Alpha Video 4- Quests and Battle

Zumi c'mon. I'm not saying I want that kind of thing to come back. I'm just saying the way it was structured made you actually care about whats going on instead of rolling through quest hubs. Did you play FFXI? That kind of thing wasn't as prevalent as some people are trying to make it out to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

This progression you talk about I call a different kind of game. It seems like we'll have the quest-hub idea of accepting a dozen meaningless quests, going to an area, killing things / picking up items. Rinse and repeat to level up. When you have quest-hubs generally they're all the same quest with different mobs to kill and different things to pick up. I mean, if you guys hated FFXI so much I'm curious why you expected FFXIV to change into this..

I played WoW and it feels more like an arcade or something than an RPG. If you were to read any of those quests you'd bore yourself to death because it's all the same thing and nothing different ever happens. I personally liked FFXI. Forgive me for expecting another Final Fantasy. Not that I want to bring up wiki's again, but the general feel of FFXI quests was far more interesting than the quest hub idea. I'm sure other parts of the game will hold my interest but I'll miss having that feeling of actually being in a society and not just having a sandbox of helpless NPC's that need you to go fetch and kill over and over until you're 50.

Point is if the quests are like that, no one will want to read any of them including me, because they're all the same thing. I'm not abandoning ship I'm just wondering how people feel like this is evolution in an MMO.

---

FFXI was all grind, but it was fun back in the old days before they screwed the game up with TP burning & blm burns, now i see its 30-99 leach partys in abyessa (however you spell it). they threw you in the game and you just killed things with people while using .
modern games do it in a different way you grab a quest finsh it then look for more in the same place till your lead in another zone. they added a wall of text for you to read but i dont read it and i know im not the only one since people hit cap way before me. SWTOR changed the wall of text to voice acting i still skipped it, just for the same old kill this many mobs quest and being a stale wow clone its already doomed in less then a year.

fields of valor and things like it from FFXI hands down is the ultimate kill quest its simple, get page kill whatever is asking you to kill then get a XP chunk right after you meet your goal while grinding. then repeat without having to leave your camp you can even buy buffs with the "currency" it gives you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/To..._Not_to_Bee%3F

Here is an perfect example of a cryptic FFXI quest. The quest giver gives you no info at all because he can't talk. The game says something like . . . . . when you talk to him. Now unless you looked at the wiki you have to wonder aimlessly around town to figure out which npcs you need to talk to. Eventually find out you need to trade the guy 5 honey which drop from bees outside of town, which you probably wouldn't know if just starting the game. Then its up to you that you can't trade him all 5 honey at once but 1 at a time.

Stuff like this is archaic and won't fly in today's MMOs.

---

No instructions at all is annoying. Gerenal area instructing or hints (looks for the exploding trees in North Shroud) are not so much.

I don't think people want one extreme or the other, but bear in mind these are really low level ones so it's nice for newcomers that they start out simple. There's nothing really wrong with a bit of hand-holding when you first start the game, it's preferable to XI's extreme opposite of 'Here's 200 gil to get you started, now gowai and be an adventurer'.

I'm sure storyline/class/job and higher level quests will have a bit more meat to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Zumi c'mon. I'm not saying I want that kind of thing to come back. I'm just saying the way it was structured made you actually care about whats going on instead of rolling through quest hubs. Did you play FFXI? That kind of thing wasn't as prevalent as some people are trying to make it out to be.

---

Yes I did, I did almost every single quest in the game as one of the goals I had in that game. Went through wiki to clear most of them. They were pretty bad got to admit.

Link to my character
http://fanzone.playonline.com/lscom/...QEGTY3eU2M0-3D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

This progression you talk about I call a different kind of game. It seems like we'll have the quest-hub idea of accepting a dozen meaningless quests, going to an area, killing things / picking up items. Rinse and repeat to level up. When you have quest-hubs generally they're all the same quest with different mobs to kill and different things to pick up.

---

You think FFXI's quests were radically different? Every quest boils down to kill X/get Y item/talk to Z person. Once you get your formula down, you build your story around it, and how good that story is dependent on how good your writers are, not the fundamentals of your quest system. The difference between WOW-style questing and FFXI-style questing is pacing and accessibility. FFXI quests few and far between, and take a long time to finish because of low drop rates or spawn rates, or because of pre-quest requirements that also take a lot of grinding. WOW quests are typically shorter and only have level requirements, but are made to combine into quest chains.

