6.0 Red Mage speculation

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Depending on spell speed, BLM has unrestricted movement for 17s-20s of every minute through two Sharpcasts, a Triple Cast, a Swiftcast, and two Xenoglossies. RDM has unrestricted movement for minimally 30s of every minute through Dualcasts.

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Exactly, and thats the issue, mobile phases usually last several seconds and even if in theory RDM can move 50% of the time, only has a GCD worth of time of free movement before being forced to cast again or lose damage. At best helps with minor positioning that shouldnt be needed once you know the fight. I would like for RDM to stop being considered the "training wheels" of the caster jobs, the Rez mage meme was quite sad

17-20 seconds on row of free casts >>> 2.X seconds after each 2.X second cast.

A simple moving phase example would be on Nier final raid with the flying 4 automata mobs that cast a huge aoe in front of them and the entire raid gotta keep moving behind each one. We are speaking of 10-15 seconds of "keep moving or stop cast a spell and eat a vul stack" and not even mentioning EX or raids/savage on wich the consecuences are far nastier than on a casual 24 man raid

Moving phases ironically tend to hurt RDM the most due to his mobility being extremely conditional on making a cast to get the dual cast instant spell

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

[BLM] 17-20 seconds on row of free casts >>> [RDM] 2.X seconds after each 2.X second cast.

Moving phases ironically tend to hurt RDM the most due to his mobility being extremely conditional on making a cast to get the dual cast instant spell

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On top of every other spell being instant, RDM has 10.2s of movement three times every two minutes, or about 15.1s per minute, if you can stay in melee range during the first 3.1s of each movement. This is only a problem in specific fights with specific party compositions. It's not a problem in general; it's just really annoying when you do end up in one of those fights with the wrong party.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

On top of every other spell being instant, RDM has 10.2s of movement three times every two minutes, or about 15.1s per minute, if you can stay in melee range during the first 3.1s of each movement. This is only a problem in specific fights with specific party compositions. It's not a problem in general; it's just really annoying when you do end up in one of those fights with the wrong party.

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That is completely unreliable and thats the reason I didnt even mentioned it. It depends on A: Having 80/80 mana or over in an specific moment (and you cant delay using it too much) and B: that the melee target is a "safe area". Is not like melees never have to go away or anything. Is like killing a boss with dots after most of people is dead: It is possible but not something you rely on

RDM has mobility in "theory" but only in extremely short (albeit continious) moments or longer times under a specific moment of the rotation (which you cant delay too much anyways or you mess with everything) that relies on having a target on a "safe" zone

Nothing really to add, but I will say I'm enjoying the back and forth over the last couple of pages. It has really made me think about a few things. Good stuff.

I tend to consider all the casters to be pretty similar in movement overall, but that they represent different approaches to mobility. For example, BLM feels like a turret but a skilled player of the class knows that it has a ton of options you can use for on-demand movement. Similarly, RDM seems very mobile, but its mobility is more restricted in terms of when you can/must utilize it, and that tends to produce two very different playstyles. Then you have SMN, who is almost an aberration because you don't *technically* need to even hardcast anything at all in order to perform your DPS rotation (although playing that way will definitely result in a major DPS loss, it doesn't actually interfere with your class mechanics).

Personally, I enjoy RDM's playstyle the most.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I tend to consider all the casters to be pretty similar in movement overall, but that they represent different approaches to mobility. For example, BLM feels like a turret but a skilled player of the class knows that it has a ton of options you can use for on-demand movement. Similarly, RDM seems very mobile, but its mobility is more restricted in terms of when you can/must utilize it, and that tends to produce two very different playstyles. Then you have SMN, who is almost an aberration because you don't *technically* need to even hardcast anything at all in order to perform your DPS rotation (although playing that way will definitely result in a major DPS loss, it doesn't actually interfere with your class mechanics).

Personally, I enjoy RDM's playstyle the most.

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Yeah, that's my feeling as well. Granted, I don't do the harder content in the game but I find RDM's movement to feel good overall. There are moments that lock you in place, plus some abilities that require you to be in melee, and I enjoy having to use those limitations to play around the given mechanics of a fight. Complete freedom of movement is actually one of the reasons I don't really enjoy Ranged as much. It's nice to have All The Movement but sometimes the limitations are what makes it fun (and rewarding).

I dont think anyone is asking for complete freedom of movement (physical ranged have that and its a different can of worms), but imo the issue with RDM is that it has the illusion of movement: You can move a lot when its not actually needed and help to do small readjustments on a fight still on learning mode, but when you really gotta move for more than a couple of seconds the RDM is kinda boned unless specific circunstances where using the melee combo is an option and its avaliable on that very moment.

