Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Incorrect, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation.

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Also, Delirium Blade for all that magic damage (assuming you don't have a MNK)

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I don't know about making Abyssal Drain a single target ability or even if it should be kept at all under the situation you outlined. Maybe keep it with your changes, maybe get rid of it to free up another ability slot for something more needed, honestly haven't gotten to that point in my thought process yet.

However, I definitely agree about the unnecessary redundancy with Abyssal and Unleashed. As you suggested, they should really just condense them down into a single ability. Regular Unleashed works as is, DA+Unleashed works like DA+Abyssal. That would help streamline their ability set a bit and I feel that they could definitely use more of that.

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I like the targetting from abyssal, but just because it's different than what PLD & WAR have. Nice to have unique touches between the classes like that.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Disagree, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation. The only thing Warrior has to offer is IB and Vengeance. Thrill isn't more mitigation it only serves to grant more hp/self heal. Past that point it has no mp efficiency like other CDs.

If Divine Veil isn't something that is needed for the mega/teraflare mechanic then it won't really mean too much.

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WAR is actually really good against Perpetual as it comes out in bursts. You can Equilibrium after one comes out to heal yourself for a good chunk. You can also Infuriate + Inner beast the 2nd/3rd Perpetual to take advantage of the IB heal as well for once. DA+Dark Mind is really good here but I don't think it's miles ahead of what WAR can offer. DA+Dark Mind + Shadowskin is about as good as Inner Beast + Vengeance. As for PLD, they can also HG to easily negate once set of Perpetuals, but their mitigation against magic damage is admittedly weaker (PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Disagree, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation. The only thing Warrior has to offer is IB and Vengeance. Thrill isn't more mitigation it only serves to grant more hp/self heal. Past that point it has no mp efficiency like other CDs. I would say DRK/WAR is the best alternative personally.

If Divine Veil isn't something that is needed for the mega/teraflare mechanic then it won't really mean too much.

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Pair Thrill with a cross class Convalescence and it works exactly like another shadowskin (except it's equivalent to 17% mitigation, so it's a little weaker).

The thing about WAR is they can have SP up all the time (a little stronger than delerium, and you can have a MNK put it up) and they can have inner beast up for every tank buster. Sure inner beast only lasts 6s, but you can use it at least 3x more often than you can use DA + Dark Mind. Then, on top of that, they've got vengeance and thrill of battle+convalescence at relatively low cooldowns, so that helps too. I think this puts them on par with DRK against magical damage. I don't think it necessarily makes them *better* but it at least makes them equivalent.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

WAR is actually really good against Perpetual as it comes out in bursts. You can Equilibrium after one comes out to heal yourself for a good chunk. You can also Infuriate + Inner beast the 2nd/3rd Perpetual to take advantage of the IB heal as well for once. DA+Dark Mind is really good here but I don't think it's miles ahead of what WAR can offer. DA+Dark Mind + Shadowskin is about as good as Inner Beast + Vengeance. As for PLD, they can also HG to easily negate once set of Perpetuals, but their mitigation against magic damage is admittedly weaker (PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

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DRK can living dead the later ones as well with close to no penalty if benediction is up. IB is weaker than souleater as well. WAR is by no means miles behind but DRK is ahead, not to mention the group would benefit more by having a WAR OT DPS in this current meta.

Not really relevant slight derail:

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

(PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

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It really depends on what your CD prioritization was if you did
1st: WAR IB/VENG PLD RAMP/SENT
2nd: Holmgang
3rd: Hallowed
4th: War IB/VENG PLD RAMP SENT
PLD is ahead at this point
5th: Holmgang, need pld to stack for the first hit though.
Needless to say this is probably the best way to do it from a CD perspective imo. However most people don’t do this nor would I trust the 5th ahkmorn to be done like that in a pug haha

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Pair Thrill with a cross class Convalescence and it works exactly like another shadowskin (except it's equivalent to 17% mitigation, so it's a little weaker).

