Hissatsu: Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

My problem is that they said they did it for action bloat. The problem is that there are many others ways they could reduce button bloat without removing Kaiten. Combine Shoha 1 and 2 or Guren and Senei.

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They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

And what happens when no one wants to play healer then? Oh wait...

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Oh wait, what? What's your point other than leaving behind a rhetorical question like spit on a windshield?

If you're incapable of critical thinking, then just don't try. I understand you like to amuse yourself, but there are adults here as well.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Dropping the job because you don't like how it plays doesn't mean anything and doesn't change anything.

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I never said it's supposed to, nor is it my point. Dropping the job however, gives you one less thing to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)

As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.

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And with its removal, we just use more Shinten.

The "action bloat" is not solved, and the other 2nd most used action is used nearly twice as much.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

And what happens when no one wants to play healer then? Oh wait...

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Optimistically, SE realizes no one can run endgame content because no one wants to play healer, and makes adjustments to healers.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

And with its removal, we just use more Shinten.

The "action bloat" is not solved, and the other 2nd most used action is used nearly twice as much.



Optimistically, SE realizes no one can run endgame content because no one wants to play healer, and makes adjustments to healers.

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50%ish more, which is still a net reduction in skill usage.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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Guess what is going to be used even more than Hakaze, now that the only other meaningful gauge spender is being removed? So might as well remove Shinten. And then, might as well remove the job gauge. This logic is really detrimental to job design. SAM doesn't have an action bloat problem. So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Oh wait, what? What's your point other than leaving behind a rhetorical question like spit on a windshield?

If you're incapable of critical thinking, then just don't try. I understand you like to amuse yourself, but there are adults here as well.



I never said it's supposed to, nor is it my point. Dropping the job however, gives you one less thing to complain about.

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Ah yes, "stop caring because I don't care either". People really just come to the forums to shit on people that care about the game.

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Originally Posted by SeaJae

Guess what is going to be used even more than Hakaze, now that the only other meaningful gauge spender is being removed? So might as well remove Shinten. And then, might as well remove the job gauge. This logic is really detrimental to job design. SAM doesn't have an action bloat problem. So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

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I dont think you understand how half kaiten + shinten is less than shinten + kaiten.

Hakaze is the most used skill because it starts 3 combos.

Again, you all are over-reacting and using words that spark fear to push your point across. Its not a huge loss.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

50%ish more, which is still a net reduction in skill usage.

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Top SAM parse in P4S P2 had 33 Kaitens over 6:43 kill time, CPM for kaiten is 4.9
Translate that into 660 Kenki and you get 26.4 Shintens instead, for a reduction of 1 in CPM to 3.9, with the added effect of making the gameplay more braindead

Top SAM in ShB usually have CPM of 47 or higher, and there weren't complaints to action bloat.
Now the top CPM of samurai is just around 46, and all the sudden there exists an action bloat problem.

Samurai, by virtue of their skillspeed buff, and the fact that the kenki gauge cost the spammable skills are 25 or less (compared to most other jobs' gauge dump being 50), will inherently have a high CPM.

If there were no complaints of action bloat in ShB, then there is no argument for action bloat now that the CPM has already been lowered.
And given that there is no action bloat, there is no need to remove kaiten.

Also guess what changed from 4.x to 5.x? they gutted Hagakure and added Tsubame Gaeshi so samurai won't be shinten spamming. Unless the entire kenki system gets reworked, samurais will go back to shinten spams.

"Remove to improve" strikes again.

Can't wait when they finally remove tank stances too because in a few years even Genshin Impact gonna have more skills/keys to use than FFXIV

Man.

They really fucked up job gauges bad by turning almost every skill that uses one into being the only skill that uses one. Job gauge skills are now pretty much normal cooldowns with a different coat of paint that are sometimes slightly easier to unload during burst windows.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This bothers me more than the change to SAM specifically. And part of it is due to hardcore players insisting on set rotations and syncing up burst windows, and the devs responding by making fights even more scripted to a timer and moving even more jobs toward 1 or 2 minute burst rotations.

That bores me. I want reactionary gameplay, not a piece of music I have to memorize. I want to actually feel good for making immediate choices, not feel bad for not being perfectly in sync with a bunch of drones. But people treated the game that way and it has become the dominant paradigm.

