When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

And SE would need to INCENTIVIZE running these for players who knew the content, perhaps with a daily roulette that awarded tomes and a possible minion or mount drop... NOT GC Seals or crafting mats. Adding an increased chance of mounts dropping to EX Primals is all well and good, but all it does is give experienced players a reason to repeat the content with each other.

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There is already a system in place where running content with someone who has not yet cleared the content gets a bonus of tomestones. For T5, that's 100 Soldiery (formerly 100 Myth).

Honestly? That should be incentive enough. Though for even more incentive in a way that makes sense, I think that bonus should have a multiplier on it for each new player in a run. Two new players? 200 Soldiery bonus. Three new players? 300. Four new players? 400. That should grant incentive to experienced players trying to get Soldiery Tomes for things like mats or books.

Obviously the only time this should not happen is in brand new, fresh-to-the-latest-patch content. But for any other content? That'd be amazing for all parties involved.

Also, I'm a little more mellow than I was earlier in this thread. Someone reached out to me in-game from this very topic and actually renewed my faith quite a bit that T5 actually can be done without Blue Garter-level mastery and teamwork.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

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Being told you are doing a terrible job during a run is one thing, but to be told that "you suck" BEFORE engaging (also during) in anything just because you ilevel is on the low side is terrible and discriminative, i.m.o. It really makes me hate this ilevel thing more by the day. Way to go showing them that it takes skill to handle situations! I would totally laugh at that super geared person afterwards. Just because they got a higher ilevel doesn't mean that they are good. But when do you say to them that being a high ilevel bragger "is not okay"?

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

Being told you are doing a terrible job during a run is one thing, but to be told that "you suck" BEFORE engaging (also during) in anything just because you ilevel is on the low side is terrible and discriminative, i.m.o. It really makes me hate this ilevel thing more by the day. Way to go showing them that it takes skill to handle situations! I would totally laugh at that super geared person afterwards. Just because they got a higher ilevel doesn't mean that they are good. But when do you say to them that being a high ilevel bragger "is not okay"?

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OH MY GOD, THIS.

I was running Copperbell HM about a month after it came out. I was 20 ilvls above the minimum ilvl requirement (which is a pretty safe place for any content, really). I was tanking with this White Mage who kept calling me a terrible tank because I couldn't single-handedly hold off an entire group of enemies by myself without needing a single heal (while he was holyspamming to high heavens), Got so bad that, once we hit the boss room (a boss I have tanked very easily since day 1 of 2.1), I was just like "Sorry, I'm clearly not good enough to fight this boss. I hope you find a better tank soon." and just quit.

Roetip: If you're going in an HM dungeon or trial and someone is in the bare minimum required gear, that does not mean they suck. They're not at their highest potential, sure, but they could have enough skill to optimize their job. That's why there is a minimum ilvl on everything in the endgame. EX Trials and Raids I can kinda understand, but it is not okay, in HMs, to criticize someone right out of the gate due to their gear level.

If you want to find like minded members who are at the same skill level as you why not make a party finder and be specific about what your expectations are?

For example; LF more for first time turn five clear, please know up to twisters. Short, simple, and to the point. You'll have the potential to get people who already beat it, but want to help, and like minded individuals who also are where you at skill level wise, and need their clear too.

I personally think your views are jaded from your experiences. I've pugged turn 1 - 8, and there were plenty of parties with jerks, but there was also many nice people, and really fun parties. It's doable without a static, raiding FC, or voice chat.

It sucks encountering jerks, but honestly don't let it get to you too much. If it gets to the point where you don't want to attempt harderer content out of fear for getting yelled at you need thicker skin.

You shouldn't project your experiences, and frustrations onto others though. Not everyone who's at end game is the way you describe, and if I met you in game and I wanted to help you, and you projected that onto me, I wouldn't bother wasting my time to help you. I'm not gonna help some random person who's a dick to me for no reason, I'm no Mother Teresa.

My way of handling others (be it duty finder, PF or FC/LS members) is to ask if they need a rundown before the content. If w wipe due to a mistake try to help them by identifying the mistake. Example tam Tara HM if too many adds are making it to the center suggest to the SMN or SCH to use energy drain for a bit more burst and save aetherflow stacks for that phase. Depending on the response I get, determines how I will proceed. I make an effort to never put in any qualifiers such as bad, terrible, etc. just directly call out an action or actions that need to be taken.

