible, and I would always feel bad about it because I thought that I was putting extra stress on the healers...but then I found out that even then my healers were doing about 2k dps each.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

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I will say this. If a tank dies to auto attack, the healer is bad. If a healer spends 60% of the time not clicking buttons, they are bad. If a tank knows how to push his limit both keeping aggro, doing damage while rotating cds for tank buster hes good. If a tank spams aggro all day even when hes tank stance, hes not great, hes not good either, hes just okay. Why do you want to spam aggro combo when its already 90% above everyone else? So you can ''do your job''? Aggro is already far ahead, why are you going to prove you can keep aggro even more when it's not really needed? Also in roulettes well expert, I do keep my tank stance up for trash so healer can go hard on dps, while on PLD i even clemency myself so the whm can spam more holy, that way trash dies faster. Don't give me the ''only save 2 min'', not really. Ive done drowning city of skalla 35 min vs 18 min, so its like half of the time more with a bad group. Yes I know its just an expert, but it's about time really. People have work, other hobbies to do, family etc, saving that 15 min everyday will give you a lot more time than you think it will.

This has been an incredibly enjoyable read. Rather than multi-quote every single ignorant person I'll just echo some highlights.

1) To ANYONE who thinks FFLogs has no context and is merely just numbers. You are 100% wrong. It tracks everything that happens in the fight. It knows how much you're in tank stance, it knows how much you were afk not casting, and it knows how you died, and what led up to it (be it your fault, or a healing issue. It knows that you're not using oGCD's well or lining up buffs at good times. It has tons of context, what it doesn't have is patience for people who make excuses or lie because the data is there for all to see.

2) Hiding your logs is not a good thing. Logs are a lot like credit in that no credit is infinitely worse than bad credit. I have yet to encounter a single person who hides their logs who wasn't bad at the game. Not a single one. If you care about doing content where you will be screened then improve your gameplay. If you don't care, then what a website says about you doesn't matter because you only do participation trophy content anyway.

3) I 100% believe that the OP is not telling us the whole story about her repeatedly being kicked in participation trophy content. I really shouldn't have to explain my reasons on that one. You know what they say, it may not be the community if you're the common denominator.

I would have liked FFLogs to have the ability to track ilvl like warcraftlogs does to give a little additional context, but alas it does not.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

3) I 100% believe that the OP is not telling us the whole story about her repeatedly being kicked in participation trophy content.

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You know, I've seen bad stories like this one pop up in the past, yet never experience those issues or see them happen. And it does make you wonder, especially when they claim to being kicked from hunt mark groups. I've never heard of anyone giving a damn about DPS people pull on those, and thats for DPS classes, much less healers or tanks.

As for farming groups, those are usually premades. There's no harassment there if you're kicked for not meeting expectations. Noone has a duty to form a group with you. Premade groups can kick for any reason or no reason at all. And if that's in the duty finder... well it takes more than one person to vote kick. It takes at least four. One thing I've always said, if you're being vote kicked by half the group, why would you want to be with a group that doesn't want to be with you? Reason is irrelevant, why get defiant and demand them to change their minds?

I mean lets get ridiculous here. Lets say you joined a group and the 7 of them are bunny hopping during the fight and tell you to do the same. Its dumb, it doesn't help (probably hurts the chances) with the content, and its utterly ridiculous. If you don't wish to conform to that, why should you even try to stay? There's some dumb stuff people do out there. And sometimes they have even dumber requirements. So why bother trying to force them to let you stay? Let them be ridiculous. I've always said players ought to have the groups they want to be in. That includes ones we sometimes don't agree with.

This is spiraling off in multiple directions, and people are getting the different threads tangled together, making more of a mess of things.