The thing about WAR is they can have SP up all the time (a little stronger than delerium, and you can have a MNK put it up) and they can have inner beast up for every tank buster. Sure inner beast only lasts 6s, but you can use it at least 3x more often than you can use DA + Dark Mind. Then, on top of that, they've got vengeance and thrill of battle+convalescence at relatively low cooldowns, so that helps too. I think this puts them on par with DRK against magical damage. I don't think it necessarily makes them *better* but it at least makes them equivalent.

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Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

Also just to make sure everyone's on the same page the context here is A4 and nothing else btw.

Souleater is not that much stronger than IB while tanking, 368 potency vs 360.

Edit: And you forgot the ToB + Conv. combination in your CD roatation. That is another ~17% effective dr.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Souleater is not that much stronger than IB while tanking, 368 potency vs 360.

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I would really like to know how you're getting 360 potency.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

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The point he's making is that, for the sake of eating tank busters, WAR's unique combination of conv+thrill increases eHP, allowing it to act as a form of mitigation (similar to how Defiance works), which none of the other tanks can do. Conv+thrill is nearly as effective as shadow wall in this respect, and is very definitely a mitigation tool.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

I would really like to know how you're getting 360 potency.

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Souleater: 400 * 0.8 * 1.15 = 368
Inner Beast: 300 * 1.2 = 360

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

The point he's making is that, for the sake of eating tank busters, WAR's unique combination of conv+thrill increases eHP, allowing it to act as a form of mitigation (similar to how Defiance works), which none of the other tanks can do. Conv+thrill is nearly as effective as shadow wall in this respect, and is very definitely a mitigation tool.

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Except for the fact that you're neglecting that Dark Knight has access to Conv so making it as a comparison against DRK is a moot point unless its increasing the potency of thrill, which it's not. The only active self heal that can KIND OF be considered mitigation really is bloodbath, and that's only because it persists. Once a self heal has been popped that's it, there is no mitigation past that point. You just equilibrium for 4k? Great it saved MP. Shadow wall just shaved off 30% and it's going to continue shaving it off. Not to mention once the perpetual ray starts adding up Shadow Wall is much more effective.

edit: Oh right maim, long day at work herp. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I like the targetting from abyssal, but just because it's different than what PLD & WAR have. Nice to have unique touches between the classes like that.

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I was actually thinking about the targeting differences while I was typing the quoted response. If they did condense them into one ability, they should just use the Abyssal targeting format where it is a PbAoE on your target.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

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Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.

You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.

So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount. You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

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Going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the almost. Because Grit/SOath are better from an MP efficiency perspective by roughly 5%.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.
Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.
So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.

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Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

Having a 100% magic dmg boss like A4 does make DRK look like a good choice compared to PLD. If the Alex 4 Savage raid was this exact fight but with much higher damage going out, I can see DRK coming in in place of PLD, but PLD has some nice tools despite not having any physical damage going out from the boss. Shelton/Bulwark is very powerful against the quarantine add, especially when you don't have a healer to help you out. Stance dancing to Shield Oath to soak orbs feels a lot better than swapping into Defiance (since Defiance increases your max HP but awkwardly doesn't heal you for that difference). Not having to use Rage of Halone improves PLD OT dps by a lot. Divine Veil is useful against the megaflare-like move (forget the name). No matter the fight, Hallowed Ground is always good.

It's funny how an encounter needs to be designed to completely negate one of PLD's main advantages (shield) to consider bringing in DRK as an optimal pick.

Fun Fact Of The Day: When using Thrill + Convalescence, you actually pair it with IB. You also pair that with Vengeance, and (in the case of a physical tank buster) Raw Intuition. If tank busters are 60s apart, you can combine Thrill + Conv + IB with Raw Intuition and then IB + Vengeance for the next, repeating from here. WAR can also use Equilibrium on both of those tank busters, and Second Wind for every odd or even tank buster. On top of this, you can use IB again twice (at minimum) before needing it again for the tank buster. This varies from fight to fight obviously and not all tank busters are 60s apart, but in the case that they're shorter WAR has Raw Intuition or double IB to work with.

