Is this your first Final Fantasy? Or do you just not remember grinding in past games?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

And right after that you get you grind a lot of mobs, dungeons, specific fates and specific leves along with grinding up 13,500 myth tomes - Guess what? People still complained about that even though it's not "random and guaranteed."

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I've yet to see anyone complain about the second part. On forums or in game. The proof about the first part is easy to see enough. Where is your proof about the second part. I am looking forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

4 days is quickly? Interesting, I found the people with Animus weapons are the ones who completed it quickly.

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You're actually making Jinko's point here.

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Originally Posted by Takeva

People keep defending this, saying it's suppose to be a grind so stop complaining. Or some people keep saying this is what we asked for, a grind that will give us something to do. A grind is collect or do x amount of whatever. Some one could finish it in 3 days while another probably a month. The difference is that both had done exactly the same achievement, showing their progression and it wasn't based on luck. It's based on the work they have done.

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But just like you like to see the exact goal approchin, there are people who like the RNG system. They probably all hate low level FATE grinding though, but not RNG.

And well, removing RNG from an RPG, is sort of removing the rules from chess. It pretty much isn't an RPG anymore.

And btw, not saying all content need to be pure RNG based, but some never hurt when it comes to RPG.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

4 days is quickly? Interesting, I found the people with Animus weapons are the ones who completed it quickly.

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4 days is very quickly for something that's supposed to last till the next patch. but 4 days means different things to different people, 4 days can be 4 hours or 90 hours.

90 hours is a lot of time for just the first part of the quest, that's an hour everyday till the next major update.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

But just like you like to see the exact goal approchin, there are people who like the RNG system. They probably all hate low level FATE grinding though, but not RNG.

And well, removing RNG from an RPG, is sort of removing the rules from chess. It pretty much isn't an RPG anymore.

And btw, not saying all content need to be pure RNG based, but some never hurt when it comes to RPG.

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There is nothing wrong with RNG, I'm not saying to completely take it away. The way they handled it in dungeons and such is fine. This fate RNG is an awful design. There are only a handful who like it and most of them didn't take long to get what they need. This is suppose to be a part of players conquest to get the ultimate relic or whatever. Yet 2.2 just came out and people are already finished or almost finished with it. Because they got lucky.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

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This. I didn't do it in 4 days straight, in terms of hours it was 4 days spread between doing other stuff in-game. That's why I feel those that already have 'part 1' of the animus have done it fairly quickly when my 4 days total for atma alone is far from quickly lol, I don't know about others but I don't have the play time to be even past my first book after 2 days (now). The setup itself is obviously designed to last till next patch - Atma aside, there will almost always be a group of people who gets through everything fairly fast, though to my knowledge it's mainly on the JP side that have Animus done currently. SE clearly thought the high myth cost would be the "road block" since people would also want to buy gear for their other classes.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

That's not being very fair, is it? Out of the 90 pages, it has not been all about complains but also a good deal of people supporting the way the quest is designed. My point isn't also about whether people like or hate grinding, but more to do with the magnitude of the grind in the second part of the quest and realising later that the first part is merely the appetiser and the second part the entrée.

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Oh it's completely fair. If a thread created to complain about the myth grinding part got up to 90 pages it no doubt wouldn't be all complaints either, none of the long ones ever are. The kicker is it would have to be -mostly- complaints for the 90 pages (90 pages right now, it'll continue to get longer), because that's what the current one is.

My point is that people do not mind the -time- it takes to do the quest, but hate FATE grinding combined with horrific RNG. There are a ton of folks that wanted a longer relic quest, that's true, however the relic quest doesn't have to do the low level FATE plus RNG combination to be long. If it has to include FATEs then there's not a reason to include RNG to still keep it long. Plenty of people have offered other alternatives such as completing a certain number of FATEs in a zone, or doing every FATE in a zone.. or even introducing new FATEs that would have been similar to the NMs of FFXI that you needed to do. If you can't see the difference between combining FATEs with RNG and having a tong term goal to work towards that you can always see progress on after you spend hours doing it, I can't really help you there. I can say there are plenty of us that can, and it makes a big difference.

That also doesn't mean there aren't people that like RNG, and there is lots of content in the game for them. In fact, every other weapon in end game right now fits the RNG grind.

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Originally Posted by Takeva

There is nothing wrong with RNG, I'm not saying to completely take it away. The way they handled it in dungeons and such is fine. This fate RNG is an awful design. There are only a handful who like it and most of them didn't take long to get what they need. This is suppose to be a part of players conquest to get the ultimate relic or whatever. Yet 2.2 just came out and people are already finished or almost finished with it. Because they got lucky.

