A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Why does [I like story] equate to [I'm too stupid to hold a controller]? That's simply not true. Casual also doesn't mean brain-dead and yet SE pretends it does. And it always baffles me how complacent the community has gotten. Like it's unheard of for games to have difficulty settings.

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you realise people have differeing skill levels and may really just enjoy the story and can play to a bare minimum.

For "hard" content you have the optional content that SE make available to you - there is no need (nor desire in the Devs minds) to make MSQ harder as that will simply drive away many players who find it is no longer possible or enjoyable to progress in the time that they have available.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I honestly wish I could like this comment more. I've been saying this for years. Not only here, but other MMOs I play which have similar takes.

The forum community is always elite players who never, ever make a mistake in anything, and they always want the game to be INCREDIBLY hard, punishing and unforgiving. Maybe even permanent death, or that the very least the loss of all your stuff (which some old MMOs used to do.)

Thank god the forum community in almost any game makes up such a tiny fraction of the overall playerbase. There is a reason AAA MMOs have mostly easy dungeons.

It's because the age of the average gamer in the US today is 35 years old. And most have families now. This isn't 2005 anymore. Most people that started playing old school games are now adults. They play a couple hours a night or whenever they can sneak some time in. They don't want to spend time figuring out crazy hard dungeons.

More so in a Final Fantasy game, where story is king.

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Its about not making it harder but making it more interesting. Every dungeon in this game is very linear. We did ask to have "Mythic plus" for those that want a challenge. But Yoshi said no.

And the comment of elite players not everybody are elite players , some (speaking for myself) want a challenge in between patch cycles after extreme and savage content has been done.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Didn't they update them to give decent leveling gear now?

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If you are of level, yeah the gear is relevant.
Though like a toddler rapidly outgrowing their clothes, you level up so fast at that point in the game, and the stat difference makes no real difference when the numbers are all so low and close together, that it's still not really worth going out of your way for.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Yet most groups I get still do the two rooms and the puzzle. I've only had one where the tank refused to do them and pushed the party to just ignore it all. And the rest of us didn't really like doing that. There's something fun about the little mini puzzles with the heads to open the doors.

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k.
That's some nice anecdotal experience.
My anecdotal experience is I've seen the party go out of their way for this stuff so few times this expac (during multiple new player booms) that I can count it on one hand.
Our personal experiences don't really matter too much though when the writing is on the wall as far as what the devs and what the greater community think.

Personally, I believe that mini puzzles are fun, but if there is a good way to integrate them into FF14 style dungeons the dev team have not figured out how to yet. Not when one of the highlights is something like pushing the right button in Sastasha.

Yep. I want harder dungeons. Anything that requires more sophisticated play is fine with me.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I honestly wish I could like this comment more. I've been saying this for years. Not only here, but other MMOs I play which have similar takes.

The forum community is always elite players who never, ever make a mistake in anything, and they always want the game to be INCREDIBLY hard, punishing and unforgiving. Maybe even permanent death, or that the very least the loss of all your stuff (which some old MMOs used to do.)

Thank god the forum community in almost any game makes up such a tiny fraction of the overall playerbase. There is a reason AAA MMOs have mostly easy dungeons.

It's because the age of the average gamer in the US today is 35 years old. And most have families now. This isn't 2005 anymore. Most people that started playing old school games are now adults. They play a couple hours a night or whenever they can sneak some time in. They don't want to spend time figuring out crazy hard dungeons.

More so in a Final Fantasy game, where story is king.

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I'm 32 with a full time job and back in school full time to finish my bachelor's degree.

Doesn't change my stance on not wanting dungeons to be brain dead.

Again, no one is asking for ex or savage level.

Just... Maybe something more along the lines of pharos Sirius when it released, or AK.

You know, make you think a bit. Them being slightly more difficult won't increase the time it takes to complete them much. In fact, the time it takes now is laughable. It used to take 35 minutes to get through leveling dungeons back in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I'm 32 with a full time job and back in school full time to finish my bachelor's degree.

