Lets stop fighting SE and work with them. What are your ideas?

The problem I see here...

SE seem to be trying to enforce their vision of tanking on the playerbase.
This vision appears contrary to the Meta.


The Meta is organically developed based on the mechanics and design.
If the Meta is to be changed, the mechanics and design need to be adjusted to bring about the change that is desired.

Trying to force a change is just going to see pushback from the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

The problem I see here...

SE seem to be trying to enforce their vision of tanking on the playerbase.
This vision appears contrary to the Meta.


The Meta is organically developed based on the mechanics and design.
If the Meta is to be changed, the mechanics and design need to be adjusted to bring about the change that is desired.

Trying to force a change is just going to see pushback from the playerbase.

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I disagree. Tanking in this game has been a bit unique so far, which is what drew me to it.

Now we're in 4.0 and they are changing to suit the vocal minority, and the lower end of the playerbase at that. The people that said tanking was so hard, they wanted to not have to do damage at the same time. I guess this new tanking will bore the rest of us to moving on.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

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I agree. as i have mentioned before in this post MOST of our kit is designed around doing extra damage, but then they change how the stats work. it's like they're trying to force a playstyle change without going about it 100%, its like putting an egg in a bowl of water and expecting it to boil on its own.
SE either needs to do one of the following:
1. Embrace the DPS tank meta (as they were designed, looking at you fell cleave)
2. A COMPLETE redesign of all the tanks in the game, how enmity works, and every fight post-lvl 50.

Obviously the 2nd option is out of the question however due to how much time and money that would cost. I mean really after 50 like 80% of skills you get are based around doing damage on all the tanks, PLD gets Goring blade, royal authority, holy spirit. WAR gets Deliverance and all its included skills and a few other attacks. DRK gets ONE shield and several ways of increasing DPS in and out of tank stance. Notice how there isn't a single enmity based ability there, and very very few defensive cooldowns; post-50 tanks have been DESIGNED to do damage, its a simple fact and SE reverting the damage calculations to STR while locking us out of the accessories is as i mentioned only going half way in regards to a forced meta.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

I agree. as i have mentioned before in this post MOST of our kit is designed around doing extra damage, but then they change how the stats work. it's like they're trying to force a playstyle change without going about it 100%, its like putting an egg in a bowl of water and expecting it to boil on its own.

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I think the problem is that raids and trials have at least 2 tanks. Which I mainly see as a result of SE's design, aka uninteresting tank swap mechanics and passive mitigation (which means optimally both tanks should utilize their CDs). So generally one tank is basically another DPS for the majority of the fight.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

post-50 tanks have been DESIGNED to do damage

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Post-50 tanks have been designed to do what they lack, not to do damage.
WAR was given a DPS stance because, even without stance dancing, there are long parts where your tank stance is not needed, like when you're the OT. WAR and PLD also lacked native healing capacities, so they were given one. PLD only had an enmity combo, which made off tanking and tank swapping awkward, so they were given new combos, etc...

You cannot claim that having almost no new defensive CD mean they were designed to do damage. After all, NIN didn't receive any new jutsu in HW, are they meant to not use them ? SMN didn't receive any new egi, are they designed to ignore them ?

If only SE actually communicated with their players...

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

If only SE actually communicated with their players...

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They are trying too, we just have too many questions lol

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4263595

This answer though, it can be pretty conflicting. On one hand they boost the enmity generated from the enmity combo openers, to help "newer tanks with aggro"(more dps stance uptime.)
On the other hand Vitality is definitely not going to affect tank performance, or scale their AP/performance with it.
They dont want tanks to have inflated HP
They dont want healers to be burdened with tanks having lower HP (from using Str accessories.)
They dont want tanks to not have scaling enmity or difficulty holding aggro
They dont want tank damage to increase or scale with other jobs damage stats(no Str on right hand side)

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

1. Embrace the DPS tank meta (as they were designed, looking at you fell cleave)

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The additions we saw with Heavensward were not there to push for a DPS meta. They were made to round out rotations & combo chains, add more buttons to push over the course of a fight, or complete systems that were incomplete during ARR.

HW gave PLD two combo finishers plus raid utility. DRK got a gap-closer, a damage zone, self heals and the weirdness that is Carve & Spit. WAR got a DPS stance, which was sorely needed all through ARR whenever the WAR was not main tanking, along with skills to work with that stance; I could argue that the devs "wasted" 4 of the 5 HW ability slots introducing something that should have been part of WAR since it was unlocked at lv30 (you may have seen me saying this before, but Deliverance should be a lv30 skill, not lv52).