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Ahh sorry, not meant to single out you as someone who would like to get rid of RNG completely. But more to those that said that regarding RNG in this thread. :)

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Originally Posted by Spanky

So much hate for the new elements that take more than a day to accomplish.

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It takes more than a solid day of continuous grinding of completely irrelevant, useless, and un-fun content.

Coil 1-5 doesn't take a day. It takes an hour. It takes more than a day to learn it, and much more than a day to get good at it, but to actually do it, only an hour is required.

Atma acquisition takes a day. Or days. It's pure lottery RNG. The best part is that the content isn't even halfway interesting. At least Coil has mechanics, has gameplay, has story, has lore. E.g. content.

Spamming fates -- brb let me find a bot program to do this ******** **** for me.

There's a very clear difference between farming and grinding. Farming involves content that has some sort of gameplay value, and is typically highly optional. Grinding involves content with little to no gameplay value, with no "fun", for a mandatory or quasi-mandatory result.

Good MMO design vs. bad MMO design.

You know why TERA had a mass exodus at level 50? Because of pure lottery grind. Repeat the same exact content over a 100 times for a low lottery-RNG chance of a successful result.

That's the very definition of "Asian grinder" in the MMO space, and why FF11 was only a fringe title and disrespected by most of the MMO community.

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Originally Posted by Spanky

I got my atmas in a total of 8 hours.

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And this is why RNG is such a curse to progression.

Incidentally, there's a reason I never played FFXI. (Never played any other Final Fantasy either...)

I've played every Final Fantasy game to date, and XI since launch. Anyway, these weapons are meant for a specific type of people; those who don't plan on getting Allagan weapons anytime soon, or the Leviathan weapons+mirror. Simple as that.

There are a couple paths a person can take, and the new Atma weapons are just one of those paths.

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Originally Posted by Athelias

I've played every Final Fantasy game to date, and XI since launch. Anyway, these weapons are meant for a specific type of people; those who don't plan on getting Allagan weapons anytime soon, or the Leviathan weapons+mirror. Simple as that.

There are a couple paths a person can take, and the new Atma weapons are just one of those paths.

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Except for the little fact about the upgrading again...unlike Allagan or Leviathan weapons even after the mirror. The fact this is one STEP on a who knows how long upgrade path makes it vastly more important than other weapons long term.

18 PAGES FOR TROLL WHO NEVER WROTE AGAIN ON HIS OWN THREAD. comon pepeol. he's a troll and smilling big time in his litle lonely room.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Except for the little fact about the upgrading again...unlike Allagan or Leviathan weapons even after the mirror. The fact this is one STEP on a who knows how long upgrade path makes it vastly more important than other weapons long term.

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The thing is, even though you will be able to keep upgrading it, it will never be the best weapon in the game. There will always be a better weapon that is obtained through a raid, so it isn't as important as you'd think. You can either focus on the Atma weapons for now, go after Allagan, or mix it up. There are choices here, no one is being forced into this grind.

At the moment, the Atma weapons are no where near the top of my to-do-list, especially since there are other weapons I could get. I will eventually acquire an Atma weapon, but for now, I'll just work on it every once in awhile.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

People that say RNG is a part of RPGs are forgetting modern RPGs... This isn't 10 years ago, heck, it isn't even 5 years ago. Please stop making that comparison.

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RNG is a part of RPGs and if you say it isn't you're fooling yourself. When you're fighting seymore in FFX you basically had to hope he didn't 1 shot you in his 3rd form to beat him if it was your first time playing the game. For a more recent comparison.

Skyrim: Lockpick locations are a randomly generated number in the code corresponding to a coordinate of the lock where its "open" position is. Video games in general have an absurd amount of random number generation that a lot of people seem to forget about.

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Originally Posted by Athelias

The thing is, even though you will be able to keep upgrading it, it will never be the best weapon in the game. There will always be a better weapon that is obtained through a raid, so it isn't as important as you'd think. You can either focus on the Atma weapons for now, go after Allagan, or mix it up. There are choices here, no one is being forced into this grind.

At the moment, the Atma weapons are no where near the top of my to-do-list, especially since there are other weapons I could get. I will eventually acquire an Atma weapon, but for now, I'll just work on it every once in awhile.

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Right now it is ilvl 100. Coil will be 115. They have already said it will be upgraded again in 2.25...which would either make it a 115 or maybe even 120 weapon? We dont know at this point....but saying it will NEVER be the best weapon is maybe taking it too far. It will at least be on par with the best I think.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

RNG is a part of RPGs and if you say it isn't you're fooling yourself. When you're fighting seymore in FFX you basically had to hope he didn't 1 shot you in his 3rd form to beat him if it was your first time playing the game. For a more recent comparison.

