Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It pays the bills in a game where story line dungeons are not optional content for players who never want to see an extreme trial or savage raid.

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Why this argument comes time and time? No one say harder dungeons need to be in place of easy ones but as an additional content.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

Why this argument comes time and time? No one say harder dungeons need to be in place of easy ones but as an additional content.

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No no no, don't you know you're not allowed to ask for any form of challenging 4-man content outside of Deep Dungeons? Now be a good boy and run the same hallway simulator 8 years in the making at minimum ilvl, since you want a challenge so badly.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

No no no, don't you know you're not allowed to ask for any form of challenging 4-man content outside of Deep Dungeons? Now be a good boy and run the same hallway simulator 8 years in the making at minimum ilvl, since you want a challenge so badly.

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What, most dungeons can still be fairly easily tank-healer undermanned-duoed at minimum ilvl, only really adding length, not challenge? Well... get worse at the game!

Honestly, it's all your fault for engaging with the mechanics, for this silly "wanting to get better." Didn't you know this game is only about the story? (Until reaching Savage content and above, that is, at which point we'd better not hear of a single decision made for aesthetics or character identity.)

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Can't speak for WoW but ESO dungeons have a very real threat of dying even on the easiest of dungeons, including the first one if players aren't competent to some degree.

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WoW's set-difficulty dungeons (Normal, Heroic) function similarly to XIV's except in that trash has (increasingly ignorable) mechanics (minus the potential one-shots from being knocked off platforms, etc.) largely just because there's no ilvl cap.

They're roflstomp speedruns once roflstomp overgeared, and none too difficult even at minimum item level. They do at least have 2-5 mechanics per trash mob, though, instead of... at most a special that one can hardly tell apart from the autos and maybe a couple marked "AoE will go here" attacks, so even the mild difficulty sometimes allows for more engagement. There's actual reason to deliberately stun/silence (rather than as just a consequence of Holy spam), displace, focus target, bait, etc.

The real difference is just that WoW dungeons have damn near infinite difficulty levels, so you can play to the degree of difficulty you want even as you gear up.

The dreaded "RaiderIO" (which hasn't been a thing, at least in the sense of some external tool "judging" players, for a while now) was literally just one's total relevant achievement score across the expansion's dungeons; people tended not to invite people to dungeons more than 2 levels above your current clear for that dungeon or your average, for much the same reason one might in XIV ask if one has done any Savage before inviting someone to the first Savage raid in a given tier.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism", is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....

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I played almost solely non-meta specs and would inform the party leader of my spec when applying. I still got invited just fine. Prot Warrior at its worst, Arms, Enhance, Demonology, Survival, Feral, Subtlety, Arcane, Holy Priest, etc., etc. -- they all could get invites up to the reward cap (+15) with little issue.

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Originally Posted by Kukra

WoW mythic plus dungs is the same race down the halls BUT with a timer. The faster ye goes the better the chase of a 3 chest at the end! Heroic and Mythic dont give the same gear as Mplus so people dont care for them. Enjoy being judged by addons like Raider.IO that gatekeeps the higher key runs also.

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Raider io is no different than ilvl , plus 4 man content is easy to form , raider io NEVER goes down even if u fail a dungeon there is no -100 points , it can only go up...so with time and patience u can get your score is Rio a perfect system? far from it

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism" , is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....


FFXIV 4 man needs some love , and CHALLENGING OPTIONAL CONTENT..........is gasp OPTIONAL......i dont see any ffxiv player disliking ULTIMATES...so why the hate for 4 man challenging content?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It pays the bills in a game where story line dungeons are not optional content for players who never want to see an extreme trial or savage raid.

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Yes, it really pays the bills to not include a simple toggle by which to allow dungeons to be actual content, rather than sprint-by scenery, for more than just a third of the playerbase.

Just look at all the expense that switch would have cost, and for just the measely revitalization of nearly half the game's would-be content!

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Originally Posted by Endariel

But super casuals will complain "ItS tOo HaRd, uNsUb"

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No need to be insulting. In fact, I doubt super casual players have SE's ear more than any other group.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

No need to be insulting. In fact, I doubt super casual players have SE's ear more than any other group.

