Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And I tire of you repeatedly reading only what you want to. No one, ever, in any of the what, four parse threads that have been on the main page over the last month, have claimed parsers have no issues. Only you have insisted this nonsense. We all acknowledge there will be abuse, just like people abuse Vote Kick and etc. What we actually argue is the positives will outweigh the negatives, and bad applies should be properly reprimanded.

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This person wants us to believe there will be no abuse, sure others may do what you said but:

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Of course I can evaluate parser culture. I've been a better part of it in over a decade of MMO gaming across half a dozen MMO's with both hidden and public parsing.

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also comming from someone that is selective who they play with. This person is not willing to admit it would bring more problems then help in the current state of the game, as shown by this quote as well:

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Originally Posted by Legion88

It's also his statement in the LL before SB that the skill gap between the average player and the mid- to hardcore player is extremly high and the job adjustments are part of the agenda to close the gap and as long as the gap is as high as now he wont add a parser or something in the line of this.

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I'm legitimately not trying to be obtuse here, but I'm finding some of your comments such as the above really quite hard to follow?

Are you suggesting that because Kaldea prefers to do stuff with their static when possible, that means that their opinion on the wider scene within the game is null and void? Do you have the impression that they are a hardcore purist that only ever runs content within their own cliche? You make these statements with seeming authority, yet not once have I seen you state or show anything that might suggest that your own experience is somehow more valid? 'I played WoW and it was like a scene out of Harry Brown' doesn't really do it for me, sorry =/

Next up, lets dig a little further into the statement your quote from Legion88 is referring to:

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Q: Can we have an in-game parser for ourselves?
HE FREAKIN TRIED TO WALK OUT AND THEY HAD TO STOP HIM! Resounding no.
He understands people want to see theirs, that it helps people play, but then people in the party will demand to know what a person's DPS is, which would lead to fights.
Then, if they release it, it's only a matter of time until it's retooled by fans to see everyone else's.
He is 100% certain that an official parser would lead to fighting and abuse.
Don't rule it out forever, he says. First priority is to better balance the system to close the gap between casuals and hardcore players. After that, they will think about it again.
He doesn't know if he can say this, but is planning out a system that may potentially show DPS, but not as a number, but as something, then showing you how you do on another try - Yoshi moves to the next question.

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Ok cool, now things are actually a little clearer.

First up, for the most part, it is as you say, Yoshida is very much against it as things are right now. Literally no one in this thread is denying that.

Continuing on, regarding the following:

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He understands people want to see theirs, that it helps people play, but then people in the party will demand to know what a person's DPS is, which would lead to fights.
Then, if they release it, it's only a matter of time until it's retooled by fans to see everyone else's.

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The view that it would lead to fights is pretty fair, I'm not going to deny anyone the 'right' to feel that way. However, the second point isn't strictly true, if the parser was entirely built into the client with no data getting sent back to the server, it would be literally impossible to read another player's data without some form of backdoor into their client. The only way in which this statement could be twisted into the truth would be if someone were to take the damage formulae, put them into a standalone DLL and have the throughput analyse every player's metrics via a standalone program. This sounds awfully familiar does it not? ;)

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He is 100% certain that an official parser would lead to fighting and abuse.

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Again, a fair view and one that is shared by many people. I don't strictly agree with it, but then discussions are boring when everyone agrees so yay for diversity! :o

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Don't rule it out forever, he says. First priority is to better balance the system to close the gap between casuals and hardcore players. After that, they will think about it again.

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This goes hand in hand with the situation these forums find themselves in more and more as of late. Go back to late ARR/Early HW and the forum moderators were still highly intolerant of parser talk. I got banned for making a video guide here covering the means of doing huge DPS as a SCH in the early HW dungeons, it had a fairly detailed DPS breakdown within it and I promptly got banned over that specifically (and have an email response clarifying as such). Roll forward to the current day and we have people actively and openly talking specific numbers, linking logs, showing screen caps and even mentioning the software involved. SE's stance on the subject has pretty clearly softened and this goes hand in hand with what Yoshida has said.

Do I think this means that we're about to get an in-game parser? Frankly no. However, I do think that it is something that the team are very likely observing and taking an interest in the ebb and flow of the communities views on these subjects. As such, I feel that it's important that however passionately we might feel about our opinions, it's important that we all do our best to put them forth in both a readable and constructive manner. That goes for both sides of the coin.

Special bonus quote:

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He doesn't know if he can say this, but is planning out a system that may potentially show DPS, but not as a number, but as something, then showing you how you do on another try - Yoshi moves to the next question.

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Oh snap!

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

also comming from someone that is selective who they play with. This person is not willing to admit it would bring more problems then help in the current state of the game, as shown by this quote as well:

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Sigh

How do I put this?

If we were to gather a hub of a players, set about 10. 2 of them are regularly bad apples but 8 of them are good people.

According to your statement, which you have cited as an absolute time and time again, the use of a parser would have one of those 8 good people turn bad without fail.

This is how we understand your use of "more harassment" and also why it doesn't make sense to us. Since those two bad people are already bad to begin with, you can't have any "more harassment" than those two already produce. So that only leaves the argument that only way it harassment can increase in a quantifiable way is that one of the 8 good people go bad.

Do you now see why people like me and Kaldea and many others can't grasp that? Because you've stated that this exact situation will absolutely happen. It's already crazy to think that people's good behaviour in this game's current policy will absolutely change for the worst if SE decided to give the green light to full blown parse tommorow.

TL;DR: you can't quantifiably have more harassment out of a set of people who are already parsing if it already exist. Stating that it absolutely will increase implies people's current behaviour when parsing is tied directly to the tool.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Raiders would adapt. I agree they would and always do. I have a hypothetical question about that though. Would they be able to adapt to not using any parsers at all? Say the combat log was removed (since that's what parsers read) and thus, they could no longer be used at all. Could raiders still adapt to that?