I think the primary thing to look at is, there is two types of content in the game, casual and raid tier. There is a difference between them, and people advocating something for one of the two is not always advocating the same for both. Not everyone is being specific. For raid content, yes, optimize. People should be pushing to improve, and be held accountable for their performance. Raids are significantly harder then casual content, and worse, carry enrage timers. DPS matter, from all directions, regardless of role. This is one subject of debate, and primarily where the discussion of FFLogs comes in. There is a certain threshold everyone has to reach. Falling short puts a strain on the others, but at the same time the more you improve, the more strain you take off the others. FFLogs works wonders as a tool of self-improvement. The point of debate for it in this thread is it's use in judging others, with people polarizing, arguing whether or not it's an appropriate tool to properly access and discriminate people. This is one thing being argued.

The second is casual content. For many people expectations are lower for people in casual content given it is labelled, well, casual. And here is where the second point of contention comes in. There is an ongoing debate as to what expectations are realistic. Some people are upset if players don't adopt a raider mentality to casual content, complaining that casual players need to "git gud" or be kicked. The argument being these lesser being are slowing down their runs. This is where you heard stories of tanks in casual content being yelled at for staying in their tank stance the whole raid, and is the crux of the whole "healers should/n't DPS" train wreck going on. The opposing view is, this is casual content. Not everyone is a raider. Not everyone has the time or skill to hone their class to a razor's edge. As such, people should do what they're comfortable with and so long as they at least accomplish their primary role, it's all good. Maybe that means a tank stays in tank stance the whole way, or a healer doesn't DPS. It's casual content, people should approach it as such as stop putting such high pressure and demands on people in casual content.

One thread has spawned two different topics, each their own flashpoint. When responding, and equally importantly when reading responses, please keep this is mind and be sure you know and are clear if a particular reply is directed to just one, or both of them. Arguing that a tank that stays in tank stance the entire fight is slacking and should be kicked takes on two different contexts depending on whether it was referencing casual or raid content. And I, personally, have two vastly different opinions to it reliant on context.

For the record, I think FFLogs is a great tool for self-improvement. As for excluding people, I still maintain that a quick glance might not paint a perfect picture, going simply by color likely doesn't. But it can be helpful if you take the time to really dig in and/or watch. However, if you have time to do that, why not just bring the person along for a test run? It would take the same amount of time and give you not only a direct look at them, also a look at how they perform specifically with your people. So I will completely endorse it for self-improvement, but I'm not completely sold on it being an arbiter for others.

As for point two. Casual content is casual. If you PUG, you aren't always going to pull raiders. Some of them will be casual. Perhaps they're not that good, perhaps they don't have the mindset to perfectly execute their combos, or the mental tenacity to squeeze out every second of efficiency. Maybe they're older, and arthritic. Maybe they're slow learners. Maybe they're novices. Maybe they need to stay in tank stance to hold aggro, maybe they can't think/react fast enough to weave DPS into their heals. They're casual players in casual content. Get over it. You want your fifteen minute runs, form a static. Queue as a full party with fellow raiders. And if the run hits any hiccups you can yell at each other. But your attitude that casuals somehow have to become raid-tier players in casual content or they're wasting your time is arrogant and unrealistic. FF XIV has content for casual players and raiders. There is a place for both. If you won't tolerate the mindset of a casual in your raiding, casual players shouldn't have to tolerate your raider mindset in casual play.

If I do something like Shinryu in PF I tank in shield oath because I don't know if a random healer can handle it if I used sword oath. Nobody has ever said a thing to me about tanking in shield oath. I think you just had random group where someone complained about it.

honestly i thought this was bait and just rolled with it kek

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Originally Posted by Avatre

{SNIP} they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.