And don't think I can't tell the difference between the "Quest Helper is for dumb people, take it out!" argument, and the "I want meaningful quests!" argument. Not sure if you can though.

Quote:

---

I mean, if you guys hated FFXI so much I'm curious why you expected FFXIV to change into this..

---

Yoshi-P literally said that FFXIV:ARR is going to be modeled after WOW and other successful, modern western MMOs. I'm not sure why you expect it to change into FFXI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/To..._Not_to_Bee%3F

Here is an perfect example of a cryptic FFXI quest. The quest giver gives you no info at all because he can't talk. The game says something like . . . . . when you talk to him. Now unless you looked at the wiki you have to wonder aimlessly around town to figure out which npcs you need to talk to. Eventually find out you need to trade the guy 5 honey which drop from bees outside of town, which you probably wouldn't know if just starting the game. Then its up to you that you can't trade him all 5 honey at once but 1 at a time.

Stuff like this is archaic and won't fly in today's MMOs.

---

The funny part is that this quest is literally "get X of item Y and turn them in at the NPC."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

The funny part is that this quest is literally "get X of item Y and turn them in at the NPC."

---

Na bro its different cause XI did it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

Na bro its different cause XI did it.

---

Just so I can really drive my point home about the hilarious/horrendous double standard, let me bring up the Star Onion Brigade quests which people loved.

1st quest: Bring Rarab Tail, dropped by Bumblebee, to NPC.
2nd quest: Bring 4 Wild Onion, dropped by Goblins, to NPC.
3rd quest: Bring 4 Saruta Cotton, harvested or dropped, to NPC.
*4th quest: Go to an area, get cutscene, come talk to NPC.
5th quest: Bring 1 Star Spinel, dropped by Sabotenders, to NPC.
6th quest: Bring Joker Card, from chest spawn, to NPC.
7th quest: Bring Shoalweed, dropped by Recluse Spider, to NPC.

Out of 7 quests, only one could be considered non-standard and formulaic, and that's arguable too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

You know what makes you and Preypacer the cancer of MMO gaming? It's not the fact that you want to be challenged while playing, it's the fact that you want everyone else to be set back and that your way of providing feedback is by belittling people who don't have the same opinions as you and who derive enjoyment out of the game in a different fashion than you.

Instead of asking for the ability to toggle quest help and other in-game helpers off -- a solution that would give you literally everything that you want -- you s**t all over the idea and ask for it to be removed as a whole, while masturbating your ego over every word you type.

---

You have done exactly same thing with the majority of your post...everyone is entitled to their point of view...good, bad or indifferent...we all want something...we all want everyone else to see things our way...you have your wants and we have ours...

Let me open with this, in case others missed it: 4-second global cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

There, you see? I say "being a Guild Leader", you say "video gaming?? Lolz."

How normal is it to play MMOs again, to society? Remember the circus show that is the VGAs.

---

Depends. I've mentioned WoW to people, and I've gotten reactions ranging from "I tried it once" to "awesome. what server do you play on?". Sure you can mention Senator Santiaga--I mean, Senator Colleen Lachowicz, who was attacked during her campaign for playing WoW...except the attack failed and instead rallied the WoW fanbase to support her. She even won the election. There is a cultural shift taking place, believe it or not.

PS: Yes, the US Senate has an orc in its fold. =P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allistar

You have done exactly same thing with the majority of your post...everyone is entitled to their point of view...good, bad or indifferent...we all want something...we all want everyone else to see things our way...you have your wants and we have ours...

---

My way: solution that works for everyone in the way they want
Preypacer's way: solution that works for him, but doesn't work for everyone else

Nah dude, my point of view is objectively better and not wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

My way: solution that works for everyone in the way they want
Preypacer's way: solution that works for him, but doesn't work for everyone else

Nah dude, my point of view is objectively better and not wrong.

---

Toggle is not an answer. Its at best a token gesture that only isolates and ostracises people who use it. There should be difficult quests without the need to reduce it to a shopping list of the apocalypse.

Difficult quests can involve more than just fighting mechanics. If you want the major part of game lore reduced to a blend of "fov" activities then this game won't have much for people to invest in. The name only goes so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Toggle is not an answer. Its at best a token gesture that only isolates people who use it.

Difficult quests can involve more than just fighting mechanics. If you want the major part of game lore reduced to a shopping list then this game won't have much for people to invest in. The name only goes so far.

---

Please, enlighten me.