Doesn't change my stance on not wanting dungeons to be brain dead.

Again, no one is asking for ex or savage level.

Just... Maybe something more along the lines of pharos Sirius when it released, or AK.

You know, make you think a bit. Them being slightly more difficult won't increase the time it takes to complete them much. In fact, the time it takes now is laughable. It used to take 35 minutes to get through leveling dungeons back in 2.0.

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As much as I also liked Pharos Sirius, getting it in roulette was also a wasted queue more often than not. It was very frequent for one or two of the people to leave the dungeon immediately upon queueing in. That's what I don't want to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Again, no one is asking for ex or savage level.

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but that's the content for people that want harder content! even if many of them are way too complicated and hard for many of the people that want just slightly harder content! no, go do extremes and savage and stop complaining!

like, why do posters do this? I personally think savage content is too hard and that extreme is verging on too complicated in certain fights (like SoSex) and thus don't do either content, yet I want harder 'normal' content because as it currently is, most of it is way too easy
but I guess I'm a tryhard elitist raider for wanting bardam/doma levels of spicyness in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

but that's the content for people that want harder content! even if many of them are way too complicated and hard for many of the people that want just slightly harder content! no, go do extremes and savage and stop complaining!

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It doesn't serve the same purpose though.
A big 8 person boss fight is pretty different from a 4 person dungeon run.
And even if one enjoys EX and Savage content doesn't help roulettes (or even just story progression) not be a drag.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

As much as I also liked Pharos Sirius, getting it in roulette was also a wasted queue more often than not. It was very frequent for one or two of the people to leave the dungeon immediately upon queueing in. That's what I don't want to deal with.

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If all the duties at that time were like Pharos Sirius in terms of difficulty and mechanical involvement, people wouldn't have been queue bailing to try and get a different duty.

I mostly wish there were varied mechanics in the stretches between bosses more regularly.

99% of the trash mobs in the game just use basic telegraphed AoEs and/or instant attacks for extra tank damage, and unique trash mobs like the Amaurot bombs/dark sprites that encourage a kill priority should be the norm, not the exception.

Environmental hazards like the vines in Amdapor Keep hard or the steam vents in Sohm Ahl hard that are equally effective on both players and enemies alike also spice things up and should be more commonplace.

It's a shame there are no hard dungeons because it's a different type of gameplay entirely to raids, yet we're denied any depth to them. It's one of the few pieces of content where your aoe toolkit is actually a thing, where tank damage can be quite high and rotating cooldowns and making use of stuns or arm's length's slow is important.

Yet, instead dungeons are strictly limited to boring daily chores for tomes and story. It feels like a waste that the developers pour resources into something that becomes a 15 minute zerg that most people want done and over with as fast as possible.

I'll never understand why that's the best way to go. By all means have some easy story dungeons for MSQ purposes, but why do they all have to be like that?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I'm 32 with a full time job and back in school full time to finish my bachelor's degree.

Doesn't change my stance on not wanting dungeons to be brain dead.

Again, no one is asking for ex or savage level.

Just... Maybe something more along the lines of pharos Sirius when it released, or AK.

You know, make you think a bit. Them being slightly more difficult won't increase the time it takes to complete them much. In fact, the time it takes now is laughable. It used to take 35 minutes to get through leveling dungeons back in 2.0.

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That's a slippery slope. As I understand it, Pharos Sirius was nerfed because so many people complained about it. The same thing happened in WoW during Cataclysm, and an entire MMO, WildStar, was literally shut down because - among its many problems - the content was intentionally hard.

I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but making dungeons even a bit harder may lead to new dungeons becoming even more difficult down the road. And contrary to what the forums say, most people do not want that.

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Originally Posted by Bearded

For "hard" content you have the optional content that SE make available to you - there is no need (nor desire in the Devs minds) to make MSQ harder as that will simply drive away many players who find it is no longer possible or enjoyable to progress in the time that they have available.

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I'm very sorry for the double post, but this bears repeating.