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That doesn't much matter so long as they have the dev's focus, by errant perception ("more than 2 dps spells on a healer is 'too hard'") or not.

If all other groups' otherwise beneficial opportunities are prevented to maintain some seemingly mutually-exclusive service the devs believe they are providing to some particular group -- especially when those prevented opportunities are especially design-efficient (as simply having more than a single difficulty setting would be) -- that's problem enough.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Raider io is no different than ilvl , plus 4 man content is easy to form , raider io NEVER goes down even if u fail a dungeon there is no -100 points , it can only go up...so with time and patience u can get your score is Rio a perfect system? far from it

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism" , is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....


FFXIV 4 man needs some love , and CHALLENGING OPTIONAL CONTENT..........is gasp OPTIONAL......i dont see any ffxiv player disliking ULTIMATES...so why the hate for 4 man challenging content?

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Yoshi's response here does give me some hope that something like this will come in the future. Guess we'll know post-6.0 release. I'd greatly welcome the addition of such content.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

WoW's set-difficulty dungeons (Normal, Heroic) function similarly to XIV's except in that trash has (increasingly ignorable) mechanics (minus the potential one-shots from being knocked off platforms, etc.) largely just because there's no ilvl cap.

They're roflstomp speedruns once roflstomp overgeared, and none too difficult even at minimum item level. They do at least have 2-5 mechanics per trash mob, though, instead of... at most a special that one can hardly tell apart from the autos and maybe a couple marked "AoE will go here" attacks, so even the mild difficulty sometimes allows for more engagement. There's actual reason to deliberately stun/silence (rather than as just a consequence of Holy spam), displace, focus target, bait, etc.

The real difference is just that WoW dungeons have damn near infinite difficulty levels, so you can play to the degree of difficulty you want even as you gear up.

The dreaded "RaiderIO" (which hasn't been a thing, at least in the sense of some external tool "judging" players, for a while now) was literally just one's total relevant achievement score across the expansion's dungeons; people tended not to invite people to dungeons more than 2 levels above your current clear for that dungeon or your average, for much the same reason one might in XIV ask if one has done any Savage before inviting someone to the first Savage raid in a given tier.



I played almost solely non-meta specs and would inform the party leader of my spec when applying. I still got invited just fine. Prot Warrior at its worst, Arms, Enhance, Demonology, Survival, Feral, Subtlety, Arcane, Holy Priest, etc., etc. -- they all could get invites up to the reward cap (+15) with little issue.

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Specs are honestly one of those things I miss from WoW. They're great for cases where you don't have enough of a change in abilities or playstyle to justify adding a whole new class, but want refinements on an existing class's abilities - although granted they can diverge significantly.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If all other groups' otherwise beneficial opportunities are prevented to maintain some seemingly mutually-exclusive service the devs believe they providing to some particular group -- especially when those prevented opportunities are especially design-efficient (as simply having more than a single difficulty setting would be) -- that's problem enough.

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I've never understood the opposition to the bolded, coming from some quarters. It's something I wish they'd make more use of. Anyway, well put.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

That's your opinion. I enjoy playing my Jobs and fighting the bosses. Most people enjoy the content inside the grind to keep coming back for each expansion. I'm sure plenty agree with you and play anyway, but addictive gameplay is frequently cited when people talk about this game.

In essence, it'd be nice to have more exploratory, time intensive content, but not as a replacement for quick dungeons. We're way past discussing throwing out tomestones entirely. Not gonna happen. And there's not gonna be some developer reversion to 30 minute dungeons or dungeons people constantly ragequit like in WOW, because it would kill people's ability to farm tomestones effectively and reduce player retention as people start to feel they are now playing that shitty game everyone quit in droves this year.

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I mean, some people like huffing paint humes, too. Doesn't mean they are good.

People didn't leave WoW because of it's content. They left due to the attitude of the devs and their philosophy of "we'll fix it later". Burdening the game with countless half ass systems. Again, dungeons aren't the only method to get tomes.