In what ways can a quest be made difficult, besides fighting mechanics?

Jumping Puzzle, which people are probably too stupid to figure out especially along the earth-binded community.

No no, let him/her answer. I want to follow that argument out to its logical conclusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Please, enlighten me.

In what ways can a quest be made difficult, besides fighting mechanics?

---

remove marker, and remove internet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Please, enlighten me.

In what ways can a quest be made difficult, besides fighting mechanics?

---

1. Minigames such as Parley with various difficulty levels for the opponents.
2. Involving crafting/ mining help in the instanced area. Or use the system for a related activity.
3. "Advancing wall of doom" where you run from a hazard. Or hell, environmental traps.
4. Interesting Failure conditions./ escorts that you translate for using the auto translator.
5. Echo is the animus. Synchonize the past with the npcs to get clues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

1. Minigames such as Parley with various difficulty levels for the opponents.
2. Involving crafting/ mining help in the instanced area. Or use the system for a related activity.
3. "Advancing wall of doom" where you run from a hazard. Or hell, environmental traps.
4. Interesting Failure conditions./ escorts.

---

Out of all of these, which are trivialized by having map markers and a checklist telling you what's the next step in the quest?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

1. Minigames such as Parley with various difficulty levels for the opponents.
2. Involving crafting/ mining help in the instanced area. Or use the system for a related activity.
3. "Advancing wall of doom" where you run from a hazard. Or hell, environmental traps.
4. Interesting Failure conditions./ escorts that you translate for using the auto translator.

---

Par...ley? wait...wha..?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Out of all of these, which are trivialized by having map markers and a checklist telling you what's the next step in the quest?

---

Marker slows down the wall of doom. dur.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Out of all of these, which are trivialized by having map markers and a checklist telling you what's the next step in the quest?

---

Map marker: oh i only have to go this far to avoid failure. Or i must talk to this npc next even though i dont remember why or how they are related.

Mind you I honestly don't like the fov content. I just don't see it as a good place to make memorable content people can remember. Thumbing through lore only makes it that much less of an impact.

I never said get rid of map markers, but include both markers and less obvious tasks and objectives. Make exploration and understanding as important as the stats on your weapon. Don't reduce quest content to a blur, have meaning behind it. Have effort within it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Map marker: oh i only have to go this far to avoid failure.

---

Would disabling the map marker make this non trivial?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Would disabling the map marker make this non trivial?

---

Do not have that decision in the hands of the player, and it would. Otherwise everyone and their mother will demand it to be on,players as a whole tend to demand the path of least resistance from each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Do not have that decision in the hands of the player, and it would. Otherwise everyone and their mother will demand it to be on,players as a whole tend to demand the path of least resistance from each other.

---

and what is preventing players to ask their friends or look it up on internet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Do not have that decision in the hands of the player, and it would. Otherwise everyone and their mother will demand it to be on,players as a whole tend to demand the path of least resistance from each other.

---

So we reached the conclusion of your argument.

You don't care about your experience, you care about everyone elses' and want to have it be patently worse off for the people who disagree with your vision.

One way to make a quest memorable isn't by making a huge chunk of wall of text and make you speak to every damn NPC then look up what I'm supposed to be doing after getting a quest.

It's by having unique character, a good character development and design, cutscene is undeniably good addition but that isn't affordable for sidequests.

Does anyone even remember most of the sidequests NPC at FFXI? probably not, except the goblin NPC that gives u inventory expansion because they don't look like regular NPC, but i still doubt people remember their name. Nobody remembers the NPC that gives out bubbly bernie's quest, only the Bubbly Bernie because it has such an unique name.

Why do people remember Aldo, and Verena? Cutscene and different clothing design than the regular NPCs.
Why do people remember Shantotto, Tenzen and Hildibrand? Being in a cutscene helps alot since they are designed after just like regular NPC, but there is also trademark characteristic in them, Hildibrand's pose, Shantotto's hohoho and Tenzen's Cosmic Elucidation.



Marker has nothing to do with dumbing down quest or making it less memorable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

So we reached the conclusion of your argument.

You don't care about your experience, you care about everyone elses' and want to have it be patently worse off for the people who disagree with your vision.

---

This is a MMORPG, there's a social aspect to the game. My experience involves the experiences of others as much as theirs with me. I'm caring about the experiences of other people because as a group, they will demand it to be as easy as possible.

"I want the game to be challenging" does not mean "I want the game to be worse."

