Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What you call mental gymnastics I call “trying to fit within tank mains ridiculously specific criteria for what actually justifies tanks being overpowered” especially when you can’t even be consistent. You on the rebalance WAR thread argued bloodwhetting is fine because you say it only warps dungeon content, then when something like this is done it’s also fine because it’s not PF standard. Either tanks healing warps all content in which your justification for BW being okay to be OP in dungeons falls apart or tanks are only OP in dungeons which means this clear shouldn’t have been possible. It’s hilarious to me how many different requirements you have to meet before you will even consider the idea your role is overpowered and warping the game design

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As I've said, those are two different boogeymen.
Wake me up when Healers are kicked from parties and a significant chunk of the community wants to run 4 tanks in any content where the party role can be freely manipulated, that's the only criteria I ask for before I'll be for nerfs.
We've had real situation where WAR, PLD, MCH were barred from PF, this isn't one of them.

95+% of the parties play with 2 healers, even in unsynch'd EX Farm where everyone's HP massively increased.
That's a fact you can easily check yourself.

Just think 2 seconds, healers and physical range are scarce, if tanks were strictly better and so broken they replace healers, then why isn't PF just replacing the healing slot with healers? The answer is simple, people value more a balanced composition than 4 tanks.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I mean, if you want to go tell people the 8953 posts in the HealerStrike thread all amount to ‘nothing’ then thats on you, but idk man I think they might disagree lol. I’d say the fact that many people even bothered to post about it suggests there absolutely is an issue, and it has as much to do with tanks as it does healers themselves

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Actions speak louder than words. If we are short 8953 healers, either other players took their place... or they are still playing healers.

And lets not even talk about the 9457 "EW sucks" posts... so either those players are still playing the game (and then it doesn't matter if EW sucked), or they moved on. I bet if someone did a search on the players that posted that "EW sucks", they'd find posts from the DT era as well. In other words... they are still playing the game too. So, it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

considering how long you have to sit in PF waiting for a healer to join and how quickly a tank joins, I don't believe there is 94 healers per 100 tanks.

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My queues on tank are fairly quick. I mean, these healers are coming from somewhere. There are plenty of times when the queue insta-pops on tank. And there are times I'm leveling healer where I have to wait. Albeit, not long, but there is a wait.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

In other words... they are still playing the game too. So, it doesn't matter.

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So nothing matters until things get so bad that the game is physically non functional?

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Originally Posted by dspguy

My queues on tank are fairly quick. I mean, these healers are coming from somewhere. There are plenty of times when the queue insta-pops on tank. And there are times I'm leveling healer where I have to wait. Albeit, not long, but there is a wait.

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Im not talking about roulettes im talking about PF.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

As I've said, those are two different boogeymen.
Wake me up when Healers are kicked from parties and a significant chunk of the community wants to run 4 tanks in any content where the party role can be freely manipulated, that's the only criteria I ask for before I'll be for nerfs.
We've had real situation where WAR, PLD, MCH were barred from PF, this isn't one of them.

95+% of the parties play with 2 healers, even in unsynch'd EX Farm where everyone's HP massively increased.
That's a fact you can easily check yourself.

Just think 2 seconds, healers and physical range are scarce, if tanks were strictly better and so broken they replace healers, then why isn't PF just replacing the healing slot with healers? The answer is simple, people value more a balanced composition than 4 tanks.

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You truly don’t see a problem with the mantra of “this is literally only a problem when PF shuts out healers”?

Stop and think for a second, square moves at a literal glacial pace, let’s say this situation actually came to pass, square has shown they can’t turn on a dime to fix this, that entire tier at the absolute least will just block out healers and there is a good chance the tier after that will as well since they will already be deep in the design phase, it’s also likely that PF will start considering strats for any future tiers that could also do it if square doesn’t actually attack the root of the problem which we know they almost never do. Letting something get to the complete non functional stage before trying to fix it when square moves as slow as they do would be a complete unmitigated disaster because they simply couldn’t fix it in any reasonable time. How would you feel if the situation was reversed. Healers going “I’m willing to sacrifice the entire tank role for 1/2 entire savage tiers before I’m ready to call for nerfs to my own role”

Like I said the only reason they haven’t done this anymore is not because “people value a balanced composition”, it’s because braindead strat videos haven’t told them how to do it how to do it without healers yet. Unsynced farm parties just want bodies, comp literally doesn’t matter at all

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

So nothing matters until things get so bad that the game is physically non functional?

