This Needs to Be Said

I enjoyed both Eureka and Diadem, but if they're gonna put this type of content in, I don't want it to be taking away as many dungeons as it is, cause it's really making things feel stretched. I do prefer new dungeons to this.

The content is fine as an option, and I enjoy it but they need to be adding so much more.
They make steps forward and then steps back.

Diadem would have been fine second time around if it had the same queue system as Eureka, so every time people bailed I didn't have to worry about not having a party for the emergency missions or farming, cause other than gathering you CAN'T do anything alone.

and I loved Anemos. It made capping my characters weekly much faster than doing dungeons. But there is very little to do in there. Were should have been crafting options in there, more stuff for parties and solo players like maps and leves, something to bring the map to life other that monster zergs and NMs.

Pagos I was fine with in the start, but the light grind is such a miserable drag. Had it just been like Anemos I'd have been ok. I love the map, but it feels like some of the aetherytes are too highly gated. Getting to level 35 doesn't feel nearly as rewarded as it did to getting to 20 in Anemos.

They should have found a way to make the relic something that you could do faster in Eureka but also gave us a way to do in in the over world. Make people that didn't wanna do Eureka do it the old way, Fate grind, light grind in dungeons and raids etc.

I'm fine with this content as an option, but not as a replacement to other things, and it really needs so much more meat to make it better.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The Eureka weapon is exclusive to Eureka as the Savage weapon is exclusive to Savage. You still have the tome weapon if you want a strong weapon that doesn't require you to do a specific content.

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And this is what makes it not a relic. With all relics before you had different ways or at least some variety in your quests. But now you are forced into a long designed instanced content with 0 variety. The only reason it didn't die already is because SE threw the "relic" into that and people took the bait.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

All youve said is "It sucks, I dont wanna do it and the people I know dont wanna do it either". Thats not enough basis for them to end the whole thing. Theyve already said were getting two more areas. And every time I personally go in all I see is full instances of people farming, BARELY any complaints. So far its your word against mine. And I dont sound like im complaining. :P Nobody would listen to any of you. And the fact that theyve gone this long without adressing it is proof.

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What are you talking about? My word against yours? I mean...yeah, I guess? You personally enjoy it? That's fine, do you. Enjoy it. But just realize that there are loads of other players who strongly dislike it. And you're right, simply complaining may not change the devs minds, so perhaps if participation numbers dwindle down, that will finally get them to listen. Something like that, I wouldn't mind at all. Seems like that would be the only way for the devs to stop producing this type of content. I don't see why you are taking some sort of issue with the fact that I, as well as so many other people, hate this content. Should we be forced to enjoy this? Should we not be allowed to issue out mass complaints because a whole lot of us take issue with this type of super grind that continues to come back over and over again?

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

Thats fine I rather not waste time. Unlike you, I live and let live.

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So...essentially, when you offered up a subtle rebuke by saying you'd complain about something that you don't like in response to my complaint, and I told you to go ahead and do it...you respond with a passive aggressive snipe? Hm. Seems legit. Not everyone is going to like certain content, and some people, such as myself and clearly many many others, are going to speak up about it. It just so happens that a lot of people just simply dislike this - so we speak up about it, very loudly. I'm failing to see what the issue is.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

And every time I personally go in all I see is full instances of people farming,

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1 pagos instance = 144 account at once.
Europe = thousands and thousands and more account...

If instances were not full... it would have been not only a fail...


And not because people are farming this without speaking (or complaning H24) that people like this...
I did farm atmas
Animus
Nexus
Novus

and dislike all... didnt spam "i hate this" but didnt change the fact i did things i dislike... Like people farming eureka now...

Delete Pagos.

I had motivation to run Anemos because I was making guaranteed progression while leveling and post-leveling. Pagos entirely loses that sense of definite progress after Lv35 because light is RNG, when light has NEVER been an RNG aspect.

I wasn't a fan of anemos or pagos, they both feel very solo-unfriendly. Going in to anemos the first time, I had reasonably high hopes. It's a very nice looking zone all around, but you soon find that all you do in this land of mystery and danger is kill random monsters. Genocide these creatures until you (slowly) level up enough to get a quest that amounts to walk to an area and teleport back. Be sure to kill them quickly so you don't lose that chain!

It was painfully unfun and unreasonably time consuming. It wasn't until they added the challenge log that I can back and finished leveling and suffering through the train. I entered pagos to find another nice zone suffering from the same problem on steroids. Now the creatures are even more solo-unfriendly. I quit at level 21.