Every class have locked parts of the rotation so to speak but imo the RDM has reached a wall on either you concoct something new, or you just introduce "fixes" camouflaged as new skill and/or traits, and Monk went that road and we know its current state and popularity (expansion after expansion without evolving with just 1-2 new OGCD to press each XX seconds after being pruned of similar ones). I for certain im not very eager of having the very same gameplay since SB with fixes in the form of traits to issues that should have been resolved mid expansion, and things like new AOE expender after Moulinet, or Terascorch following the single target combo as new "exciting" skills

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You're describing a combo. Every combo allowance is available for 15 seconds after its prerequisite cast and is negated if one uses any other combat action. I am explicitly asking it not to be a combo, and instead be a saveable proc in the same vein as Verfire and Verstone activations, even if that proc duration may be reduced to a mere 10 seconds in compensation. (Tbf, part of that is also just because I'd really like to attach an AoE element to Verflare, Verholy, and Scorch; making those bankable would allow for some killer on-add-spawn burst.)


That is a very real concern for me, but I'd rather add new means of engagement to replace that particular contributor than necessarily fetter RDM to the rigidities that come with any single current means of difficulty. In this particular case, I'd be unwilling to sacrifice that difficulty unless there were some meaningful elemental interplay or the like to replace it, but at the same time, I want RDM to actually feel like it's actively doing RDM things more than just in the 2-6 GCDs before its melee combo and its quick reminder as to whether to hit Verflare or Verholy at that combo's end, which will likely require at least imagining RDM without that particular fetter.

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I agree with this quite a bit. RDM has this illusion of being busy and tedious however, this is really just a façade that falls apart the more you play it, and it becomes much more pronounced if you main it, or play the other casters and watch as this one suffers from not enough mechanics. What's strange to me is that SMN has a genuine identity crisis, Trances, Egis, Aetherflow, ruin 4 etc... IT has so many more mechanics baked into it's job that it's taken them a staggering amount of time converting it into a coherent job that still manages to feel rather segmented. SMN feels like it's diametrically opposed to RDM in it's design where one has way too much going on, and the other has one mechanic that is only fleshed out for single target damage while being almost incomplete in all other areas. SMN has so many moving parts that it's entire mechanic is done completely independent of ruin 3 (it's most used spell) while RDM lives and dies by a gauge that the job doesn't need because it'd be better off if the melee combo was a burst combo on a 30/60 rotation as thats how it's used anyway. I personally believe taking emphasis away from the melee combo by making it just another cooldown to manage, and repurposing the job gauge to enrich the melee experience akin to something like a Fell Cleave option that you build inbetween your burst phases and expend alongside the melee combo is a strong way of allowing the job to be fleshed out, and expanding on it. Removing the rng tied to the spells and abolishing jolt 2 (as this only exist to fix an issue the job shouldn't have) would be a step in the right direction.

One thing I'd love for RDM is also Displacement being detached from Engagement (this one getting 200 potency), and having both its damage and target requirements removed, so it could purely be used as a tactical movement cooldown.

The potency gain of merely 50 from a successful Displacement is negligible at best, among the advantage of Engagement being able to be double weaved, so it's probably the safest bet to use unless Displacement would land you somewhere you'd need to go after the melee phase - which could be totally achieved by it being just a tactical ability instead.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Displacement ... target requirements removed

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Please no! I abhor targetless backsteps. With Displacement I know exactly where I'll land based on my position relative to the boss, no matter what direction I'm facing. If I'm Displacing for the movement, I was probably already moving and therefore facing some direction other than directlyAtTheBoss before I pressed the Displacement button. If Displacement were targetless, I would have to stop, face target, Displace, then continue running. Removing the target requirement from Displacement increases the freedom at the cost of making it more difficult to use in the middle of a mechanic, and I don't think the difficulty of use is worth the unnecessary freedom.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Please no! I abhor targetless backsteps. With Displacement I know exactly where I'll land based on my position relative to the boss, no matter what direction I'm facing. If I'm Displacing for the movement, I was probably already moving and therefore facing some direction other than directlyAtTheBoss before I pressed the Displacement button. If Displacement were targetless, I would have to stop, face target, Displace, then continue running. Removing the target requirement from Displacement increases the freedom at the cost of making it more difficult to use in the middle of a mechanic, and I don't think the difficulty of use is worth the unnecessary freedom.