"it would kill people's ability to farm tomestones effectively". Ya see, it isn't even about whether or not the content itself is good. Just about how efficiently someone can farm tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Raider io is no different than ilvl , plus 4 man content is easy to form , raider io NEVER goes down even if u fail a dungeon there is no -100 points , it can only go up...so with time and patience u can get your score is Rio a perfect system? far from it

the issue in WoW M+ isnt the raider io is the "spec-ism" , is just A tank B/C healers X/Y/Z dps , if u arent those GL getting an invite ....


FFXIV 4 man needs some love , and CHALLENGING OPTIONAL CONTENT..........is gasp OPTIONAL......i dont see any ffxiv player disliking ULTIMATES...so why the hate for 4 man challenging content?

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Honestly most would give any class a shot even if veng dh was the meta for tank cause tanks were rare lol. I'd say that was on blizz though. Unlike FF, WoW tanks and healers are pretty different from each other which means if content has a ton of something one is weaker at that class is going to feel it more and more. Only fools would turn down a good tank even if off meta though and outside of doing like +20s or something crazy you can def make it work.

100% support some non face roll 4 mans though. Savage dungeons of all the current max lvl expac dungeons + some ff inspired affixes would be pretty fun I feel. Maybe change how the keystones work or drop them completely though. It shouldn't even take a ton of work right? Mythic + is a modifier on dungeons that already exist so it would be number tweaking and some balance tuning. Add it in one of the after launch patches as an extra way to earn tomestones and such.

didn't read the whole thread ; just a random idea :
open map dungeon, something like 60~ ennemies roaming freely and a boss pop every ~20 kils

Edit : unlike Eureka/Bozja i was thinking open fights for the boss too.
ex: have the first boss pop amid your pull. maybe make it call nearby enemies to join(and/or eat them). now you may have 2 boss to fights ; or things like that.

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options. The PRIMARY reason why most poeple enjoy FFXIV over WoW (in my not-so-humble opinion) is because FFXIV actually KNOWS how to tell stories properly, in a way that doesnt feel flat, watered down, or half assed. I tried WoW's equivalent of MSQ, and it didn't feel engaging AT ALL.

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Originally Posted by Calysto

didn't read the whole thread ; just a random idea :
open map dungeon, something like 60~ ennemies roaming freely and a boss pop every ~20 kils

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This has been done before, and IS being done: Eureka and Bozja.

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Originally Posted by PaluMatzu

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options.

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I guess we missed our quota of false ultimatums on the last page?

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Originally Posted by PaluMatzu

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options. The PRIMARY reason why most poeple enjoy FFXIV over WoW (in my not-so-humble opinion) is because FFXIV actually KNOWS how to tell stories properly, in a way that doesnt feel flat, watered down, or half assed. I tried WoW's equivalent of MSQ, and it didn't feel engaging AT ALL.

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And if FFXIV didn't have it's story to lean on, it would be a very hollow theme park mmo.

I've experienced dungeons in a plethora of MMORPGs now and I can safely say that whenever people claim dungeons were "harder and more interesting" in the past, they're talking pure nostalgia. This happens in literally every single MMORPG that exists for a longer period of time. I've played WoW for 17 years, and dungeons were never hard, but I do look back fondly on playing them in the original vanilla and TBC because I was bad and thus found challenge in that which wasn't challenging. In comes classic and it proved that they weren't actually hard whatsoever.

Same goes for FF14. I've done every dungeon in the game scaled down throughout playing and I can safely say I see nothing in the older dungeon design that would've ever made them complex. Unique, sure, but often in an annoying way past the first time, such as having to click excessive amounts of objects to proceed. Matoya's Relict is getting on my nerves as well. They also had branching paths (99% of the time leading into dead ends with side story pages on the ground or a treasure chest), but that's wasted effort that only a handful of players would willingly go to.

I see a lot of people wanting difficult dungeons, but no timers to avoid the "toxicity WoW has". Here's the issue: especially in FF14, with how streamlined mobility and healing/tanking is, dungeons are practically impossible to make challenging without one. The timer doesn't have to be on the dungeon itself, of course; it can just be an enrage timer on a boss akin to Savage raiding, however that would still trivialize the rest of the dungeon as the only complex aspect is that one boss. If you can kill a boss by pressing a button every 20 seconds and spending the rest of the time dodging mechanics, then making them challenging is almost impossible because you can invest your full attention on executing mechanics. The whole point of a timer is to ensure you're still playing your role correctly while doing the mechanics. The combination of the two is the challenging part, since both in absence of one another are a joke to execute in FF14.