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This is bad game design.

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Skyrim: Lockpick locations are a randomly generated number in the code corresponding to a coordinate of the lock where its "open" position is. Video games in general have an absurd amount of random number generation that a lot of people seem to forget about.

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This is ok because you are frikkin picking a lock, apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

RNG is a part of RPGs and if you say it isn't you're fooling yourself. When you're fighting seymore in FFX you basically had to hope he didn't 1 shot you in his 3rd form to beat him if it was your first time playing the game. For a more recent comparison.

Skyrim: Lockpick locations are a randomly generated number in the code corresponding to a coordinate of the lock where its "open" position is. Video games in general have an absurd amount of random number generation that a lot of people seem to forget about.

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The point is, it's not like the old days of 'D&D' RNG... Where it was there for literally everything.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

The point is, it's not like the old days of 'D&D' RNG... Where it was there for literally everything.

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It's still there in gaming today. You'll almost always be "rolling a dice", especially if its an RPG and it's designed not to completely hold your hand.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Right now it is ilvl 100. Coil will be 115. They have already said it will be upgraded again in 2.25...which would either make it a 115 or maybe even 120 weapon? We dont know at this point....but saying it will NEVER be the best weapon is maybe taking it too far. It will at least be on par with the best I think.

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I think it's more likely that they will be 105 or 110, depending on when the next upgrade is after 2.25. I'm just going off of what was true in the past, they seem to keep a consistent pattern. Relics were iLvl 90 and Allagan Weapons were 95.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

It's still there in gaming today. You'll almost always be "rolling a dice", especially if its an RPG and it's designed not to completely hold your hand.

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Except there aren't as many games where you literally roll on everything, but I actually liked those days... To roll for the correct lot number, to then roll for the item you wanted in that lot number, then to roll against other players for said item... Good times.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

It's still there in gaming today. You'll almost always be "rolling a dice", especially if its an RPG and it's designed not to completely hold your hand.

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acceptable RNG is whether you get Firestarter proc or whether you get an Adlo crit. RNG for whether you can or can't complete a quest, that's bad. the playerbase doesn't even allow for RNG to control whether a hit misses or not that's why most people who know what they are doing gear with an accuracy cap in mind.

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Originally Posted by Athelias

The thing is, even though you will be able to keep upgrading it, it will never be the best weapon in the game. There will always be a better weapon that is obtained through a raid, so it isn't as important as you'd think. You can either focus on the Atma weapons for now, go after Allagan, or mix it up. There are choices here, no one is being forced into this grind.

At the moment, the Atma weapons are no where near the top of my to-do-list, especially since there are other weapons I could get. I will eventually acquire an Atma weapon, but for now, I'll just work on it every once in awhile.

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Most people are probably doing it now because of the amount of other people also doing them. Zerging the fates makes them a heck of a lot easier. Down the road there will be significantly less people doing them, and by extension, step one of this process will take much much longer.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

My point is that people do not mind the -time- it takes to do the quest,

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Again, when you say people, please clarify that its people you know and some other forum posters here. In my own experience in my fc, I have a player who got terribly lucky with this atma drops and got his atma weapon the second day of the patch. Now one week after, he is still on his first book because he realized the enormity of the grind. Another player totally gave up on the animus and decided to get the levi ex weapon. What you people don't seem to realize is that this entire quest chain is a long term grind, both the first and second part, the second part will very likely take more time than the first for most players. If you like to have measurable progress, all the power to you, but for me time is the sole concern, and since I got my last atma yesterday, taking me a total of 1 week, guess how long the second part will take? I don't even want to think about it.

And just because people are not complaining about the books does not mean they will not do so in the future. Most still don't have the atma weapon yet. Please don't make me repeat myself. Thank you for your understanding.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

And just because people are not complaining about the books does not mean they will not do so in the future. Most still don't have the atma weapon yet. Please don't make me repeat myself. Thank you for your understanding.

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The books, aside from the rare fates...are quantifiable. You have exactly the same amount of work in them as the next person, period. Sure people might complain....but those complaints will in no way shape or form be about putting in more effort than someone else and receiving less reward. Each person will end up putting about the same work into each book more or less. Yes you can complain about that, but its still fair in the end. You cant in any sane way say RNG mechanics are fair, and in most situations they arent meant to be....they are meant to be like dice rolls. They are inherently chaotic and random, and favor some while eluding others.