For those of you looking for a greater challenge, that content exists. It is called Savage or Extreme. It was implemented into the game specifically for players who want to do more than steamroll through a dungeon. Saying you would like something in between Savage and normal dungeons is something I just don't know will ever happen because it's kind of like having your cake and eating it, too.

You have two options when it comes to content. You can do the normal/casual mode which is there for people that primarily want to experience the story or farm tomestones as fast as possible. Or you can do Savage/EX which will provide a greater challenge.

A third option actually exists: Hard mode. But that's rolled up into roulettes so most people don't seem to count that. But it's actually there.

I've always personally opposed the calls to make normal content more difficult when the devs have specifically put content in the game that is designed for more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I'm very sorry for the double post, but this bears repeating.

For those of you looking for a greater challenge, that content exists. It is called Savage or Extreme. It was implemented into the game specifically for players who want to do more than steamroll through a dungeon. Saying you would like something in between Savage and normal dungeons is something I just don't know will ever happen because it's kind of like having your cake and eating it, too.

You have two options when it comes to content. You can do the normal/casual mode which is there for people that primarily want to experience the story or farm tomestones as fast as possible. Or you can do Savage/EX which will provide a greater challenge.

A third option actually exists: Hard mode. But that's rolled up into roulettes so most people don't seem to count that. But it's actually there.

I've always personally opposed the calls to make normal content more difficult when the devs have specifically put content in the game that is designed for more of a challenge.

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So what about those that want midcore content? When i did savage back in hw. It was hard when you first progress. Once you have the fight down its not that bad/hard anymore.

We need something more challenging!

You have something more challenging - its stuff outside of the MSQ.

Leave the MSQ alone and if you want "harder" stuff then unlock the harder versions and do that - it's not all that complicated.

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Originally Posted by Lium

That's a slippery slope. As I understand it, Pharos Sirius was nerfed because so many people complained about it. The same thing happened in WoW during Cataclysm, and an entire MMO, WildStar, was literally shut down because - among its many problems - the content was intentionally hard.

I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but making dungeons even a bit harder may lead to new dungeons becoming even more difficult down the road. And contrary to what the forums say, most people do not want that.

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Come on, citing a slippery slope as a reason to be against a view point is one of, if not the, most well known argumentative fallacies. I really hope I don't have to say that se won't be magically compelled to make dungeons ultimate levels of difficult by the time 10.0 rolls around do i?

And wildstar, contrary to the mythology surrounding the game, did not shut down because the game was "too hard". I played the game ultra casually at the start, 'cause housing in that game was a whole game unto itself and the dungeons/adventures were fun enough to keep my interest. Then I found that there were housing items in the raids, and well my fate was sealed. I was in a social guild that was partnered with an rp guild to form a casual raiding group and we made it through to the end beating the hardest raid encounters with clickers, keyboard turners, people who have never raided before this, people who have never played an mmo outside of rp, people who I swear thought a "rotation" was literally spinning your character as you used skills (that was a fun wipe), young people, old people, people with full time jobs, people whose jobs required them to be on call 24/7, and basically literally any kind of casual stereotype you could think of. So yeah no, it was a little bit more complex than the content being "too hard". (Short version, terrible advertising, literal hate and harassment campaigns on content creators trying the game out, poor leadership decisions causing the game to be delayed, redesigned, and released too early killing its hype cycle and under delivering, early layoffs before they could recover lost production ground after the early launch,the producer literally promising new content every month at launch holy shit, and the devs having to really stretch out grinds to extend gameplay because they released way too early. There's more, but those are the roots of it from what I saw)

(Don't wanna spam post this one point so)

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Originally Posted by Lium

Hence, why I said in regards to WildStar "among its many problems." Meaning that was only one of the reasons. I played WildStar in beta and at launch. I loved that game back in 2014.