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Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You truly don’t see a problem with the mantra of “this is literally only a problem when PF shuts out healers”?

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No, I don't. Because it means your concerns aren't critical. You car can have something broken it doesn't mean you have to drop everything and fix it and won't ever snowball into a bigger problem.
I'm merely pointing out the boogeyman, how the healers on tank forum just blame tanks for their role not being fun, how the trinity is broken, how they'll get replaced...
You make it look more critical that it really is, which is just manipulation at this point.

We've had actual critical situations like ARR WAR, HW PLD, early SB MCH that were actually barred from PF and had emergency changes.

From the start I'm criticizing the exaggeration and nerf mentality, I've never said we shouldn't fix the Healer role.
It's the exact same thing with DRK, it's "fine", the job isn't broken but I expect changes.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.



No, I don't. Because it means your concerns aren't critical. You car can have something broken it doesn't mean you have to drop everything and fix it and won't ever snowball into a bigger problem.
I'm merely pointing out the boogeyman, how the healers on tank forum just blame tanks for their role not being fun, how the trinity is broken, how they'll get replaced...
You make it look more critical that it really is, which is just manipulation at this point.

We've had actual critical situations like ARR WAR, HW PLD, early SB MCH that were actually barred from PF and had emergency changes.

From the start I'm criticizing the exagerration and nerf mentality, I've never said we shouldn't fix the Healer role.
It's the exact same thing with DRK, it's "fine", the job isn't broken but I expect changes.

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I like in every time you mention “actual critical situations where jobs were getting locked out” you explicitly choose to not mention the times healers were getting locked out as if you are trying to paint a picture that healers never get locked out when they regularly are due to balance decisions. But please go on with the whole “tanks are the actual victims here”

And circling back to your point on “I’m happy to change healers I just don’t believe in nerfs” hand you ever stopped to consider that the changes you deign to hand out to the healer role are not what healers actually want. I’ve read your posts. The little information you actually give beyond just constantly saying “x thing isn’t THAT broken” is basically the age old “don’t nerf tanks just give healers something else to do while I heal myself”

I. DONT. WANT. THAT, I’m the healer my primary job is to heal the person taking the most amount of damage- the tank. I want a more complex DPS rotation but I don’t want that to be the totality of what I do in situations where only the tank is being hit. If that was the case I’d queue as a well designed job; like pictomancer. I’m astounded at your inability to see this from the opposite perspective. Do you genuinely think “oh yeah it’s broken but it’s not broken enough that it should come at the expensive of my fun playing the broken class is something that’s a valid response to healers who are unhappy with the state of their role and have been offerings mountains of feedback for over half a decade”

As much as you don’t want any to believe it despite all the other problems healers have tanks immense healing and immortality DOES reduce my fun as a healer. In my eyes the trinity is broken in your favour and you are just downplaying it because you are the beneficiary party. You know what I did when SGE was getting locked out of DSR parties because SCH’s shields were so much more powerful- I called for SCH nerfs. My own main I called to be nerfed because I understand balance in this game sometimes means giving up my beneficiary position for another

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I. DONT. WANT. THAT, I’m the healer my primary job is to heal the person taking the most amount of damage- the tank. I want a more complex DPS rotation but I don’t want that to be the totality of what I do in situations where only the tank is being hit.

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No, your primary job is to heal the party.
But I do agree you should have more to heal in dungeons, I've made suggestions and brought dungeon data about that remember?
I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain. That if we don't the trinity is in critical danger.
But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well? How many more are we going to nerf until you're satisfied?
I haven't said "give healer something else to do while I heal myself", thought it's true I believe healer role should be more than managing HP.
I've said: "Give healer more healing to do for the party", you're free to re-read my posts about the way too low damage taken in dungeons.

We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

No, your primary job is to heal the party.
But I do agree you should have more to heal in dungeons, I've made suggestions and brought dungeon data about that remember?
I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain. That if we don't the trinity is in critical danger.
But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well?
I haven't said "give healer something else to do while I heal myself", thought it's true I believe healer role should be more than managing HP.
I've said: "Give healer more healing to do for the party", you're free to re-read my posts about the way too low damage taken in dungeons.