The grinding for random drops from fates is a totally different beast from the books.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

The books, aside from the rare fates...are quantifiable. You have exactly the same amount of work in them as the next person, period. Sure people might complain....but those complaints will in no way shape or form be about putting in more effort than someone else and receiving less reward. Each person will end up putting about the same work into each book more or less. Yes you can complain about that, but its still fair in the end. You cant in any sane way say RNG mechanics are fair, and in most situations they arent meant to be....they are meant to be like dice rolls. They are inherently chaotic and random, and favor some while eluding others.

The grinding for random drops from fates is a totally different beast from the books.

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RNG (random) number generator is meant to be unfair, I never once claimed otherwise. But if we take the rng away from the game, what else is left in the game?


Is it fair that I had to run CT 50 times for my crimson vest while someone else got it on their first?
Is it fair that twintania crit plummet and auto attack the tank in my grp causing an instant wipe, while dice roll in another group did not roll a critical hit?
Is it fair that I rolled 1 on levi mount while someone else rolled a 98?

In the above examples, a player who drew the shorter end of the stick has to put in more time and effort by redoing/retrying the content because of bad luck. Yet I don't see players making a big crapstorm out of it. You know why? Because players have been ingrained into believing that this is something that should exist in an rpg but if you think about it carefully, its no different from the situation with the atmas. Yet suddenly with the atma issue, people and their mothers are turning tables over it.

But like I said, the generation of gamers today are becoming more cognizant about the time/effort versus the rewards. they expect every single sinew of effort to yield some tangible reward, no matter how small. I wouldn't be surprised to see mmos in the near future take this route, with all semblance of rng gone (for example a boss would have a loot drop down list for players to choose from to ensure that everyone gets something for the effort they put in). The token system is already a step in that direction.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

In the above examples, a player who drew the shorter end of the stick has to put in more time and effort by redoing/retrying the content because of bad luck. Yet I don't see players making a big crapstorm out of it. You know why? Because players have been ingrained into believing that this is something that should exist in an rpg but if you think about it carefully, its no different from the situation with the atmas.

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It's actually not the same, because in two of the examples you gave, whether or not you get the drop isn't preventing you from finishing a quest. In the other one, it's different because the nature of the activity is different (unless you think low level FATEs are as challenging as Twintania) and because the odds are different (much lower chance of getting an Atma than your chances of Twintania not critting at crucial moments, from what I've seen).

Another thing I'll point out is that yes, while RNG is RNG, having to battle it not once but TWELVE times, in order to do a QUEST, is asinine. Yes, it's supposed to be a time sink, and it should be. But it's bad design to make a quest that's supposed to be a time sink completable in 8 hours from luck alone.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

The quest is optional, as are the drops. In both cases, you are trying to acquire gear to improve your character. There is nothing stopping you from progressing in the story if you don't complete the quest.

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Yet again you fall back to the old "it's optional" argument when you have no answer for what I actually said. Sure, it's optional. Every quest that exists in the game, including the story quest, is optional (if you don't mind not being able to unlock stuff). The fact that it is optional says nothing.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

It's actually not the same, because in two of the examples you gave, whether or not you get the drop isn't preventing you from finishing a quest. In the other one, it's different because the nature of the activity is different (unless you think low level FATEs are as challenging as Twintania) and because the odds are different.

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The quest is optional, as are the drops. In both cases, you are trying to acquire gear to improve your character. There is nothing stopping you from progressing in the story if you don't complete the quest. And yes, I do agree with the nature of the activity, did I not say I hate the mind numbing fates?

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

Yet again you fall back to the old "it's optional" argument when you have no answer for what I actually said. Sure, it's optional. Every quest that exists in the game, including the story quest, is optional (if you don't mind not being able to unlock stuff). The fact that it is optional says nothing.

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Are you even reading what you are posting? The "optional" issue was initially brought up you. i merely was refuting your point. Here:

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

It's actually not the same, because in two of the examples you gave, whether or not you get the drop isn't preventing you from finishing a quest.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

The quest is optional, as are the drops. In both cases, you are trying to acquire gear to improve your character. There is nothing stopping you from progressing in the story if you don't complete the quest. And yes, I do agree with the nature of the activity, did I not say I hate the mind numbing fates?

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Oh man, you aren't alone on the fate grinding. That was not one of Yoshi P and Co.'s better design decisions when coming to how to present the next weapon. The other issue is the content locks on the new coil turn 6+ and the EX fights. The main story content and the adventures of the goofy inspector are great as well as the new dungeons, but the end game stuff is at best inoffensive and at worse inconvenient and annoying.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

i merely was refuting your point.