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I mean this post is literally contrary to the "it's too hard/inaccessible to casuals" claim. Wildstar's terrible advertising and bandaid grind gave off the impression that the content was inaccessibly difficult for the average player, but the content itself (the topic this thread is discussing) did not demand so much of the player that the people who have little time or experience couldn't complete it. Because like I said, I've played with clickers, collage kids, and full-time wokers+kids who have multiple avatus kills to their names. With enough encouragement to get past that "hardcores only" BS, class/role mentorship to hack through the arcane build systems, and enough support to speed up the pre-raid grind, career rpers and housing addicts (hello!) can see through the most energetic and complex raid encounters I've seen in a game.

Varied and engaging game mechanics are not gatekeepers.
And citing wildstar's gameplay as a primary reason for why it shut down is just as an unnuanced and inaccurate take as "1.0 shut down because the flowerpots had too many polygons." Both do a disservice to anyone who is actually wanting to learn from the mistakes of those two games.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Liking WildStar and not wanting this game's normal content to become more difficult are not mutually exclusive.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say about that particular topic.

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K I didn't say it was, I just said that your claims didn't hold up to scrutiny.
by "this post" I mean the one you are reading, by me, this one, post #144. Hello. I Am The Post.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I mean this post is literally contrary to the "it's too hard/inaccessible to casuals" claim.

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Liking WildStar and not wanting this game's normal content to become more difficult are not mutually exclusive.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say about that particular topic.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

It doesn't serve the same purpose though.
A big 8 person boss fight is pretty different from a 4 person dungeon run.
And even if one enjoys EX and Savage content doesn't help roulettes (or even just story progression) not be a drag.

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exactly, they are completely different things which makes it hella infuriating when people tell you to go do that when you want harder dungeons

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

If all the duties at that time were like Pharos Sirius in terms of difficulty and mechanical involvement, people wouldn't have been queue bailing to try and get a different duty.

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No, they would have instead quit the game. The more that is done, the more niche it becomes, the less players the game has. The devs want the basic content that everyone is required to do to be accessible. That means it's going to be easy and not ask too much and is probably going to bore some who aren't challenged by it. There are other things the devs put in the game for that exact challenge.

The other thing to remember is the devs also want players to do the content. They tried more hard mode or tricky dungeons, like Pharos Sirius, and the playerbase avoided them. So where is their return on the work put in if their players avoid it?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

No, they would have instead quit the game. The more that is done, the more niche it becomes, the less players the game has. The devs want the basic content that everyone is required to do to be accessible. That means it's going to be easy and not ask too much and is probably going to bore some who aren't challenged by it. There are other things the devs put in the game for that exact challenge.

The other thing to remember is the devs also want players to do the content. They tried more hard mode or tricky dungeons, like Pharos Sirius, and the playerbase avoided them. So where is their return on the work put in if their players avoid it?

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Actually most people's reasoning wasn't the difficulty, it was that the rewards were of the same ilvl as wp and AK, but it was more difficult, so why bother.

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Originally Posted by Lium

That's a slippery slope. As I understand it, Pharos Sirius was nerfed because so many people complained about it. The same thing happened in WoW during Cataclysm, and an entire MMO, WildStar, was literally shut down because - among its many problems - the content was intentionally hard.

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Even with the bracketed off qualifiers there, that is a gross oversimplification...

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I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but making dungeons even a bit harder may lead to new dungeons becoming even more difficult down the road.

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More difficult in terms of objective mechanical depth? Sure. That is likely.

More difficult in terms of exceeding what players are used to? No. Precisely because they've been made just "a bit harder" each step along that slope.

As players, we only feel the relative difficulty. We work in derivatives. So long as the rate of increase doesn't itself increase, we'll notice the bump the one time and, so long as the changes are in fact centered in and across the mainstay experience, that slope will feel flat thereafter.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Liking WildStar and not wanting this game's normal content to become more difficult are not mutually exclusive.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say about that particular topic.

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Wildstar shutdown because it released too early and the dev team got gutted right at the start gate, they didn't have the resources anymore to continue adding consistently to the game, people left before they knew about the attunements + difficulty but the game had a dedicated playerbase but the dungeon content was misjudged to be its downfall.