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This already happens, partially. DoT based damage does not show up in the combat log at all, but parsers still somehow measure it.

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Originally Posted by Awha

If I happen to play on console or had no desire to download a third party program I would follow the guides and information on internet.

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-_-

You answered my question with the statement that prompted me to ask the question in the first place...

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Maybe if we asked them to release a parser on mogstation we might get an official one that way.

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DELETE this immediately before you give ANYONE ideas.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

For Tenacity, that is being misinformed, people do not do that at all. What people do is debate full ten builds vs getting Tenacity on gear and with DH melds basically and making sure you get x tier of Tenacity before going all out in DH, depending on the build it is only 1-3% mitigation for some increase in dps (varies) Tenacity is not really a finished stat, more like beta since it is new anyway.

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Maybe I am wrong, but I think you're the one who is misinformed (do you even have a tank leveled?) I don't recall many actually debating tiers of tenacity. I do remember people debating tenacity OR DH as a function of durability vs. damage, with DH winning out almost universally among the raiding community.

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You never answered me, what exactly is your main point trying to mislead people parser harassment does not happen?

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Please look through my post history. Find me the quote that says parser harassment does not happen. I will wait.

What do you want me to answer? If it's the question you just asked me, I'm not answering that because I cannot. Not only am I not misleading anyone (ironic coming from you), but it's also not an accurate statement.

That'd be like me saying, Hey Beastmistress why is color purple green. See how silly that sounds?

If you want to know my main reason for posting in these threads it is because I fundamentally believe that an unmitigated parser would be a good tool for the community for reasons I have previously stated.

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Full public parser will never happen for this game, PERIOD! No matter how much one single person in a vocal minority tries to claim it is not an issue. I find it funny and semi ironic someone being semi-passive aggressive is trying to argue there is no issues with parsers.

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I really hate to sound like a broken record, but are you familiar with the concept of irony?

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Wanna know why that happens? in WoW you are not in the general average public, where in ffxiv you are putting your self in it. Simple. You do not know WoW's common because you do not put your self in it. Despite this and your list with problems you seen in the general public of FFXIV, you do not see full public parsers making it worse? this is the internet, keep this in mind.

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I've already given examples that directly refute this assertion. Please do not make me repeat them. You're welcome to go back to that post and refute them if you can.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

This person wants us to believe there will be no abuse, sure others may do what you said but

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See above. I will wait for you to find me stating that. The quote you linked did nothing of the sort.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

selective who they play with

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Can you please explain, what you want to say with this?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

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The whole post was the answer to your question, not just the first sentence. I know my English is bad, but if you read past that one sentence you would know my answer. Sorry about my English but if you are not going to bother to read the whole post please do not bother to quote me. I know my English is not the best and may be hard to understand so I will paste it here again maybe it was lost in the shuffle.

If I happen to play on console or had no desire to download a third party program I would follow the guides and information on internet. Also people have put together decent rotations from just class previews, they are far from perfect and if say SE blocked ACT tomorrow and a new class came out. The theory crafting community with time would come up with an on point rotation. Granted it would take a little more time for the community to come up with said rotation but I am pretty sure they will be able to do it. People are funny like that, if they want something bad enough they will figure it out no matter how long it takes. Parse makes the gathering and viewing of data easier, but I am pretty sure those work on said programs know how to view the data without the use of a parse so in short they would still have access to that data.

End of the day ACT is not going anywhere we will still have access to the tool. I just highly doubt SE will ever release any official means of tracking performance especially after one of their hosts for nico nico was more or less bash their sub-par numbers. Granted it is one case I highly doubt Yoshi-P will be forgetting said case anytime soon. Maybe if powers shift and Yoshi-P is moved to another project we might get an official one, but while he is behind the helm I highly doubt it.

Though to be frank I do not understand your position, you make it seem as if people are asking for the removal of the tools from the game, I do not think I have seen a single post that is asking for the removal of the third party tools. Just lack of desire for an official one. The information is out there, ACT is not going anywhere so theory crafters and guide makers will still be able to do their thing. So what is your position or better yet why do you quote one part of my post even though and frame it as no tool will be available to help people theory craft? I feel as if you are trying to start conflict here where there is none. Point remains adding an official parser may help some, but in the end a quick google search leads people to many guides from players that already did the research. If players pulling say 1500 dps do not bother to use google to get a basic opener and rotation I fail to see how making an official parse will change their mindset and cause them to improve. A parser can help refine play, but not every player needs one to play better. Sure access to that kind of data can help push a player to that next step, but to reach the bare minimum of acceptable performance a guide with rotation and opener coupled with a little practice is all that is needed. If a player wants to go above the data provided by a parser helps. and if said player wants to push that far they will find a means to get that data if it is that important to them.

All and all with Yoshi-P at the helm we will never get an official parser thanks to a few bad apples and the stigma it carries. As someone else mentioned before this is the hill they choose to die on. We will never change that, so let us just use the tools that we have in place since I do not see SE breaking ACT anytime soon.

Didn't the community, at some point in pre-HW, come up with a better rotation than SE had for a class? I think it was NIN, but can't recall if that was the one or not.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Didn't the community, at some point in pre-HW, come up with a better rotation than SE had for a class? I think it was NIN, but can't recall if that was the one or not.

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It was in early SB, when NIN got a nerf to ther second(?) tier of the combos because the community doesn't use their expected way of playing the job and were dishing out higher numbers as expected.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

It was in early SB, when NIN got a nerf to ther second(?) tier of the combos because the community doesn't use their expected way of playing the job and were dishing out higher numbers as expected.