Responses are usually positive if I approach that way. If I feel frustration mounting to the point where I can't help without being "mean" that's my cue to excuse myself from the run (this is harder with FC/LS members).

Duty finder you are allowed to "wing it". That is what duty finder is for. Its to link up with groups quickly and easily so you can do content. Last I checked, there is no prereq in duty finder that says "must know the fight". Part of the fun in trying something for the first time is learning it on the fly. Besides any group that isnt full of brain-dead flesh bags will summarize the mechanics to all newcomers. This is how we used to accomplish things before youtube.

If you're entering an organized group, its a given you must meet their expectations. But duty finder is duty finder, and I find that no such requirement should exist.

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

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I am pretty sure the op stated that when you know it was not going to work. Based off that assumption I would think that the op has tried everything in ones power to remedy in the situation and @ that point it is either leave or kick them. I personally don't tolerate people that are making my game time a second job and I will only put up with so much before I either leave or kick them.

As I stated before the lesser evil is removing the bad apple from the barrel of good apples or removing ones self from such situations. An entire group should not have to grind through 3 hrs of bs because someone has the inability to learn / adapt after multiple explanations.

I am not saying kick someone immediately but, there is a time when it is to be done and that time is when I decide it is time. I don't care about the current p.c. / coddling that goes on in today's generation. I am about whats best for the group and my self and if it hurts someone coddled persons feeling I really don't care.

It's just like running a company when your expense are up and you have to cut or shut down.. well you have to either fire people or reduce cost. If you have to fire people that's just the way it goes. Nothing personal it's just the logical decision to cut 50 people to save 1200 peoples jobs. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Symbiant

I don't care about the current p.c. / coddling that goes on in today's generation. I am about whats best for the group and my self and if it hurts someone coddled persons feeling I really don't care.

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I also feel the name calling and lack of real advice is quite prevalent. I think the best advice especially when you are in the thick of it is direct and pointed advice or identification of the issue. (Quite possibly we are advocating the same approach) I see far too many "player xyz your dps is horrible" vs "player xyz your damage needs to be higher during that phase. Save your raging strikes/fester/other cool downs etc."

Both call out the issue in question. One facilitates improvement. The other usually evokes a defensive response. My approach is not coddling and sure some people will take offense but at least I've left them with something they can hopefully use to improve.

The problem is that in high end encounters 7/8 players might literally be unable to carry an 8th player. There are some fights as it stands now that it doesn't matter if seven people know the fight and are well geared, one person's mistake will cause a wipe of the whole group or will eventually lead to the inability to a wipe for everyone involved.

Fights in this game are like eight single player fights going on at once. You generally just have to worry about your own role and hope even one of the other 7 people doesn't mess up, thus killing everyone else. This is why even having one person that doesn't know what they're doing is such a detriment. Try doing T9 with someone who doesn't understand thunder or divebombs, even if the other 7 people understand the mechanic they're still going to die. Or T5 before echo with divebombs + twisters. Of course this behavior extends past Coil, but it's the same fundamental concept (Even in dungeons where it's without reason). Why take a chance on someone who doesn't understand the fight from the start when the game is predicated on everyone having to know exactly what the "dance" so to speak is? It's just going to be a long and painful process for the seven people who understand the fight to explain everything that for all intents and purposes you should already know before you go in, just so that you can potentially still fail at it and waste everyone's time.

People go into instances expecting one shots and max gear because that's just the expectation the playerbase has at this point. Nobody wants to baby newer players (Even if you're only a day late to content). Is this unfair? Absolutely. There's nothing that can really be done about it though unless SE finds some way to add incentive to having more patience (Which the first time bonus is already meant to do).

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The point is every person who raids out there isn't a terrible horrible person who doesn't want to help, ...

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And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

They are not terrible until they start insulting everyone else on the forums with terms like "lazy", "no iniative", "don't listen", "won't learn", "spoon fed", etc. etc. The vast majority of the player base just want the opportunity to learn and progress, and preferably without drama, even if it takes more than 50 wipes and lots of waiting and learning. If they are limited in the there ability and time, surely can do stick to doing nothing, and not go out of their way to do less than nothing. Yet you seem here making all sorts of false accusations.