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Originally Posted by PaluMatzu

There's a sliding scale between boring because story, or boring because gameplay. EVERYTHING boils down to these two options. The PRIMARY reason why most poeple enjoy FFXIV over WoW (in my not-so-humble opinion) is because FFXIV actually KNOWS how to tell stories properly, in a way that doesnt feel flat, watered down, or half assed. I tried WoW's equivalent of MSQ, and it didn't feel engaging AT ALL.

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Above post was too long with this included so here goes. Slightly derailing the topic here, but then again the quoted post already did anyway. WoW's story throughout expansions has been fine. The problem is that WoW has murdered the new player experience to ensure a quick path to the endgame to the point that you can't follow the story at all. FF14, on the other end of the extreme, forces the entire story of 8+ years of development down a new player's throat. This means you at least experience the entire story, however that's assuming you last that long. Many a friend of mine have quit before even finishing ARR because the gameplay of at least pre-60 classes is extremely boring and the by now incredibly long forced MSQ of "move from A to B and back to A, now kill 3 irrelevant mobs, now move to B again and CUTSCENE!" while being entirely single player is not what they signed up for.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I've never understood the opposition to the bolded, coming from some quarters. It's something I wish they'd make more use of. Anyway, well put.

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I think it's part of Yoshida's plan to keep everything all inclusive. Ultimate, savage, and extreme are all okay because they're 8 person content and you can largely rely/get help/carried to some degree on each of them.
Not only that but they're very far away in figurative distance in their placement, dungeons can't be compared to extremes at all, savage can barely be compared to extremes, and ultimates are their own ballpark.
Making difficult 4 man content would either be between dungeons and extremes, at or above extremes, or maybe even savage level.
This difficulty setting puts it extremely close once again figuratively to dungeons.
People usually aren't jealous of the person 50 states over that they hear about once a year, they're jealous of the person who lives right next to them who they have to see & hear about daily.
I think Yoshida wants to avoid this perceived slight the community could possibly suffer.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I've experienced dungeons in a plethora of MMORPGs now and I can safely say that whenever people claim dungeons were "harder and more interesting" in the past, they're talking pure nostalgia.

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Gatekeeping, generalizing, and talking for everyone while completely ignoring the fact Yoshida has made statements talking about how people have noticed dungeons are easier and more streamlined and it is intentional.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

This happens in literally every single MMORPG that exists for a longer period of time.

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Except it doesn't. Don't conflate the issue with your bias.
Dungeons can and do get more boring especially when the it's the developers intention or they don't care to explore or experiment anymore because they know the formula to make the most people happy.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

Same goes for FF14. I've done every dungeon in the game scaled down throughout playing and I can safely say I see nothing in the older dungeon design that would've ever made them complex.

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Doing old content at minimum Ilevel 3 expansions post is not the same at all as doing it when it was relevant content. So many things have changed since.
Doing ARR dungeons on Sage for instance or any of the new classes since that dungeon was released is not going to provide you any relevant information on what it was like to do them back then, it's a completely different experience outside the song and dance.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

They also had branching paths (99% of the time leading into dead ends with side story pages on the ground or a treasure chest), but that's wasted effort that only a handful of players would willingly go to.

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It's called immersion.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I see a lot of people wanting difficult dungeons, but no timers to avoid the "toxicity WoW has".

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And the truth comes out, scared of the big bad toxic boogey man.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I think it's part of Yoshida's plan to keep everything all inclusive. Ultimate, savage, and extreme are all okay because they're 8 person content and you can largely rely/get help/carried to some degree on each of them.
Not only that but they're very far away in figurative distance in their placement, dungeons can't be compared to extremes at all, savage can barely be compared to extremes, and ultimates are their own ballpark.
Making difficult 4 man content would either be between dungeons and extremes, at or above extremes, or maybe even savage level.
This difficulty setting puts it extremely close once again figuratively to dungeons.
People usually aren't jealous of the person 50 states over that they hear about once a year, they're jealous of the person who lives right next to them who they have to see & hear about daily.
I think Yoshida wants to avoid this perceived slight the community could possibly suffer.