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I keep hearing that opinion and it's really dangerous. People keep going on about healer dps not because healers have dps abilities but because they have overly much healing potential for pretty much 100% content in this game, double so in dungeons (there was a thread in OF where some guy did a healbot dungeon run on purpose and estimated his active time at 17% or so. Don't really want to go into much detail here, it's off-topic anyway).
Similar thing applies to tanks. They have 3 jobs - mitigation (works much like dps cooldowns rotation-wise but are tank cooldowns instead), keeping aggro and positioning the boss/mobs. Sadly, the vast majority of tanks in ffxiv ignores that last responsibility altogether, moreover, it's virtually not applicable to some bosses, shunryu included.
Balancing enmity is literally a tanks' mechanic. Sitting in tank stance all the time alone would satisfy that job being done. Formally, at least. But you can't say tanks are *designed* to be in tank stance all the time. If you are not getting carried by much more geared dps who, by design, have access to aggro management tools, then just sitting in tank stance and hitting targets according to their count (i.e. switching between singletarget and aoe) would provide you with all the aggro you need. That way, aggro would be a redundant mechanic. Tanks *are* designed with stance dancing in mind, and since HW at very least it's blatantly obvious from their ability set.

Now I'm gonna focus on Shinryu and yes, it will be cherry picking (simply because it's hard to give any comment about that claim regarding dungeons which is even hard to believe).
So Shinryu it is... I can see tank being in tank stance all the time getting the boot because...
1) The other tank is doing his job and you make his life MUCH harder by interfering with aggro. Hello to all the offtank BB spammers back in HW.
2) DPS would have harder time as well, by being inefficient you rob group of about 2k dps which is around 10% of its total dps output, give or take. PERMANENT. POST-BUFF PRE-NERF. AOE. BALANCE.
As a team, everyone would have to try really really really hard to make up for this. If the group is already barely afloat with some 16k raid dps, you are a part of a problem and possibly even main issue.
People keep saying "nuuuuu but raid content is being designed around dps getting gud and tanks and heals basically semi-botting" but if you just go to fflogs and find the longest kill ever and see how much raid dps they were doing and then find tanks being at the bare bottom in terms of dps and subtract that... Let's see. About 23890 raid dps to beat enrage, around 1800 dps PLD (Hiro Nine) who didn't die and get hit by mechanics... That leaves dps at about 5k EACH to beat the enrage. That's less than top 1% of players. If that's not carrying I don't know what is. Content is NOT designed around tanks sitting in tank stance day and night and healers not dpsing at all.
And Shinryu is apparently raid content so being efficient mentality should be a thing there.
3) Healers. For a healer, tank in tank stance is not helping that much but not hurting, either. It's possible, however, to be called out on playing the class wrong because they were unhappy about something else. Like, if you take a lot of damage, healer starts looking at you and he doesn't know about tank cooldown rotation but he knows for sure you *shouldn't* be in tank stance so much... You might be called out on that.

Unrelated: I try tanking myself for the first time in the game pretty much and i find myself in grit quite often. I do drop it on bosses but 4.0 made it hard to aoe trash without some extra mana generation, and mitigation ain't that amazing, either. But that's just DRK things and are not raid-related. However, if you are playing this class as your main... People would expect you to know it bit better.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

casual vs raid tier

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It's not that black and white, there is plenty of middle ground. Let me refer you back to my earlier comment of

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Except it's not about having "Savage skill level," it's about actually putting in effort. I'll never understand why people think actually trying means they have to be top 10%.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

It's not that black and white, there is plenty of middle ground. Let me refer you back to my earlier comment of

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Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

Just to chime in, I've personally witnessed quite a few tanks get harassed in dungeons for not dropping tank stance. It's one of things that kept me away from tanking for a very long time, even though I always wanted to do it. Not that it was my intent to not try and contribute to DPS, but because I find it completely ridiculous for such expectations to exist in a dungeon, and I've already had so many tiring days defending the healer side of this topic. There should be no question that players that carry these high expectations exist in all content, and there are actually quite a few of them from my experience.

I find that tank play is greatly taken for granted in this game. A tank who is holding agro is doing a good job, because when they hold agro it makes things easier for everyone else. DO NOT take that for playing optimally. That is not what I mean. When you get a lousy tank, or your tank dies, we all know how much more difficult this makes the run, if not a full on wipe. That madness is all because nothing is casting a net around all the mob enmity.