It is OK to give advice. It is NOT OK to insult people.
It is OK to be elite. It is NOT OK to be elitist.
It is OK to be a raider. It is NOT OK to sell clears.
It is OK to speed run when everyone agrees. It is NOT OK to be a speed runner and force it all the time.
It is OK to wipe more than 50 times or more. It is NOT OK to be troll wipe people on purpose. (One purpose could be to make them buy clears)
It is OK to be limited in the ability/time to help. It is NOT OK make it difficult for other players by dragging them down, verbal abuse, or calling them names.
It is OK to vent your frustrations on the forum. It is NOT OK to tell other players to quit their whining or shut up.

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy runs, nor is anyone going to be able to force someone to do something for free when they could get paid to do it.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free? They put in the time to achieve something so they get to charge for their services when dealing with people who did not put in any time, it's no different.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy runs, nor is anyone going to be able to force someone to do something for free when they could get paid to do it.

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free? They put in the time to achieve something so they get to charge for their services when dealing with people who did not put in any time, it's no different.

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Unless their RMT's doing this as well it a great way to get fast gil they be stupid not to attempt this player A buys gil just to give it back to seller= profit just a thought.

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Originally Posted by odintius

Unless their RMT's doing this as well it a great way to get fast gil they be stupid not to attempt this player A buys gil just to give it back to seller= profit just a thought.

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The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick. But if SE datamines their data they just might find them, and the clear sellers may even be blind to the RMT, but the RMT can easily make use of the clear sellers for their own benefit without them being any wiser.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Selling runs is perfectly acceptable if people are willing to pay for it. ....

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There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable. Only those who are ethically challenged thinks it is OK without consider the subject matter. Clears should be obtained fair and square by persistence, patience, and learning by the player for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

Do you walk up to a crafter and expect them to make whatever you want for free?

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Actually there are many crafters that will help with melds and crafts for free. But they usually don't give way materials or items, yet I've even seen that happen. Nonetheless, crafted goods and gathered mats are sanctioned trade by SE, and market board was created to facilitate that. And the price for those items are not determined by the time put in to level, craft, gather etc. It is purely determined by the market conditions. And you can buy all the vanity you want, but you still won't get the Allagan, High Allagan, or Dreadwrym gear. Those are not meant to be obtainable by gil.

RMT did sell runs in FFXI. RMT sold everything, and to emulate them, is to be enable bad ethics in the community.

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Originally Posted by Schizm

But really now, when you can "abandon" an event or say it's OK to say, "It's Not OK?"

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To get back to this particular question of the OP, in my opinion you need to consider the scope of the content you're in and judge / respond appropriately.

Duty Roulette / Duty Finder
Expect a wide range of skill levels here. Some players may be new, others will be veterans. Mistakes can and will happen, but take everything with a grain of salt. Generally you shouldn't ever need to abandon aside from the direst of newbie mistakes or idiotic of trolls. In general, you should be able to blaze the content without too much hassle and shouldn't need to abandon.

Extreme Primals
Much more unforgiving than Duty Finder dungeons, and you generally should be aware of how the fights mechanically work. These aren't as tuned as Coil and generally more forgiving. One person dying here or there generally shouldn't hamper your overall performance and there are safe spots where a player can be raise'd effectively. You should only really abandon, though, if there is no progress being made for the fight itself. Constantly unable to beat Heart phase on Titan EX? Probably a good time to stop. Overall party fatigue causing wipes earlier and earlier in the fight for Levithan or Mog? Yeah, also a good time to stop.

Coil
Expect the long haul, this is the pinnacle of raiding and expect for long hardships and commitment if you want to succeed. People NEED to be able to carry their weight in this content. All it takes is one of the simple mistakes and *BOOM* there goes your entire party. When do you abandon? Either when no progress is being made at all or if there's clearly someone who cannot handle the pressure that is Coil. If you're doing Coil, you're doing it with the intent to win the fight. If you cannot because one particular person cannot clear one mechanical hurdle despite advice? I'm sorry, that person is the weakest link, and should be replaced. If it's an overall party thing that's causing mistake after mistake? Time to call it a night and try again later.