Cataclysm was not hard, it was a syndrome with how long WOTLK last patch took and people knew every fight to heart, Cata release was more of actually this is different and no more on auto pilot.

FF14 earlier dungeons were not hard but defo more challanging what we have now which has fostered a playerbase which skill base has regressed and gotten worse over time.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Can we PLEASE not get undertuned dungeons anymore? Matoyas Relict comes to mind. This is just, in my opinion, incredibly boring. Everything dies pretty much immediately and there isn't any serious risk. That's all.

Thanks for coming to my Talk.

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FFXIV needs mythic plus dungeons IMO

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

FFXIV needs mythic plus dungeons IMO

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Preferably without the BS of the Vault or the Keystones themselves.

A relatively low initial development cost to exponentially increase the enjoyable playtime per development hour spent on dungeons, all while providing incredibly fine and self-directed difficulty levels that'd allow for otherwise nearly inexistent midcore play? Yeah, I'll take that.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

No, they would have instead quit the game. The more that is done, the more niche it becomes, the less players the game has. The devs want the basic content that everyone is required to do to be accessible. That means it's going to be easy and not ask too much and is probably going to bore some who aren't challenged by it. There are other things the devs put in the game for that exact challenge.

The other thing to remember is the devs also want players to do the content. They tried more hard mode or tricky dungeons, like Pharos Sirius, and the playerbase avoided them. So where is their return on the work put in if their players avoid it?

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Try not to speak for other people as if you are some representative of the majority. If you're going to quit a game because they want you to actually play the game instead of letting it run itself like a spinoff of an idle heroes game that's your choice alone.

The player base did not avoid hard mode or tricky dungeons. The small faction I call lazy players avoided those while the majority of the player base actually did those duties when they appeared in roulettes and completed them without issue.

All of these "problem" duties that everybody supposedly avoids in roulettes, I've ran them all countless times. It was extremely rare to see someone actually abandon the duty just because it came up. Because of this at the current point in time I feel every single person claiming that they always see people abandon those duties are either the one abandoning the duty because they don't want to do it and are upset because they then have to wait 30 minutes to queue again, or are giving absurd exaggerations because they're afraid of having to learn basic competency in playing the game.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Wildstar shutdown because it released too early and the dev team got gutted right at the start gate, they didn't have the resources anymore to continue adding consistently to the game, people left before they knew about the attunements + difficulty but the game had a dedicated playerbase but the dungeon content was misjudged to be its downfall.

Cataclysm was not hard, it was a syndrome with how long WOTLK last patch took and people knew every fight to heart, Cata release was more of actually this is different and no more on auto pilot.

FF14 earlier dungeons were not hard but defo more challanging what we have now which has fostered a playerbase which skill base has regressed and gotten worse over time.

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ARR dungeons definitely require you to pay more attention. I've said over on Reddit that whenever those dungeons pop up in the Leveling Roulette, I know it'll be more challenging than Expert dungeons, mostly because I can't remember the mechanics. :p.

But that begs the question. If ARR dungeons were more challenging than current dungeons, why is that? Why would SE slowly make the dungeons more faceroll easy if purportedly more players wanted that content to be more difficult? I obviously don't have the metrics but a logical guess would be because the majority of players wanted it that way. And remember, the forums are not where the majority of players are.

Your point about Cataclysm is partly true. It's been 10 years but I remember one of (please note the words "one of" before jumping in and saying "NO THE PROBLEM WITH CATA WAS...". Not you specifically raelgun, just the forum in general) the top complaints in Cataclysm was that it was too hard. And that was in fact a result of WOTLK essentially being too easy.

WOTLK was the first expansion I remember the tanks starting to YOLO pull everything. Prior to WOTLK, you actually had to have CC in dungeons (Improved SAP, Mind Control, etc.) and pull only a few mobs at a time, unless you were crazy overgeared and had a really good healer. I'll never forget going into one of the first Level 80 dungeons back then, and this undead warrior tank started running as soon as we zoned in and really didn't stop running until we got to the first boss. I thought he was griefing us, but I quickly found out that's how the game had evolved to be.