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imagine blaming 'hardcore' players for these issues
lol
lmao

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I have to stop moving for Ten Chi Jen and if I do move, the rotation is thrown off because I miss the Sulton at the end. It's way more punishing than Midare and has the exact same stipulation of being unable to move but at least all I do with Midare is delay the skill a second or two. You're argument that Midare is some sort of stutter is asinine. I don't even play SAM or NIN and I can tell you, I much prefer SAM's "stutter" to NIN's Ten Chi Jen any day of the week.

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Too be frank, hadn't played Nin in a while and completely forgot that "Ten Chi Jen" was the name of that skill, and it does feel annoying having to stand still to use it. Still it's only once every 2 min and every 2nd burst, compared to Sam which has to deal with it's annoyance every 20ish second.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This bothers me more than the change to SAM specifically. And part of it is due to hardcore players insisting on set rotations and syncing up burst windows, and the devs responding by making fights even more scripted to a timer and moving even more jobs toward 1 or 2 minute burst rotations.

That bores me. I want reactionary gameplay, not a piece of music I have to memorize. I want to actually feel good for making immediate choices, not feel bad for not being perfectly in sync with a bunch of drones. But people treated the game that way and it has become the dominant paradigm.

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My biggest complaint with the jobs in FFXIV, they are almost exclusively fixed rotations, with dancer, bard and blm being outliners. To diversify it a bit they could at least have made it so that not every resource generation had fixed numbers, so instead of 5 it could have been 4-7 or 10 on crit.

Dancer also suffers from being stuck with the same gcd as all other jobs resulting in their core rotation feeling like an absolute bore.

Just add me to the list of people mad about that change. It's not too late to revert it. And instead remove Shoha II and Guren and just make them upgrades to single target equivalents.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

"Remove to improve" strikes again.

Can't wait when they finally remove tank stances too because in a few years even Genshin Impact gonna have more skills/keys to use than FFXIV

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More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

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But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. Try doing the samurai opener and rotation optimally and you will see that it does require you to stop yourself from using Shinten on cooldown.

Also how often do you even use Kaiten, its used once per minute on Higanbana, and once on every Iaijutsu + Ogi Namikiri... It has an average cast of 4.5 per minute or so. That's one cast every 15 seconds. Look at how often people use it across a fight, seriously.

Reasoning this change on button bloat is weird and not so rational, turning Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri, or replacing Shoha with Shoha 2 would be better ways to address button bloat without sacrificing job mechanics / complexity.
If you do not play Samurai, nor understand the opener / how it works, please refrain from saying whether or not a button carries no weight or impact. You need a better understanding of the job first.
All this change does is it lowers the skill floor of the job while taking away 1 button and a cool animation.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

Snip

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admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

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Originally Posted by Dzian

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

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I understand what your saying about it being a choice, and you are right you always want to use Kaiten before any Iaijutsu, but you are not getting my point also.
My point in short is that you have to not use Shinten whenever you want, so that you have enough for a Kaiten. Kaiten is mandatory before every Iaijutsu and strict, while Shinten is not, so you are making a choice to not use Shinten when you have >25 Kenki because if you got a Iaijutsu coming up you won't have enough for the mandatory Kaiten.
I hope it makes sense now.

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Originally Posted by SeaJae

[...]So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

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You should accept their "opinion" on what the devs meant because the unofficial translation of what they were talking about mentioned that there was a mistranslation and they meant "actions" or "button presses" bloat, not hotbar bloat.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

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You're missing the point by zooming in too much on Kaiten; The weight of Kaiten isn't felt with Kaiten itself, it's with the need to manage your Kenki gauge to make sure you will/do have enough Kenki to spend on Kaiten whenever you're going to use Iaijutsu while ALSO spamming Shinten. This becomes "If I use Shinten now, I have 2 more attacks in this combo left to generate Kenki before I'll need to hit Kaiten, are those attacks going to generate the Kenki that I need for Kaiten? Or should I hold on using Shinten?"

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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Stardiver hits like a wet noodle. Nothing about that move feels good when it takes 9 years to get to it when doing the optimized rotation. That said, who cares if kaiten is used a lot? In terms of "action bloat" nothing changes because we're all just going to replace it with shinten. The button APM stays exactly the same.

I'm not even a SAM main (heck mine is not even at 90) but even I will feel the loss of Kaiten just because I think it looks cool af and it feels good to use it, it really feels like I'm charging a big attack

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Stardiver hits like a wet noodle. Nothing about that move feels good when it takes 9 years to get to it when doing the optimized rotation. That said, who cares if kaiten is used a lot? In terms of "action bloat" nothing changes because we're all just going to replace it with shinten. The button APM stays exactly the same.