Eyyy WAR actually has great mitigation, and so does PLD, and so does DRK (well, vs Magic stuff). Schlong measuring context can stop now!

Oh, also, Thrill's increase of health is to stop you from dying (the same as all defensive CDs) by increasing your health pool to beyond the damage the tank buster will deal. You pair it with Convalescence to make it MP efficient to get you back to full. The idea of tank buster mitigation isn't necessarily how much less damage you take, just that you survive it and get back to full comfortably without costing your healer's excess mana (which you wouldn't with Thrill + Conv + IB).

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

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Having a bigger HP pool allows you to take bigger hits, aka tank busters. The problem is that because you took a bigger hit, you need more heals to recover from it. In terms of sustained damage, the problem is that once that HP is gone, it's gone. The point, is that convalescence will completely, 100% cover that problem with thrill of battle. So when you use both together it is just as effective as pure mitigation.

PLD & DRK can of course use Convalescence any time they need extra healing. But they don't have anything like thrill of battle to pair it with to make it function just like another mitigation cooldown. They get the increased healing throughput as a % of incoming damage, and better MP efficiency, but they don't get the eHP increase that mitigation also provides.

Practical usage, WAR can use both together and create another strong defensive cooldown that is in line with Shadowskin or Rampart. If you're listing off abilities used for mitigation and don't list thrill, then you're selling the WAR short.

On paper, Thrill + Conv looks like decent "mitigation" but in reality if you take a tank buster with only those two up it's going to be a big chunk of health, most likely causing an emergency reaction from your healer. Healer's emergency heals, outside of Bene, are abilities (Essential Dignity, Tetra, Lustrate) and are unaffected by Convalescence, or Defiance for that matter making them less efficient means of healing which requires your healers to spend more time/mp to boost you back up.

And all the pairings of IB with different cooldowns insinuates you have 5 stacks of wrath ready to rock, which is possible, but would most likely require you to sit on 5 stacks till you need them which really reduces WARs potential, and using Infuriate should be done at zero stacks so you don't waste what you've already built.

So basically to justify taking DRK on a raid you have to not have a MNK in the group, be fighting a boss that deals primarily magical damage, is preferably but not necessarily parryable for access to reprise, and have the ot be a warrior willing to use deliverance because lmao sword oath paladins.

However, both Paladin and Warrior can maintank these fights equally well, without the arbitrary requirement that the boss have a significant magical attack, and be fully optimal to slot in any standard 2-2-4 party composition.

So, we've laid out the long list of arbitrary requirements needed to justify a Dark Knight in the group. What advantages does this afford the group, if any, that could not be had by replacing the Dark Knight with a Warrior or Paladin and allowing for more flexibility?

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

And all the pairings of IB with different cooldowns insinuates you have 5 stacks of wrath ready to rock, which is possible, but would most likely require you to sit on 5 stacks till you need them which really reduces WARs potential, and using Infuriate should be done at zero stacks so you don't waste what you've already built.

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It's really not hard to learn when tankbusters are coming when all the bossfights are incredibly scripted. You should have IB for every single tankbuster (either from building up Wrath or using Infuriate), and you'll still be able to pop a bunch in between tankbusters because fights were designed with a PLD's longer cooldowns in mind. Even holding onto IB for a couple of GCDs won't make a MT WAR's dps drop much.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Healer's emergency heals, outside of Bene, are abilities (Essential Dignity, Tetra, Lustrate) and are unaffected by Convalescence, or Defiance for that matter making them less efficient means of healing which requires your healers to spend more time/mp to boost you back up.

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Yes, this is a problem. They're already aware of the issue, hopefully they'll consider fixing it.

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Originally Posted by Krr

So basically to justify taking DRK on a raid you have to not have a MNK in the group, be fighting a boss that deals primarily magical damage, is preferably but not necessarily parryable for access to reprise, and have the ot be a warrior willing to use deliverance because lmao sword oath paladins.