Community is already short on tanks, and we're going to chastise them for not dropping tank stance, or IOW, flame them for doing their job? Just doesn't add up. It is quite simple though, if you don't like the way your tank is tanking in a dungeon, just ask to be vote dismissed and hop right back in the queue. It's totally win/win since the tank is a hindrance to your playstyle, and you are a hindrance to their growth.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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Remind me not to play tic-tac-toe with you.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ic_tac_toe.png

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Remind me not to play tic-tac-toe with you.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ic_tac_toe.png

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Yes, because FF XIV is a turn-based game no more complex then tic-tac-toe. Going to compare it to pong next? :eyeroll:

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Remind me not to play tic-tac-toe with you.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ic_tac_toe.png

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That meme doesn't fly with me or any other person who isn't a wannabe MLG'er. I and others who play tank jobs as intended aren't quite as interested in our damage as in our ability to survive while doing what damage we can within our intended role. That doesn't come even close to warranting some jerk (who likely doesn't have DRK unlocked, much less touched Gladiator or Marauder) heaping abuse at a tank doing his/her job right. Have a seat, hotshot.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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Simply dropping tank stance on bosses in Expert Roulette is not "try hard". It is actually not that much different than just using tank stance and it is quite easy to get used to in my opinion.

You just open in tank stance, obtain solid hate, then switch to DPS stance and cycle your cooldowns to avoid taking too much damage. If you notice DPS are creeping on you then you make proper judgement on using more hate combo or if you need to go back into tank stance or not; also if the healer is new or seems to be struggling for any reason it is fine to stay in tank stance. The bosses generally don't do enough damage to need tank stance.

I mean if you can do your main role of tanking also while DPSing for more why wouldn't you do it? It's beneficial for everyone. I am not saying it is okay to harass a tank not doing it or kick them, because I think that is way overboard and not necessary in a dungeon, but I see nothing wrong with advocating more beneficial play styles and putting in the effort to try new ways of playing that would be beneficial for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Simply dropping tank stance on bosses in Expert Roulette is not "try hard". It is actually not that much different than just using tank stance and it is quite easy to get used to in my opinion.

You just open in tank stance, obtain solid hate, then switch to DPS stance and cycle your cooldowns to avoid taking too much damage. If you notice DPS are creeping on you then you make proper judgement on using more hate combo or if you need to go back into tank stance or not; also if the healer is new or seems to be struggling for any reason it is fine to stay in tank stance. The bosses generally don't do enough damage to need tank stance.

I mean if you can do your main role of tanking also while DPSing for more why wouldn't you do it? It's beneficial for everyone. I am not saying it is okay to harass a tank not doing it or kick them, because I think that is way overboard and not necessary in a dungeon, but I see nothing wrong with advocating more beneficial play styles and putting in the effort to try new ways of playing that would be beneficial for everyone.

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The discussion here isn't whether or not you should do it casual content, it's whether people should catch grief for not doing so.

I'm an AST that DPSs like mad in dungeons. But that's because I can. Despite that, if I'm running it as tank or dps and I pull a healer that only DPSs a little or not at all, I'm not going to attack them for it. It's casual content. Same applies to tanks in casual content that stays in tank stance, or only does smaller pulls when I tell them I can heal through large pulls.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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This is stupid also just force people to be stuck in tutorial mode until they learn how to play jobs or gate content behind sss dummies lazy bad player problems solved

It's all well and good to be comfortable with your play style and not want others to impose their play style on you. On the other hand those other players can choose to not have your in their party, as in the OP's party finder example, and you then be denied a spot on that basis.

Can't have one condition without the other.

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Take that dissatisfaction and use it as motivation to improve yourself. The only person holding you back is you.

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The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

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Personally, I think that if you play a tank, you should only play with friends or fc members and completely disregard df and pf if you can.

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Why would I do that when one of the main draws of playing tank is getting near instant queues on almost everything?