Gatekeeping, generalizing, and talking for everyone while completely ignoring the fact Yoshida has made statements talking about how people have noticed dungeons are easier and more streamlined and it is intentional.



Except it doesn't. Don't conflate the issue with your bias.
Dungeons can and do get more boring especially when the it's the developers intention or they don't care to explore or experiment anymore because they know the formula to make the most people happy.



Doing old content at minimum Ilevel 3 expansions post is not the same at all as doing it when it was relevant content. So many things have changed since.
Doing ARR dungeons on Sage for instance or any of the new classes since that dungeon was released is not going to provide you any relevant information on what it was like to do them back then, it's a completely different experience outside the song and dance.



It's called immersion.



And the truth comes out, scared of the big bad toxic boogey man.

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It's statements like that, that make me question which community is the toxic one.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

It's statements like that, that make me question which community is the toxic one.

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The answer seems to almost always be: whichever side you oppose.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

It's statements like that, that make me question which community is the toxic one.

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You're obviously the good guy, and the one that you dont like are the toxic bad guys.
I live by this and it works great !

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Gatekeeping, generalizing, and talking for everyone while completely ignoring the fact Yoshida has made statements talking about how people have noticed dungeons are easier and more streamlined and it is intentional.

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I believe the statements were more regarding a streamlined pathing approach. Older dungeons have more of a sandbox element to them with plenty of packs out of the way that aren't required to be killed, while the newer ones follow the same on rails design.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Except it doesn't. Don't conflate the issue with your bias.
Dungeons can and do get more boring especially when the it's the developers intention or they don't care to explore or experiment anymore because they know the formula to make the most people happy.

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It has in those that I know of, at least in terms of difficulty. Even in scenarios where they got harder, they never seemed to scale as quickly as player skill did.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Doing old content at minimum Ilevel 3 expansions post is not the same at all as doing it when it was relevant content. So many things have changed since.
Doing ARR dungeons on Sage for instance or any of the new classes since that dungeon was released is not going to provide you any relevant information on what it was like to do them back then, it's a completely different experience outside the song and dance.

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You are correct, it's an educated guess based on prior experience from other MMORPGs I've played where I did end up experiencing the content before and after people started getting nostalgic about it. I gave an example of it as well, in what people arguably consider the MMORPG that challenges its players most. Now, it is of course possible that FF14 somehow is that one unique MMORPG where this was different, but I'm sure you can understand why I'm being skeptical, especially with the knowledge that those dungeons of the past were first and foremost still made to be cleared in a pug, albeit after some trial and error.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

It's called immersion.

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And I am all for that, but any dungeon built around immersion is going to be looked down upon if added to a duty roulette, making it limited accessibility. Once people find themselves in a party with someone who's new while they've done it a plethora of times, you just know conflicts of interest arrive. Main scenario roulette is proof of this: Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium would never be ran and incredibly difficult to access for those on the MSQ if not for the massive experience bonus added to the duty roulette.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

And the truth comes out, scared of the big bad toxic boogey man.

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I stated others seem to be, not I. I didn't play WoW for 17 years, most of which at a cutting edge level, to then act like I'm afraid of toxicity. If it were up to me, there'd be a challenge mode with leaderboards or mythic+ system in this game.

"Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium would never be ran and incredibly difficult to access for those on the MSQ if not for the massive experience bonus added to the duty roulette."

Imagine that. Having to bribe players to do something they don't like. It's like having to work a job you hate just so you get a paycheck.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

"Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium would never be ran and incredibly difficult to access for those on the MSQ if not for the massive experience bonus added to the duty roulette."

Imagine that. Having to bribe players to do something they don't like. It's like having to work a job you hate just so you get a paycheck.

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That said, while it's not ideal, there are plenty of alternatives. So, at the end of the day, for whatever reason, people are saying that content is good enough for the reward it provides, that people still do it even when they could've done some other contents.

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Originally Posted by linayar

That said, while it's not ideal, there are plenty of alternatives. So, at the end of the day, for whatever reason, people are saying that content is good enough for the reward it provides, that people still do it even when they could've done some other contents.