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Huh...I thought there was one before SB that it happened to as well, where someone with a parser(I think, honestly can't remember) found a much more optimal rotation to what SE had.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

This person wants us to believe there will be no abuse, sure others may do what you said but:

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You are putting words in Kaldea's mouth. Nowhere in her post did she claim abuse wouldn't happen far as I can tell. She only mentioned wanting to play with people of a comparable skill level. Depending on the content, I share that sentiment. When farming Shinryu, I'm not one to stick around long if I notice I'm woefully out-dpsing the party. Why? I can find another group and kill it faster. Considering I'll need at least 99 attempts unless I get lucky (I did, thank god), I prefer fast and efficient. My stance changes in say, a learning party, where I'll be infinitely more patient.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

also comming from someone that is selective who they play with. This person is not willing to admit it would bring more problems then help in the current state of the game, as shown by this quote as well:

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This already happens. Have you ever been in a party that absurdly disbands after a few wipes? Odds are high the party leader had ACT running and didn't like what they saw. As noted above, I have ducked out of parties purely because the DPS was too low. Keep in mind, I am far from a top tier 99% player nor do I have such expectations from my peers going into pugs. Would I kick someone for low DPS? Maybe. If it were enough of a hindrance. The only difference now is I simply say nothing in regards to why I may kick. I haven't yet but the sheer amount of DPS who want AoE has made me increasingly tempted.

Frankly, Yoshida's stance borders on a self-fulfill prophecy. Player improvement won't come without some form of a parser since people need to see what it is they may be doing wrong to even realize it's an issue.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Frankly, Yoshida's stance borders on a self-fulfill prophecy.

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You are right, so maybe the question we should be asking is how can we as a community change his stance, instead of asking for an official set of tools off the bat.

I will be honest I have no idea what we can as community can do to change his stance. I do feel he is taking this too far, and I have dealt with parse abuse drama between a few my FC members and other groups. Though I simply do not see anyway of changing his mind. Maybe it is time we as a community spent our time trying to solve his perception issue either by action or by wallet. I do not know.

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Originally Posted by Awha

You are right, so maybe the question we should be asking is how can we as a community change his stance, instead of asking for an official set of tools off the bat.

I will be honest I have no idea what we can as community can do to change his stance. I do feel he is taking this too far, and I have dealt with parse abuse drama between a few my FC members and other groups. Though I simply do not see anyway of changing his mind. Maybe it is time we as a community spent our time trying to solve his perception issue either by action or by wallet. I do not know.

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Shorten the skill gap. Judging by SE's failed attempts at it, I'd say the problem isn't the game.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Shorten the skill gap. Judging by SE's failed attempts at it, I'd say the problem isn't the game.

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I guess the counter argument would be to accept the skill gap and focus more content for the average player?

I'm sure their enough people to start a static find out your times schedules and start one please discuss this all you want until its address. At this point not even sure what people really expecting to happen or what the <random player> definition of a good player is at this point which seems all over the place with all the different types of player we have.

This is why I like rolling with people I know for harder content whenever possible bc random players brings random expectations of what good or not maybe discuss this as well. /Shrugs

Why hasn't the pro parse community started small? Like asking for it in only the highest tier of content and only in groups made on server. It is clear the stance is based on a percentage of community players. While I have only once seen a parse melt down in a bad ifrit in 2.0 where it seemed like everyone was literally standing still except the boss. You see enough of the "OMG this took 5 more mins then it should have." A small start proving that everyone can play nice and self police the bad apples.

One other thing that pro parse people don't seem to mention. Is how well do you think this game is truly balanced? Do you feel that this content is 100% balanced for 100% of the jobs? With an in game parse you would literally be able to pick apart every bad design. Right now they just pretend 3rd party info deson't exist. Which allows them a lot more wiggle room. Any live letter questions that seem to be asked from a parsed perspective gets a very weak answer to no answer in the past. Or the get good or the gear or players just don't know how to play warrior.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Why hasn't the pro parse community started small? Like asking for it in only the highest tier of content and only in groups made on server.

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Agreed, and to be fair, we have in some respects.

I made a fairly big post over 2 years ago suggesting a DPS mini game of sorts to be added into the Gold Saucer, this detailed methods by which players could be scored and ranked in a way that was entirely gear agnostic and self maintaining to boot. Adding it in as a saucer mini game was the hook to get people interested in it that otherwise would likely pay it no heed. Needless to say, I was a little disappointed when we got SSS some months later which in my eyes at least, was a complete let down by comparison.

Another example is the very substantial self only parser thread from a few weeks back that in some respects likely helped to inspire this survey.

There's plenty more examples on this board over time.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I guess the counter argument would be to accept the skill gap and focus more content for the average player?

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Define "average player". When the spread is so wide the term doesn't have a lot of meaning.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

And yet a parser is necessary to play your job at it's maximum potential.

It becomes a necessity to know the other's DPS when you're doing high level content. Imagine the following situation : you set up a static and progress on the last available raid. Thing is your group reaches enrage every time without clearing it. No mistakes are made, no death. In this case it's DPS problem : one member is probably lower than he should be. How do you know which person needs to put more work on his gameplay without a parser ?

Also, your statement about stats, thing is we have to use a parser to understand the substats effects. It is not possible without it.

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Back in my days of silkroad and cabal online the hardest content was reserved for the best groups and guilds, not randoms.