Nothing in the design says "DPS meta". It did increase damage options for some of the jobs (PLD and DRK) while completing what were incomplete systems for others (WAR), but the lunacy we saw with triple fel cleaves and other nonsense like tanking in Sword Oath/Deliverance/non-Grit was clearly unintended. Now, you could ask why they didn't add more cooldowns, but that creates problems as well (surplus of defensive cooldowns would not only render tank stances even more worthless than they were to the DPS-only crowd, but make single-tank strats even easier to carry out). You could say that they could have added the abilities to round out the rotations in addition to more defensive mechanics, but adding more than 5 abilities means they had to break their rule of every class having the same number of skills. On top of going against their intent to strictly build on what was already there (the only exception to this was BRD, and we all know how that turned out).

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2. A COMPLETE redesign of all the tanks in the game, how enmity works, and every fight post-lvl 50.

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Funnily enough, enmity would not need as much work as you think. The main enmity-related issue is that stances enter the game relatively late instead of being one of the key abilities you gain before you're even allowed to queue for your first dungeon. And because stances enter the game as late as they do, the devs opted to give tanks means to at least passably hold aggro between lv15-30.

It doesn't look like a big deal on paper, but this is one of the reasons some players have been able to circumvent one of the uses for tank stances: aggro generation. Your aggro generation does not become non-existent when you drop Shield Oath/Defiance/Grit. Instead, it is diminished to levels that were meant to be used in pre-30 content. Problem is, aggro scales with damage, and damage increases with level/stats/weapons.

Mitigation is circumvented between cooldowns, how powerful healers are and how most mobs don't constantly hit hard, which exacerbates the issue. Those are the things that would need more work; much more work than enmity would.

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PLD gets Goring blade, royal authority, holy spirit.

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Goring Blade and RA are basically answers to the complaints that all PLD could do at 50 was Rage of Halone. Holy Spirit is pretty much designed in a way that you benefit from being in Shield Oath due to how it generates 20 Oath Gauge.

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WAR gets Deliverance and all its included skills and a few other attacks.

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52-60 was them giving WAR something it should have had for off-tanking through all of ARR. The only real additions the job got were from 62-70, one of which is another counterpart skill (Inner Release), a gap-closer, a GCD filler that consumes gauge and a status removal ability.

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DRK gets ONE shield and several ways of increasing DPS in and out of tank stance.

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A shield that can be used every 15 seconds, skills that consume blood gauge to not render it useless, and Delirium.

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Notice how there isn't a single enmity based ability there, and very very few defensive cooldowns;

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The entirety of enmity generation is tied to the single enmity combo every tank has, so you can't really add skills with enmity without them being complete replacements to enmity combos and Flash/Unleash/Overpower. You also can't give too much in the way of defensive cooldowns. Some would even say we have too many cooldowns as it is.

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post-50 tanks have been DESIGNED to do damage,

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More like they were given things to do beyond spamming Halone/Power Slash/Butcher's Block. That's VERY different from being designed to do damage. As a PLD, it simply means I can do things beyond Halone by keeping Goring Blade's debuff active and sneaking in as many RA's as I can while keeping an eye on aggro. And I don't need to drop Shield Oath for that.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

On one hand they boost the enmity generated from the enmity combo openers, to help "newer tanks with aggro"(more dps stance uptime.)

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They didn't do that for more DPS stance uptime. Every skill that has its enmity boosted is a low level skill. They want to help enmity management for tanks that don't have their tank stance yet.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They didn't do that for more DPS stance uptime. Every skill that has its enmity boosted is a low level skill. They want to help enmity management for tanks that don't have their tank stance yet.

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Make tank stances level 15, lock all skill enmity modifiers behind tank stance, make DPS stances level 30, and otherwise shuffle the skills around if needed. Something like that maybe?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They didn't do that for more DPS stance uptime. Every skill that has its enmity boosted is a low level skill. They want to help enmity management for tanks that don't have their tank stance yet.

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That wasnt their intention, no, but it did exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Make tank stances level 15, lock all skill enmity modifiers behind tank stance, make DPS stances level 30, and otherwise shuffle the skills around if needed. Something like that maybe?

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This would do the trick instantly.
People would still attempt to dance, but itd be extremely challenging and risky.
Even if enmity scaled with AP(damage really) it wouldnt be modified outside of Tank Stance

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Originally Posted by Falar

I disagree. Tanking in this game has been a bit unique so far, which is what drew me to it.

Now we're in 4.0 and they are changing to suit the vocal minority, and the lower end of the playerbase at that. The people that said tanking was so hard, they wanted to not have to do damage at the same time. I guess this new tanking will bore the rest of us to moving on.