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I see your point... I guess is more of personal preference at that, I kind of learned how to gauge the distance based on my character's perspective and I always could see more opportunities to backflip while not at melee range.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I see your point... I guess is more of personal preference at that, I kind of learned how to gauge the distance based on my character's perspective and I always could see more opportunities to backflip while not at melee range.

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Out of curiosity, are you using legacy movement or standard movement?

As a legacy mover, very few things I do are ever based on my character's perspective. AutoFaceTarget handles all of my facings and I can move in eight directions at full speed regardless of facing or camera position, which makes dodging and attacking at the same time quite simple. However, it makes targetless actions much more difficult to aim; if I can't get the correct facing just by pressing the FaceTarget key, I can't guarantee I'm going to backflip (Elusive Jump) or dash (En Avant) in the direction I really mean to.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Out of curiosity, are you using legacy movement or standard movement?

As a legacy mover, very few things I do are ever based on my character's perspective. AutoFaceTarget handles all of my facings and I can move in eight directions at full speed regardless of facing or camera position, which makes dodging and attacking at the same time quite simple. However, it makes targetless actions much more difficult to aim; if I can't get the correct facing just by pressing the FaceTarget key, I can't guarantee I'm going to backflip (Elusive Jump) or dash (En Avant) in the direction I really mean to.

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Standard... I can't really do Legacy, no matter how I try. I usually go with my mouse to turn and move.

I suppose still having a target is not exactly what I wished for the ability, but still even if it remained, it would be a huge improvement to have it just as an on-demand backflip. The choice of adding to the end of the melee combo would still be there to get into a certain position faster, which would translate in less needing of movement.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I suppose still having a target is not exactly what I wished for the ability, but still even if it remained, it would be a huge improvement to have it just as an on-demand backflip. The choice of adding to the end of the melee combo would still be there to get into a certain position faster, which would translate in less needing of movement.

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Just to be clear, I do agree with you about decoupling Engagement and Displacement so that Displacement can be used as a purely tactical movement. I just would loathe for it to be a targetless anydirectionflip rather than a strict backflip.

When looking at changes to RDM, there's the question of what it could use, and what you're willing to lose to get it--this balance must be maintained. Sometimes this means getting rid of something that works now, in exchange for something that provides better impact later. So, how do we jolt some life into the job for EW, to embolden it without sacrificing what makes this job a scorcher now?

1- MP costs could be removed from the single target rotation, and Lucid deleted with it. Right now it only exists to create a management look around MP that feels superfluous. Removing the MP costs means that Lucid can be removed, without removing MP's role as a Verraise-limiter. AoE could be changed as well, but in dungeon pulls, Verraise MP management isn't a thing and doesn't need to be considered. In exchange, RDM has a glaring flaw in hard content--they're the most squishy job of them all, with no defensive cooldowns whatsoever that isn't Addle. This hole in their repertoire could be replaced with either making Manawall a role-ability, or by introducing a RDM-specific cooldown with a defensive element, maybe even a healing ogcd.

2- I like Displacement and I like how it rewards knowing the fight and when to use, and not use; however if there was a button that we could sacrifice to get something more fun I'd be for this one getting axed to make room. Not decoupled--axed. However, that's because in its place, you could use something else--I'm talking about Chaincast. Obviously the damage buff would be pared down, but the idea of having a cooldown you use before Verholy/Verflare, and then coming out of your burst window throwing Verthunders and Veraeroes with impunity sounds fun.

3- Another red magic spell, long cast. Call it Jolt III or call it Ardor or something else, that doesn't matter. The spell would require both Verstone and Verfire Ready, and it would eat both buffs for damage, and provide mana to compensate. If current potencies were in play, it'd be set so that it has 40 potency above Verthunder, and provide 9/9 mana--thus it'd not actually be a loss of damage from losing the procs. It'd be a spell you'd use during Chaincast to ensure procs have value, or used if you're stuck with both procs going into melee (preventing losing a proc to verholy/verflare), benefiting from any spell damage buff Chaincast provided, and used to clear procs with a swiftcast so you can maximize use of that as well.

The other two ability gains could be dedicated to the usual potency buffs/full spell upgrades and readjusting cooldown timers a bit.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

When looking at changes to RDM, there's the question of what it could use, and what you're willing to lose to get it--this balance must be maintained. Sometimes this means getting rid of something that works now, in exchange for something that provides better impact later. So, how do we jolt some life into the job for EW, to embolden it without sacrificing what makes this job a scorcher now?