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Agreed with Stardiver; Agreed with who cares if it is used alot; I'm going to be pedantic (mainly as sarcasm to show how dumb the change is), but Shinten costs 5 more Kenki so it'll only be used 4/5ths of the number of Kaitens used. (Let's be real though, they're CLEARLY also going to lower the amount of Kenki that we generate to make it so that we use Shinten the same amount that we do now).

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Originally Posted by ThivraK

imagine blaming 'hardcore' players for these issues
lol
lmao

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It's been a self-reinforcing feedback loop, and hardcore raiders have been part of that. Though I also think that the game's design--across several facets--was what started everything in that direction.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

My biggest complaint with the jobs in FFXIV, they are almost exclusively fixed rotations, with dancer, bard and blm being outliners. To diversify it a bit they could at least have made it so that not every resource generation had fixed numbers, so instead of 5 it could have been 4-7 or 10 on crit.

Dancer also suffers from being stuck with the same gcd as all other jobs resulting in their core rotation feeling like an absolute bore.

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Except as we have been seeing, the game is constantly *reducing* damage variability. And again I don't think it's totally hardcore raiders fault because the devs seem quite trigger happy when it comes to killing off job skills and entire mechanics like multiclassing, different equippable weapons, elemental weaknesses, TP, healer damage, and now DoT and crits. They have been oversimplifying gleefully. But while some of these changes are definitely in service of casual players, reducing damage variability is pretty much solely to please parsers. For casuals it wouldn't matter because they suck at combat, and for most midcores it's actually a negative because variability *is* the fun.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

But while some of these changes are definitely in service of casual players, reducing damage variability is pretty much solely to please parsers. For casuals it wouldn't matter because they suck at combat, and for most midcores it's actually a negative because variability *is* the fun.

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Reducing damage variability is not to please the parsers, it's so that you're not singling out and gimping certain classes for certain fights. I imagine that parsers would LOVE to put together the perfect "Slashing team" for a boss that is weak to slashing with +slashing buffs and 6 SAMs/NINs and cackle gleefully as they top all of the parses. The problem with that is the _casual_ or _semi-casual_ players that only have MNK or a caster leveled being kept out of that fight because maybe that boss is strong against crushing/magic. It's so that fights are arbitrarily nerfing certain classes because if that happens you'll absolutely see bad players not taking those people because they don't understand that the difference between a good play and a bad player is even more important.

Variability isn't fun when it results in you not getting invited to a group because of the job you play/want to play.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Reducing damage variability is not to please the parsers, it's so that you're not singling out and gimping certain classes for certain fights. I imagine that parsers would LOVE to put together the perfect "Slashing team" for a boss that is weak to slashing with +slashing buffs and 6 SAMs/NINs and cackle gleefully as they top all of the parses. The problem with that is the _casual_ or _semi-casual_ players that only have MNK or a caster leveled being kept out of that fight because maybe that boss is strong against crushing/magic. It's so that fights are arbitrarily nerfing certain classes because if that happens you'll absolutely see bad players not taking those people because they don't understand that the difference between a good play and a bad player is even more important.

Variability isn't fun when it results in you not getting invited to a group because of the job you play/want to play.

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I don't agree with this, because you are kind of blurring the line between the two.

Damage typing was removed yes, to make all jobs "viable" and accessible for casuals/midcores.

Damage *variability*, particularly when it comes to critical hits, buff windows, and rotation bloat, is what has been consistently removed for the sake of parsers.

There is some overlap and the two do affect each other. A lot of changes made for the sake of casuals like removing of elemental/damage typing, TP, etc. do *de facto* affect damage variability even if that is not the primary purpose. But reduction of crits and the homogenization of buff windows is purely in service of hardcore raiders.

Which, in a similar vein, I have been hearing a lot of people whinging for Blood Weapon stacks on DRK along with Delirium and it is something I just don't agree with. I don't want *every* ability on a job to be a stack. I *like* weird buff windows. It's not efficient but it at least keeps gameplay interesting.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. T

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Exactly.