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And I disagree with you.
If they designed the tanks around the lower end of the playerbase as you say, you know those tanks that always did less damage then a dps, would they really have nerfed our dps? Of course not, that would not make any sense at all. A more plausible reason for nerfing our dps has to do with how to many of us did more damage then a lot of the dps players in a lot of the content given.

I rather agree with the one you disagree with.
SE have a vision, they want tanks to tank in tank stance and mitigate damage, yet they design their fights so that even tanks who does nothing beside activating their tankstance can complete them, this in turn leads to players who know how to use their def cooldowns tanking in dps stance as they know how to mitigate that damage without using tankstance.
But if SE are going to not do this halfheartedly then they also need to made it so that when your tanking you have to use tankstance and def cooldowns in order to manage, this will of course make some content impossible for the "tankstance is enough I don't need no cooldowns" crew and they would most likely complain, complains to which I would say: If you after getting to lvl70 still do not know how to use a def cooldown then now is the time to learn to do something you should already be able to do.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

That wasnt their intention, no, but it did exactly that.

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Yes, it was :

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■4.01 Adjustments■
Ahead of 4.05, we will be making enmity-related adjustments for the three tank jobs. In light of the large amount of feedback we have received, we will boost the effect of enmity-generating combos and AOEs in order to make enmity management more predictable during the lower levels and while leveling.

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The "while leveling" refers to dungeons where you'll probably end with severals mob on you at the same time, that's why they increased the enmity for Flash, Overpower and Unleash. And we all know that DPS stance uptime is vital for sack pulls, right ? And I suppose a SwO PLD using Flash does more damage than a ShO PLD using Total Eclipse too, thanks to its DPS stance, right ?

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Make tank stances level 15, lock all skill enmity modifiers behind tank stance, make DPS stances level 30, and otherwise shuffle the skills around if needed. Something like that maybe?

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Frankly, since classes lose more and more impact, they could simply do that, or even give the stance at level 10 for the first guildhest. If they want to enforce tanking in tank stance, they could also go as far as completely removing the enmity combos, since people tend to avoid them as much as possible anyway. 2 combos for PLD, 2 for WAR and a customizable one for DRK, there you go.

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

SE have a vision, they want tanks to tank in tank stance and mitigate damage, yet they design their fights so that even tanks who does nothing beside activating their tankstance can complete them, this in turn leads to players who know how to use their def cooldowns tanking in dps stance as they know how to mitigate that damage without using tankstance.

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That's why I can't wait to see how Omega Savage will be. If it uses really tight HP checks, then SE's vision on the meta will be clear. And since it's Savage content, people can't reply that "They won't do that because casuals wouldn't be able to clear it..."

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Frankly, since classes lose more and more impact, they could simply do that, or even give the stance at level 10 for the first guildhest. If they want to enforce tanking in tank stance, they could also go as far as completely removing the enmity combos, since people tend to avoid them as much as possible anyway. 2 combos for PLD, 2 for WAR and a customizable one for DRK, there you go.

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You don't even need to go that far. A GLA could have a damage combo of Fast Blade => Savage Blade => Rage of Halone, which after unlocking Shield Oath becomes an enmity combo. In turn, a new damage combo (that deals higher damage) comes in to fill that gap, making gameplay about flowing between the enmity combo to hold the mob's attention and using a higher damage combo to deal a bit of extra damage.

The same could be done for WAR and DRK (DRK already does this, but it is heavily tied to Dark Arts).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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you're missing my point here. in a few other MMOs i have played tanks were made fun because you had to CONSTANTLY 24/7 maintain agro and actually MANAGE it, and also use cooldowns efficiently to mitigate damage ALL the time. In FF14 you only need to really do 1-2 agro combos at the start and maybe another 1-2 throught the fight, this is not hard agro management and as for cooldowns? you only really need them for tank busters.
So basically in FF14 the "tanking" aspect is extremely easy and so the added layer of complexity is doing extra damage; THAT is what makes tanking "fun" in this game, its not the struggle for agro management or giving your healer a high five because you survived auto attacks that are hitting you for 80% of your health, its about doing damage and shrugging off tank busters, why do you think people use STR accessories? because its only tank busters you have to worry about.


Bottom line is that if they dont fix the current way tanks are tanking will NOT be fun anymore which will cause many tanks to switch to other classes (as thats very easy to do in this game because of the armory system) which will in turn drastically hurt game health. this is why they either need to embrace the dps tank meta or completely change how tanks play.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Bottom line is that if they dont fix the current way tanks are tanking will NOT be fun anymore which will cause many tanks to switch to other classes (as thats very easy to do in this game because of the armory system) which will in turn drastically hurt game health. this is why they either need to embrace the dps tank meta or completely change how tanks play.

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I'd argue it's not fun already. Let's hope SE is reading our feedback and is aware their tanking design is flawed.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

f I watched Netflix while tanking in TERA, I would get wrecked as a tank.