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That doesn't refute anything. Twelve RNGs shouldn't prevent you from finishing ANY quest, optional or not.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

That doesn't refute anything. Twelve RNGs shouldn't prevent you from finishing ANY quest, optional or not.

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i wasn't referring to 12 RNGs or 100 RNGs. It was just made in reference to that quote since you seemed to imply that the quest was somehow different to farming drops from bosses because it somehow was non optional.

But back to the statement on hand. Since we have established the quest to be optional, 12 rng's should not prevent you from finishing any quest, and it doesn't because I'm willing to bet that if you spent 100000 hours on it, you will finish it. Obviously no sane person will do it, so it comes down to whether you want to do it or not, and since its optional, the whole system works perfectly fine.

If you are still not convinced, look at it this way. I can also say:

Twelve RNG's shouldn't prevent me from getting my crimson vest. I ran it over 50 times. I should get it by now, optional or not.

Haha... I don't even have all 12 atmas and I'm still laughing at all the argument. You think grinding for 12 RNGs is tough?

Trying playing Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst. Grinding/farming Olga Flow for Parasitic Gene: Flow, a 1/Xmillion (over-exaggerating) drop, having the item drop and HAVING TO PICK THE ITEM UP BEFORE ANYONE ELSE DOES. People would deliberately place themselves in the spot where said item would drop on the arena map just so they could ninja it. At least here, you're guaranteed the item will go into your inventory, if it does happen to choose you. If you're so tired of FATE grinding, go do Leviathan EX or Coil. I've already gotten SOL gear for my tank, not that I'm even doing Coil, but the point is I've gotten it while other people are moping about not getting 1 item. As was stated before, you don't NEED atma gear. It's nice, sure; but it's not necessary. Hell, I still have a lot to do in this game. I'm not worried about atma.

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Originally Posted by A_Magical_Unicorn_Rider

I've already gotten SOL gear for my tank, not that I'm even doing Coil, but the point is I've gotten it while other people are moping about not getting 1 item.

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Um, congrats on buying something with tomes, I guess? You say this as if people are doing nothing but Atma farming and not capping tomes or buying tome items, and that's definitely not the case.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Twelve RNG's shouldn't prevent me from getting my crimson vest. I ran it over 50 times. I should get it by now, optional or not.

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At this point you're just trolling. I've got nothing more to say to the likes of you. Have a nice life.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

At this point you're just trolling. I've got nothing more to say to the likes of you. Have a nice life.

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Name calling when you have no valid argument. Classy. Have a good life too.

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Originally Posted by Spanky

Do you remember farming for 1 mob for weeks with hardly ever claiming it to just have a CHANCE at a drop for an item you would probably never even use on FFXI?

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Final Fantasy XI nothing... I still remember the hours upon hours I had to put in to grind for Pink Tails in Final Fantasy IV. Those things almost never dropped, and they were the only way to get the single best armor in the game. I never did successfully get one...

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

I never actually played XI, but I assume people weren't farming for 1 mob for weeks by just typing Tab key and using 1 skill.

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Actually... There were mobs that had 24 hour or sometimes even 72 hour respawn timers from the time of their last death, and which were also lottery spawns. What this means is that you had to know exactly when they were last killed. And you have to kill the correct placeholder mob to make sure that it spawns exactly when you want it to. Otherwise the only way to get it is to spam Dia (the single fastest ranged ability in that game). So yes, you could be there for weeks on end.

And that doesn't even take into account drop rates.

And those aren't even the annoying mobs.... Shikigami Weapon comes to mind as one of the more annoying mobs. Shikigami Weapon is a level 77-80 Notorious Monster that spawns once every 21 hours (Earth Time) from the time of it's last death. It remains invisible until it is claimed by someone. It can only be claimed by someone using Magic spells in it's aggro radius. And the zone in which it is found, is occupied by several other mobs who aggro when magic is cast in their immediate area. Most of whom are levels 60 to 81.

Shikigami Weapon happens to drop one of the best pieces of gear in that game for level 75 Summoners. And it only drops that piece of gear 25.3% of the time.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you don't think that's important for them to design the game in such a way that the grind actually feels fun for people? level capping Lv 50 players is not fun.

i don't remember FFVII telling me i can't use Knights of the Round after i got it.

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Every Final Fantasy game too date (except Final Fantasy II which didn't use a standard leveling system), has had a level cap. Most of them set that level cap at either level 99, or level 100. Final Fantasy XI set the level cap at 75 originally, but has since increased it's level cap incrementally up to level 99.

I highly doubt we will forever be limited to being level 50 characters. At some point in the future Square-Enix will undoubtedly raise the level cap. When that happens, Item Levels for the new levels will be significantly higher than they are for level 50 players.