IMO if you have friends to queue with that's a reason to play DPS, because otherwise you'll be dealing with awful queue times on most things.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO if you have friends to queue with that's a reason to play DPS, because otherwise you'll be dealing with awful queue times on most things.

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I solo queue as dps all the time its just more incentive to not be horrible at this game

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

The discussion here isn't whether or not you should do it casual content, it's whether people should catch grief for not doing so.

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I think you missed part of what I wrote? I already said in that post that I don't agree with harassing or kicking a tank over not doing it in dungeons. I was specifically replying to him because he said it was "try hard" to utilize your DPS stance on a tank.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

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End game healers are generally used to it. If you do savage it is almost a natural state to heal tanks in DPS stances. You learn to adjust and learn what you need to do to make sure they get the healing they need, but it is also the tank's responsibility to make sure they use their cooldowns properly as well since healers also need to find time to DPS to help the group as well.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. [...]

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Ah yes, the ol' thinly veiled "expecting more than the barest minimum is elitism" argument. By your silly logic, players should be able to go into dungeons and literally auto-attack mobs to death and no one should be allowed to say anything or remove them, because after all that's "enough to get things done" even if it winds up taking you 50 minutes to clear something that shouldn't take 15.

Just because you can do the absolute barest minimum and still manage to clear content (largely because everyone else in the group picked up your slack) doesn't mean you should nor is it grounds to get upset if someone removes you from their group for being a sandbag.

The next time you see someone dragging their feet or if you decide not to put forth real effort, ask yourself this: if the other 4/7/23 people all halfassed it too, would you still be able to clear the content? If the answer is "No" then you understand exactly why your attitude is problematic.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

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Well I mean, if someone is regularly being removed from different, unrelated groups for the same reason every time it isn't hard to draw a simple and accurate conclusion that the person being kicked is indeed holding themselves back for refusal to fix what they know everyone else sees as a problem.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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All players have the same job -- to make whatever their doing as quick as possible. That's why you take a healer or tank in the first place. Among three other basically equally skilled players can make a bigger difference to clear time on your healer job than on your tank or DPS, then you are better able to perform your job on your healer than on your tank or dps. It's really quite simple.

Now, some jobs -- like tanks or healer, free up a whole lot more time with even minimal effort than, say, a DPS. But that doesn't mean that you have nothing more to contribute. If they were in your shoes, could they go faster. If yes, and you're not playing to the fullest, then you're still doing less than they are. We're not as likely to care if a healer or tank aren't maximizing their potential because they're already drastically more efficient choices (relative to doing a no-tank or no-healer run), but that doesn't mean they cannot or should not be asked to play to their fullest (as a character with x gear and y job and a player with x experience and y level of comfort). That's their job. To perform. The role is just a division of smaller responsibilities therein. The goal is always content completion, and the only spectrum there is clear speed.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

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The only clears I have on Shinryu EX involve both tanks dropping stance whenever they aren't MT and for a good portion of the time that they are MT.

In any kind of primarily single target scenario a tank can outDPS a healer more often than not, even a WHM who can do some crazy burst if you line things up right. It makes sense that healers take on the big chunk of the support there and let the tanks DPS.

Personally this thread doesn't have much to do with endgame to me. If I had a pugtank in an EX trial sitting in tank stance with a huge threat lead I would say something and feel justified doing so because of the level of that content. This thread is primarily about dungeons which don't really have any kind of enrage to beat.

All that aside I'm seeing this "do your primary job and that alone is good enough" pop up.

No. A RDM spamming Jolt is not acceptable. A PLD holding hate with only Flash is not acceptable. A healer never DPSing is not acceptable. It's lazy. You have an entire kit of abilities here and I can tell you that using the vast majority of them (sorry Repose and Fluid Aura) is the key to a swift and effective victory. A tank stance dancing is no different. While I would advocate for a less kick-happy mentality when dealing with someone playing their job poorly I don't see anything wrong with giving some advice and expecting to see them at least try. If that advice prompts a hostile response well then I'm not voting to kick a bad tank just an oversensitive jerk.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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I mean this diversion is so good I almost wish it was a cross ro- oh, yeah.