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To be fair, TERA's gameplay mechanics are very different from FFXIV (I left tera at around 2013). The mechanics of a tera warrior are way more punishing than an FFXIV warrior, if you pay minimal attention to the encounter. Lots of timing and quick reflexes is required for them, but less so for eorzean warriors.

I enjoy being a tank that doesn't hit like a wet noodle.
It is fun to find the balance between survivability, emity needs and damage output during a battle situation. Tanks are designed with those 3 aspects (just look at what they are allowed to do, like dropping tank stance) but does FF14 do this well enough?

How the individual tank jobs feel play are separate discussions.


Tanking is not hard even before enmity boost, was the boost needed, maybe, like for the lower levels as was stated. It is setting a mark between easy and challenging. Easy can be boring and challenging can make people cry. Where does the mark land?

So much debate going on for how things should be tweaked but does it matter? It just what number does what and from where.
How the role plays should be more important.
This should be achievable;
1. A low skilled player can tank.
2. Players that take it to the next level are able to. This means assessing one's battle situation. Using higher damaging attacks instead of enmity ones. Increasing dmg but lowers survivability(drop tank stance etc). Use defensive abilities as needed.
Perhaps #2 just needs to be better tuned.

Tanks should be able to deal good damage but not as much as a correctly played dps job. I read most people like this and agree, why cant it just be that way.

Fixes?
Fending Accessory has vit. We meld str, that is ok.
Make tenacity have better scaling, why is this hard?
We have too much hp? savage isn't out yet. maybe future mobs are more damaging.
Make str provide more attack power in the calculations to make up from the change of taking it away from vitality. This keeps damage numbers and defense numbers separate and brings tanks closer to prior damage output. Str on left side gear increases already so scaling with higher gear and keeping pace with dps stays intact.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

To be fair, TERA's gameplay mechanics are very different from FFXIV (I left tera at around 2013). The mechanics of a tera warrior are way more punishing than an FFXIV warrior, if you pay minimal attention to the encounter. Lots of timing and quick reflexes is required for them, but less so for eorzean warriors.

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That's my entire point. In TERA you needed to pay attention or you would get punished hard. Here it's like meh you make a mistake the healer would just fix it no problem. You shouldn't be able to watch Netflix while playing, because imo that defeats the whole purpose of playing a game (having fun and being engaged).

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[21:24](...) ik how the fight works tho SMN :D
[21:24](SMN) That isn't about the fight, it's about the class lol.
[21:24](Tank) me not paying attention doesnt have to do with the class
[21:25](SMN) You completely missed the point.
[21:25](Me) the SAM isn't doing as much damage since you're turning a ton
[21:25](Tank) and i said mb for moving
[21:25](Tank) nbut im not paying attention
[21:26](Tank) i move alot when i tank in every game iincluding this since ARR
[21:26](Tank) idk what to tell yall

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And this is also why tanking needs to be more punishing.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

you're missing my point here. in a few other MMOs i have played tanks were made fun because you had to CONSTANTLY 24/7 maintain agro and actually MANAGE it

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yeah, nah
fighting party for aggro can go die I have played that garbage in the old WoW days. I have an idea of fun and trying to keep some invisible number up high enough to avoid the mob running off is not part of my class fantasy. It can go wherever grindy mmos and no group finding tool MMOs go.
Even DPS that think "tanks should focus on tanking" don't actually want this as soon as they get rekt from pulling aggro and dying, not to mention waiting even longer for queues

holding aggro as a mechanic was always a bad design idea left over from grindy mmo days until blizzard got rid of it and if you ask me they still took way too long
even enmity combos are pushing it for me
put it in the trash

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

yeah, nah
fighting party for aggro can go die I have played that garbage in the old WoW days. I have an idea of fun and trying to keep some invisible number up high enough to avoid the mob running off is not part of my class fantasy. It can go wherever grindy mmos and no group finding tool MMOs go.
Even DPS that think "tanks should focus on tanking" don't actually want this as soon as they get rekt from pulling aggro and dying, not to mention waiting even longer for queues

holding aggro as a mechanic was always a bad design idea left over from grindy mmo days until blizzard got rid of it and if you ask me they still took way too long
even enmity combos are pushing it for me
put it in the trash

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Eh, I personally liked it in TERA but holding aggro required optimizing DPS. None of this 1-2-3 enmity combo crap. To me it was a challenge. How much power and crit can I stack on my gear and not lose aggro. Criticals were really amazing for holding aggro since they would do 5x versus non-crit damage as a tank (it's even more now). The challenge was really three-fold. Holding aggro, maximizing DPS and completely mitigating damage. And keeping MP up. Them tryhard DPS OP.