SNIP

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I do like the idea of some sort of defensive ability, and given that we already have both stone and wind in our toolkit it wouldn't be too hard for them to come up with something appropriate thematically even if they did want to avoid just a general "magic" ability for some reason.

I also like the idea of a sort of chain spell or double cast ability as, again, it doesn't really surface level change what we do but does add complexity and depth. Given that, for the most part, RDM's don't have to worry about MP outside of rezzing they could tack a significant MP cost on doing this so that MP would actually become something we would have to actually consider at points. Maybe something similar to SAM where we can instant "recast" the last spell we just cast but at the cost of 5000 MP.

But, yeah, really like these ideas. I like how they add to the flavour we already have without really changing the basic play style at all. That really is my biggest hope for RDM in EW.

Edit: After some more thought on the subject of a defensive ability, I find myself again thinking of SAM and it's Third Eye ability. Instead of just a standard defensive cooldown it could be part active defense and part utility. It could have a short active window but if used in time to mitigate damage it would maybe do something like increase your lower mana colour by a small amount (or maybe restore MP if we did go with a new Big MP Spender ability as above). A sort of active defense and redirection of energy would also fit very well conceptually with our fencing and overall theming. Plus, since we're not really a very buttonsy class to begin with a more active ability like that wouldn't bloat things much.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

2- I like Displacement and I like how it rewards knowing the fight and when to use, and not use; however if there was a button that we could sacrifice to get something more fun I'd be for this one getting axed to make room. Not decoupled--axed. However, that's because in its place, you could use something else--I'm talking about Chaincast. Obviously the damage buff would be pared down, but the idea of having a cooldown you use before Verholy/Verflare, and then coming out of your burst window throwing Verthunders and Veraeroes with impunity sounds fun.
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Why not just decouple and remove the damage component? If it becomes a situational skill, it would free a spell slot, because it wouldn't be required as part of the rotation. Chaincast would also need something looked at... I think it's fine as a lost action because it's very niche content, but several insta-casts through a long period of time, you wouldn't have enough OGCDs to put between the casts. I could see it added if they, for example, turned Enchanted Reprise into an oGCD under chaincast effect, so you would have enough to keep the 'flow' of the job.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Why not just decouple and remove the damage component? If it becomes a situational skill, it would free a spell slot, because it wouldn't be required as part of the rotation. Chaincast would also need something looked at... I think it's fine as a lost action because it's very niche content, but several insta-casts through a long period of time, you wouldn't have enough OGCDs to put between the casts. I could see it added if they, for example, turned Enchanted Reprise into an oGCD under chaincast effect, so you would have enough to keep the 'flow' of the job.

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Button bloat. This is in the context of expecting that something needs to be taken out of the kit in order to make room for other, more interesting buttons. The kit doesn't really need more ogcds, necessarily, and having a manaspender turn instant might have the opposite of the intended effect of having chaincast be a rampup, that if coupled with something like Ardor, could even be used in a way that acceleration could still be used.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

without really changing the basic play style at all

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Really this is the goal. RDM is (and always has been) in a good place playfeel-wise, so I don't want to see stuff added to it for the sake of adding things. AoE is already great, stuff just melts. Adding a dot out of nowhere would disrupt the rhythm of the kit. RDM really just needs another Shadowbringers-treatment; a bit of quality of life tools to make the job play smoother, and something high impact that makes a big number appear to make the pleasure centers of the brain go brrrrrrrrrrrr.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

RDM really just needs another Shadowbringers-treatment, a bit of quality of life tools to make the job play smoother

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Tbf, RDM lucked out with just how little (and therefore non-invasive or mechanic-gutting) QoL it was given. The same period's "QoL improvements" on Monk and MCH gutted existing playstyles.

(No, I'm not including Leaden Fist or the MCH combos in that, but merely all the ways GL was sabotaged into a non-mechanic before being removed completely and what the simplification of removing ammo or Rapid Fire--only to replace it with an even more ping dependent version--cost those affected jobs.)

In XIV, at least, "QoL" applied to job mechanics sometimes has a serious threat of Monkey's Paw outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

I personally believe taking emphasis away from the melee combo by making it just another cooldown to manage, and repurposing the job gauge to enrich the melee experience akin to something like a Fell Cleave option that you build inbetween your burst phases and expend alongside the melee combo is a strong way of allowing the job to be fleshed out, and expanding on it. Removing the rng tied to the spells and abolishing jolt 2 (as this only exist to fix an issue the job shouldn't have) would be a step in the right direction.