We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

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Last I checked the tank was part of the party. Why is the tank exempt from this. “The healers job is to heal the party not the tank” just reads as the tank wanting to be exempt from the party responsibility of relying on others but still having the rest of the party rely on them.

I don’t put all the blame on tank sustain, I put a hefty majority of the blame on tank sustain because it’s a hefty majority of the problem. You act like I’ve never viewed DPS sustain as a problem as well. I was the first one out there laughing at how overpowered SAM’s new defensive is or why the hell the DPS needed second wind upgrades or why SMN needed lux Solaris. I love how you go “the trinity isn’t broken see DPS can also replace the healer”. That isn’t an argument, that’s an admittance the trinity is beyond broken.

And again if all healing is random AOE healing the tank doesn’t care about then where is the single target healing being used.

Your entire point seems to boil down to “let ME do what I want while the DPS and healer rely on each other”. Tell me in this dynamic you are describing where are you relying on other party members, what are they doing that you can’t do because to me that reads far more as ego than healers not wanting the tanks to do their job for them

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Originally Posted by dspguy

I see a lot of players still playing other tank classes. According to some FFXIV demographics sites, tank usage is fairly even - if anything, DRK is used more than WAR.

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There are 2x less DRKs doing savage than WARs or PLDs.

PLD popularity being on par with WAR for this is not surprising - like WAR but unlike GNB and DRK it has mitigation versus physical raidwides, has competitive damage, good tools to deal with melee downtime and is fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t put all the blame on tank sustain, I put a hefty majority of the blame on tank sustain because it’s a hefty majority of the problem. You act like I’ve never viewed DPS sustain as a problem as well. I was the first one out there laughing at how overpowered SAM’s new defensive is or why the hell the DPS needed second wind upgrades or why SMN needed lux Solaris. I love how you go “the trinity isn’t broken see DPS can also replace the healer”. That isn’t an argument, that’s an admittance the trinity is beyond broken.

And again if all healing is random AOE healing the tank doesn’t care about then where is the single target healing being used.

Your entire point seems to boil down to “let ME do what I want while the DPS and healer rely on each other”.

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The cool thing is that I can use the argument both ways thanks to the data I provided.
What if we removed all healing from DPS and tanks, only healers can heal? Well, healers still wouldn't make use of their full kit.
And then what will happen when people get gear, more defense and just destroy the trash before they have a chance to put the tank in danger? Do we nerf their damages now?

The trinity is simply not applied.
It's not in danger or anything, the dungeons are undertuned in a way that even if someone dies the party can easily recover without losing time or wiping.

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The cool thing is that I can use the argument both ways thanks to the data I provided.
What if we removed all healing from DPS and tanks, only healers can heal? Well, healers still wouldn't make use of their full kit.
And then what will happen when people get gear, more defense and just destroy the trash before they have a chance to put the tank in danger? Do we nerf their damages now?

The trinity is simply not applied.
It's not in danger or anything, the dungeons are undertuned in a way that even if someone dies the party can easily recover without losing time or wiping.

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

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Who said I was talking about dungeons. These problems go all the way up into savage. I looked at a log of mine from my raid main for M3 just then and 57% of the healing the WAR received came from themselves, I as the SGE contributed 20%, the AST contributed 18% and the rest was the DPS. Of that 20% I contributed 19.1% came from AOE heals that just happened to hit the WAR

The healer kits are too strong but you are literally doing more healing than I am on yourself, that is completely ridiculous in a savage fight, dungeons are broken 8 ways from Sunday but let’s not pretend like this is just a dungeon issue. This savage problem can be applied to literally any single target content which is functionally anything besides dungeons.

In dungeons your argument basically boils down to “just because tank sustain isn’t healers only problem that means it absolutely doesn’t need to be fixed” which is a stupid argument. No one thing will ever constitute 100% of a problem, doesn’t mean you don’t tackle big easy to fix problems first

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

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Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

If you nerf tank sustain then there are downsides, for the tank . For the healer though that literally just means not having 90% of your toolkit be functionally redundant .

I still feel like everyone’s looking at things purely from a savage/ultimate perspective. Having powerful tank sustain and dps support healing is great when the enemies output actual damage . The sad fact is they simply don’t though. We’re honestly at a point where I can literally ignore the tank for entire dungeons outside of like a couple Protractions and have the fairy do the rest.