There are good and bad sides of the parser, of which one is impacting the gameplay and community and the other helps your to do as best as it is possible.
I could understand people playing this game for so many years, that all they have left to do in this game is to maximize the performance of each class, but the people who does that really need to ask themself a question, wouldnt it be better if they will play other games instead and get involved into them as much as they do in FF XIV and coming back after new patches? Because any game has just finite amount of playtime it could offer and mmorpg's are not different.
Instead of trying hard and losing nerves, try to play something else, so eventually game developer will make certain activity easier in order to make people playing it and winning it.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Sigh

How do I put this?

If we were to gather a hub of a players, set about 10. 2 of them are regularly bad apples but 8 of them are good people.

According to your statement, which you have cited as an absolute time and time again, the use of a parser would have one of those 8 good people turn bad without fail.

This is how we understand your use of "more harassment" and also why it doesn't make sense to us. Since those two bad people are already bad to begin with, you can't have any "more harassment" than those two already produce. So that only leaves the argument that only way it harassment can increase in a quantifiable way is that one of the 8 good people go bad.

Do you now see why people like me and Kaldea and many others can't grasp that? Because you've stated that this exact situation will absolutely happen. It's already crazy to think that people's good behaviour in this game's current policy will absolutely change for the worst if SE decided to give the green light to full blown parse tommorow.

TL;DR: you can't quantifiably have more harassment out of a set of people who are already parsing if it already exist. Stating that it absolutely will increase implies people's current behaviour when parsing is tied directly to the tool.

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Just install world of warcraft and see how it looks like there.
Its not a pleasant expierence, hence why there is no fresh blood coming to the game, like at all.
It doesnt help judging dps is bannable offence, it is also in WoW to harass others by their dps.
He doesnt need to proof anything, the proof is sitting right there ready for someone who played only FFXIV to find out.

This post on reddit says it all
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...arser/ddyuuck/

There is a literal elephant in the room everyone pro parsing just trying to hide behind the couch, lol.
And that doesnt help, when the dying body is lying on that couch (WoW).
The discussion is about the official in game parser, not about taking them away from the community, this will for sure affect the average player gameplay forcing him to pay more attention to the numbers than the game itself, it will lead him to judge other players performance comparing to his own.
The official one will not help, but just make this game a toxic swamp as the world of warcraft is today.

In Pugs, or random groups, they should not be allowed. People play content for different reason then you. I see no valid reason why you should have the right to point a finger a judge someones DPS. Now I think in a 100% guild group with no PUGS. Then a parser is fine. You get what you signed up for. Any group where you group with a stranger it should not be allowed.

LOL at the idea wow is dying because of parsers.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Back in my days of silkroad and cabal online the hardest content was reserved for the best groups and guilds, not randoms.

There are good and bad sides of the parser, of which one is impacting the gameplay and community and the other helps your to do as best as it is possible.
I could understand people playing this game for so many years, that all they have left to do in this game is to maximize the performance of each class, but the people who does that really need to ask themself a question, wouldnt it be better if they will play other games instead and get involved into them as much as they do in FF XIV and coming back after new patches? Because any game has just finite amount of playtime it could offer and mmorpg's are not different.
Instead of trying hard and losing nerves, try to play something else, so eventually game developer will make certain activity easier in order to make people playing it and winning it.

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So in your point of view, if someone wants to play his job perfectly, it has to be because he is a long time player who has nothing else to ? And he is a try hard losing nerves?

Does it really sound that weird that someone wants to max out his gameplay without being treated as a try hard who should go play another game ?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

This post on reddit says it all
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...arser/ddyuuck/

There is a literal elephant in the room everyone pro parsing just trying to hide behind the couch, lol.

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And, wow, there you go.

It only takes one nightmarishly toxic person to ruin things, but to do so in a huge public event is a special kind of revolting.

And it's already happened in Japan under Yoshi-P's watch.

This is why I think it's a loaded gun. This is a world class player, too.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Define "average player". When the spread is so wide the term doesn't have a lot of meaning.

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Going forward I think we will have a better idea as to what they view as average. Though from how they have handled things so far I think they want to make savage content more accessible, and will shift to ultimate being the new form of hardcore endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

So in your point of view, if someone wants to play his job perfectly, it has to be because he is a long time player who has nothing else to ? And he is a try hard losing nerves?

Does it really sound that weird that someone wants to max out his gameplay without being treated as a try hard who should go play another game ?

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To be fair not many care if you personally want to play your job perfectly. Many of us in this very thread use ACT. Issue is what a lot of people are saying is asking for an official parser is a waste of breath. As long as Yoshi-P is still in charge of FFXIV I highly doubt he will ever forget the Koike incident and he will use that one case of bad apples to defend his position of no official parser.

Thankfully we have ACT, and I get that screws over console players and players that do not want to use third party programs though clearly SE has expressed they do not care. If those players truly wish to refine their play they will do it. We have options available to the community use them, while many may not be viable to some that is not SE's problem.

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Originally Posted by Awha

snip

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I wasn't specifically refering to my case.
I was pointing out the fact that he basiacally put all people who want to actually improve and play their job to their maximum potential in the same back of try hard people who have too much playtime.

Moreover, that Koike incident has nothing to do with parsers. There were just elitist that acted like pricks in the most disgusting way. I fail to see how parsers can be taken for responsible on this incident. Chances are they would have probably done the same thing without ACT.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

I wasn't specifically refering to my case.
I was pointing out the fact that he basiacally put all people who want to actually improve and play their job to their maximum potential in the same back of try hard people who have too much playtime.

Moreover, that Koike incident has nothing to do with parsers. There were just elitist that acted like pricks in the most disgusting way. I fail to see how parsers can be taken for responsible on this incident. Chances are they would have probably done the same thing without ACT.

