Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

but no one is forcing anyone to go into those 30 dungeons with 50 players

thats the beauty of it

you can CHOOSE who is in your party still, or did they somehow take that option out of the game?

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you can change your job anywhere. I remember back in pso they had challenge mode, it required 4 players to start, cheaters would join games, kill for like 5 minutes normally then whip out super hacks and easymode the level. Whats to stop that now?

but ok thats not that relevant lets assume people arent aholes.

the fact that a large portion of people will try to get people to help them though easy content lowers the available amount of people who need to actually complete it normally. The fact that if things look bad people can switch to their easy job in the 4rth quarter effects their game.

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

im sure we'll be getting "Heroic" difficulty sooner or later...lol
(Wich could be fun imo)

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wrong game

what we will get is a difficulty slider, and then people can 5 star it

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

yet they can enforce a minimum level requirement?

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Yes. One involves checking that you have a class at the minimum level or higher. The other involves temporarily delevelling you when you enter, keeping the delevel in place across all classes, and restoring your level once you exit.

More complicated.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you can change your job anywhere. I remember back in pso they had challenge mode, it required 4 players to start, cheaters would join games, kill for like 5 minutes normally then whip out super hacks and easymode the level. Whats to stop that now?

but ok thats not that relevant lets assume people arent aholes.

the fact that a large portion of people will try to get people to help them though easy content lowers the available amount of people who need to actually complete it normally. The fact that if things look bad people can switch to their easy job in the 4rth quarter effects their game.

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and whats stopping the leader from ousting you for doing so?
or the fact that you are willing to do that to ruin othes enioyment from spreading around, thus making people not want to run it with you anymore?

what you talk about here is people just being straight douches, douchebaggery is not the issue at hand here

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

Confirmation of players winning the right to experience the dungeon the way they want to as long as they are the minimum level


lets face it, the lower dungeon isnt endgame, its mid game
mid game content, mid game challenge
endgame characters wont be going there for the challenge

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I like this, if I feel up for a challenge then I'll switch to a lower level class, but if I feel like doing a speed run I have that freedom as well. I'd be up for voluntary level cap, but not mandatory. I don't like working towards a goal (rank 50) and have it taken away from me (just to make something challenging).

But all for a level cap/ sync if it's an option set by the party/raid group. :)

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

thats an entirely different issue altogether
they chose to level everything past that range already
and they can always make a new character if experiencing it at that range is so important(and its very easy to level it up to that point to do it too)

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I shouldn't be forced into leveling another character. Just like you shouldn't be forced into a forced level cap. Why are you going back on your prior argument?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

oh how cute, he changed my quote to show that he thinks he knows what hes talking about

facts are still facts

theres on level cap

live with it

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I changed your quote so that you can understand out point, because our point is definitely NOT

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

circular arguement

they dont want 50s getting the gear easily
the 50s dont need the gear
then why does it need to be capped?
because they still dont want the 50s getting the gear easily

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Our point is that we don't want rank 30 classes attaining gear (which is godly for rank 30 classes) too easily. Not that other thing which you think is what we want but it actually isn't.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I changed your quote so that you can understand out point, because our point is definitely NOT



Our point is that we don't want rank 30 classes attaining gear (which is godly for rank 30 classes) too easily. Not that other thing which you think is what we want but it actually isn't.

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it wont be that easy to get
you assume the drop rate will be very high

and why should you care how other people get their gear as long as they do it legaly

Vedis and Durti, you'd be okay with being allowed to run through the dungeon as R50 as long as you get no drops for it? i.e. all you'd be doing is exploring and killing stuff for no reward.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I changed your quote so that you can understand out point, because our point is definitely NOT



Our point is that we don't want rank 30 classes attaining gear (which is godly for rank 30 classes) too easily. Not that other thing which you think is what we want but it actually isn't.

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Even so, your point is your opinion and not shared by everyone. This thread is full of opinion. Neither is superior and neither is inferior. They are just different.