It's pretty much the last thing I had fun doing in TERA after they killed competitive PvP.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

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I don't mind "catching" adds that spawned or got pulled, tank swaps and the like. After the initial control of aggro is established though, I really don't think it should be something tanks should have to worry with, unless you are just sitting there not even pressing buttons. Aggro is a very meta mechanic, detached from the actual fantasy of fighting monsters. What is it about the emnity combo that makes a mob want to stay hitting me as opposed to the DPS combo where I am actually hurting it more?

The fact that a tank might have it "too easy" after gaining aggro/hate is not a problem in my eyes. lf a tank is just sitting there halfheartedly not doing much damage? Big deal. We all know DPS get carried every day in casual content, they don't even have to be alive to win. Half of them can't even limit break but heaven forbid tank jobs also be carryable. You still have to be alive to win which is more than I can say for those DPS at the bottom of Titan's pit.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

After the initial control of aggro is established though, I really don't think it should be something tanks should have to worry with, unless you are just sitting there not even pressing buttons.

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Personally, I'd like enmity to be more challenging than that. But, to make up for that, DPS should do a lot more damage. The idea would be that the DPS leeway would be tied to the ability of tanks to have a proper "enmity rotation".

EDITED for idea :
What they could also make is reward us for high aggro generation. I've thought of a debuff I've called "Off-gard". The idea would be that any party member below your enmity would have increased critical rate against your target, as if the monster was so focused on you that it forgot other members. And the effect would increase with the gap in enmity. It would also give a little push to freshly resurrected DPS.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

holding aggro as a mechanic was always a bad design idea left over from grindy mmo days until blizzard got rid of it and if you ask me they still took way too long

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Blizzard never got rid of aggro holding. They just adjusted the numbers to weaken threat coefficients but increased damage dealt by skills. The result is tank players seeing bigger numbers but overall aggro generation staying relatively the same. In simple terms, your Devastates hit for bigger numbers but generate the same threat as when they dealt piddly damage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Personally, I'd like enmity to be more challenging than that. But, to make up for that, DPS should do a lot more damage. The idea would be that the DPS leeway would be tied to the ability of tanks to have a proper "enmity rotation".

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Personally I wouldn't like it if tank dps gets even more reduced relative to dps jobs. It's already a pain in pug groups when I play tanks and the dps don't perform well, but at least for now I can put on slaying accs and stay as much in dps stance as I can to make up a bit for it. That's probably the main reason why I like tanking with people that I know, but absolutely prefer playing as dps with pugs since it's easier to speed up runs or carry low dps groups.

Even during creator savage a skilled dps player would do 30-40% more dps than a skilled tank (looking at 95% percentile data on fflogs pre echo), I think that's far enough.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

It's already a pain in pug groups when I play tanks and the dps don't perform well

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That's different. Maybe I should have phrased it differently, but I think DPS should have a much higher ceilling. If they don't perform well, they'll do low damage, ok. But, if they're really good, their damage (and enmity) could skyrocket, as long as the tank is able to keep the boss off them.
For me, it would feel very rewarding as a DPS to be able to go to medievial because my tank can secure enmity no matter what, and rewarding as a tank to see my DPS express its full potential thanks to me.

And fights wouldn't be scaled on that top ceilling. So, with realy good players, you'd see more and more skipping mechanics which is, in my opinion, a far better mentality to reward good players than hard DPS checks that punish bad ones.

Yeah and I still think 30-40% more dps than tanks would be enough for dps jobs that have raid dps utilities. Maybe sam and blm can go above that, but if you lock current tanks in vit accs we'd do like half of equally skilled sam and that's too much for me. Idk about you but I wouldn't really feel rewarded for optimizing dps if I only do that little.

I like the idea of making aggro potentially rewarding, but not in this fashion.

Because it's the whole concept of being a support again and all you've done is offload the tank's DPS onto the DPS. What will happen is that we have the problem of our contribution being reliant on others and this is especially not something that will be appreciated in pugs and DF. Both by the tanks who have bad DPS who don't utilize their efforts and by the DPS who aren't given their full potential because their tank is incompetent.

If I make the biggest aggro threshold but my glue sniffing DPS don't even get remotely close to it, it again is just wasted effort that didn't change anything in the fight, which is the whole issue of aggro as it is right now. It's an chore that needs to be done but being good at it doesn't offer anything back.

Using Balance on bad DPS will still net you bad DPS. 10% of shit is still shit.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

What will happen is that we have the problem of our contribution being reliant on others and this is especially not something that will be appreciated in pugs and DF.