Nerfing tank sustain in a vacuum wouldn’t do anything, I’ll grant that. But adjusting tank sustain, healing output, and damage output in content to actually be even remotely proportionate to the insanely powerful toolkits we have? Things like Bloodwhetting would be good abilities if they were ever actually proportionate to the damage output. But the fact is they’re all way beyond the paltry damage amounts most content outputs. Literally the only downside to that is ‘tanks and healers might have to exert an infinitesimal effort’ which I mean, maybe it’s about time…

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.

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What strawman? In that discussion it was stated multiple times that unless people stop playing, nothing matters. So it very much looks like dpsguy's view is that dissatisfaction and feedback doesn't matter until players quit.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

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And for the entire discussion it was agreed that BW isn't the problem with healing. It's just a big problem with healing. Tank sustain to that level shouldn't exist, it makes no sense and it's no fun to play with as a healer. We could fix the other problems with healing, but BW would remain a problem just as it is now, so either way BW has to be fixed. It is without a doubt the most problematic ability in dungeons.

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That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain.

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When? In the very post you quoted Supersnow mentioned healer DPS rotations, one of the other problems that everyone is aware of and wants fixed, along with problems like BW.

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But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

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I guess BW is just tank (WAR?) ego then and not important. So let's not put tank ego ahead of making the game better.

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Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well? How many more are we going to nerf until you're satisfied?

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Tanks mainly since they're the problem and not DPS. Tanks are the ones taking damage most of the time, and they are unique in that they tend to take sustained damage that is different from occasional party damage.

Though if DPS or support tools end up being as detrimental as BW they should be adjusted to a reasonable state.

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We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

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WAR healing would still be overpowered and out of place. It would be the same. WAR's would stick out compared to other tanks and require significantly less healing because they are basically self sufficient. And throwing out AoE's constantly isn't much of a solution when single target healing skills are a large part of healer ability sets. We're just supposed to cast Medica II all the time now and Cure, Benefic, ED, Excog, etc are just whatever? I think the game works well when there is some variety between tank healing and partywide healing and I don't see why we have to give that up to satisfy tank ego.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Who said I was talking about dungeons. These problems go all the way up into savage. I looked at a log of mine from my raid main for M3 just then and 57% of the healing the WAR received came from themselves, I as the SGE contributed 20%, the AST contributed 18% and the rest was the DPS. Of that 20% I contributed 19.1% came from AOE heals that just happened to hit the WAR.

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Well yes, you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

Tanks takes the same damage as DPS, the main difference comes from tank busters and very spread out auto attacks. You can observe the discrepancy by looking at the offtank who takes less damage than everyone else even despite sharing the tank buster.

But go ahead, show me PF of players doing M3S with 4 tanks instead of 2 tanks/2heals. I'll even accept a minority, shows me the symptoms of the trinity crumbling instead of boogeymen.
I'll only answer to a worthwile proof, I'm tired of facing data manipulation, strawmen and boogeymen.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

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It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

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Well at least in that case jobs would not feel the same since they'd fill different roles. On the individual job level this wouldn't create homogeny either, a very simple example would be a healer that can only shield versus a healer that can only regen. With tanks you could have a tank that mitigates versus a tank that turns large hits into DoTs that change how healing can be applied.

That's another topic though since no one is trying to strictly limit classes anyway. What people want is balance and this has been clarified more than once, so I'm not sure why you're trying to bring up points that no one is making.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Well yes, you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

Tanks takes the same damage as DPS, the main difference comes from tank busters and very spread out auto attacks. You can observe the discrepancy by looking at the offtank who takes less damage than everyone else even despite sharing the tank buster.

But go ahead, show me PF of players doing M3S with 4 tanks instead of 2 tanks/2heals. I'll even accept a minority, shows me the symptoms of the trinity crumbling instead of boogeymen.
I'll only answer to a worthwile proof, I'm tired of facing data manipulation, strawmen and boogeymen.