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Originally Posted by Shura

Your assuming to much. We don't know how drop rates will be, we don't know how you obtain gear, we don't know how much of the instance can be cleared in on go, we don't know what the reentry time is and we don't know if there are any penalties for having lv 50s. Your simply assuming that Dungeons can be repeated without a cool down, drop rates are so high that you can get the gear you want in 1 try and that having 50s wont effect drop rate.

Both in FFXIV and in FFXI drop rates have always been horrible, only reason it feels like NMs in XIV dont have a bad drop rate is because they repop within 5mins. for some of the NMs in XIV, i had to kill it 20+ times to get the drop. If the NMs poped on a 2h timer, that would of been 40+ hours of camping straight. Also there are 7 Battle classes in this game, i doubt full set of gear for all the classes will drop in 1 go, so your example does not work. even if a Lv50 can clear it in 14mins, without penalty, there is no guarantee that the item you want is the one that will drop.

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even the consolation prize gear effects the economy, look at mee deggi, and impact knuckles, it was the crappy drop, the fact that people farmed kote all day meant that impact knuckles was cheap as dirt, and that effected the price of everything close to its level, and everything in range that competed.

the fact that it will probably have a cooldown only makes things worse, people hate failure and will try to take thier high friends to make it easier, not only that, but those people will not be in the available pool of people do the quest, so for people who actually want to do it at the reccomended level, they will lose players who would otherwise be available to try to obtain the gear.

Its a bad idea on a lot of levels, of course we dont know everything, we are talking about what has been presented to us, and how things have worked before.
If there are penalties then it is fine, but we are working under the premise there are not since no one has said there are.

i'd be fine running through with a difficulty slider or scaled down on my r50 to r30 during the dungeon, but to say that i can not go into the dungeon to help a ls mate at all i am not fine with.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

wrong game

what we will get is a difficulty slider, and then people can 5 star it

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True, but well need a "Good" refrence of variety, so i sed WoW.
But i guess "Level-synch" would be spanktastic too.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Vedis and Durti, you'd be okay with being allowed to run through the dungeon as R50 as long as you get no drops for it? i.e. all you'd be doing is exploring and killing stuff for no reward.

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Absolutely not. One way or the other, preferential treatment benefits no one.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Vedis and Durti, you'd be okay with being allowed to run through the dungeon as R50 as long as you get no drops for it? i.e. all you'd be doing is exploring and killing stuff for no reward.

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i wouldnt be ok with that
we deserve it as much as the people who are r30(we may not need it, but we deserve it)

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

True, but well need a "Good" refrence of variety, so i sed WoW.
But i guess "Level-synch" would be spanktastic too.

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nah, again, difficulty slider
like with leves

people who want it to be more challenging can 2-5 star it

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

and whats stopping the leader from ousting you for doing so?
or the fact that you are willing to do that to ruin othes enioyment from spreading around, thus making people not want to run it with you anymore?

what you talk about here is people just being straight douches, douchebaggery is not the issue at hand here

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ousting people from your party is irrelevant in an instance(leaving party generally doesnt mean leaving the instance), and if the content is difficult and has a recharge people would think twice about essentially guaranteeing a fail by kicking someone.

also if you can only do it once a day, every person who gets help from thier ls, or you, is one less person who can do it normally for that day. You are in fact lowering the pool of available people to do it normally.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

nah, again, difficulty slider
like with leves

people who want it to be more challenging can 2-5 star it

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Aye aye, w/e you fancy honey. I'd prefer 3 cactuar difficulty system thou.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Its not all about gear! Did the CoP missions drop any worthwile gear/loot? No. But those instanced dungeons were extremely fun because they were challenging. The level cap was a key part in maintaining that challenge.