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As many have said including myself yes said incident would have happened even without a parse, but do you honestly think Yoshi-P sees it that way? The man before said incident has been vocal about his disdain for damage meters all this incident did was cement his feelings and provides him with an example to justify his stance. As many have already said this is the hill they choose to die on. Unless we as a community can break the stigma Yoshi-P has over meters or offer to buy meters off the mog station lol will be never get an official one.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Define "average player".

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I guess it can be a non raider, or o1s/o2s struggling. Rotation far from "good" numbers but enough to do duties without much worries.

Taking the living testaments to society's failure out of the equation, figure out how much the average DPS you need to pull to clear the enrage time and improve from there as you progress. How is this hard again?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

And that doesnt help, when the dying body is lying on that couch (WoW).

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Don't kid yourself. SE would trade subscriber counts with WoW in a heartbeat. The two aren't close. WoW is doing it's usual end of expansion cycle decline, and it'll bounce back as soon as the next one comes out, as it always does (and XIV does the same).

Parsers were in WoW in vanilla, when it did it's rise to become the biggest MMO ever. It's not getting new blood now because at this point everyone who wants to play it already has at some point. It's 13 years old, after all. It's still the biggest MMO by far.

People who think WoW is dying because of parsers are so misinformed that it's comical.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

So in your point of view, if someone wants to play his job perfectly, it has to be because he is a long time player who has nothing else to ? And he is a try hard losing nerves?

Does it really sound that weird that someone wants to max out his gameplay without being treated as a try hard who should go play another game ?

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If they start to demand from the other players to do as good as possible and not themselves, then yes they could use a break from the game because it will not get better at this point, and it will frustrate the longer they play the game, turning it into something thats the game is not supposed to be like.
Its just a stupid game afterall and you could see guys freaking out on someone who doesnt use aoe's as frequently as he "supposed" to do. Its easy to drop a lot of dps simply by not using aoe, for whatever reason someone had in RL. I found myself not being able to do a proper pulls when someone is talking to me.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The whole post was the answer to your question, not just the first sentence. I know my English is bad, but if you read past that one sentence you would know my answer. Sorry about my English but if you are not going to bother to read the whole post please do not bother to quote me. I know my English is not the best and may be hard to understand so I will paste it here again maybe it was lost in the shuffle.

SNIP other stuff

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I read your entire post and we've covered that your English is just as good as any natives.

The point I was trying to demonstrate was that guides and information would not exist without tools like parsers. What would exist is "feelings" and "ideas" with exceptionally poor methods of validity. I've seen this before in other MMO's. In fact, a recent one was B&S. Then a third party tool was developed and changed everything. Then an official one came out and then it started only in hard content before trickling downward. Console players being at a disadvantage here isn't fun. I WOULD hate to be a console player in this game and have to rely on others for data.

To your credit, yes as an incredibly seasoned veteran of MMO's I can take a new class read the tooltips and figure out on my own a decent priority/rotation. It won't be 95%+, but I can guarantee it'd be serviceable even for entry level savage. That said, that doesn't mean it's good though and I am very far from what I would consider an average player.

My position has been stated multiple times in these threads, but I will gladly reiterate for you in case you haven't seen it.

I want an unmitigated open information official parser. I want people to see their numbers and be accountable for them in all forms of content. I want people who harass people over their performance to be punished strictly.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You are putting words in Kaldea's mouth. Nowhere in her post did she claim abuse wouldn't happen far as I can tell. She only mentioned wanting to play with people of a comparable skill level. Depending on the content, I share that sentiment. When farming Shinryu, I'm not one to stick around long if I notice I'm woefully out-dpsing the party. Why? I can find another group and kill it faster. Considering I'll need at least 99 attempts unless I get lucky (I did, thank god), I prefer fast and efficient. My stance changes in say, a learning party, where I'll be infinitely more patient.

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99.9% of the time I would rather join a learning party than clear/farm. I find that learning parties have VERY clear expectations and are always open to discussion and improvement. Clear/farms almost always end up as some kind of trap where people snuck in who have no business being there thus causing tension.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Shorten the skill gap. Judging by SE's failed attempts at it, I'd say the problem isn't the game.

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To be fair, the game could do an infinitely better job really explaining and testing players on their new abilities/job roles.

I'm actually honestly surprised Yoshi hasn't knee-jerked the skill gap by flat out increasing the potency on combo actions to be ~90% of your DPS. Nerf all oGCDs to only account for roughly 10% of your total output thus putting a floor of somewhere around 60-70% (because there are legitimately players who think the 2.5s GCD is so you can "think" about your next move and only push a button every 5-6s).

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I could understand people playing this game for so many years, that all they have left to do in this game is to maximize the performance of each class, but the people who does that really need to ask themself a question, wouldnt it be better if they will play other games instead and get involved into them as much as they do in FF XIV and coming back after new patches?

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So your solution is to reduce the active number of players who play the game, thus reducing incoming funding to create more content for you? You realize how counter productive this is right?

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Instead of trying hard and losing nerves, try to play something else, so eventually game developer will make certain activity easier in order to make people playing it and winning it.

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Damn it. I fell for it again. 10/10 solid troll. No self-respecting gamer would ever say this with a straight face. EVER.

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Just install world of warcraft and see how it looks like there.
Its not a pleasant expierence, hence why there is no fresh blood coming to the game, like at all.

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Funny,

I have it installed and it's a very pleasant experience. We just recruited tons of new players, approx. 35% of them are completely brand new to WoW. Guess there's no fresh blood coming in.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

In Pugs, or random groups, they should not be allowed. People play content for different reason then you. I see no valid reason why you should have the right to point a finger a judge someones DPS. Now I think in a 100% guild group with no PUGS. Then a parser is fine. You get what you signed up for. Any group where you group with a stranger it should not be allowed.

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This is such an asinine stance to take.