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I think the deeper and more important aspect to consider of this is the tone that a player uses when they approach a lackluster player. Regardless of how you feel, you both end up losing if you end losing your cool telling another player that they need to improve on their skills. Part of the animosity between elite and new players is because both sides of the coin have loud and belligerent fools that cause so much tension in the air that you could snap it with a butter knife. You can agree to disagree, but when the vast majority of responses and replies end up being snap replies clouded by powerful and angry emotions, tempers run high and words get spewed that shouldn't be spewed.

For myself in particular, the most important aspect of a discussion is to maintain the morale high ground and remain calm and level headed. If the other side of the coin does not want to listen? Oh well, you made the effort. If you're response to someone is belligerent and rude, of course you're going to get a similar response back and this exacerbates the situation further until someone snaps. Once again, at that juncture in the game, no one wins and everyone leaves angry and unhappy.

My boss at work has a saying - always look at the situation, not the person. Easier said than done, but if you can handle that, then you can objectively determine what the best course of action is and then be able to tell the group / players "No, it's not okay anymore. I'm sorry and goodbye".

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

padded room bubble ramblings

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Gil is a mean to exchange goods and services in a mutually agreeable way.

You're basically saying anything at all that is exchanging a service for money is ethically wrong. Hi, please go outside and step into the place where the sun shines and then step inside a business.

Or better yet, go into your inn room in game and demand the aesthetician changes your hair for free. After all, that's paying gil for a service!

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

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You're basically saying anything at all that is exchanging a service for money is ethically wrong. ...

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Way to go at making up completely nonsensical interpretations. See:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

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There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable....

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Just because people are willing to pay does not make it ethical or unethical. You are ethically challenged, so you think anything and everything should be bought and sold with money. But civilized society has laws and regulation, just like games have rules, both clearly stated and unstated societal norms socially enforced, because having everyone freedoms protected by having order and stability is better than anarchy and chaos. It is only reasonable that civilized society should have rules that sort out contentions between conflicting interests, and not all trade and exchanges are acceptable if it is harmful to the society, in this case the game community.

BTW you've shown that you like to take nonsense extreme positions. Example:

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

...If DPS has to hold back, tank is bad...

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It is a team game, people need to play together and adjust and adapt. Similarily, not everything should be up for trade and exchange. SE has actually has built that into the game and is basically forgotten and take for granted, considering how much gear is actually untradeable.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

The RMT and clear sellers are probably in cahoots, but of course if they are smart they will have some sort of gil laundering scheme so they do NOT get their important accounts banned, and it makes it all the harder to any of us to really make the proof stick. But if SE datamines their data they just might find them, and the clear sellers may even be blind to the RMT, but the RMT can easily make use of the clear sellers for their own benefit without them being any wiser.

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...I...am just baffled at the amount of conspiracy theory here. Just baffled. It would be hilarious if I knew you were joking.

RMT and clear sellers are not in cahoots. RMT usually are individuals or actual businesses that do the same thing. They pump the game of gil. Clear sellers are raid groups that want to make gil.

Hell, my group last night just sold a run to someone needing Twintania. We saw them complaining about it and offered it and he took it. All for the wonderful price of 5 gil. (We were bored). We are not RMT and we are not in cahoots with them. You're just talking cray.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

There are many things that can be sold in game and in real life. Just because people are willing to pay, does NOT make it acceptable. Only those who are ethically challenged thinks it is OK without consider the subject matter. Clears should be obtained fair and square by persistence, patience, and learning by the player for themselves.

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Don't tell people how to enjoy their game time. I don't buy clears but if someone wants to do it then they can. Whatever they want to do is their right when they pay a monthly fee. I'm sorry but get off the high horse that you seem to love in these forums.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

...I...am just baffled at the amount of conspiracy theory here. ..

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There is no conspiracy theory required. Fact is both clear sellers and RMT sellers are spamming you more than often enough to fill up your blacklist. You would have to be deliberately blind to not see how gil can be converted to real money and how that can be major motivating factor. There is old chinese saying, "all kinds of business exist, including those that may cause heads to roll, but there will never be one that loses money for very long"

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

.Don't tell people how to enjoy their game time. ... I'm sorry but get off the high horse that you seem to love in these forums.