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I will have to disagree with you on this one ^^
In FFXI the final drive for most "dungeons" was the gear, whether they were capped or not- BCNM (Kraken club mainly), Nyzul, Salvage, Dynamis, CoP's final rewards were the rings (e.g. Rajas Ring), Sky, Sea... they all dropped gear. Apart from capped mission "dungeons" or fights (BCNM/KSNM and MMM being the exceptions I can think of- it's been 7 or 8 months) they were only for story progression to get to the areas that dropped the gear that you wanted- still the end goal was gear. There was challenge as well of course, but all I see that we are getting right now are some "dungeon raids" to get drops. The harder more challenging fights and dungeons are hopefully still to come as part of the mission and job strands.

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Originally Posted by Physic

ousting people from your party is irrelevant in an instance(leaving party generally doesnt mean leaving the instance), and if the content is difficult and has a recharge people would think twice about essentially guaranteeing a fail by kicking someone.

also if you can only do it once a day, every person who gets help from thier ls, or you, is one less person who can do it normally for that day. You are in fact lowering the pool of available people to do it normally.

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but again, this is a different arguement altogether
we arent talking about players being douches and ruining the experience by doing something their party doesnt want them to do
thats something that can happen in anything you do and is completely unrelated to this whole discussion

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

it wont be that easy to get
you assume the drop rate will be very high

and why should you care how other people get their gear as long as they do it legaly

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It doesn't matter if the drop rate is low or high. A rank 50 character can beat a rank 30 dungeon lightyears more easily than a rank 30 character.

I care because the game balance implications affect everyone, not just you. If it only affected you I wouldn't care. But it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Even so, your point is your opinion and not shared by everyone. This thread is full of opinion. Neither is superior and neither is inferior. They are just different.

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It is a fact that steamrolling a rank 30 dungeon as a rank 50 player is easier than doing it as a rank 30.

It is a fact that you will then be rewarded good rank 30 items for putting in little effort.

It is a fact that having a reward mechanism that is not proportional to the risk and effort required has a detrimental effect on game balance.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

nah, again, difficulty slider
like with leves

people who want it to be more challenging can 2-5 star it

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That trash totally ruins this game. Because a "difficulty slider" just means bumping up the rank (hp/stats) of monsters. It doesn't change attack patterns or introduce the need for any type of strategy. We need something that requires strategy, not something that has a million HP for us to just zerg through.

we need caps in this game or it's just gonna be failed content.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

That trash totally ruins this game. Because a "difficulty slider" just means bumping up the rank (hp/stats) of monsters. It doesn't change attack patterns or introduce the need for any type of strategy. We need something that requires strategy, not something that has a million HP for us to just zerg through.

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and level capping people wont change anything either

its the same concept the difference being 1 is already implemented and the other will require more programming to add in, time and work that could be put somewhere more needed

a difficulty slider would be the perfect thing for people who want more challenge(it makes the mobs their rank after all)

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Originally Posted by Archadius

That trash totally ruins this game. Because a "difficulty slider" just means bumping up the rank (hp/stats) of monsters. It doesn't change attack patterns or introduce the need for any type of strategy. We need something that requires strategy, not something that has a million HP for us to just zerg through.

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quoted for simple truth. Limiting spells/abilities/rank for such content promotes new strategies in content. OR we can just cake walk through everything like Vedis and Durti want.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Absolutely not. One way or the other, preferential treatment benefits no one.

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But the fact that you can steamroll through it means you get the gear easier than someone who goes through with a party of R30s. Without a level cap, R50's (and their lazy friends) get preferential treatment.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It doesn't matter if the drop rate is low or high. A rank 50 character can beat a rank 30 dungeon lightyears more easily than a rank 30 character.

I care because the game balance implications affect everyone, not just you. If it only affected you I wouldn't care. But it doesn't.



It is a fact that steamrolling a rank 30 dungeon as a rank 50 player is easier than doing it as a rank 30.

It is a fact that you will then be rewarded good rank 30 items for putting in little effort.