We all drive on the same highway, but maybe I want to drive in reverse like an idiot. I drive for a different reason than you so nope can't hold me accountable.

Hey Aniond - so glad we're on this team project together. I can't wait to work on it with you. *Sits in corner playing candy crush on phone*. Can't hold me accountable man.

Aniond my friend. Thanks for inviting me to play in your basketball game. *Takes the ball and runs into the bleachers and hides it.* What why are you mad? I'm just playing the game my way. Definitely can't hold me accountable there.

Hey Boss, I decided to take off today despite that presentation to corporate being due to today. I don't work for the same reason you do so back off. Yep, definitely not accountable there either.

Why be so hypocritical about it?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Don't kid yourself. SE would trade subscriber counts with WoW in a heartbeat. The two aren't close. WoW is doing it's usual end of expansion cycle decline, and it'll bounce back as soon as the next one comes out, as it always does (and XIV does the same).

Parsers were in WoW in vanilla, when it did it's rise to become the biggest MMO ever. It's not getting new blood now because at this point everyone who wants to play it already has at some point. It's 13 years old, after all. It's still the biggest MMO by far.

People who think WoW is dying because of parsers are so misinformed that it's comical.

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Correct. Not to mention if you look at the playerbase from 2004 and compare it to now, it's definitely significantly better. Even the devs have admitted this. They have a hard time designing content hard enough because people have more information than ever and perform better as a result.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Sigh

How do I put this?If we were to gather a hub of a players, set about 10. 2 of them are regularly bad apples but 8 of them are good people.

According to your statement, which you have cited as an absolute time and time again, the use of a parser would have one of those 8 good people turn bad without fail.

This is how we understand your use of "more harassment" and also why it doesn't make sense to us. Since those two bad people are already bad to begin with, you can't have any "more harassment" than those two already produce. So that only leaves the argument that only way it harassment can increase in a quantifiable way is that one of the 8 good people go bad.

Do you now see why people like me and Kaldea and many others can't grasp that? Because you've stated that this exact situation will absolutely happen. It's already crazy to think that people's good behaviour in this game's current policy will absolutely change for the worst if SE decided to give the green light to full blown parse tommorow.

TL;DR: you can't quantifiably have more harassment out of a set of people who are already parsing if it already exist. Stating that it absolutely will increase implies people's current behaviour when parsing is tied directly to the tool.

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You are assuming everything is black and white, that is not the real world, it is more like 2 bad apples, 6 people that hover between depending the issues at hand, a lot of people here tend not to speak at all in runs, and 2 good ones.

Some from that middle ground that you do not see is what would be pulled to harass purely based on parsers, while you can have "more harassment" from the 2 in a scope they mouth off worse.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Maybe I am wrong, but I think you're the one who is misinformed (do you even have a tank leveled?) I don't recall many actually debating tiers of tenacity. I do remember people debating tenacity OR DH as a function of durability vs. damage, with DH winning out almost universally among the raiding community.

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I think you above anyone if you wanna bring your top 20 wow mentality over here would spot that quickly. Tenacity is on gear, if you have something like 780 of it, it is painfully obvious one should make use of 1 meld spot to push it to the next tier. Unless they changed how tenacity works, I wouldn't know, it is SE's fault for not being transparent with their stats to begin with. the 5% comes from assuming if a person can have absolutely ZERO tenacity and that is not going to happen.

The amounts that tend to be argued is 1-3% mitigation DIFFERENCE, not 5%, you can't have zero tenacity.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

My position has been stated multiple times in these threads, but I will gladly reiterate for you in case you haven't seen it.

I want an unmitigated open information official parser. I want people to see their numbers and be accountable for them in all forms of content. I want people who harass people over their performance to be punished strictly.

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In a perfect world that would be fine, but the general public does not know how to conduct themselves, thus you have these debates with a producer telling you no. The general player base does not treat things like you do. You are a minority. The problem with "I want people who harass people over their performance to be punished strictly." is not as easy as your making it sound. There are a few things to consider.

1. You cant reimburse time and kick abuse
2. How many threads/posts have you read stating on the lines of "I was about to quit and leave the game over x person acting in y fashion? How many people quit without saying a word? How much would that increase because of parsers?
3. The GM team size is small, it is likely one of the things SE has in the back of their mind, because of the high skill gap, the game's state is unable to handle the volume of calls that will happen with the release of it.

Lastly just because others where able fine tune rotations because of parsers and good for other games, does not mean it is fitting for this one, esp in the current state.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

When farming Shinryu, I'm not one to stick around long if I notice I'm woefully out-dpsing the party. Why? I can find another group and kill it faster. Considering I'll need at least 99 attempts unless I get lucky (I did, thank god), I prefer fast and efficient. My stance changes in say, a learning party, where I'll be infinitely more patient.

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That is why he does not want parsers, you are basically saying people are not good enough to play with, and having to farm that 99 times to begin with is called bad game design on top of things.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Snip . . .

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What I was trying to say is that the guides will still exist since no one is asking for the removal of such tools. Being as the unofficial tools do not seem to be going anywhere, while not directly from SE they do allow an option for those that truly want access to such information. Now as many have said sure having official set of tools would be nice, but Yoshi-P has clearly showed his disdain for such tools, and will use whatever information or data to support his position. Just personally do not see the point in beating a dead horse, since we would have to change his position on such tools, either through action or wallet.

I do not see Yoshi-P changing his mind anytime soon unless 99.9% of the population beg him for official meters, and even then unless lack of said meter action does not result in an exodus, I do not see it happening. Overall from what I can tell the community has asked for easier things to be changed, such as being able to mail between characters or turning chat function back on in the feast. Still nothing. They will live and die by their words and stance when it comes to official meters.