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I can get behind this tbh. Remove the dumb RNG, make our melee combo a 30-second cooldown or whatever (the actual numbers matter less right now than the concept anyway), and give us something new and interesting to do with the job gauge. I think I'd be happy with that but we'd have to see how the actual implementation turns out.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In XIV, at least, "QoL" applied to job mechanics sometimes has a serious threat of Monkey's Paw outcomes.

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^This

Also means going back to basics as MNK in 5.0 is nearly identical to 2.0, and as for MCH, I didnt bloody ask for a culling of skills! All I ever wanted was a more seamless way to overheat and the turret to be more dynamic and 5.0 just bastardized the job to the most bare bones job in the game and I would not in a million years call SHB MCH a QOL change despite the fanfare.

back on topic, RDM did get a aoe upgrade...sort of it just feels abit boring to AOE. besides that Idk what else RDM could use without it adding too much to it

RDM Wishlist:

+ AoE melee combo! Activated by hitting Enchanted Moulinet and then two of the existing single target melee abilities (they change into aoe versions). Adjust W/B mana requirement accordingly.
+ Mana. What if we had a cd that returned mana but cost W/B mana? Interesting trade off for rough times.

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Originally Posted by Daws

+ Mana. What if we had a cd that returned mana but cost W/B mana? Interesting trade off for rough times.

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I'm assuming you mean an Ability that converts white and black mana to MP.

What rough times though? The only time this would be used is to get more MP after casting three or four raises, and DPSwise you would be better off just spending your mana on a redoublement combo while you wait for passive MP refresh and for Dreaming to cool down. And if you wanted to use that MP on even more raises instead, this would bring up major balance issues--to say nothing of why didn't you just reset the fight long ago?

I don't see this action being anything but an illusion of utility.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

^This

Also means going back to basics as MNK in 5.0 is nearly identical to 2.0, and as for MCH, I didnt bloody ask for a culling of skills! All I ever wanted was a more seamless way to overheat and the turret to be more dynamic and 5.0 just bastardized the job to the most bare bones job in the game and I would not in a million years call SHB MCH a QOL change despite the fanfare.

back on topic, RDM did get a aoe upgrade...sort of it just feels abit boring to AOE. besides that Idk what else RDM could use without it adding too much to it

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The saddest part is when you can actually have both more depth/nuance and QoL, if a modicum of creativity had just been applied. Consider RDM AoE, for instance.

Consider even the absolute most barebone way RDM AoE could have been applied:

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Scatter
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 140 to target and all enemies nearby it.
Additional Effect: Increases both Black Mana and White Mana by 3.

If Dualcast, Scatter instead duplicates the prior cast, striking the target at all enemies nearby.

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What would that mean, then (tuning aside)?

1. You could Scatter-Scatter, as before, for 6|6 Mana and 280n potency.
2. You could Scatter-Veraero or Scatter-Verthunder, as before, for 3|14 or 14|3 Mana and 140n + 370 potency and chance of Verfire/Verstone procs.
3. You could, newly, Verfire-Scatter for 3|12 Mana and 450n potency or Verstone-Scatter for 12|3 Mana and 450n potency.
4. You could, newly, hardcast/Swiftcast Veraero-Scatter or Verthunder-Scatter for 14|3 or 3|14 Mana and 510n potency and chance of Verfire/Verstone procs.

1 button in total required for non-Mana-spending AoE, but now you have a significant AoE damage increase from procs generated and more reason, situationally, to hardcast.

But no, instead we needed to use 3 buttons that are not cohesive with the procs system, just to give the illusion of greater element-play.

would love to

a way to combine spells would be cool

combine fire with aero to create a fire tornado for example

or fire thunder for a thunderstrike that burns the target

verstone with fire , toss a magma boulder



-Corps-a-corps to a friendly player (stealing that from blm )


verblizzard , encage rdm on ice and inmune to dmg for 3s ? OP :p

ok , verblizzard encase the enemy in a block of ice (Stuned for X seconds) , caster with stun OP!

verwater , creates a pool of water that let u choose a direction for pushback (think leviathan or old WHM water spell ) , can be used by anyone on the pt (CLICK to avoid trolling) a stream of water push u into that selected direction !

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But no, instead we needed to use 3 buttons that are not cohesive with the procs system, just to give the illusion of greater element-play.

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The current AoE rotation tries to illude a "greater element-play"? I'd argue it doesn't even come close to even being an illusion. Call it for what it is: a reverse single target rotation but aoe form.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Consider even the absolute most barebone way RDM AoE could have been applied:

What would that mean, then (tuning aside)?