However, both Paladin and Warrior can maintank these fights equally well, without the arbitrary requirement that the boss have a significant magical attack, and be fully optimal to slot in any standard 2-2-4 party composition.

So, we've laid out the long list of arbitrary requirements needed to justify a Dark Knight in the group. What advantages does this afford the group, if any, that could not be had by replacing the Dark Knight with a Warrior or Paladin and allowing for more flexibility?

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I think DRK MT + WAR OT is going to be the best for magic fights since the DRK's anti-magic abilities are strong and you get the WAR's SP/SE and great DPS. So I'm anticipating the best raid setup may be to have your PLD level a DRK and swap classes based on the fight.

I mean, I don't think this is good balance, but I think that's where it is right now for those looking to min/max.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Yes, this is a problem. They're already aware of the issue, hopefully they'll consider fixing it.



I think DRK MT + WAR OT is going to be the best for magic fights since the DRK's anti-magic abilities are strong and you get the WAR's SP/SE and great DPS. So I'm anticipating the best raid setup may be to have your PLD level a DRK and swap classes based on the fight.

I mean, I don't think this is good balance, but I think that's where it is right now for those looking to min/max.

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Their going to need to make some harder hitting magical attacks then. As the floor 4 alexander, I can already be in Sword oath MTing. Mix between vit and str accessories and deal with the mechanics of the little yellow orbs and lasers... and if things really go to shit, back up heals since I can't block any way....

Though to be fair, I'm willing to bet DRK could probably do the same. Though no self maintenance and cures for the party..

Don't get hung up on the current content, this whole discussion only matters for savage.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

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And then WAR can also pop Inner Beast and Vengeance and Raw Intuition on top of that too. That doesn't change the fact that Thrill+Conv has added eHP to WAR. Yes, PLD's improved Convalescence will make it easier to recover health, and thus, easier to recover from tankbusters, but only WAR can use it (combined with Thrill of Battle, as mentioned above), to actually survive tankbusters better.

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edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

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And once again, you are missing the point. Thrill of Battle increases your maximum HP while also healing you for that amount, while Convalescence makes healing easier. This is a direct increase to effective HP by 17%, in the same way that Rampart is a direct increase to effective HP by 20%.

If a WAR and a PLD have 1000 base HP, and they are both in their tanking stance, this is what we have:

WAR effective HP:
1000*(1.2 eHP gain from Defiance)=1200 effective hit points


PLD effective HP:
1000*(1.2 eHP gain from Shield Oath)=1200 effective hit points

Now, the Paladin will still only have 1000HP listed, but including all the mitigation and buffs it has active at this point in time, it is as if it had 1200 hit points. Similarly, WAR's defiance grants a 25% increase to HP, and a 20% increase to healing. This ends up being around equal to the 20% mitigation that PLD's Shield Oath has, meaning that WAR also has 1200 effective hit points in this scenario, even though he'll be listed as having 1250 HP. WAR having slightly higher HP in this scenario does impact things a bit, but we'll leave it as it is for the sake of simplification.

So, when PLD uses any other mitigation skill, it is, in effect, increasing its effective hit points so that it may take whatever blow comes its way. For example, if that PLD uses rampart, that's a 20% increase in mitigation, which, for the time being, means a 20% increase in effective HP.

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath and Rampart:
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

Similarly, if WAR uses inner beast in addition with defiance, it nets a similar effect.

WAR effective HP with Defiance and Inner Beast:
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

Notice how these numbers are the same, even though the method of mitigation is different? This is because effective HP is a way of breaking down various methods of mitigation to see their true, base effectiveness. This is very, very basic math right here.

Now, if a PLD uses Convalescence in addition to the above, he gains a 30% bonus to his healing, but it does not increase his effective HP, since it does nothing of value to help him to soak the next blows.