It is a fact that having a reward mechanism that is not proportional to the risk and effort required has a detrimental effect on game balance.

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It is down right anti-Matsui.
This is in fact, contrary to the new mantra of battling. Rewarding effort and innovation, not halfhearted play.

It's the lazy players who like the idea of milking their R50s to twink themselves. They want paid for their R50 status as much as possible, because they're so bad that's the only worthwhile feature they bring to fights.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Who cares if you walk a mid-level player through a dungeon? That gear is (hopefully) not going to last long.

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I care! How dare you help out friends who are leveling-up get some unimportant mid-level gear. This type of play is unconscionable, everyone should have to walk up hill both ways in the middle of winter with nothing more than a pair of Old Navy shorts and one of their god awful printed Ts on to get the gear they need.

It seems the going assumption when you walk someone through a dungeon like that is that you're "steamrolling" people through and you're an enabling monster. I personally don't have issues helping friends out sometimes. That's not to say it can't be abused, but get off your jaded horses made entirely of bitterness and sad clowns, helping and being helped is part of what makes a community a community.

P.S. If you feel like doing the dungeon at R50 just for shits and giggles that's your prerogative. It's obvious that low level content is low level. Sometimes when you order a large pizza you're not the only one eating it.

P.P.S. We all make our beds and then sleep in them (unless you sleep in hammock I guess). The R30 who is being "steamrolled" through the dungeon, and the R50 "steamroller" are equally responsible for their actions. If the R50 is ok helping the R30 and the R30 is ok being helped, that isn't anybody's business but theirs.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

I care! How dare you help out friends who are leveling-up get some unimportant mid-level gear. This type of play is unconscionable, everyone should have to walk up hill both ways in the middle of winter with nothing more than a pair of Old Navy shorts and one of their god awful printed Ts on to get the gear they need.

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back in my day, we used to walk to school, 30 miles in the snow, buck naked, with a boner!

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

and level capping people wont change anything either

its the same concept the difference being 1 is already implemented and the other will require more programming to add in, time and work that could be put somewhere more needed

a difficulty slider would be the perfect thing for people who want more challenge(it makes the mobs their rank after all)

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Uhhhh... I didn't say ANYTHING about capping/uncapping. I am just against difficulty sliders in general. Those things are horrid. If we are going to have any sort of scaling difficulty, it needs to be in the form of strategy, NOT the way that levequest difficulty is currently handled.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It is a fact that steamrolling a rank 30 dungeon as a rank 50 player is easier than doing it as a rank 30.

It is a fact that you will then be rewarded good rank 30 items for putting in little effort.

It is a fact that having a reward mechanism that is not proportional to the risk and effort required has a detrimental effect on game balance.

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and it is a fact that they are leaving it uncapped so people will be within the rules.

and it is a fact that people are crying about the worry that someone may get something faster than they do.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It is a fact that steamrolling a rank 30 dungeon as a rank 50 player is easier than doing it as a rank 30.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It is a fact that you will then be rewarded good rank 30 items for putting in little effort.

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Agreed. Though I would argue that I spent my effort GETTING to r50 and after lingering for 5 months in FFXIV limbo that I am entitled to play content that should have been there to begin with, however I want to.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It is a fact that having a reward mechanism that is not proportional to the risk and effort required has a detrimental effect on game balance.

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Opinion. Do you see the difference? You have no way to qualify this statement as fact. 'YOU' 'THINK' it would have a detrimental effect. That is opinion.

Here is another fact for you: r50 gear is better than r30 gear.

So if rank 50 gear is better, then it is more valuable to a r50 player. If that is the case, then rank 30 gear is less valuable than rank 50 gear to a rank 50 player. By that logic then it is easy to see that r30 gear is less valuable to a r50 player, hence the REWARD for running a r30 dungeon WILL ALWAYS be less valuable to a r50. BALANCE!