1. You could Scatter-Scatter, as before, for 6|6 Mana and 280n potency.
2. You could Scatter-Veraero or Scatter-Verthunder, as before, for 3|14 or 14|3 Mana and 140n + 370 potency and chance of Verfire/Verstone procs.
3. You could, newly, Verfire-Scatter for 3|12 Mana and 450n potency or Verstone-Scatter for 12|3 Mana and 450n potency.
4. You could, newly, hardcast/Swiftcast Veraero-Scatter or Verthunder-Scatter for 14|3 or 3|14 Mana and 510n potency and chance of Verfire/Verstone procs.

1 button in total required for non-Mana-spending AoE, but now you have a significant AoE damage increase from procs generated and more reason, situationally, to hardcast.

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I'd even add Tether in. Tether>Scatter/Impact>other spell. I just want Tether back. I miss its animation and wish it was used as an aoe of some sort instead of being culled.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

I'd even add Tether in. Tether>Scatter/Impact>other spell. I just want Tether back. I miss its animation and wish it was used as an aoe of some sort instead of being culled.

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Tether kind of makes me wish we had DoTs on certain skills (say, Fire and Wind), which Tether could then draw into a focus target or whatnot, since that's what Tether's animation reminded me of (iirc). Also, something something the line animation on Corps-a-corps feels like it could have interaction, etc.

Of course, for that not to feel like a one-off gimmick, that'd need some further spell-combo context, like being able to expand Verfire's DoT to nearby enemies with an immediately-following Veraero or being able to explode a Verstone mid-animation with an immediately-following Verthunder, etc., etc...

I would just like them to knock 5 seconds off the recast timers of the dash and jump back. The amount of times i've hit 80/80 and they still have 1 or 2 seconds cool down is really high.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I would just like them to knock 5 seconds off the recast timers of the dash and jump back. The amount of times i've hit 80/80 and they still have 1 or 2 seconds cool down is really high.

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Park in melee range by default. Don't be out of melee range except to handle specific mechanics.

Part of high level RDM is when you get to 81|80 with Displacement still 2s out deciding if you should start your combo and Engage immediately on cooldown, or if you can manage a Swiftcast Verslowspell-Displacement Verfastspell-Verslowspell-CorpsACorps before starting your combo.

That timespan 2-3 GCDs before reaching 81|80 up to 2-3 GCDs after reaching it is when we make the only real decisions of consequence. The rest of the job is so easy anyone can fumble through it.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

That timespan 2-3 GCDs before reaching 81|80 up to 2-3 GCDs after reaching it is when we make the only real decisions of consequence.

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Guys, please tell me that seems an issue to you as well.

I know the other jobs don't set a high bar, either, but... really now.

I want "VerEsuna" or whatever. Healers really hate pressing Esuna and I don't mind doing it for them. I'm like half-joking. Ha.

Wouldn't mind upgraded versions of Veraero II and Verthunder II in the same way Verholy and Verflare work. Maybe a new sword AoE for a one-two combo into it. The idea would be to Veraero II/Verthunder II > Impact > maybe until like 60 mana > Enchanted Moulinet > Enchanted [new combo finisher] > VerHoly II / VerFlare II. Maybe that's a bit too samey relative to the single-target rotation. I personally don't like spamming Enchanted Moulinet to spend mana and would welcome any change to that.

I think it would make make Manafication more interesting/fun for me, too. I dislike using Manafication in AoE situations because the end result of that is really just more Enchanted Moulinets. With an actual AoE combo, its function in AoE would be similar in that you would use it to either get to the "enchanted" part of the AoE more quickly or to keep the chain going. Similar end results, just more fun since it wouldn't mean more Enchanted Moulinets but rather an extra VerHoly II or VerFlare II.

I would also like Acceleration to be useful in AoE. I'm not sure how without making it kind of boring. But, just a slight increase to mana gain on Veraero II and Verthunder II would be fine. I don't want AoE versions of Verstone or Verfire. I'm sure there is a more creative answer to this.

So! One new ability in the new AoE sword combo, upgraded versions of Veraero II and Verthunder II that don't take up space on the hotbar, and some tweaks to numbers and existing abilities to accommodate. And, maybe VerEsuna...

Edit: I just want anything besides "Spam Enchanted Moulinet 5 times". The joke towards healers aside, I really like RDM's non-DPS abilities. VerEsuna would just be a minor increase to that and be in the same vein as Vercure. Something you pretty much never use, but feels nice when it works.