People started saying the game was too easy and boring. So to rectify this, Blizzard made Cata dungeons essentially go back to how they were in vanilla WoW. That is not anecdotal. You can google that.

And then everyone said the game was too hard. Again, Cata had other issues, many of which I don't remember, but the complaints about difficulty was certainly one of them.

Now, regarding FFXIV, if people are actually advocating for more ARR style dungeons, I'd probably be okay with that. But again, if that's the case, why aren't they doing that?

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Originally Posted by Lium

But that begs the question. If ARR dungeons were more challenging than current dungeons, why is that? Why would SE slowly make the dungeons more faceroll easy if purportedly more players wanted that content to be more difficult? I obviously don't have the metrics but a logical guess would be because the majority of players wanted it that way. And remember, the forums are not where the majority of players are.

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Because developers make assumptions which are not always reflective of the feedback given or even welcomed. WoW is quite notorious for that despite very vocal opposition from practically every level. Keep in mind, their dev team said, and I quote "You think you want WoW Classic, but really, you don't."

In regards to FFXIV specifically, I need only point to current Bard and Monk as primary examples of the dev team not listening to feedback. Bard was the most popular DPS in Stormblood and has dropped to battling with Black Mage for the least popular. While Dancer inevitably played a factor in its decline. It's still a pretty sizable fall from grace. The Monk reception especially stands out as the dev team were forced to not only panic buff it but perform two overhauls through Shadowbringers all while claiming Monk had been the job they were "most proud of" at the media tour prior. And now they've overhauled it again for Endwalker.

The issue with previously difficult dungeons is there has always been an easier alternative. Why would anyone bother with a harder objective for the exact same rewards? Look at Alliance Roulette and how people ilvl cheese it to purposely force Crystal Tower. In fact, Orbonne had to be nerfed and given echo just to keep people from bailing. Was it too hard? No. It's just you could more easily wipe, thus wasting upwards of 40-60 minutes for the same rewards a braindead LotA offered. Pharos Sirius had similar problems; being much harder than its counterpart dungeons without the incentive to compensate. Imagine if you could only choose a hypothetical Roulette that either gave you all of Shadowbringers' leveling dungeons (71-80) or its Expert dungeons (80+). I guarantee you almost no one would ever touch the Leveling version because Expert dungeons are easier.

At the end of the day, it's all about the reward offered. If two dungeons released in a patch were the same difficulty, and both were harder than what we have now. No one would really say anything. They'd still run them just as normal because there isn't an "easier" alternative.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

At the end of the day, it's all about the reward offered.

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Excellent points all around, but your post brings up another issue I've seen repeated in this thread. Specifically, the part I just quoted.

Why is it only about the reward? That's the fallacy in the argument. If people just want a challenge, then shouldn't that be the reward in and of itself? Assuming that's what they are really after, the challenge. Not brain dead content.

If SE offers a more difficult dungeon than what we have now, but as you say, no one plays it when an easier alternative exists, is that not a player problem? Because if you go with that argument, it sounds like the content you're looking for is actually out there, you just don't want to play it because you can do an easier dungeon and gain the same reward for doing less work. (Not you specifically. Just you in general.)

Personally I feel we should have a higher item level dungeon for Expert. If you got Expert unlocked then that means you're at max level and are sporting some pretty high end gear and 490 isn't considered as "high end" anymore. In my personal opinion I feel that those 2 dungeons should be included in the normal Level 80 Dungeons roulette where people are still trying to get gear and story progression and for Expert they need to be tuned up close to the current max, like 510 or 520 minimum. We also don't need 490 gear at endgame but some extra rewards that can benefit us at endgame wouldn't go amiss.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Excellent points all around, but your post brings up another issue I've seen repeated in this thread. Specifically, the part I just quoted.