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Usually to afk, lol.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I stated others seem to be, not I. I didn't play WoW for 17 years, most of which at a cutting edge level, to then act like I'm afraid of toxicity. If it were up to me, there'd be a challenge mode with leaderboards or mythic+ system in this game.

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Your entire post is filled with fair and valid arguments so there's really not much to comment on but I do want to touch on this particular above line.
Rereading that particular section IMO it just wasn't articulated that well.
You didn't differentiate yourself from the group you were referencing in the original post and you reinforced your point with "timers" which I still don't know exactly what you're talking about.
Sorry I jumped to an assumption but with the rest of your original post it was more likely leaning to one side rather than the other.

Edit: I think the "timers" you're talking about are the ones in WoW that are used for certain content. I don't play WoW and it's definitely not something I've seen brought up particularly in this discussion but I do remember them existing.
IMO though if anyone thinks timers are what made WoW toxic they have other issues going on.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Usually to afk, lol.

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Well this roulette does exist so ppl can actually DO this content and not being stuck in queue times for hours, ppl afking in it doesn't change much about it since it's impossible to fail.
It serves its purpose, and the only reason they give so much rewards is that they decided those cutscene were mandatory and they did know that this change will instantly kills this roulette for most players hence the huge reward while you can basically watch youtube or anything on the side and play 5-10 min max out of the 45 min duration of said dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

Well this roulette does exist so ppl can actually DO this content and not being stuck in queue times for hours, ppl aking in it doesn't change much about it since it's impossible to fail.
It serves its purpose, and the only reason they give so much rewards is that they decided those cutscene were mandatory and they did know that this change will instantly kills this roulette for most players hence the huge reward while you can basically watch youtube or anything on the side and play 5-10 min max out of the 45 min duration of said dungeon.

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MSQ dungeons should never have been a single instance. All they had to do was split it up into 4 different dungeons, put Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 in the title and then just add a spawn point and an exit after different boss fights then make a quest that unlocks them in order.

Instead they just got lazy made the cs unskippable and bribed the players but they know this.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Usually to afk, lol.

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Thankfully, it's at a point where you can have people afk and not be stressed about it, plus it extends the fight, so I'm all for it as I enjoy combat in this game, at all levels.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

MSQ dungeons should never have been a single instance. All they had to do was split it up into 4 different dungeons, put Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 in the title and then just add a spawn point and an exit after different boss fights then make a quest that unlocks them in order.

Instead they just got lazy made the cs unskippable and bribed the players but they know this.

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To me looking at how those works, you dont need to have more than 1 ppl for those, just make it solo content so you can watch / skip it and you're done with it.
The only thing in this stuff that needs more than 1 person is the canon swap thing in the first one, but that's it and it could be changed easily.
I do not get why you need this to be group content but hey it's back to ARR i'm pretty sure they did not expect it to turn out this way.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

I mean, some people like huffing paint humes, too. Doesn't mean they are good.

People didn't leave WoW because of it's content. They left due to the attitude of the devs and their philosophy of "we'll fix it later". Burdening the game with countless half ass systems. Again, dungeons aren't the only method to get tomes.

"it would kill people's ability to farm tomestones effectively". Ya see, it isn't even about whether or not the content itself is good. Just about how efficiently someone can farm tomestones.

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They're not going to change the tomestone format and they're not going to do anything to change the dungeons that would slow down queues. That's all completely parallel to whether you think the content is good or bad. If you happen to think the type of content that fits in the parameters of an efficient tomestone grind that anyone can do is bad, that's perfectly OK. But it's unfortunate for you, because it's not going to change.

I happen to enjoy doing my rotation and testing my abilities with various Jobs against different bosses and I think it's rather different from huffing paint fumes, because I'm not pining for content that killed the world's largest MMO under the delusion that those unflushed gems they called dungeons were good. They were "so good" people would ragequit if even one person didn't know what to do, and a 30 or 40 minute run could be guaranteed if no one ragequit, and none of that time spent lost was particularly fun. You just followed the person who knew what to do. Wow, great fun, such exploration.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I see a lot of people wanting difficult dungeons, but no timers to avoid the "toxicity WoW has".