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It shouldn't be a problem since we're supposed to be a team. Right now it really bugs me that DPS do their thing, we do ours, and there is basically no synergy between us.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

If I make the biggest aggro threshold but my glue sniffing DPS don't even get remotely close to it, it again is just wasted effort that didn't change anything in the fight, which is the whole issue of aggro as it is right now.

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No, because if your DPS are way below your aggro, you can focus more on personal damage than keeping your threat level high. If they can't compete even when you're tanking in DPS stance, sure, throw that tank stance away.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Idk about you but I wouldn't really feel rewarded for optimizing dps if I only do that little.

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I don't feel rewarded by optimizing my personal DPS, I feel rewarded by optimizing the raid DPS. Right now, both are the same, but give me another way to do the latter, and I won't care about the fomer.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Blizzard never got rid of aggro holding. They just adjusted the numbers to weaken threat coefficients but increased damage dealt by skills. The result is tank players seeing bigger numbers but overall aggro generation staying relatively the same. In simple terms, your Devastates hit for bigger numbers but generate the same threat as when they dealt piddly damage.

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No, it was still boosted around Wrath of the Lich King. People used to require aggro mods for endgame raids and DPS had to hold off. You should've seen Warrior in Burning Crusade, they used to take gear off in outgeared content so that they would take more damage on purpose, that way they generated more rage from damage taken, allowing them to do more aggro. I distinctly remember at the pre-Wrath patch all tanks got a massive buff and you could just yolo instances after, because most of Burning Crusade dungeon challenge revolved around the trash mobs which were now easy to hold aggro on.

Watch some of this old vid and see how they behave around the trash mobs. Marking them and doing them one at a time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHsP5-t4_4c

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It shouldn't be a problem since we're supposed to be a team. Right now it really bugs me that DPS do their thing, we do ours, and there is basically no synergy between us.

No, because if your DPS are way below your aggro, you can focus more on personal damage than keeping your threat level high. If they can't compete even when you're tanking in DPS stance, sure, throw that tank stance away.

I don't feel rewarded by optimizing my personal DPS, I feel rewarded by optimizing the raid DPS. Right now, both are the same, but give me another way to do the latter, and I won't care about the fomer.

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Synergy should be something that allows you to do more rather than restrict you of basic functions. I too don't agree with the idea that tanks should be individually lower in overall direct contribution because it's frankly again, completely reliant on your DPS to be not dumb. If we have a massive aggro lead but the DPS are not utilizing it, what's the point of us doing our damage combo when it is going to be significantly less impactful?

I like to support like any other person, but I don't like being a pocket slave. It again, kinda destroys my fantasy and my personal enjoyment of the game when tanks are designed to be side kicks/Robins to our DPS heroes/Batmans than equal team mates.

What's the point of us using big swords/axes or even straight swords if they do nothing? Why don't we just be all shield bearers since that seems to be the only thing people seem to think the role "tank" as?

I'm tired of the idea that the only appropriate flavor for tanks is Shield/More Shields when DPS can range from knives and swords to staves and guns or virtually any weapon conceivable.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

If we have a massive aggro lead but the DPS are not utilizing it, what's the point of us doing our damage combo when it is going to be significantly less impactful?

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I don't understand. If you want to have massive aggro, you'll probably need your tank stance and a use your enmity combo a lot. Right now, this "rotation" would lead to very low personal DPS. If you want high personal DPS, you'll drop your tank stance as much as possible and do only the minimum required enmity combo.

This would not change with my idea, apart from having a more complex enmity rotation. If your DPS can not make profit of your enmity, then it's better for the raid if you stick with the current focus on personal DPS. In that case, your personal DPS would still be impactful when compared to your DPS (low) number.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

tanks are designed to be side kicks/Robins to our DPS heroes/Batmans than equal team mates.

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We're not sidekicks. Without us, the whole team would die in mere seconds. It's the exact same oversight as those who consider healers as "cure-slave". We've seen synced content done with a team full of tanks, where are the "full DPS" team that cleared the current savage raid ?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

What's the point of us using big swords/axes or even straight swords if they do nothing?

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Sorry to disappoint you, but it's a trinity based MMO. You could wield a litteral nuclear bomb, if you're a tank, you'll do less damage than a DPS using a harp...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

We're not sidekicks. Without us, the whole team would die in mere seconds.

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No, without you, the game designers would simply lower the amount of un-avoidable damage and life would go on as usual. Similar goes for healers. The only role that truly matters is DPS, because you cannot easily remove those - the game, including tanking and healing, are built around damage. Focusing damage on you, mitigating damage and undoing damage simply are pointless without damage existing in the first place. Health bars in general are.