I do understand that you want "unmitigated open information official parser" it would be a lovely tool to have, and for many in the community yes we do agree that the the pros far outweigh the cons. I just do not think Yoshi-P feels the same way, in his eyes the cons outweigh the pros. The GM staff does take such issues seriously. I was reported in the past for jokingly poking fun at a friends numbers when we did a titan for their relic weapon, and someone in the group did not know we were friends I guess and I was reported. They were quick. Though I just get this feeling Yoshi-P expects a negative response and as such will do whatever he feels is necessary to limit that response even if it inconveniences the player base. In short it seems as if he would rather do everything to prevent the negative action, instead of reacting to them as they come.

That is why I mentioned before instead of asking for them we as a community should try and figure out a way we can change his position and remove the stigma he firmly holds regarding the tools. Which will be hard since for everyone positive someone will come forth with a negative, and when it comes to a person in power it only takes one case to support their claims and an infinite amount to refute them.

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

Some of you talk a big game about it being better to disband a party that isn't clearing than to know who the problem is and remove them if they can't keep up. I feel like that likely isn't what you practice and even if it is why is it okay to invalidate the experience and time of 7 players for the hurt feelings of someone who has gone into content way over their head?

Everyone is quick to pity the poor, underperforming part of the playerbase - how about a little sensitivity to the people who have sunk a lot of time and effort into this game? Why are their feelings and time considered less important?

I joined a Susano clear party that had to disband recently. The description clearly asked for people who knew what they were doing to essentially get someone their clear and help farm them some totems to pick up a Susano weapon they wanted for glam. I assumed this meant we would all (this RDM aside) be remotely competent at both our jobs and the fight.

The RDM, despite being new to the fight, actually wasn't even the biggest problem. They dropped lightning on us once but so did several other party members. Even with two competent healers healing our butts off we couldn't clear this incredibly easy fight, we were running dry on MP even with consistant Mana Shifts from our newbie RDM friend.

This PF asked for people to be competent and got incompetent players by and large. If there were a parser perhaps we could have seen the issues and kicked the biggest offenders, instead that RDM had to wait two more nights for their clear and my cohealer and I had our time wasted by idiots that don't read their PF descriptions.

I don't know if anyone's experience actually matters to you guys, it sorta seems like you're trolling at this point, but there are tons of situations like this all the time that would be better resolved with an ingame parser.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

Some of you talk a big game about it being better to disband a party that isn't clearing than to know who the problem is and remove them if they can't keep up. I feel like that likely isn't what you practice and even if it is why is it okay to invalidate the experience and time of 7 players for the hurt feelings of someone who has gone into content way over their head?

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Well, there was that one poll thread where many of the participants said they would not be okay with having to do expert roulette with people of a similar skill level.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

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Well Moro, calling people out without a parser is fine, even if it ends up being inaccurate.

But calling people out with a parser? Not only it's toxic but its harassment.

Actually you know what, the whole call out thing is harassment. Let people play the game however they want.

And you better had not silently disbanded that party. That's just rude.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

That is why he does not want parsers, you are basically saying people are not good enough to play with

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Wow. Is it really so wrong that someone wants to play with people of similar skill level? That's why people don't want parsers? So they can deny others the ability to play with like-minded people if it means they can be carried or coddled to? That's why I've always found the argument so self-fulfilling. It's not about other people, it's just about the person themselves. It's like "think of the children," but replace children with "players who can't/won't/don't play at a savage level." It's preachy nonsense when people are ultimately only thinking about themselves.

There is nothing wrong with saying certain people aren't good enough to play with. Even outside of gaming, it is constantly proven that participating in a group of like-minded individuals or individuals with common goals or skill-sets will benefit you in the long run. Whether it be healthy coordination or encouraging you to improve. Sometimes teaming up with people who are as skilled as you are allows you to overcome hurdles when you want to improve yourself, as having multiple viewpoints or seeing another person's experience always helps. It certainly makes things more interesting for me when I have people who are of a similar skill with me, because I'm motivated to push myself further to go beyond what the group already has.

I'm actually getting tired of this rhetoric that people should be able to play how they want, when they want, and do however much DPS they please, but when someone who actually has a modicum of skill says, "I don't want to play with people worse than me," they're suddenly painted in a negative light. It's hypocritical, pure and simple. To imply that you (I say this generally, not you specifically) don't want parsers because you (again, general) don't want others excluding you for a different mindset, thus playing as they please, is just...too much.

Using someone's desire to play with others of a similar level of skill as a reason for why parsing is bad just sounds like you're shaming them for playing as they want. I'm getting tired of people supporting that attitude in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Well, there was that one poll thread where many of the participants said they would not be okay with having to do expert roulette with people of a similar skill level.

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I don't understand... I love doing expert roulette with people of a similar skill level. I go out of my way to either do it with a full FC group or at least 2 friends just so I know it won't be awful. Maybe I'm missing something here?

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Well Moro, calling people out without a parser is fine, even if it ends up being inaccurate.

But calling people out with a parser? Not only it's toxic but its harassment.

Actually you know what, the whole call out thing is harassment. Let people play the game however they want.

And you better had not silently disbanded that party. That's just rude.

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I left that party after friending the RDM it was made for and telling them to let me know when they wanted to try again.

How toxic of me to not friend everyone there and offer to personally carry them through.

Oh wait, it's also toxic to say carry... Damn.

Maybe I just stop talking to anyone ingame for fear of offending them?