Kenki now becomes the Shinten gauge. This means the gauge has far less point and Shinten is just a mindless filler. Somewhere down the line they'll probably make Senai and Gyoten plain oGCD's to "streamline" it, then eventually remove Kenki entirely and make Shinten a plain 30 sec oGCD.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

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You can apply this to so many things. Maintenance buffs for a start. The 1 step in your 1-2-3 combo is just "tedious filler" to use 2 and 2 is tedious filler to reach 3. Why do RPR's have to press Blood Stalk and Gluttony? Why do NIN always have to press Mudras? Why make DNC's do 3 steps? What's the point of any ability that grants resource or gauge, just make them recharge a little faster. Or a better example is why does Reassemble exist on MCH still or Zoe on SGE.

Kaiten gives the Kenki gauge purpose. If they wanted to get rid of it, they should have added something else to keep the gauge meaningful.

To the person whom I once saw in DF who mentioned that new Summoner is a rewarding and complex job.
The loss of the prefrontal cortex is a serious issue, and should not be something to aim for with the other jobs.

As I saw commets in other places, they don't need to simplify ALL the jobs, I mean, we already have a "easy mode" in a lot of classes, Dancer/Red Mage/White mage and the new Summoner.
Samurai it's not one of the jobs that need to be simplified, the motive for that? It's simple, Samurai is a hard hitting DPS, the one that deal the most personal damage actually, and it would be unfair to not "punish" poor resource management while the Caster counterpart (Black Mage) is still a hard punishing job in hard content.
If you want to drag yourself through the content, that's fine, pick a "easy mode" class. If you don't want to waste time praticing your rotation on a dummy with DPS, then pick Summoner. If you don't like depth in a class or a game, it's fine, pick up a easy class, but there are people that like the challenge, and they need to be reached too. I agree that there's no "easy mode" melee DPS, but that class must NOT be Samurai. I don't even play Samurai, but it's about empathy you know?

TL;DR: If you don't like in-depth classes that requires training, pick a "easy mode" class.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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You can use the same logic for pretty much any and every ability in this game. Remove X because all it does is X. Not a good arguement in any way.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If looking cool is all that mattered, we'd still have Power Slash and Grenado Shot and a bunch of other cool lookin' skills.

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So many great looking abilities left for dead. I loved all of drks finishers except souleater. Why is the ugliest ability the one we have to spam?

I've only played SAM very casually, but busting out a full power burst combo on SAM has always been huge fun, and kaiten is a part of that. It will be missed. SAM really isn't overly complex either, it has a relatively low floor to at least be competent.


If they really want to trim a button, they could make Shoha II a proc that follows Shoha I on the same button.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

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No, you'd just use it for every higanbana or ogi namikiri. There'd be no strategy still because SE is streamlining jobs to that point and there's always a best use for something. You're basically just suggesting Reassembled but for SAM. And if thinking about strategizing the job is fun to you then how can you be in support of streamlining jobs? Taking away Kaiten reduces the thinking needed with kenki management from 1 braincell to 0.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.



pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

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You skip the first Kaiten on the first Midare, then proceed as normal. And then without shinten you have nothing to spend it on but kaiten which is also not deep or engaging. I don't understand how "it's not deep or engaging" is an argument to make something even less deep or engaging?

And allow me to pose this argument - Less skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. Cookie Clicker is not a fun or invigorating gameplay experience because you only have one button to press, though I suppose with the arguments I see here some people seem to think it's peak video game design.

FFXIV raid design has always been a dance. Very rarely do they utilize a stun/interrupt which is about the biggest "impact" you can use a skill on a fight. Every other skill basically serves to do damage, reduce damage taken, or heal. FFXIV has a slow gcd speed and the reason for that is so you can better utilize ogcds. Take off all your ogcds and play through P1S, you'll have so much free time on your hands. I took Kaiten off my hotbar with my static's weekly run on Tuesday for P1S, the gameplay felt way more empty, and that's with still using shinten and third eye. How incredibly boring it would be to not have to weave anything. The basis of your argument is pointlessly reductionist, 95% of the buttons in the game serves to do damage, reduce damage taken, or heal - so by your argument it's all bloat.

Yes, I'm very saddened to hear about it's removal, and I'm hoping SE back tracks on it.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

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This alone tells me you don't know how to play the class, so its hard to take what you say serious. But, Kaiten is one of the few skills that actually tie a classes 2 gauges together. I think most players would rather keep kaiten and have the whole meditation system scrapped to reduce button bloat. Which shoha only exists, because meditate served little purpose originally, so instead of removing a useless skill the repurposed it into something that wasn't needed. Sadly kaiten being removed is making samurai like most classes, have a gauge that is used for a single skill. Which at that point why even have the gauge at all it's now just screen clutter.