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Originally Posted by SkyCake

I want "VerEsuna" or whatever. Healers really hate pressing Esuna and I don't mind doing it for them. I'm like half-joking. Ha.

Wouldn't mind upgraded versions of Veraero II and Verthunder II in the same way Verholy and Verflare work. Maybe a new sword AoE for a one-two combo into it. The idea would be to Veraero II/Verthunder II > Impact > maybe until like 60 mana > Enchanted Moulinet > Enchanted [new combo finisher] > VerHoly II / VerFlare II. Maybe that's a bit too samey relative to the single-target rotation. I personally don't like spamming Enchanted Moulinet to spend mana and would welcome any change to that.

I think it would make make Manafication more interesting/fun for me, too. I dislike using Manafication in AoE situations because the end result of that is really just more Enchanted Moulinets. With an actual AoE combo, its function in AoE would be similar in that you would use it to either get to the "enchanted" part of the AoE more quickly or to keep the chain going. Similar end results, just more fun since it wouldn't mean more Enchanted Moulinets but rather an extra VerHoly II or VerFlare II.

I would also like Acceleration to be useful in AoE. I'm not sure how without making it kind of boring. But, just a slight increase to mana gain on Veraero II and Verthunder II would be fine. I don't want AoE versions of Verstone or Verfire. I'm sure there is a more creative answer to this.

So! One new ability in the new AoE sword combo, upgraded versions of Veraero II and Verthunder II that don't take up space on the hotbar, and some tweaks to numbers and existing abilities to accommodate. And, maybe VerEsuna...

Edit: I just want anything besides "Spam Enchanted Moulinet 5 times". The joke towards healers aside, I really like RDM's non-DPS abilities. VerEsuna would just be a minor increase to that and be in the same vein as Vercure. Something you pretty much never use, but feels nice when it works.

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The thing with everything you suggested also fall into one separate thing to be addressed: game mechanics;

VerEsuna sounds cool... but then, why bother with it when we rarely have something to dispel as healers to begin with? Bard already got an Esuna of their own but it's a button that I rarely press in regular content.

Complexity to the AoE rotation is something I vouched before... but then a player's comment made me realize something: What exactly we'll be using complex AoE rotations for? An upgrade - as in an Endwalker feature - is due to levels 81-90, but then 4-man content is already a joke as it is. 8-mans rarely see any meaningful usage of aoe... Maybe the Deep Dungeon will count?

Right now, I suppose Save the Queen instances is a good place for AoE, but then there are always stronger options with Lost Actions and other gimmicks.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

The thing with everything you suggested also fall into one separate thing to be addressed: game mechanics;

VerEsuna sounds cool... but then, why bother with it when we rarely have something to dispel as healers to begin with? Bard already got an Esuna of their own but it's a button that I rarely press in regular content.

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Like I mentioned with Vercure. It's almost never useful, but I enjoy when it is. Would be the same for VerEsuna. It's also why I said I was "half-joking".

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Complexity to the AoE rotation is something I vouched before... but then a player's comment made me realize something: What exactly we'll be using complex AoE rotations for? An upgrade - as in an Endwalker feature - is due to levels 81-90, but then 4-man content is already a joke as it is. 8-mans rarely see any meaningful usage of aoe... Maybe the Deep Dungeon will count?

Right now, I suppose Save the Queen instances is a good place for AoE, but then there are always stronger options with Lost Actions and other gimmicks.

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Because I thought it would be more fun than spamming Enchanted Moulinet. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I can get behind this tbh. Remove the dumb RNG, make our melee combo a 30-second cooldown or whatever (the actual numbers matter less right now than the concept anyway), and give us something new and interesting to do with the job gauge. I think I'd be happy with that but we'd have to see how the actual implementation turns out.

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Or, play one of the millions of jobs without RNG if you want a job without RNG. Some of us actually like proc-based casting and the variance that it lends to a kit and the play. Making a simple class even more dumbed down is not a path to making it better for everyone.

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Originally Posted by SkyCake

Like I mentioned with Vercure. It's almost never useful, but I enjoy when it is. Would be the same for VerEsuna. It's also why I said I was "half-joking".

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How many times did you use Erase in SB? Be honest.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Or, play one of the millions of jobs without RNG if you want a job without RNG. Some of us actually like proc-based casting and the variance that it lends to a kit and the play. Making a simple class even more dumbed down is not a path to making it better for everyone.