And with that in mind, it's plain to see why full tank parties were able to pull off synced content: Because they were given lots of damage, enough to beat DPS checks specifically designed for DPS. It's the fact they can turn into a DPS that allows them such. If you don't turn yourself into a DPS and actually deal damage, you cannot even slay an open world trash mob as tank or healer, because tanking and healing both do not contribute to winning a fight, they only delay loss. And delaying loss is pretty useless by itself, hence they rely on being forced into groups - Whenever they are not artificially forced into groups, they are benched. Happens to off-tanks quite often when the fight doesn't have enough gimmicks to enforce them or main tanks become geared enough to absorb those. The second healer is also gladly ditched if you don't need them, either via overgearing or because the fight isn't designed with high enough base demands.

And because they are artificially forced into groups, DPS cannot pull off the same. The encounters are specifically designed to prevent that, because if they could, tanks would not even be taken into groups, as, again, they are innately useless. It's all about damage, because damage is what makes you win. And because of that, tanks and healers ARE in fact sidekicks, to the point they require the ability to turn themselves into DPS, because only DPS matters in the end.

And that's why DPS is a pretty big deal for every role. It's what the game revolves around. Don't even think for a moment you could get anything done without it.

/endrant

It doesn't matter about comparing to low DPS because we're going at two extremes here. I hate the notion of a singular set of playstyle where you HAVE to tank stance to tank. That's just too simple and boring. Especially when all you do while tanking is generate an arbitrary number that does nothing by itself when you can do that now and still feel like you're contributing. Aggro by itself is boring. Why do the other roles have complete access to all their skills while us tanks have to choose between one half or the other?

And yes, if a tank is purely there because the content requires at a minimum one of them then he is indeed there as a side kick. You ever hear of any legit strategy adding another tank? No? Because all I see is everyone clamoring to drop tanks whenever and wherever possible. Remember the age of Solo tank raids? That felt shit.

And please, the only reason those 8 man tank runs were even viable was because of overgearing and the tanks ability to heal. That's the actual crutch there not their slight sturdiness or ability to hold aggro good. Don't use that example because we both know it's meme example that holds no weight in actual design and balance concerns.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sorry to disappoint you, but it's a trinity based MMO. You could wield a litteral nuclear bomb, if you're a tank, you'll do less damage than a DPS using a harp...

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Yeah, go and advertise that line and tell me how many new tanks you get. Because of that very concept, I'm sure that's a large contributing factor to why the Tank role is not popular. No one wants to feel like a weakling or be a female doge.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

The only role that truly matters is DPS

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No, without you, game designer would only reduce the amount of HP on mobs and life would go on as usual.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I hate the notion of a singular set of playstyle where you HAVE to tank stance to tank.

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Considering this is your personal taste, there's no reason to arbitrary decide that it's better or worst than the current singular set of playstyle where you have to tank stance. Yet, this current playstyle is so forced down our throat that you have people bitching about it in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

And yes, if a tank is purely there because the content requires at a minimum one of them then he is indeed there as a side kick.

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No, if you're required, you're not a sidekick. "Legit strategy adding another tank" ? Yes, for lots of content. And if not, tell me where are the solo A1S with correponding ilvl.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

And please, the only reason those 8 man tank runs were even viable was because of overgearing and the tanks ability to heal.

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So, I guess you can send 8 overgeared but still synced RDM in A12S, right ? I'd like to see that happen.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Yeah, go and advertise that line and tell me how many new tanks you get. Because of that very concept, I'm sure that's a large contributing factor to why the Tank role is not popular.

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No, this concept is well know by any MMO (or Final Fantasy) player . What your job looks like has absolutely no impact on what he does. If people don't like to tank, it's only because they don't like to be responsible for wipes or treated like shit by DPS divas.

They can reduce the mobs HP to 1 and the tank and healer wouldn't be able to win because "hur dur I only hold aggro and mitigate or I only heal cuz im a HEALer"

What you've suggested where it's only tank stance or go home is exactly that. Only one singular possible playstyle. What we have now is two that can clear. Sure one is more objectively better than the other but at the very least they can both be played with and cleared with. Tank stance or get critted to death? Yeah, fantastic. /s

Yeah the RDM's will probably be able to do it considering their goddamn ability to both raise AND heal. Tank busters? Sack and raise. Oh look, they did it, and considerable faster than the "fantastic 8 tank comp". This is a pointless argument.