Unrelated: You both have amazing hats.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

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For me personally, its not okay if someone is obviously trolling, but i dont mind now someone doing badly, because i do not like to be called for it either. I have learned that from League of Legends when community outrage is gigantic, i also understand it doesnt matter if am i going to be mad or not, since there is nothing to be mad about at the end of the day its just a game, great part of the gamers community doesnt take it seriously so why should i? My rage will not learn anyone how to play, you will not convince them how to play properly, so why bother.
I am coming from a conclusion, if you want to have fun in the game, you need to be the part of that fun in online game. Raging and calling and kicking will only enforce this behavior further into the community, if i will kick someone for their performance, the one kicked away will do it to the someone else.

@edit
And official, available for everyone parser will just make these things worse. An ability to judge other people performance is what could push a lot of people to go bananas over the game. Just look what it is playing as a tank or a healer and being kicked out for small things, it happen to me few times already, because i was "spinning the mobs/boss" or not waiting for the buff, or the dps died because it have rushed and pulled himself.
This makes me believe for sure, there will be people who will cry around over someone dps being like 20-30% lower. I could see even a healers getting called more often if they focus on keeping a tank alive but dont do any dmg. Since checking it would be super easy, this will happen more frequently.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Some of you talk a big game about it being better to disband a party that isn't clearing than to know who the problem is and remove them if they can't keep up. I feel like that likely isn't what you practice and even if it is why is it okay to invalidate the experience and time of 7 players for the hurt feelings of someone who has gone into content way over their head?

Everyone is quick to pity the poor, underperforming part of the playerbase - how about a little sensitivity to the people who have sunk a lot of time and effort into this game? Why are their feelings and time considered less important?

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Because playing badly is for the most part not a thing someone could overcome so easly. What if that one guy has weird IRL circumstances happening around him or when he never played mmorpg before or is he doing the certain duty for the first time, he doesnt control it and doesnt have an ability to just stop playing badly on a dime.
The people raging and being rude could control themselves, and they are being little brats over a game, over a PUG which an experienced player should have know he is not going to get everyone playing good in it. You may be playing with a party finder, well thats not also the best way to get things sorted, its just a different form of PUG with random people looking for a party.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I joined a Susano clear party that had to disband recently. The description clearly asked for people who knew what they were doing to essentially get someone their clear and help farm them some totems to pick up a Susano weapon they wanted for glam. I assumed this meant we would all (this RDM aside) be remotely competent at both our jobs and the fight.

The RDM, despite being new to the fight, actually wasn't even the biggest problem. They dropped lightning on us once but so did several other party members. Even with two competent healers healing our butts off we couldn't clear this incredibly easy fight, we were running dry on MP even with consistant Mana Shifts from our newbie RDM friend.

This PF asked for people to be competent and got incompetent players by and large. If there were a parser perhaps we could have seen the issues and kicked the biggest offenders, instead that RDM had to wait two more nights for their clear and my cohealer and I had our time wasted by idiots that don't read their PF descriptions.

I don't know if anyone's experience actually matters to you guys, it sorta seems like you're trolling at this point, but there are tons of situations like this all the time that would be better resolved with an ingame parser.

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1. I understand people getting annoyed when they losed their ranking in the certain team based game (cs go, lol, dota), but i cant understand why over such stupid thing? People on low lvls when they need to beat a certain dungeon in order to proceed into the story has better excuse of being abusive than this, but i find them way more patient and kind then someone apparently rushing for glamour, that makes no sense.
I know the time is precious, but when someone value their own time over the progress they do, they could be called addicted to the game. They dont get anything real anyway, they still waste time for the game, and they should be aware of they dont really are entitled to do the progress all the time and there is a chance of them losing something, like in any other game, sometimes you just lose sometimes you win, you cant win all the time, lol.

2. The game is growing and inviting more newbies also those from the consoles who never played mmorpg before, % of "competent players" will decrease and there is nothing to be surprised about when you could see increased number of people who has problems with each class mechanics. Red mage is not easy class to play as far as i have been told.

Also i would like to know how many runs it takes on the hardest content to lose one, because i cant believe it is more than 50% and everyone having a problem doing it.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Wow. Is it really so wrong that someone wants to play with people of similar skill level? That's why people don't want parsers? So they can deny others the ability to play with like-minded people if it means they can be carried or coddled to? That's why I've always found the argument so self-fulfilling. It's notabout other people, it's just about the person themselves. It's like "think of the children," but replace children with "players who can't/won't/don't play at a savage level." It's preachy nonsense when people are ultimately only thinking about themselves.

There is nothing wrong with saying certain people aren't good enough to play with. Even outside of gaming, it is constantly proven that participating in a group of like-minded individuals or individuals with common goals or skill-sets will benefit you in the long run. Whether it be healthy coordination or encouraging you to improve. Sometimes teaming up with people who are as skilled as you are allows you to overcome hurdles when you want to improve yourself, as having multiple viewpoints or seeing another person's experience always helps. It certainly makes things more interesting for me when I have people who are of a similar skill with me, because I'm motivated to push myself further to go beyond what the group already has.

I'm actually getting tired of this rhetoric that people should be able to play how they want, when they want, and do however much DPS they please, but when someone who actually has a modicum of skill says, "I don't want to play with people worse than me," they're suddenly painted in a negative light. It's hypocritical, pure and simple. To imply that you (I say this generally, not you specifically) don't want parsers because you (again, general) don't want others excluding you for a different mindset, thus playing as they please, is just...too much.

Using someone's desire to play with others of a similar level of skill as a reason for why parsing is bad just sounds like you're shaming them for playing as they want. I'm getting tired of people supporting that attitude in the slightest.

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Throws arms in the air.
I give up
are people intentionally twisting my words or they legit do not understand what I am saying?
Someone did:

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit people in the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

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It is a prospective issue, not being exposed outside your bubble, while trying to push every other situation is the same as the bubble you are in. Has nothing to do with what is wrong or right