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RNG procs for verfire and verstone do not add anything worthy of note to the job, and in any case, I was a RDM fan before FFXIV was even a concept in anyone's mind so no thank you I will play the job I like while advocating for changes I want. You're welcome to deal with it however you like, but that's not changing.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

RNG procs for verfire and verstone do not add anything worthy of note to the job, and in any case, I was a RDM fan before FFXIV was even a concept in anyone's mind so no thank you I will play the job I like while advocating for changes I want. You're welcome to deal with it however you like, but that's not changing.

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Verfire and Verstone procs give you variance on when exactly your melee phases can occur in a fight, which actually add depth to high-end play, as while you can plan to have your melee phase 'around' certain points in a given fight, you still have to adjust on the fly, especially given the game's high reliance on positional play.

As well, it's too integral to the job to simply remove. The Balance Gauge is based entirely around procs existing--if you remove the procs, you no longer need the gauge to track two different numbers or manage that. So you reduce that down to one resource instead. So Verstone and Verfire have no reason to exist any more. Just Jolt.

And you don't really need Verthunder and Veraero, you can just replace them both with on spell--Big Jolt.

So now your rotation is just Jolt>Big Jolt/Jolt>Big Jolt.

But yeah, procs 'add nothing.'

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Verfire and Verstone procs give you variance on when exactly your melee phases can occur in a fight, which actually add depth to high-end play, as while you can plan to have your melee phase 'around' certain points in a given fight, you still have to adjust on the fly, especially given the game's high reliance on positional play.

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What you're describing is not really depth, or anything, really. What you're describing is purely a consequence of the decision the devs actively made to inject RNG into the rotation in order to arbitrarily force the player to use jolt sometimes. Heck, you still need to do much of the same stuff with or without the 50% proc chance on fire/stone. Plus there are so many ways around it that it's just silly and pointless to even try to defend the RNG at all at this point.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

As well, it's too integral to the job to simply remove. The Balance Gauge is based entirely around procs existing--if you remove the procs, you no longer need the gauge to track two different numbers or manage that. So you reduce that down to one resource instead. So Verstone and Verfire have no reason to exist any more. Just Jolt. And you don't really need Verthunder and Veraero, you can just replace them both with on spell--Big Jolt.

So now your rotation is just Jolt>Big Jolt/Jolt>Big Jolt.

But yeah, procs 'add nothing.'

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Well this is simply not true. I mean, the procs have absolutely nothing to do with the existence of the job gauge, and the job gauge would operate just fine without the RNG. Furthermore, it's not fire and stone that would be left out of an RNG-less rotation, it is jolt.

I think it's pretty disingenuous of you to suggest that the only option upon removing the pointless RNG is to just have jolt and big jolt. Disingenuous, and also kind of dumb. Fire is for one side of the gauge, stone is for the other. That's how the gauge works, it has nothing to do with RNG. You could remove the RNG and buff Jolt to match the potency of fire/stone and then you would have fire for one, stone for the other, and jolt for smaller amounts of both. Nothing about this setup requires the use of RNG.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I mean, the procs have absolutely nothing to do with the existence of the job gauge, and the job gauge would operate just fine without the RNG.

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To borrow your words...

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Well this is simply not true.

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Yes, removing the RNG would remove Jolt as a button-press, but it would also remove Black and White mana as anything more than remembering whether you hit most recently hit Button Type A or Button Type B.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, removing the RNG would remove Jolt as a button-press, but it would also remove Black and White mana as anything more than remembering whether you hit most recently hit Button Type A or Button Type B.

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Black and White Mana essentially are not much more than that already. Some of you seem to believe the modest amounts of RNG in this job's toolkit are more significant than they actually are.

Here's the bottom line: The Job gauge operates just fine with or without RNG. Removing RNG won't suddenly change the fact that fire gives you one side and stone gives you the other. That is the foundation of the balance gauge, not RNG. I am very confused why there are soooo many people here who mistakenly believe RNG is necessary for the balance gauge.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Black and White Mana essentially are not much more than that already.

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"Well, a half a real mechanic isn't much, so let's remove it altogether. Surely there are no options whatsoever in the opposite direction."

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Some of you seem to believe the modest amounts of RNG in this job's toolkit are more significant than they actually are.

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I believe it doesn't amount to much. I also don't think RNG is the godsend some others may imply. But I disagree that the job gauge, which has only faint backing mechanics at present, would do as well with absolutely no (or only a pretense of) backing mechanics.

If you give me an a better alternative by which to instill depth into RDM, I'd be quick to follow up on it and likely promote it. If your only suggested change is to sweep away what little is present, I will of course challenge that.