It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

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I am healing the party but I should be actually healing you as the tank not you healing yourself, your entire view is built on the fact that tanks should just be alone in the party doing whatever they want and that the rest of the party should be reliant on each other

YOU. SHOULD. DIE. IF. I. DONT. HEAL. YOU. JUST. LIKE. I. DIE. IF. YOU. DONT. TANK. FOR. ME

if you don’t agree with the above statement you aren’t even arguing anything relating to the trinity, you are arguing a weird reciprocal dichotomy between the healers and DPS while the tanks stands alone as being relied upon but never needing to rely on others. If that’s your view of tanks just admit it rather than dancing around it, because you still have yet to tell me even though I’ve alluded to it 4 times what tanks should actually rely on the other roles for. In a healthy trinity all 3 roles rely on each other, right now the tank relies on the healer for nothing

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

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It feels like you’ve read that one line and ignored the entire rest of the post. Like the part where I specifically say

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Originally Posted by Connor

Having powerful tank sustain and dps support healing is great when the enemies output actual damage .

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Asking for encounters to be even remotely proportionate to the strength of tank/healer abilities is ‘closing the door to jobs stepping out their line’? Or maybe it would actually give a modicum of justification for the many, many healing support abilities dps have. Current design literally just closes the door on all of that . Nobody in the world is ever going to say ‘wow I’m so glad the Summoner used Lux Solaris at that timing’ with encounter designs the way they are. It’s the same with so many tank abilities. What’s the point of Clemency when 99% of the time nobody is ever going to take enough damage to ever warrant it in the first place? So people can do no-healer meme clears?

Lastly I’m not sure what you’re referring to about ‘numbers game’….which numbers? What game? Dps? Healing output? Do you mean ‘healers have to dps so they can’t be made to heal’ or are you going to pull out the ‘that’s too hard for the casuals!’. I mean, isnt that why we (royal we) ask for things to change lol?

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Originally Posted by Connor

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

If you nerf tank sustain then there are downsides, for the tank.

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That already seems true basically only at min ilvl. By max, our sustain frequently renders parts of itself redundant unless purposely avoiding whatever AoE healing is required. When not tanking Expert Roulettes myself, I've often asked the DRKs who had the other tanks leveled why they run on DRK. The most typical answers: "Because it looks coolest," and "Because a larger part of my defensives actually matter."

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Originally Posted by Connor

Asking for encounters to be even remotely proportionate to the strength of tank/healer abilities is ‘closing the door to jobs stepping out their line’? Or maybe it would actually give a modicum of justification for the many, many healing support abilities dps have.

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Food for thought:
Tbf, this is complicated by the fact that even though healers have very similar free sustain outputs, that still leaves distinct tuning targets for using the full amount of jobs' free sustain even when fully geared across Healers/Warriors/Paladins/TheOtherTanks, and healers themselves vary in maximum available output if not limiting oneself to free sustain alone.

Tune a dungeon for Warrior and maximum AST ST sustain and you actually will have closed off the ability for anyone else to clear, for instance. That's the literal most extreme tuning possible that a tank-healer pair could theoretically pass without dps support, but it'd also be quite a step until the next tank's available output in dungeons.

It'd be kind of like if there were only one DPS in dungeons, as per tank and healer, and you had to simultaneously balance damage requirements for Bard and Samurai. But with a yet larger gap, and with only two real contributors (to sustain) instead of 3 (as to damage).

Whenever people talk about bloodwhetting aoe I always think; Kardia doesn't heal per attack in aoe.
Reason is obvious, cus it would make SGE op in aoe scenarios, doesn't apply to WAR I guess. Hell PLD self healing is super OP too but even that doesn't do extra healing in AOE.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Food for thought:

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That’s fair; I mean, I’m not even suggesting like a 1:1 proportion since as you say it varies by healer/tank/gear/too much to balance properly without accidentally locking out certain jobs for one reason or another.

Still though, I feel like at the very least they could try and have it be at least somewhat reflective of the toolkits if not fully proportionate. Like, you’d expect damage output to be extremely high and fast given the amount of oGCDs there are, or for tanks to be taking huge chunks of damage at any given time considering how strong the 40% defensive buffs are on top of everything else they have (Bloodwhetting/Clemency/Veil etc). Likewise you spend like 80% (idk what the actual value is but that feels right lol) of your time in combat dealing damage, but only have 2 non-healing gcds to actually use. So while the tank is sucking up HP from enemies like it’s oxygen the healer is sat there with like 90% of their toolkit they’ll never actually need to use lol.