Ngl, I really just came into the forums to say my piece about this.

I still don't understand why people are arguing about Kaiten and its purpose. Yeah, sure, we all use it to really just power up iajutsu, but it's probably the only skill that lets us do constant resource management which, if you're doing your rotation correctly, isn't a problem that you should come across. Also, that person who said Kaiten carries no weight or impact clearly don't understand what Kaiten represents for SAM. It's a cool looking animation, is the only actual skill that makes us manage resources, as slack as that department has been for SAM, and is the only skill (i think it's the only one anyway) where sen and kenki are both actually being utilized which i thought was a cool mechanic.

Don't get me wrong, but honestly, I feel like people who advocate for kaiten removal just don't want to deal with that very simple resource management and just makes us lose another ogcd that actually felt important - and can be very annoying if you make a mistake with wasting kenki when you lose the opportunity to use iajutsu in some situations - and it doesn't feel like a filler unlike shinten. So.....if they don't revert this decision, guess we back to shinten spamming? Just like the ye olde days of 4.0 just without hagakure then. But hey, apparently Kaiten is less important of the two.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.



pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

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The thing is, you need to use it before most iaijutsu yes. But it costs kenki, so to use it, you need to keep a balance between using shinten to not overcap but not use it too much so you don't have enough anymore. The problem is that, by removing it, you will just now spam shinten when you have 25, without a single speck of thinking and if you optimize you will spend it at 90/95 just to spend it under buffs at once. That will be the only utility of that gauge, which ... seems consistent with a lot of jobs now, having a gauge that is barely used for one thing with minimum interaction. And yes, when learning samurai you will do mistakes and not have enough to do Kaiten, but mistakes are what makes you learn, sadly the dev wants to remove all the ""noob traps"" that can lead people to do any mistakes.

But if you think that "kaiten do not bring much complexity", you should read: that's how low the bar already is, that's how much the game already is far too simple. it's something that drk/mch/healers have gone through between sb and shb without many people talking about, it's sad that it took them to touch samurai for people to begin to riot. Sadly, with yoship saying nice takes like: aha I remember when people asked us to make the game more difficult in HW, it's not something we want to do anymore or if people want engaging content, they can do ultimate or even: ou healer "that can kinda heal extreme" became too good, so we had to replace it. That means 99% of the content is made to just be a visual novel while the gameplay is relayed to the background, and that includes the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You can apply this to so many things. Maintenance buffs for a start. The 1 step in your 1-2-3 combo is just "tedious filler" to use 2 and 2 is tedious filler to reach 3. Why do RPR's have to press Blood Stalk and Gluttony? Why do NIN always have to press Mudras? Why make DNC's do 3 steps? What's the point of any ability that grants resource or gauge, just make them recharge a little faster. Or a better example is why does Reassemble exist on MCH still or Zoe on SGE.

Kaiten gives the Kenki gauge purpose. If they wanted to get rid of it, they should have added something else to keep the gauge meaningful.

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True but at the same time Ninjas mudras is probably the best example of how it only takes a few buttons to create engaging game play. 4 or 5 buttons on ninja can drop 8 or 9 different skills with different effects depending on how you interact with them..

i find it to be one of the most engaging jobs for that reason alone. perhaps a little less so since they put mudras on the gcd but still those 4 buttons (5 with kassatsu) do more than any other buttons in the game imo.

as for the rest of you're quote combat itself has been pretty tedious since beta.. and slowly getting worse.. early ARR combat was ok in coils where there was a lot more to do than just hitthings till there dead. but so many elements of combat have died, resource management, (mp tp) eminity, crowd control, weaknesses, placement, (gotta bind that golem in just the right place to get petrified so you can hide behind it) and now its just mindlessly whack out the same rotation till its dead..

and what makes it tedious is that when the next patch comes with new content and new bosses it's essentially the same rotation yet again.. and the next patch after that and after that and so on..

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

This alone tells me you don't know how to play the class, so its hard to take what you say serious. But, Kaiten is one of the few skills that actually tie a classes 2 gauges together. I think most players would rather keep kaiten and have the whole meditation system scrapped to reduce button bloat. Which shoha only exists, because meditate served little purpose originally, so instead of removing a useless skill the repurposed it into something that wasn't needed. Sadly kaiten being removed is making samurai like most classes, have a gauge that is used for a single skill. Which at that point why even have the gauge at all it's now just screen clutter.