Caps, im not sure about the Loot, it better be something diffrent or close to "FFXI" / "WoW" type
where some loot can be upgraded, hard earned via maybe beastcoins / currency.

Thats what made many ppl in both FFXI & WoW go hardcore, doing regular runs
instead of just zerging through 1 dungeon never to be done ever again.

We need somethign to drive us through longer periods of time, to strive for, then later be proud of.
Isnt that why we have LS atm and no Company...where we were suppose to work together?

Man...i really hope SE / Dev's understand this and take it into consideration if they want to get game back on it's feet.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

But the fact that you can steamroll through it means you get the gear easier than someone who goes through with a party of R30s. Without a level cap, R50's (and their lazy friends) get preferential treatment.

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Not if EVERYONE in the game can do it. Sorry, you're wrong. See my above post too.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

Uhhhh... I didn't say ANYTHING about capping/uncapping. I am just against difficulty sliders in general. Those things are horrid. If we are going to have any sort of scaling difficulty, it needs to be in the form of strategy, NOT the way that levequest difficulty is currently handled.

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adding a level cap doesnt promote strategy though
ill still have ALL my high level abilities

the difference between a slider and a cap is, with a cap, you FORCE people to play at that difficulty and level
with a slider you give them the option to make it harder if they WANT the challenge, without forcing people who just wanna do it to comform to that standard

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Originally Posted by Richard

it's not really about gear drops or targeting a specific audience. it's about making the game challenging to those who want a challenge and making it casual for those who want to be spoon fed.

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Casual =/= easy. Is that so hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

cop as a means to an end was a story driven chain
this is not a chain of quests/missions

they are 2 seperate dungeons

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But we don't actually know that we don't need to complete the low level one to unlock the second.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

That trash totally ruins this game. Because a "difficulty slider" just means bumping up the rank (hp/stats) of monsters. It doesn't change attack patterns or introduce the need for any type of strategy. We need something that requires strategy, not something that has a million HP for us to just zerg through.

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Scaling up will allow the strategies required at lower levels to be required at higher levels also, as opposed to levelling up negating the need for strategy.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

Confirmation of players winning the right to experience the dungeon the way they want to as long as they are the minimum level


lets face it, the lower dungeon isnt endgame, its mid game
mid game content, mid game challenge
endgame characters wont be going there for the challenge

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To be fair, both dungeons will eventually be mid-game. The level 30 dungeon will probably become regarded as a low-level dungeon.

If it's not capped at all then why in the name of holy J do I need FOUR people to even get inside this thing?

That's like half the population of my server!!

mygwadfaceknifeplease

Slider is a failure of an idea.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

no
everyone who runs it should have an equal chance at equal rewards, period


wasnt this discusses MANY months ago in all the casual vs hardcore stuff? how quickly we forgot that

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I am sorry but casual does not mean unskilled and unable to beat difficult content. it means you don't put as much TIME (not EFFORT) into the game because of life constraints. YES people who get through content under cap, therefore providing a bigger challenge should be rewarded with better stuff than people going the easy way with no cap. You saying that you do not agree with that and that everyone should be rewarded equally even if they choose to faceroll content just shows that this is what YOU think it fair and what you will probably exploit.

Rewards shoud scale with challenge, rewards should reward skillful play.
Games that rewards noobness or that think that challenging = long are already on the market.

Plus on your slider idea, slider =/= cap. Slider is still a system that could be exploited if the rewards were adjusted with difficulty and would still be content that would be trivial and outdated as time goes by. Even new players joining in a cople of years from now will skip those places and just level as fast as possible to get to end game since mid-level will offer nothing permanent in terms of reward/challenge.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Promathia missions were a chain of storyline missions and you would miss out on the expansion's story by not capping it, not just a single instance. I'm not missing anything if I decide not to run the r30 dungeon.

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Actually it seems like some of the back stories on the dungeons seem to be tied into the upcoming events.