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath, Rampart, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

But if WAR uses Convalescence with Thrill of Battle, that provides a combined bonus that does increase his effective HP. Combining the factors of increased healing, along with increased match HP (and the fact that your HP is healed proportionately), this is mathhammere'd out to be around 17% overall increase.

So WAR effective HP with Defiance, Inner Beast, Thrill of Battle, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2*1.17=1685 effective HP

This is a unique skill interaction for WAR, since none of the other tanks have abilities that increase their max health to coincide with the improved healing ability of Convalescence. And because of this, despite PLD having a trait that makes him easier to heal with it, WAR is the only tank that can use Convalescence as part of an actual mitigation tool.

Once again, this is very basic math.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I think DRK MT + WAR OT is going to be the best for magic fights since the DRK's anti-magic abilities are strong and you get the WAR's SP/SE and great DPS. So I'm anticipating the best raid setup may be to have your PLD level a DRK and swap classes based on the fight.

I mean, I don't think this is good balance, but I think that's where it is right now for those looking to min/max.

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Yeah, fair enough. DRK MT | WAR OT is probably the highest party DPS you can achieve as well since it enables NIN | DRG (battle litany + TA), but probably not by a terribly huge margin.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath, Rampart, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

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So WAR effective HP with Defiance, Inner Beast, Thrill of Battle, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2*1.17=1685 effective HP

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But now you're comparing 4 WAR cooldowns/abilities with PLD's 3. What's the math when you add Sheltron (PLD's IB equivalent for tank busters)? (I honestly have no idea how block strength works). I mean, the more cooldowns, the more mitigation, right?

Is that question supposed to be for the sake of obfuscation, or are you actually attempting to raise some silly sort of point? That has nothing to do with this. It's not a dick measuring contest of who's got the most cooldowns, it's about the fact that WAR has exclusive access to a skill interaction that allows Convalescence to be part of a mitigation combo, a method of using the skill which no other class can replicate. To illustrate the point that effective HP is not always in the form of a percentage-based reduction in damage.

If the point is that convalesence is useful to WAR's Thrill of Battle, then that's fine. Misunderstood the point of the post about surviving tankbusters.

Just note that its a variable eHP bonus that's limited in relation to the WAR's current HP. If you're already at full health when popping Thrill of Battle in prep for a tank buster (which... you should be), then Convalesence's bonus eHP is lost.

Just want to add something for a bit.

Everyone is saying how much of an advantage DRK has over other thanks when it comes to magic damage.

We all know that this comes down to 1 skill right?

Dark Mind is the only thing (aside from Delerium which is a debuff that can be applied by a DPS class so I am not counting that as DRK specific) in the DRK kit that specifically addresses magic damage.

Now its not a half bad skill......10sec duration, 60sec CD 15% redux (30% if you sink a DA into it) but its still just that one skill.

I dont really thing ONE SKILL is enough to hang up everything and say "DRK is the best out of all for magic damage" or even that DRK will have a significant edge over other classes in things like A4

And the CD is still 1min on things like A4 in P1 and 2 you can use it on CD pretty much and get a good gain off it on P3 most arent going to be popping it willy nilly and will sit on the CD for the tank buster.

I think Dark Mind is just too weak without using Dark Arts to buff it. I'm not mathematician but how does Inner Beast compare to Dark Mind with and without Dark Arts?

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Originally Posted by Domira

I think Dark Mind is just too weak without using Dark Arts to buff it. I'm not mathematician but how does Inner Beast compare to Dark Mind with and without Dark Arts?

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Dark Mind is 15%/30% and Inner Beast is 20%+a small selfheal. Buffed DM is substantially better and unbuffed is a little worse, basically.

...Which brings up another significant issue that the other tanks don't have to deal with: DRK's defenses can end up having a fairly heavy drain on its offensive abilities. In fights where you have to make that choice, DRK's only potentially valuable trait as a tank, supposedly higher damage as MT, takes a nosedive. Having to pick and choose between survival or damage takes a huge toll on the class.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

snip.