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honestly its not a difficult class to play. basicaslly never let your kenki drop below 20 and you're golden. Always keep 20 for either kaiten or Yaten / gap closer if you want to optimise uptime. boom done..

only 83 at present though but i cant imaging it changes that drastically at 90..

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Originally Posted by Divinewindx

Yes, I'm very saddened to hear about it's removal, and I'm hoping SE back tracks on it.

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I don't.

Samurai has way too many buttons, it's almost crossing the boundary of what a controller can handle.

Kaiten is boring from a gameplay perspective. It just artificially raises the skill floor and punishes you for miscalculating your Kenki. Also a skill that just boosts your next weaponskill isn't really the pinnacle of interesting game design...

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't agree with this, because you are kind of blurring the line between the two.

Damage typing was removed yes, to make all jobs "viable" and accessible for casuals/midcores.

Damage *variability*, particularly when it comes to critical hits, buff windows, and rotation bloat, is what has been consistently removed for the sake of parsers.

There is some overlap and the two do affect each other. A lot of changes made for the sake of casuals like removing of elemental/damage typing, TP, etc. do *de facto* affect damage variability even if that is not the primary purpose. But reduction of crits and the homogenization of buff windows is purely in service of hardcore raiders.

Which, in a similar vein, I have been hearing a lot of people whinging for Blood Weapon stacks on DRK along with Delirium and it is something I just don't agree with. I don't want *every* ability on a job to be a stack. I *like* weird buff windows. It's not efficient but it at least keeps gameplay interesting.

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I misunderstood what you meant by damage variability; You're talking about autocrits/DHs.

Even then I disagree it was made for hardcore raiders because I'm sure that they don't want to have multiple materia melds for each of the jobs that they want to play. Adding autocrit to SAM abilities is going to mean that crit materia is going to be less useful on SAM which will lead to yet another job that doesn't really share ideal melds with jobs that share the same gear. Magical Ranged is already a mess when it comes to that, and WAR is much different from the rest of the tanks because of its auto DH.

I can't see any hardcore player wanting something like this. They LIKE damage variability.

Homogenization of buff windows is, again, not in the service of hardcore raiders. "Hardcore" raiders would easily be able to line up buffs with different cooldowns (IF that's something that would deem to be useful. They would be able to easily go through the math of the buff and see whether holding a 90 cooldown for 30 seconds is worth it to stack the buff with 120 second buffs. That is stuff that "hardcore" raiders LOVE to do. The change to buff windows was squarely done to lower/remove the large DPS difference between midcore/lowcore raiders and hardcore raiders. I'm sure hardcore raiders dislike the change because it removes skill expression and puts them closer in performance to those midcore raiders.

I agree with you on the Blood Weapon/Delirium stacks; I enjoy knowing what buffs need to be done in the second OGCD window to ensure that you get all of the GCDs you need into them. But I think the people whining for those stacks are just wondering WHY they went ahead and streamlined it for jobs like WAR, but didn't for DRK (and they typically bring it up as "proof" that DRK is largely neglected).

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Originally Posted by GaleMex

I don't.

Samurai has way too many buttons, it's almost crossing the boundary of what a controller can handle.

Kaiten is boring from a gameplay perspective. It just artificially raises the skill floor and punishes you for miscalculating your Kenki. Also a skill that just boosts your next weaponskill isn't really the pinnacle of interesting game design...

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Kaiten isn't a skill floor thing, it's a skill ceiling. You're not punished to the point of uselessness if you miss a Kaiten, it's just there to reward people who are able to calculate it correctly. Boring is subjective and I disagree but I can't really argue that.

As for SAM having too many buttons, I almost agree with you. I play on controller and it's a bit rough, but there are TONS of alternative changes that could be made instead of getting rid of Kaiten:

Make Shoha II replace Shoha and have big attack + fall off damage to enemies around the target
Combine Shinten and Kyuten into a single attack that does high damage + fall off damage to enemies around the target
Combine Guren and Senei into a single attack that does high damage + fall off damage to enemies around the target
Have Tsubame-gaeshi replace Iaijutsu after a cast instead of having it a separate button
Have Ogi Namikiri replace Ikishoten once used

That would free up 5 buttons while not at all changing the gameplay of the job.