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Yeah, that hasn't made a whole lot of sense to me.
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Tangent:

Honestly, I'd be fine with having no timers (though it'd probably normalize at least as "problematic" of occurences in its place, as noted below), but let's be clear, timers don't cause toxicity.

Toxicity generally comes from (A) reward conflicts (mostly from dailies or Valor farms not properly listing themselves as Valor farms, to much the effect of a progression runner joining a mount farm) and (B) people signing up for things they aren't prepared for.

Background info: Missing a timer in WoW isn't all or nothing. You still get the loot, just at the smallest possible increment of item level lost, in order to avoid making overtimed banging-heads-repeatedly-against-walls runs what is optimal for gear progression. That limitation, to keep runs within roughly some 40 minutes' is there to keep far less player-friendly practices from being optimal.

The player still gets Achievement points even after the timer has zeroed; the bonus merely decreases gradually with overtime. Again, it's quite fair, and the behaviors it entices are more player-friendly than the alternatives.

If one is having issues with timers, it's because they and/or their party are attempting something far above your comfort zone and/or are having a particularly bad day. If one just takes it easy and enjoys the runs and the process, itself, of progression instead of trying to get into groups well above their level of preparation or trying to carry those who are likewise trying to cut corners... voila, there's very little toxicity.

(Personally, I enjoy carrying from time to time, especially when trying out random meme-builds or just goofing around before bed, but I'm not about to do that as a means of steady progression; if I get lucky and replace my worst slot, cool, but if not, I'm still cool with just derping out in some 10s.)

If people just take their role and responsibilities decently seriously, and themselves and their gear-per-minute a bit less so, and they'd quickly find that timers are damn near irrelevant for anything but guiding players towards runs that, on average, avoid crossing a certain threshold into tedium.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

Here's the issue: especially in FF14, with how streamlined mobility and healing/tanking is, dungeons are practically impossible to make challenging without one.

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I get where you're coming from, but the "streamlining" of tanking and healing has next to zero impact on possible dungeon designs. It's no done deal, even without timers.

Should we have them? If those dungeons end up with any unique or progressive rewards, then yeah, probably. But few people are even asking for those kinds of rewards from harder dungeons, and without those them, there's no need to constrain incentive for particularly tiresome runs.

In terms of (responding to) complexity, the only gameplay that would affect is that (A) you have fewer reason to push mitigation forward to allow for your SCH to DoT and Bane, etc., and (B) DPS are sooner free to focus target adds worth focus targeting. That's... so, so small a section of gameplay compared to any and all other possibilities. There's plenty of room for complexity in future dungeons; their average run times those who'd regularly run them would just need to have commensurate reward if placed on any roulette alongside other, more faceroll dungeons (or, the way roulettes, themselves, give their rewards would have to change).

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Your entire post is filled with fair and valid arguments so there's really not much to comment on but I do want to touch on this particular above line.
Rereading that particular section IMO it just wasn't articulated that well.
You didn't differentiate yourself from the group you were referencing in the original post and you reinforced your point with "timers" which I still don't know exactly what you're talking about.
Sorry I jumped to an assumption but with the rest of your original post it was more likely leaning to one side rather than the other.

Edit: I think the "timers" you're talking about are the ones in WoW that are used for certain content. I don't play WoW and it's definitely not something I've seen brought up particularly in this discussion but I do remember them existing.
IMO though if anyone thinks timers are what made WoW toxic they have other issues going on.

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Absolutely no problem. I ended up stumbling upon the 3000 word limit (both times now) so I had to cut it all down a bit which reading back has lead to some parts being rather vague.

I read a few posts in the thread regarding the timed dungeons WoW offers. Essentially, it gives you a short timer in which you have to succeed the dungeon in order to get the rewards. This started with a so called 'challenge mode' for dungeons, which was just the same dungeon scaled up a bit while itemlevel was scaled down, and fulfilling the requirements within a certain timer (kill all bosses and a certain amount of trash mobs) would give you some cool glamour. An example could be Aurum Vale, but higher scaling, more boss and trash abilities, the need to kill a few extra mobs at the start and a timer of 15 minutes to clear it all. Due to the nature of the challenge this lead to heavy boosting, and those that did try it themselves in pugs found that people got agitated if a mistake lead to failing the timer.