Why is it only about the reward? That's the fallacy in the argument. If people just want a challenge, then shouldn't that be the reward in and of itself? Assuming that's what they are really after, the challenge. Not brain dead content.

If SE offers a more difficult dungeon than what we have now, but as you say, no one plays it when an easier alternative exists, is that not a player problem? Because if you go with that argument, it sounds like the content you're looking for is actually out there, you just don't want to play it because you can do an easier dungeon and gain the same reward for doing less work. (Not you specifically. Just you in general.)

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because the rewards are needed to progress.

as much as i like doing doma castle im not going to manually queue for it because i need the tomestones to buy gear.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

because the rewards are needed to progress.

as much as i like doing doma castle im not going to manually queue for it because i need the tomestones to buy gear.

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Then again, that's a player problem. And that is EXACTLY the same point I made earlier in this thread. In fact, I called that out specifically. Dungeons are designed the way they are now so you can experience the story first and foremost, but also for people to get their tomestones as fast as possible and move on.

If SE makes MSQ dungeons more difficult, that is a potential roadblock to your point and to this very thread. Because I think far more people would rather get through their daily roulettes as quickly and as efficiently as possible (how many threads have you seen on here decrying the slow pace of some tanks) rather than have to figure out harder mechanics. Which, again, that content exists. It's out there. You just don't want to do it because easier alternatives exist.

As pointed out, Pharos Sirius was an example for a harder-than-usual dungeon at the time, and people would bail on it if it popped for them. And the reason people bailed was (allegedly) because the reward was not good enough for the time spent in it. Which completely negates the point of the OP and this thread.

If it is indeed about the reward, then what you want is Savage/Ex where the rewards AND the challenges are greater than what you get in normal content. If what you want is just more of a challenge, then the challenge alone should be the reward you're looking for.

Would mind more challenging dungeons. ARR dungeons hard? When I played through ARR when it was current. Some bosses were tricky and a few dungeons felt like over stretched rubber band. But never found any difficult..but thats my opinion.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Would mind more challenging dungeons. ARR dungeons hard? When I played through ARR when it was current. Some bosses were tricky and a few dungeons felt like over stretched rubber band. But never found any difficult..but thats my opinion.

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Yeah once again, I don't know what people are talking about when they say ARR or some SB dungeons were hard. It's completely mind boggling. There was exactly 2 bosses I remember as annoying (mind you, annoying, not hard) from when they were relevant content : Demon Wall in Amdapor, and Pharos first boss. Everything else was already piss easy back then.

SB is even more hilarious, people are talking about Bardam, there was nothing remotely difficult about Bardam.

If you think any of that was "difficult", you're closer to the "filthy casuals" you despise so much than you think.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

Yeah once again, I don't know what people are talking about when they say ARR or some SB dungeons were hard. It's completely mind boggling. There was exactly 2 bosses I remember as annoying (mind you, annoying, not hard) from when they were relevant content : Demon Wall in Amdapor, and Pharos first boss. Everything else was already piss easy back then.

SB is even more hilarious, people are talking about Bardam, there was nothing remotely difficult about Bardam.

If you think any of that was "difficult", you're closer to the "filthy casuals" you despise so much than you think.

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One could also encounter wipes on the last bosses of Pharos (pre-nerf) and the Vault.

I think the cases made for Bardam and Doma were very specifically about their trash, though, in that they can actually hurt a bit, up from tickling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

One could also encounter wipes on the last bosses of Pharos (pre-nerf) and the Vault.

I think the cases made for Bardam and Doma were very specifically about their trash, though, in that they can actually hurt a bit, up from tickling.

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All that does is make you stop halfway through the pull if you are undergeared. It's not like it makes you go gigabrain with CC or requires any skill whatsoever.

dungeons will get even easier

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

dungeons will get even easier

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How can you even make it easier at this point.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

How can you even make it easier at this point.

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The monsters see you and kill themselves because they know who you are and realize they can't win anyway. Dungeons with no enemies to actually fight.