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Buy clears is not enjoying the game, it is bypassing it. Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc. And that high horse? I do NOT what you are talking about. I don't ride horses, and we have the right to protest clear sellers for their unethical and unhelpful behavior. If they got the time to sit on the PF and sell clears, they got time to go help a learning party.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

They are not terrible until they start insulting everyone else on the forums with terms like "lazy", "no iniative", "don't listen", "won't learn", "spoon fed", etc. etc. The vast majority of the player base just want the opportunity to learn and progress, and preferably without drama, even if it takes more than 50 wipes and lots of waiting and learning. If they are limited in the there ability and time, surely can do stick to doing nothing, and not go out of their way to do less than nothing. Yet you seem here making all sorts of false accusations.

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Uh oh we were having a relatively civil discussion on how to approach advice giving etc... NyarukoW is here, time to get the popcorn! I bet they'll try to bring clear sellers into the discussion soon!

Edit: lol I hadn't read page 14 when I posted this... Yup this thread is now about clear sellers...

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

There is no conspiracy theory required. Fact is both clear sellers and RMT sellers are spamming you more than often enough to fill up your blacklist.

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You said that they were in cahoots. If you're saying that they are based on how much they spam you, then FCs are in cahoots too. All of these things fill up my chat window and my blacklist.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Buy clears is not enjoying the game, it is bypassing it. Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc.

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Once again, you're telling people how to enjoy their time and their game. Seems a bit preachy to me.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And that high horse? I do NOT what you are talking about. I don't ride horses, and we have the right to protest clear sellers for their unethical and unhelpful behavior. If they got the time to sit on the PF and sell clears, they got time to go help a learning party.

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No, once again, preachy. You have the right to protest it but we have the right to tell you to get off the soap box too. And seriously, selling clears helps the people who want to buy them. They're willing and people who wanna sell it are willing. Win/Win. If you don't wanna buy your run, don't buy one. It's that simple. No need for all this preaching.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Buy clears is not enjoying the game, it is bypassing it. Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc.

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I think we can all agree NyarukoW knows what's best for all of us and what we enjoy and desire in a game. Can you tell me more on how to live my life oh psychic one? What if I just want to craft all by my lonesome? Have I missed the point if the game despite it bringing me great joy to fill the marketplace full of goods with my name on it? Should I tell my FC member who loves taking in the scenery and fishing that he's not enjoying the game... Others having a high horse... Look in the mirror.

(Shoot I'm feeding the troll! But it's so fun watching them eat! Lol)

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

...What if I just want to craft all by my lonesome? ..

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No one said you can't do what you want when you are not hurting others. Go craft if it floats your boat.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

... Seems a bit preachy to me. .. No need for all this preaching. ....

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So what? No one tells you to listen to that preacher on campus who is always there at lunch time either. I like that they are putting in an earnest effort to help everyone. I do NOT go up to tell them to shut up even if I don't agree with them all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

... we have the right to tell you to get off the soap box too....

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If no want to listen the do NOT have to. But obviously something about this simple message for players coming together and playing together helping each other is so threatening that you'd actually want to take away my right of free speech (a.k.a no soap box)? Seriously?

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

No one said you can't do what you want when you are not hurting others. Go craft if it floats your boat.

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Assuming I play the game for enjoyment, you did:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc.

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Meaning if I play for enjoyment I must follow your view. And therefore my example of crafting by my lonesome != enjoyment therefore I shouldn't play the game. Well if I follow the NyarukoW way of life anyways... Thankfully I don't so I enjoy this game very much.

While I am thinking about it, what if SE did a type of coil, say a pre-calamity where everyone at level 50 would be equiped to a standard gear and weapon so everyone would be on par on the job where the event would need a player to be.

No elitest, no undercarries. Maybe tone down some difficulty but the requirement would be....just level 50. (or new level cap).

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Originally Posted by Schizm

While I am thinking about it, what if SE did a type of coil, say a pre-calamity where everyone at level 50 would be equiped to a standard gear and weapon so everyone would be on par on the job where the event would need a player to be.