Anyway I’m veering off-topic but basically I think the issues around Bloodwhetting etc is more a symptom of the issues with the job/battle design and how they’re interacting than the ability itself. And I mean, I won’t claim I know ‘what they should do’. I’m not a game developer or anything like that, so the best I can do is ‘vague ideas’. But then, with how little they’ve communicated with us about these problems, vague ideas are kinda all we have lol.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Like, you’d expect damage output to be extremely high and fast given the amount of oGCDs there are, or for tanks to be taking huge chunks of damage at any given time considering how strong the 40% defensive buffs are on top of everything else they have (Bloodwhetting/Clemency/Veil etc).

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Aye. 40% is going to be noticeable, of course, but outside of very precise tankbusters paced specifically to accommodate it, it rarely feels anywhere near necessary. A bit more going into the grinder could make tank actions feel far more potent.

Final funny tidbit:

Even when popping a 40%, the majority of a tank's mitigation is passive. At i730, a tank has 48% passive mitigation (20% from Tank Mastery, 35% from Defense).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Final funny tidbit:

Even when popping a 40%, the majority of a tank's mitigation is passive. At i730, a tank has 48% passive mitigation (20% from Tank Mastery, 35% from Defense).

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This whole concept is insane to me, worse is the fact that I can still watch tanks melt in dungeons if they don't bother to use their kits.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

In that discussion it was stated multiple times that unless people stop playing, nothing matters. So it very much looks like dpsguy's view is that dissatisfaction and feedback doesn't matter until players quit.
.

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Someone gets it.

And it is dspguy, not dpsguy. I'm not that arrogant to claim a handle like that :)

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Someone gets it.

And it is dspguy, not dpsguy. I'm not that arrogant to claim a handle like that :)

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I don't think most would guess you to be a direct support professional or assume you're going for descessit sine prole either, tbf. A frat (ΔΣΠ) alum, maybe. And most other common expansions of the acronym refer to things, not people, as far as I recall. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

This whole concept is insane to me, worse is the fact that I can still watch tanks melt in dungeons if they don't bother to use their kits.

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Well, the damage is tuned --to the extent any hypercasual content is "tuned" at all-- around that passive tank mitigation. Which ultimately means that it's just a composition check by which to nerf to all non-tanks or tank-less parties to make it even less possible to skimp on a tank.

If you could always rotate defensives and/or stack external mit to just barely survive a tank buster as a non-tank and be healed instantly before an auto could finish you, that'd be game-breaking, after all. Tanks aren't *guffaw* healers -- mein gott.

Inbuilt mitigation functionally enforcing a tank while casual content does nothing to enforce any other role (and high end content doesn’t even try to enforce a healer) is such a crap decision

Why are tanks so babied in this game

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

The trinity is simply not applied.

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The value that tanks and healers provide is entirely dependent on the existence of a trinity design. There are games that don't use a trinity, but in those games, everyone is a DPS.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

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The interdependence between tanks and healers is central to how a trinity design works. In a traditional trinity design, if your tank doesn't mitigate effectively, or your healer doesn't keep your tank's HP above a critical threshold, then the tank dies and the rest of the team gets oneshot. This is why support roles were historically high value. I think FFXIV attracted a lot of skilled players to supports in ARR and Heavensward because you not only had this going on, but you also had the capability to do competitive damage through alternative gearing options and damage stances.

Over time, the game has shifted towards being a trinity design in name only. You have an undying tank that does underwhelming damage on a self-positioning boss with an understudy on standby in case they mess up, you have healers on standby hoping that they'll be paged in to fix any mistakes and tidy up any unaddressed damage, and then you have DPS doing the bulk of the high value gameplay. At this point, you might as well convert all jobs to DPS and give everyone DPS parity, so that everyone has equal value. Maybe you distribute a few raidwide defensives and heals to some more 'support-orientated' jobs, and then let the boss completely self-position. There are a number of MMOs that do this already. The only reason FFXIV doesn't do this openly is because they made a historical commitment to the trinity design approach years ago and now they can't openly change away from it. But it's in appearance only, and supports are the ones that lose out.

I think if you want to restore value to the support roles, they need to be interdependent again. That means toning back the self-sustain and mitigation inflation.