They dialed this dungeon style up to 11 in more recent expansions by adding a system called mythic+, where dungeons have infinite scaling based on the difficulty level you set them on including extra modifiers, with the same timed system being in place and there being significantly more rewards including high quality gear, making it viable endgame next to raiding. Pugging mythic+ is what many consider one of the most toxic experiences.

I'd still love either to be added to the game, since it adds to the need of doing mechanics and your role at the same time similar to Savage/Ultimate enrage timers. It also allows for them to add extra mechanics to a dungeon without altering the original version.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I ended up stumbling upon the 3000 word limit (both times now) so I had to cut it all down a bit which reading back has lead to some parts being rather vague.

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Copy it all to a notepad, replace it with something inside 3000 word limit, edit your post directly after with no character limit.

Dungeons have lacked substance since 2.0, they're just so scared to stray from the '3 bosses in a straight line path' formula for some reason when there's so much more they could do with them.

Really wish it would change, it's my biggest gripe with the game. Even when I played years ago dungeons were always my least favorite form of content to take part in because of this. They're just all so samey and bad.

For all the flack WoW gets lately, it's a good game to look at for creative dungeon design. Well placed multiple paths, things that change between runs of the same dungeon, differing boss orders, and even puzzles in some dungeons. Hopefully someday the 14 dungeon team will be half as creative.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

I happen to enjoy doing my rotation and testing my abilities with various Jobs against different bosses and I think it's rather different from huffing paint fumes, because I'm not pining for content that killed the world's largest MMO under the delusion that those unflushed gems they called dungeons were good. They were "so good" people would ragequit if even one person didn't know what to do, and a 30 or 40 minute run could be guaranteed if no one ragequit, and none of that time spent lost was particularly fun. You just followed the person who knew what to do. Wow, great fun, such exploration.

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Literally never seen anyone ragequit over another 'not knowing what to do' in my 10 years of WoW/MMOs. Your experience isn't everyone's. Sorry you apparently encountered bad eggs.

I don't mind dungeons, particularly story dungeons, having a more linear setpiece style design to them. But I do agree they are lacking in mechanical substance and difficulty.

If they ever bring optional dungeons back I'd love fewer of them, but harder in difficulty. I know I'm not the only one who's always wanted extreme dungeon content.

I'm pretty sure they peaked with Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard) because omg that was all so messed up. And when I discovered that the story continues with POD, I fangirl screamed. It would be amazing to have more dungeons like that.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

For all the flack WoW gets lately, it's a good game to look at for creative dungeon design. Well placed multiple paths, things that change between runs of the same dungeon, differing boss orders, and even puzzles in some dungeons. Hopefully someday the 14 dungeon team will be half as creative.

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This so much. I hoped ff14 would take the same path at some point in the past, but it doesn't seem like they will. There is so much potential for replayability if they just add an achievement for every dungeon if you beat it a certain more difficult way for example, similar how WoW has those achievements for almost every raid and dungeon.

When I first played matoyas relict, I kinda was surprised at the start and hoped it would be a RNG element what path you get first, which would lead to different bosses, so each time you get the dungeon you would have a different experience, similar how T2 (Binding Coil 2nd Turn) was and how it buffed the endboss differently, but it was not like that ofc, its just linear again.

The artistic value of a dungeon is usually high, the models look good, the environment is atmospheric, I just wish we had more time looking at it and wish that the meta of masspulling is changing to something more fun.
I think dungeons lack difficulty, it is just too low for most of them, especially if synced down. There are too many people who don't know how to use aoe abilities at lvl 70-80, because they don't need to learn it anyway, because the dungeon is just too easy. A bit challenge and more importance to cc and introducing meaningful dungeon specific mechanics would be a welcome change. E.G. BLM and Healer have sleep, but nobody ofc uses it because we never even need it or even worse, they make all mobs in a dungeon cc immune for some reason... It is like the dungeon devs don't even want us to use cc, it is developing against each other.

Before: Please give more creative dungeons with some difficult mechanics.

After: OMG stop giving me this dungeon it takes too long and people can't do it.