No elitest, no undercarries. Maybe tone down some difficulty but the requirement would be....just level 50. (or new level cap).

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They could already do this by just removing echo buff and instituting an iLvl cap (Whatever the max was for that content cycle) to scale gear down to the stat caps of that patch. It's do-able.

I'm always down with the idea of level syncing. I was telling my group the other day how sad it was that the primal HM fights were being bulldozed the way they were. I would prefer that when the expansion came out that all the previous lvl 50 encounters became leveling dungeons and the older primal fights level capped.

Then again, I'm always complaining about how I wish SE would stop giving us lvl 50 dungeons and give us more leveling dungeons so that people would actually being able to tolerate the grind of leveling a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Schizm

While I am thinking about it, what if SE did a type of coil, say a pre-calamity where everyone at level 50 would be equiped to a standard gear and weapon so everyone would be on par on the job where the event would need a player to be.

No elitest, no undercarries. Maybe tone down some difficulty but the requirement would be....just level 50. (or new level cap).

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They could also just do 'storymode' coil. Basically, an easier version of each turn, that either dropped no gear, or lesser items (like tomes/crafting mats etc), but which would allow those who only really wish to clear it to see the story the option to do so. Similar to how there are 'storymode' and 'Extreme' primals. Basically, make:
Storyline Coil = lesser or no drops (potentially w/o lockouts and DFable from the start)
Regular Coil= current version and drops we have now (w/ lockouts)
Brutal Coil= hardest challenge in game.

I think this would satisfy *most* needs w/o creating more drama. Sure, you'd still have people who'd feel 'left behind' that for whatever reasons couldn't enter/find a group for the Regular Coil content, but since the game offers plenty of 'side-progression' gear and weapon options, overall, this would be the best way to allow the community as a whole to experience the coil storyline without messing around with the actual integrity or challenge of the actual dungeon itself when it comes to learning/farming the Regular/Brutal versions.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

You find like minded people to practice with. I have been on t9 since july (iirc) and have only seen a quarter of the fight...

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Since I made the post pertaining my group's progress here, might as well post this here. It turns out I've been in t9 since June, not July. Five months working on t9, of which only about two months was spent actually fighting in t9 by 3 of our original members, and 5 weeks for our newer members. The 'youngest' of them, game experience wise, apparently reached level 50 around august and beat t5 with our help on september (the other 3 have similar time frames). The last was an old member that returned in preparation for 2.4.

Yesterday, at 10:45 PM est (13 nov), we finally crushed t9 on our 2nd attempt of the day (it was almost too smooth). For our newer members it was an unbelievable win but for us 3 who have been there since june and had to work on the roster issue more than actually practicing the fight, it was long overdue.

NyarukoW, this thread was not about Clear Sellers. Stop taking these topics and throwing them completely off topic while you preach about the horrors of clear selling. You've gone to great lengths in another thread to make sure everyone knows how you feel. We know know already, and many people still don't care. Repeating yourself over and over won't suddenly make people change their minds or rewrite how society works. Get off your high horse.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

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I defend myself. I'm a raider and I fall into the generalizations made in this thread despite the insane amount of my personal time I spent helping people get wins. (over 50% of my personal time in game) I know I don't fit those generalizations so I make the argument against them. Not everyone is white knight for someone else like you are.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

The vast majority of the player base just want the opportunity to learn and progress, and preferably without drama, even if it takes more than 50 wipes and lots of waiting and learning.

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Assumptions. I've literally heard and seen personally tanks in dungeons who quit after a suggestion as innocuous as "if you throw flash into your rotation you'll have an easier time keeping those adds off the blm" to which you get the response "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY" and a rage quit leaving us half way through a dungeon without a tank. Not everyone is as wholesome and willing to learn as you seem to think. Some people take even the nicest most kindly formed suggestion and rage back against it. You can't teach people who don't want to learn and those people certainly do exist in the game and in larger numbers than you want to accept.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Buy clears is not enjoying the game, it is bypassing it. Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc. And that high horse?