To me the main issues that make tanks no longer feel like as defined as a role is that power-creep was allowed to get out of hand, arguably because of a specific job which I think we can all easily identify, and that just set the tone for most of the other tanks to then not be allowed to fall too far behind. Rinse repeat that cycle over a decade and well, you see what happens. So ultimately we ended up with tanks being way too self-sufficient and too powerful defensively.
Couple that with player complaints over the years of jobs and/or content being too hard based on one-off bad experiences or players, leading to jobs and encounters being drastically simplified and you end up with jobs that basically play themselves.

Also, I feel there was a vast underestimation of the power of self-healing as a defensive tool where things like shields and % mitigation can reduce or at best nullify incoming damage but self-healing can potentially go beyond that and undo/recover damage that was done previously when the healing crosses that threshold of outpacing the rate of incoming damage. This makes it far more difficult to balance against other forms of defenses.

Healers then got screwed because with tanks being so powerful defensively, the whole point of the role basically got nullified. If your primary responsibility is to heal a specific player but that player can just keep their health up mostly by themselves, then what are you even there for?

First and foremost, to improve both tank and healer game-play, tanks need their defensive capabilities, mostly in the self-healing category, reduced.

Then for tanks, there needs to be more tank specific mechanics in fights asides from the occasional buster. More hard-hitting boss abilities targeting other players that the tank has to either pick-up or have to use their defensives they can target others with. More phases with adds or multiple bosses on the field at once. More forced tank swaps. More fights where boss positioning and/or location in the arena matters. You could have entire mechanics about the boss needing to be moved to changing parts of the arena such as something appearing in the arena that needs to be destroyed or it will explode and do a ton of damage but you can lead the boss over to and have it cast an AoE on you that if it hits the object it breaks it or does a bunch of damage to it to make breaking it way easier. Anyways, I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.

As for healers, the part I mentioned for tanks about spreading the damage to other party members more that the tank has to help mitigate so that the party member will survive would also help the healer have more to do.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Also, I feel there was a vast underestimation of the power of self-healing as a defensive tool where things like shields and % mitigation can reduce or at best nullify incoming damage but self-healing can potentially go beyond that and undo/recover damage that was done previously when the healing crosses that threshold of outpacing the rate of incoming damage. This makes it far more difficult to balance against other forms of defenses.

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I think this is still true given the design of 40% mits: WAR got a total of 1500 potency hot, DRK got a 1200 potency excog, PLD got a 1000 potency shield. Roughly translates to shields being valued (or taxed, if you will) more than direct heals, which are valued more than heals over time. For tank busters this is generally true as shield can prevent you from dying where a heal will not if you were to drop to 0 without it in both scenarios, but for general attrition (be it autos in raids or damage from trash in dungeons) the overall potency is king.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Then for tanks, there needs to be more tank specific mechanics in fights asides from the occasional buster. More hard-hitting boss abilities targeting other players that the tank has to either pick-up or have to use their defensives they can other target others with. More phases with adds or multiple bosses on the field at once. More forced tank swaps. More fights where boss positioning and/or location in the arena matters. You could have entire mechanics about the boss needing to be moved to changing parts of the arena such as something appearing in the arena that needs to be destroyed or it will explode and do a ton of damage but you can lead the boss over to and have it cast an AoE on you that if it hits the object it breaks it or does a bunch of damage to it to make breaking it way easier. Anyways, I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.

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I really like the beam stack-markers that also have the tanks-in-front-or-people-might-die mechanic. If XIV stole the mechanic of autos applying a stacking debuff forcing a swap every now an then in savage, I reckon we'd also see much higher demand for general self-sustain balance across tanks, as right now it seems tanks are only balanced on two vectors: DPS and tank busters. There is also raid-wide mitigation, but given M3S exists I wouldn't say tanks are currently balanced in that aspect at all.

Nah, Bloodwhetting is a result of healers not healing in dungeons, and Raw Intuition should become a tank role ability. Sorry not sorry. If you want it to be nerfed, tough luck. Healers prove day in and day out why Bloodwhetting never gets nerfed by having nothing better to do than grief dark knights all day in the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Nah, Bloodwhetting is a result of healers not healing in dungeons, and Raw Intuition should become a tank role ability. Sorry not sorry. If you want it to be nerfed, tough luck. Healers prove day in and day out why Bloodwhetting never gets nerfed by having nothing better to do than grief dark knights all day in the duty finder.