It's also well fricken known that no one wants to play tanks or healers. It's also well firetrucken known that everyone wants to play DPS. Why aren't we changing this? Why are we happy to stay in the archaic idea of pure trinity or go home? It's not perfect and we all know it. What SE have down so far is a step in the right direction. DPS queues weren't hour long in HW because would you believe it? People WANTED to play tanks and healers. Why? Because they were able to contribute and feel strong. This ofcourse isn't the only factor as there are many others such as two frocken DPS roles and no tanks in the new expansion or the failure to deliver on tank balance when it was promised instead of a new tank. But I believe it is nonetheless a big contributing factor alongside those and the responsibilities thing. Being a protector is not popular and if you base your tank role around that and only around that then that small pool of people is all you're gonna get.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

What you've suggested where it's only tank stance or go home is exactly that. Only one singular possible playstyle. What we have now is two that can clear. Sure one is more objectively better than the other but at the very least they can both be played with and cleared with. Tank stance or get critted to death? Yeah, fantastic. /s

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Ok, so, basically, you didn't understand what I said...

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Yeah the RDM's will probably be able to do it considering their goddamn ability to both raise AND heal. Tank busters? Sack and raise. Oh look, they did it, and considerable faster than the "fantastic 8 tank comp". This is a pointless argument.

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Let's talk about it once a video shows that, ok ?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

It's also well fricken known that no one wants to play tanks or healers.

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Except all the people that actually like to play tanks for tanking. You know, those people that think it's approriate that tanks should wear VIT gear, use tank stance, do significantly less damage than DPS...

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

What SE have down so far is a step in the right direction.

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No, it's not, and that's why they're changing it little by little.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

DPS queues weren't hour long in HW because would you believe it? People WANTED to play tanks and healers. Why? Because they were able to contribute and feel strong.

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No, DPS queues weren't that long because the game didn't give two highly-requested-flavor-of-the-month-DPS at the same, for which the hype will die soon enough. That's why any party you'll find right now will have at least one RDM or SAM, if not both.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Being a protector is not popular and if you base your tank role around that and only around that then that small pool of people is all you're gonna get.

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Of course it's not popular since you have people that feel perfectly OK to say you're not contributing at all to the fight if you focus on tanking. Why don't we let the DPS go by themselves ? After all, to use your reference, why would you take two Robins in the team if you can have two Batmans instead.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, so, basically, you didn't understand what I said...

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Her summary actually seems pretty apt to me. I guess I'm misinfering as well?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not, and that's why they're changing it little by little...

...No, DPS queues weren't that long because the game didn't give two highly-requested-flavor-of-the-month-DPS at the same, for which the hype will die soon enough. That's why any party you'll find right now will have at least one RDM or SAM, if not both.

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To be honest, I've yet to see a queue over 24 minutes. I average 12-15. And that's across leveling 5 DPS to 70 by solo-queue dungeon spamming. The times don't feel any higher than Heavensward. If anything, PvP and PotD diverting DPS made them feel shorter than Heavensward until queuing for later dungeons and after the PvP XP nerf both.

That said, Stormblood tanks over the course of leveling were actually given the highest relative strength they've ever had in the history of the game. With the 20% damage increase via Job Action Damage I/II removed from DPS classes and AP contribution returned to purely strength, the gap had never been smaller. It's just that Stormblood tanks are more effective with Heavensward accessories than Stormblood, mitigating more over time and contributing more to any given clear; the scaling is only half there.

But that all sounds like intelligent design, or even trying to close the output vs. safety ("true" tank vs. effective tank) gap to you?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why don't we let the DPS go by themselves?

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As often as possible, you do let the DPS go by themselves, so long as it would reduce the time necessary to accomplish the objectives. How is this even worth renewed debate?

"Luckily" for tanks (and healers to an extent), there are specific gimmicks meant to ensure that they aren't skipped, sometimes even by flat out immunizing all enemies to effects that would otherwise allow for other modes of mitigation or strategic defensive play (e.g. CC) or removing such tools from the toolkits of native DPS.

What's next? A crippling potency loss unless within 30 yards of a tank to ensure the same quality of solo play as those of the tank (since reduced to aggro zone) role? Premades only for PotD, guys. God forbid we forget our two extra warm bodies to ensure that the half remaining of the party is allowed to get stuff done. True trinity, go!

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Her summary actually seems pretty apt to me. I guess I'm misinfering as well?

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Can you explain the "Tank stance or get critted to death?" then, plz ?

Let me ask you a question. Imagine that, after the constant complain of having reduced the skill ceiling too much, every DPS get an updated and very complex rotation for very skilled players that allow them to do 50% more damage. But, the aftermath of that boost is that is would be almost impossible to not lose aggro without a really high tank stance uptime. Would you embrace using your tank stance more or would you come here asking for them to be nerfed back so you can retain your full personal DPS ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Can you explain the "Tank stance or get critted to death?" then, plz ?

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I think it was a reference to this post

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...change-stances

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The other would be to alter raid design to make tank stances mandatory. Things like the boss auto-crits you if you don't have a tank stance up, and tie all enmity generation to tank stances.

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