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You realize the reciprocal of 4/5(80% or more commonly the damage the pld/drk takes) is 5/4 which makes the oath's a 1.25 effective hp btw while WARs stay at 1.2. Yes this is very basic math indeed. . .

Additionally you cannot raw intuition the manipulator in a4. Did you miss the point where I said only in the context of a fight like a4? O.o

DRK's Dark Mind as 15%/30% compared to say, Inner Beast's 20%?
That's not entirely right, as it's "Increased Magical Resistance", not "Reduced Magical Damage Taken." I can't say for 100%, but I'm fairly it comes out a bit different.

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Originally Posted by RuneSevalle

DRK's Dark Mind as 15%/30% compared to say, Inner Beast's 20%?
That's not entirely right, as it's "Increased Magical Resistance", not "Reduced Magical Damage Taken." I can't say for 100%, but I'm fairly it comes out a bit different.

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Buff icon says "magic damage reduced".

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Originally Posted by RuneSevalle

DRK's Dark Mind as 15%/30% compared to say, Inner Beast's 20%?
That's not entirely right, as it's "Increased Magical Resistance", not "Reduced Magical Damage Taken." I can't say for 100%, but I'm fairly it comes out a bit different.

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Resistance and Damage taken/done is the same. Storm's Eye decreases the slashing resistance by 10%, and the damage done to the mob by slashing attacks is increase is 10%.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

You realize the reciprocal of 4/5(80% or more commonly the damage the pld/drk takes) is 5/4 which makes the oath's a 1.25 effective hp btw while WARs stay at 1.2. Yes this is very basic math indeed. . .

Additionally you cannot raw intuition the manipulator in a4. Did you miss the point where I said only in the context of a fight like a4? O.o

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The numbers themselves are largely irrelevant here. The point is to express the fact that Thrill+Conv work in a unique fashion that allows it to function as a proper form of mitigation. You could replace any number in that explanation with any number you'd like. Additionally, I have no idea where Raw Intuition comes into this point.

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Originally Posted by Arkard

I'd take a guess people are refusing you for your gear more than anything.

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We cleared Bismark with an AVG ilvl of 155. I was on PLD with an ilvl of 151.

If the party needs ilvl 170+ to clear Bismark Ex, they arent as good as they think they are.

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Originally Posted by Falgern

Resistance and Damage taken/done is the same. Storm's Eye decreases the slashing resistance by 10%, and the damage done to the mob by slashing attacks is increase is 10%.

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Thought storm's eye increased damage by 11%...

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

...Which brings up another significant issue that the other tanks don't have to deal with: DRK's defenses can end up having a fairly heavy drain on its offensive abilities. In fights where you have to make that choice, DRK's only potentially valuable trait as a tank, supposedly higher damage as MT, takes a nosedive. Having to pick and choose between survival or damage takes a huge toll on the class.

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This also applies to WAR. PLD is the only job that can't trade defenses for more damage.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

You realize the reciprocal of 4/5(80% or more commonly the damage the pld/drk takes) is 5/4 which makes the oath's a 1.25 effective hp btw while WARs stay at 1.2. Yes this is very basic math indeed. . .

Additionally you cannot raw intuition the manipulator in a4. Did you miss the point where I said only in the context of a fight like a4? O.o

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His math is wrong, but the idea is right. Defiance increases hp by 25% not 20%, so oath, grit and defiance all end up raising your eHP to 125%. Rampart, inner beast and shadowskin also raise your eHP by 25%. Thrill raises your eHP by 20%, so it's a little weaker. But it's still strong enough that you need to include it when talking about major defensive cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

This also applies to WAR. PLD is the only job that can't trade defenses for more damage.

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For what it's worth, I hadn't ever really felt that choosing between Fell Cleave and Inner Beast was nearly as painful as the choices that DRK had to make. With WAR, it always felt like that sacrifice was over "what benefits me and my party more," where as DRK feels like "what's going to end up screwing me over the least."

If that makes any sense.