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YES that's a high horse. You are in no position to tell people how to play. At all. What you enjoy, what I enjoy, and what others enjoy are all different things. That's the beauty of MMO's. I said this in a previous thread and I'll say it here too. Stop telling people how to play. and I'll add that you are not the almighty FFXIV Jesus who gets to determine what is right and wrong. Stop acting like it.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

If they are limited in the there ability and time, surely can do stick to doing nothing, and not go out of their way to do less than nothing. Yet you seem here making all sorts of false accusations.

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THIS is a accusation. Stop telling other people they are making accusations and assumptions when that's all you do left and right. You're making the accusation that people with limited time not only do nothing but somehow do less than nothing. First off there is NO CONSPIRACY TO HOLD NEW PLAYERS DOWN AND PREVENT THEM FROM MAKING PROGRESS, and secondly YOU DONT KNOW WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE. These ridiculous generalizations against people who aren't in your limited group of "people that need help" need to stop. This us vs them mentality. You need to get over this issue. It's insulting and off topic for this thread, and makes you far worse than the raiders you are hating on. You're attitude is far more toxic and far more negative than any raider I've ever personally met.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

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Maybe you should stop defending other people. You're honestly ruining their arguments, distracting from their original point, and making yourself a negative spectacle that actually achieves the opposite of what you want. Knock it off. At this point the best thing you personally can do to help is to walk away.

If you want to bemoan and talk about the blight of clear sellers MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD. Stop hijacking the threads of others for your soapbox.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

snip

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I think we have some possible comprehension issues here. In my other post; (the one you are quoting) I stated "Based off that assumption I would think that the op has tried everything in ones power to remedy in the situation"

So at this point the above what you have stated had already been applied. There comes a point when personal frustration out weighs the point of trying to improve someone. If any one tries to work with someone to the point of there own frustration then that is coddling.

Some have the belief that this kid of coddled approach will improve society but, it has proven otherwise. Crime rates are way up compared to older times. Kids going into schools shooting each other. It all comes from a coddled life.

While I do appreciate that you and others try to help people to the best of your knowledge and as I do my self but, there is a line in the sand and that's when I become mentally / emotionally involved once that occurs its time to remove the problem or remove my self from the problem.

At this point, I am not sure whether NyarukoW is a very elaborate and succesfull troll or...something else.

I am seriously torn.

The frustration from one side of the argument comes from the fact that a lot of people can't handle wiping on the same raid over and over. Wiping once is expected, but wiping 20 times just trying to get a single clear is absolutely demoralizing and many people cannot find a static because people have since moved on to Second or Final Coil already and many of those players care only for their own progression and the progression of their Free Company/Static. That demoralization is why people are upset, frustrated, and downright angry at the lack of assistance with T5. In fact, it seems virtually impossible for some.

The other side of the argument are comprised of people who were either fortunate enough to get through T5 without being demoralized or have the mental fortitude to push forward despite being demoralized. They are comprised of skilled and/or lucky players who were able to get through T5, but lack empathy for those who have yet to clear because, like they themselves, the people who have yet to clear have to rely on the resources they have to clear and should not receive any special treatment.

There's no real "right" or "wrong" group here. Just two groups of people with two very different, very polarized ideologies.

Earlier in this thread, I was angry--infuriated, even--that someone would even assume that it's my fault that I have yet to clear T5. And to a point, that still gets me frustrated because it's a real challenge to find a group of people who are both skilled and willing to clear the content you need to clear. But now that my mind is a lot more sound, I can see where the other side is coming from. I don't agree with it at all and I think it's a very Ayn Rand kind of stance to be taking towards a video game, but I at least understand.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

They are comprised of skilled and/or lucky players who were able to get through T5, but lack empathy for those who have yet to clear because, like they themselves, the people who have yet to clear have to rely on the resources they have to clear and should not receive any special treatment.

There's no real "right" or "wrong" group here. Just two groups of people with two very different, very polarized ideologies.

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I agree with everything you said but these two points. You assume there are only two kinds of people, and that those with T5 wins all don't have empathy for those without. That is false. There are many people with wins that do want others to get wins and to move to harder content. That has been largely my point in this entire thread. It's not black and white. It's not us or them. It's a large community of complex individuals and it is a disservice to lump them all into a Have or Have Not beaten T5 group, even more of a disservice to then equate traits to those people solely based on their T5 status. The only thing that separates that kind of attitude from things like racism is that we are talking about personality traits and abilities as opposed to the color of ones skin. It's still a prejudice based on something as arbitrary as beating a single boss.