I'm a bad SAM.

Jokes aside though this misses the point so hard you seem to have an accuracy down debuff. But wait! I actually slotted Esuna!

Virtually none of the posts in this thread advocate for the OP to be kicked based on her lack of stance dancing. Many of us are healer mains who understand how hard stance dancing is - you think it's hard as a tank? Try Cleric, where at 60 my Cure 2 could crit for like 2k. Many a tank has been Cleric Stance murdered.

The point is that you have to try. Not even try hard (those are actually two separate words, not sure you knew - also a verb and an adjective, no nouns here) just try. I've coaxed many a baby tank through dropping stance on bosses and seen them outdps me thanks to this handy crystal ball a friend sometimes carries around. The OP could easily be another one if she's on Aether. Between CD rotation, immunities and a little help from a competent healer you don't have to be a "raider" to stance dance as a tank anymore.

Also what is your beef with raiders? I mean, not to derail this topic further but you seem to have a real grudge. There is nothing wrong with being hardcore. There is nothing wrong with being casual. Just like the real world though people who are better at things are going to try to help people who aren't. I agree kicking them is not helping but neither is saying a tank pulling down almost no dps is " doing their job well"...

Here's what it boils down to. People group with whom they wish. Its really that simple.

You cannot be booted from a Trial unless 4 people out of the other 7 decide you must go. If its because they think you're in tank stance too often, then that's their will. If they don't like your glamor, hairstyle, character's eye color.. those are all valid (if strange) reasons. You can call it abuse all you want. But in reality where is that going to get you? You think a GM is going to place you back in the group, shake their finger at the 'abusers' and say 'play nice now...'.

You think they are going to take revenge in your honor on them and suspend the people? Sure.. they MIGHT look into it, but failing harassment in group chat, they'll likely take no action. Telling you to use an ability isn't harassment, its strategy, and if you're not conforming to the rest of the group, YOU are being disruptive and can be actioned. Duty Finder is a dictatorship of the majority. All it takes is four against one, even if the other 3 agree with you, you're on your way out.

I personally don't care what stance a tank is in as long as they don't kill themselves and don't get anyone else killed. I expect the DPS to do the DPS that is required of the encounter. That's my opinion. But that is ONLY an opinion. If I'm in a group and they decide they want the tank to pull so however much DPS, then sucks to be that tank I guess. Nothing I can do about it. I can click no on the vote kick, but what will that do? Tank is still being booted at the end of the day in that scenario.

Like I said, if the majority of a group wants you to bunny hop, you're going to be hopping or looking for another group. Premades is the only way to avoid that nonsense.

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

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I think alot of tanks think this way. I'm not saying never enter tank stance, especially if you're pulling big in a dungeon or about to take a tankbuster, but yeah... It's certainly not necessary for most of us.

We like your dps just as much as our own in general.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The OP could easily be another one if she's on Aether. Between CD rotation, immunities and a little help from a competent healer you don't have to be a "raider" to stance dance as a tank anymore.

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When I'm with PUG healers, I'm very cautious. That being said, I just came out of an Expert roulette as PLD with a WHM healer friend. in Ala Mhigo. Even managed to pull off the penta-pull (butt clenching moments aplenty, with a DRG/MCH DPS, might not have been the best idea but whatever), and I spent more time in Sword Oath than Shield Oath in bosses. I did 1 or 2 enmity combos, then Sword Oath and pushing out DPS. That's how I am, I'm cautious around people I haven't built that trust with, but once the trust is there, I'm going to go balls against the wall. So what would your tips be for overcoming the cautiousness around PUG healers (and their wildly varying skill levels)?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

So what would your tips be for overcoming the cautiousness around PUG healers (and their wildly varying skill levels)?