What is your defense against people who are going to get their quest guide from third party fansites and youtube videos, and are going to build the easiest party setup and follow the easiest/cheesiest strategy? Keep in mind that these people are going to be in the overwhelming majority, 80% and above.

Sorry i didnt read all the comments so maybe someone already said this. But looking at this theres really only one thing that really bugs me. Why does the person that is playing have 2 HP bars? And when he enganges in battles he gets another HP bar making a total of 3 HP bars when u should only need 1?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

One way to make a quest memorable isn't by making a huge chunk of wall of text and make you speak to every damn NPC then look up what I'm supposed to be doing after getting a quest.

It's by having unique character, a good character development and design, cutscene is undeniably good addition but that isn't affordable for sidequests.

---

I agree with this. (drawing from WoW) There's a reason people remember Mylune, Hemmet Nesingwary, Lump, Elling Trias, and John J. Keeshan. They don't have epic cutscenes, some don't even have VA's assigned. But they have character and questlines that, while irrelevant to the main story, are memorable in some way. Some of them are also recurring characters you see as you level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norack

Sorry i didnt read all the comments so maybe someone already said this. But looking at this theres really only one thing that really bugs me. Why does the person that is playing have 2 HP bars? And when he enganges in battles he gets another HP bar making a total of 3 HP bars when u should only need 1?

---

the left top is party interface..now yourself is included in party list

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aion

the left top is party interface..now yourself is included in party list

---

I guess i could understand that, but why do you get a 3rd HP bar, when u engange a monster in battle? Just seems to take up alot of screen space. Although i guess the insanely low resolution this was shot at doesnt help matters XD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

I agree with this. (drawing from WoW) There's a reason people remember Mylune, Hemmet Nesingwary, Lump, Elling Trias, and John J. Keeshan. They don't have epic cutscenes, some don't even have VA's assigned. But they have character and questlines that, while irrelevant to the main story, are memorable in some way. Some of them are also recurring characters you see as you level.

---

All the job leveling quests in 1.0 had that. All the class quests and even those for doh/dow had memorable storyline quests with recurring characters. Like the Weaver Cinderella story and the Goldsmith love triangle storyline, both of which i quite enjoyed. 1.0 sure had a lot of good content that most pple just didn't touch. It irks me when i see pple complaining about stuff they feel the game is lacking when it infact has been there all along and they just didn't wanna try it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norack

I guess i could understand that, but why do you get a 3rd HP bar, when u engange a monster in battle? Just seems to take up alot of screen space. Although i guess the insanely low resolution this was shot at doesnt help matters XD.

---

It's the target-of-target unit frame.

ITT: Massive levels of over-reaction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

What is your defense against people who are going to get their quest guide from third party fansites and youtube videos, and are going to build the easiest party setup and follow the easiest/cheesiest strategy? Keep in mind that these people are going to be in the overwhelming majority, 80% and above.

---

I you want to reduce the game to a theme park of amorphous shopping list in a race to the relic/bahamut gear/ what have you, the FF feel will be just as hollow, and the ring of "WoW clone" will be all over the place.

I'm asking for a mix to provide challenge and interest for the crowd. Have something meaningful, it doesn't have to be computer babysitting anymore than it has to be Shin megami tensei I difficult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

I you want to reduce the game to a theme park of amorphous shopping list in a race to the relic/bahamut gear/ what have you, the FF feel will be just as hollow, and the ring of "WoW clone" will be all over the place.

I'm asking for a mix to provide challenge and interest for the crowd. Have something meaningful, it doesn't have to be computer babysitting anymore than it has to be Shin megami tensei I difficult.

---

Let me ask again. How do you prevent people from getting guides from third party sites and building a "shopping list" of things they need to do, and the easiest way for them to do it, in order to get to their end-goal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aion

Par...ley? wait...wha..?

---

dude!> you never tried parley?. it was the shit!!...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Let me ask again. How do you prevent people from getting guides from third party sites and building a "shopping list" of things they need to do, and the easiest way for them to do it, in order to get to their end-goal?

---

People buy Gil with third party sites, and attempt to make bots and trainers for the game, does that mean we should demand that SE open a shop to trade real money for fake? Should SE hire players to do autoleveling at your convenience and money's behest?

No company is going to prevent the eventual FAQ that will come out of their game, that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to make a challenging game. Was Dark Souls such a failure, or Dragon's Dogma? Would they have stood out so from their crowds if they were easygoing romps with "attack will land here" markers abound?