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“Makes a skill that it so healers never need to heal”

“Why don’t healers heal”

Uh profit I guess

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Nah, Bloodwhetting is a result of healers not healing in dungeons, and Raw Intuition should become a tank role ability. Sorry not sorry. If you want it to be nerfed, tough luck. Healers prove day in and day out why Bloodwhetting never gets nerfed by having nothing better to do than grief dark knights all day in the duty finder.

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"Bloodwhetting is a result of healers not healing in dungeons" <-- I wish the forums would require you to read the stuff you type before you are allowed to hit post...

Remove Bloodwhetting or just cap it.. like how other tanks have caps

Healing from 10% to 100% in 2 seconds is not that balance

Even if you nerf every other war utility has it will still be strongest healing ability in the game

Few years ago we complain about benediction now we got Bloodwhetting

Bloodwhetting isn't going to be changed to be less effective at this point. Warrior is what it is. A problem I have been seeing lately though is an increase in Main Character syndrome in WARs. Many are not moving bosses anymore with mechanics the rest of the raid has to avoid because they are a WAR and don't die. So when playing a melee DPS, I'm stuck on the other side of the arena unable to do any melee attacks because WAR doesn't care about anyone but WAR. I like the job and tanking, but I mainly play Paladin or Gunbreaker because WAR has become boring to me. I play it when I want to blow off steam in a dungeon mainly now. Not sure if anyone else is seeing this issue in roullettes but it's making me resent the job in general.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

Bloodwhetting isn't going to be changed to be less effective at this point. Warrior is what it is. A problem I have been seeing lately though is an increase in Main Character syndrome in WARs. Many are not moving bosses anymore with mechanics the rest of the raid has to avoid because they are a WAR and don't die. So when playing a melee DPS, I'm stuck on the other side of the arena unable to do any melee attacks because WAR doesn't care about anyone but WAR. I like the job and tanking, but I mainly play Paladin or Gunbreaker because WAR has become boring to me. I play it when I want to blow off steam in a dungeon mainly now. Not sure if anyone else is seeing this issue in roullettes but it's making me resent the job in general.

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I've seen that as well, tanks not moving the boss to ensure DPS can safely reach positionals.
In my opinion it's most likely because of the general idea the boss will move to the middle on its own and that there's no need to position the boss.

But that's a player issue.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

Bloodwhetting isn't going to be changed to be less effective at this point. Warrior is what it is. A problem I have been seeing lately though is an increase in Main Character syndrome in WARs. Many are not moving bosses anymore with mechanics the rest of the raid has to avoid because they are a WAR and don't die. So when playing a melee DPS, I'm stuck on the other side of the arena unable to do any melee attacks because WAR doesn't care about anyone but WAR. I like the job and tanking, but I mainly play Paladin or Gunbreaker because WAR has become boring to me. I play it when I want to blow off steam in a dungeon mainly now. Not sure if anyone else is seeing this issue in roullettes but it's making me resent the job in general.

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As someone who mains tank, it is sad to see other tanks do this. In my experience, most of the tanks doing this don't do anything that's not normal mode content, and so they don't even experience enrage wiping the party because they couldn't do their tank responsibilities correctly. It's definitely a skill issue on their part. Not a reason to nerf warrior.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

As someone who mains tank, it is sad to see other tanks do this. In my experience, most of the tanks doing this don't do anything that's not normal mode content, and so they don't even experience enrage wiping the party because they couldn't do their tank responsibilities correctly. It's definitely a skill issue on their part. Not a reason to nerf warrior.

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You know what I was salty with you in the other post but I actually totally agree with this point. I still believe WAR needs to be nerfed but not being punished for basically having no tank responsibilities so you continue to do things like poor positioning or tanking mechanics in weird spots that make the other players jobs harder is not in it of itself a reason to nerf WAR because you can do this sort of bad gameplay on any tank

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

As someone who mains tank, it is sad to see other tanks do this. In my experience, most of the tanks doing this don't do anything that's not normal mode content, and so they don't even experience enrage wiping the party because they couldn't do their tank responsibilities correctly. It's definitely a skill issue on their part. Not a reason to nerf warrior.

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I mean it depends on perspective. I can quite obviously imagine that they're many players who think the current level of warrior self-healing is not only useful to the game's balance, but in fact a requirement to success. Of course, those players cannot be held responsible for the other 95% of players who aren't as reliant on overpowered crutches making them appear quite bad. But yeah I get it. It's nice the game caters to all kinds of players.