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Communication and experimentation. At the start, ask what your healer is comfortable with. If they're convinced they can keep up, go for it. If the healer was wrong, it could be ugly, but really, what is the worst-case scenario? You wipe. In a dungeon that's a quick respawn and regroup. Ask the healer what went wrong and then either try again full-bore or scale it back some. It really doesn't risk much to trust your healer's self-appraisal, and the rewards if it does work are far more then worth it.

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Originally Posted by Lodinn

Content is NOT designed around tanks sitting in tank stance day and night and healers not dpsing at all.

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It's not that i dont agree with you, i would die from boredom without dps'ing as an healer, and the ABC Rule should be followed if possible but :

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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Want a source?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

When I'm with PUG healers, I'm very cautious. That being said, I just came out of an Expert roulette as PLD with a WHM healer friend. in Ala Mhigo. Even managed to pull off the penta-pull (butt clenching moments aplenty, with a DRG/MCH DPS, might not have been the best idea but whatever), and I spent more time in Sword Oath than Shield Oath in bosses. I did 1 or 2 enmity combos, then Sword Oath and pushing out DPS. That's how I am, I'm cautious around people I haven't built that trust with, but once the trust is there, I'm going to go balls against the wall. So what would your tips be for overcoming the cautiousness around PUG healers (and their wildly varying skill levels)?

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I would say first off you're a PLD - you've got the best mitigation tool in the game in Hallowed. Know that you have that there as your "oh sh!t" button when you need it.


Xerek has already said communication and I think that's probably the best answer. In an ideal world every healer knows their limits and how to convey them. Sadly in the world of DF I feel there are a lot of players who just will not communicate whether that stems from being console players without keyboards or something else entirely.

If you ask a healer how they feel about a large pull and they say anything other than "please no" I say go for it. I've now pugged the Ala Mhigo megapull with each tank several times as it is becoming more common in DF and I can say it's certainly possible. I do think for something like that you should spend more time in tank stance, that way if it goes well enough your healer can AoE a bit which is difinitively stronger than CoS pretty much across the board.

I also endorse Xerek's ideas on wiping - there really isn't much of a penalty for it, plus you've learned a bit if it happens.

I don't mean to presume anything about your current skill level but as most of my post focused on stance dancing I'll reiterate that even in preformed parties I only have one tank friend that consistantly does those gigantic pulls primarily in DPS stance and he is both very geared and very skilled, not to mention usually backed by wonderful DPS players.

I think tank DPS shines in single-target situations, if you're going to begin DPS stance I would say do it on bosses. Ala Mhigo is an amazing example of bosses that require almost zero tank stance outside of gaining some threat. Zenos has that cleave tankbuster move but even that isn't coming close to oneshotting most tanks, heck I've survived it on WHM.

I don't think you're ever going to feel as comfortable stance dancing with a pug healer as you would with a friend, if I had advice for that I would give it but I don't think it exists. I do think that the more you get " in the groove" of stance dancing (just like healers did before SB) the more comfortable you'll become with it in general (again like pre-SB healers) and whether that practice comes from pugs or premades doesn't matter as much as having the experience.

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Originally Posted by Tubben

It's not that i dont agree with you, i would die from boredom without dps'ing as an healer, and the ABC Rule should be followed if possible but :

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.




Want a source?

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This quote is two and a half years old though. He's also said personal and FC housing would be separate, housing reclamation would never be a thing, enacted "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" with parsers... Not everything Yoshi says stays law forever.

I would be startled if Ultimate had no healer DPS factored into its timing. I know it's an extreme example but it's no less valid.

so you're intentionally doing less damage out of fear?

I get the opposite: I get bullied for dps stance :)

"shield oath? you're a paladin. you do no damage"

"you died because no defiance. your cds do nothing, you get 20% mitigation"

"we have a warrior that does bad damage" (based on an overhealing white mage that doesn't know how to lucid properly)

as a tank, you're always going to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by millktea

so you're intentionally doing less damage out of fear?

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no, that's not the intention. the intention is to have more defense out of fear. doing less damage is just a side effect.