Are there people who have the wins that don't help others? Sure, but the opposite is true to. There are people with wins that do help others.

Are there people who don't have wins that try really hard? Sure, but there are also those who expect carries and get nasty when people refuse.

Human beings are far more complex animals than just black and white answers, and people from both sides of the argument could stand to comprehend that a little better. The primary reason this is so polarized an issue is because some people from the "We need more help in T5" camp seem to refuse to acknowledge that all raiders aren't bad people and that some do help, and because some people on the raider side refuse to acknowledge some people looking for T5 aren't there for hand outs.

More understanding could come from both sides.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

The frustration from one side of the argument comes from the fact that a lot of people can't handle wiping on the same raid over and over. Wiping once is expected, but wiping 20 times just trying to get a single clear is absolutely demoralizing and many people cannot find a static because people have since moved on to Second or Final Coil already and many of those players care only for their own progression and the progression of their Free Company/Static. That demoralization is why people are upset, frustrated, and downright angry at the lack of assistance with T5. In fact, it seems virtually impossible for some.

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You mentioned that people cannot find a static (I'm assuming still talking about static for t5 here) with other people who have already gotten past t5 and there are MANY of the former. What's stopping the former from making a static amongst themselves? Should they do make one, they'll have a group of people who have never beaten t5 and they can practice t5 to their heart's content without the latter's condescension, right? Of course, you can use your first sentence as an excuse (easily demoralized) to explain how this will never work but then, how do you expect people who can help to be patient when people who can help themselves and are impatient with people in the same situation as theirs despite needing the win? How can you consider not being easily demoralizes as 'fortunate'? That doesn't even make sense.

Well, I agree with this but you assume also that there are many people in your personnel experience not other's that want people to get their wins do harder content ect, but others peoples experiences maybe on the opposite spectrum of the issue. For my personnel experience its more in line in the gray area not straight up black or white also, but it does happen now and then how often who knows for sure purely speculation on either side.

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Originally Posted by odintius

For my personnel experience its more in line in the gray area not straight up black or white also, but it does happen now and then how often who knows for sure purely speculation on either side.

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Extremely accurate.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

...Repeating yourself over and over won't suddenly make people change their minds or rewrite how society works...

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Maybe I am not very good at it, but this is the fundamental core of marketing and advertising. They repeat the same message however cleverly packaged and they are good at changing the packaging but they persist at it and they do change minds and they do work. The only that doesn't work is to stay silent and get overran.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I defend myself. I'm a raider and I fall into the generalizations made in this thread...

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Really all this pretense at false self-indignation. No one is accusing your of anything, yet you take it so personally, which means you are unable to see thing objectively and from a bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

The frustration from one side of the argument comes from the fact that a lot of people can't handle wiping on the same raid over and over. Wiping once is expected, but wiping 20 times just trying to get a single clear is absolutely demoralizing and many people cannot find a static because people have since moved on...

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Creating, finding, and maintaining a static is not easy. People with experience knows that to do T6-T9 you will probably need north for 200 wipes combined. This a substantial time demand, and the default expectation is not to clear any time soon, and empathize from having that understanding. Instead of empathy we see accusation about how everyone else that does have a clear as being "lazy", "spoonfed", "want carries", etc. which is all blatant false accusations about the vast majority of the player base. If they don't have the time to help, they do not have to, but they do not need to insult the other players like we see in this thread and many others.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Really all this pretense at false self-indignation. No one is accusing your of anything, yet you take it so personally, which means you are unable to see thing objectively and from a
bigger picture.

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In another thread you literally called me a clear seller. You can't keep saying these things acting like you aren't accusing people with your generalizations. You're very insulting.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Maybe I am not very good at it, but this is the fundamental core of marketing and advertising.

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Then make your own thread and stop hijacking the threads and conversations of others for your own purposes. It's not that hard. There is a right and a wrong place for your soapbox. You have continued picking the wrong one. Make your own thread and if people feel like engaging with that conversation then they will. Stop throwing threads completely off topic with your clear selling rants.