I did a few of the old relics. While they weren't "fun" per se, it was nice that I could complete them at a reasonable pace while doing dailies. When I did anemos, it was ALL I could do. I usually have maybe 1-2 hours of playtime a day and it took all of it. It . bums me out to not complete the relic, I've always done the monk one hoping to get a neat weapon (never ever) but I simply can't bare the boredom (and wrist pain) of chaining trillions of monsters any more.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You have no choice if you want the relic.

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Again, you have the choice of not doing the Eureka weapon. If you don't like the content, simply don't do it. It's fun, I never see people complain about Deep Dungeon weapons forcing you to run Deep Dungeon or Savage weapons forcing your to run Savage.
If you want that weapon so bad you're ready to do a content you despise, then you only have yourself to blame. Yoshi-P said, from the very beginning, that Eureka wouldn't be a content for everyone.

You have other gearing options, so enjoy them and let us enjoy Eureka. As far as I know, people who depise tome farming (Like me) don't come here posting over and over again how tomestones should be deleted...even though it covers 90% of this game's content.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You missed the point. Despite that being a better weapon, people didn't care.

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People didn't care because it was gated by too much randomness. If doing an Emergency Mission have granted them a weapon everytime, even with randomized stats, Diadem would have stayed alive.

If raids only sometimes drop one item per run for one specific job and directly into one character's inventory, they would have died too.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Seems like that would be the only way for the devs to stop producing this type of content.

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I have a question...let's imagine that everybody who dislike Eureka stops running it (I still don't understand why they do...) and, in one year, we have statistics that show that the number of Eureka final weapons is really high among the playerbase. Will you claim that the content shouldn't exist in the game, or admit that it's simply something you personally don't like ? You know, like PvP or Savage arent' for everyone...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, you have the choice of not doing the Eureka weapon. If you don't like the content, simply don't do it. It's fun, I never see people complain about Deep Dungeon weapons forcing you to run Deep Dungeon or Savage weapons forcing your to run Savage.

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The difference being that in previous expansions the relic was the side project that I could do on my own and revisit old content, bringing some life to it. Was it perfect? No, but I vastly prefered it to Eureka. It took a perfectly viable concept, and dumped it into a zone that polarized the community like nothing else before.

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Originally Posted by Gun-Cat

The difference being that in previous expansions the relic was the side project that I could do on my own and revisit old content, bringing some life to it.

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Forcing you to revisit old content even if you've done it a thousand times and have nothing else to gain from it it a very dumb concept, made just so that they don't had to put effort into doing any new content.

In HW, they switched this idea to Wondrous Tails, in anticipation that the next relic would be tied to Eureka. We've know that months before Eureka came out...

Like I said several times, the Eureka weapon is A weapon. If you don't like the content, don't do it and stop trying to change it to fit your view of the game. Again, if you look at PvP, it's like you trying the enfore matches againts bots to make it a PvE content, because you absolutely want the PvP rewards.

I really like Eureka, and have been having a blast in both zones so far, especially in the first couple weeks when it releases where you have to discover mechanics and some NMs can easily lead to a wipe if people are not careful. The NM train is not great, but it is a non-issue in Pagos (for people riding the train in Pagos, good luck getting light that way). With a bit more refinement that seems to be coming in the future zone(s), I think the content will be amazing, they already have very solid foundations.

As someone who has very little interest in savage, this content has been great, and judging by the constant full instances its success is undeniable. Don't take the threads in here and reddit as "proof" that people don't like Eureka - first there's only a tiny fraction of the player base using those, and second people are always more inclined to give negative feedback than positive (ever heard the term vocal minority?). People complained heavily about pretty much every relic step in the past, this is nothing different here, give it a month or 2 so people who are still outraged by it somehow move on We should judge Eureka success by activity in game, and so far it is still VERY active, even Anemos.

Keep it up devs, many are looking forward to Pyros!

First of all... Why nobody point out the fact we totaly lost our Gerolt drunk rambling about money he own to Rowena and showing how awesome he is at his job to a "look at me I'm so clever" PnJ. God, I miss that more than anything. Farming my relics was most of the time painfull, but I had my rail of salt the Gerolt way afterward and now I just give crap to a PnJ named Gerolt that give me 2 lines of "I'll do the work because money now go back to doing the same thing over again for hours farmer of friggin' light".

GIVE US OUR GEROLT STORYLINE BACK FOR THE LOVE OF WHATEVER GOD YOU WANT !

And you know what keep me awake at night ?

The fact that maybe one day we will miss eureka because they will make it even worst... The day will come when we will regret those time joking in /shout about how eureka is the worst thing ever added in this game, congratulate people who finaly finish their weapon promising to themselves they never going back here at any cost. Because when you think it can't be worse... Oh boy devs know how to make you regret this assumption.

Cause in the next expansion we will farm light for the 4th time and they will show us a new world of uninspired boringness like we never saw before.

It's killing me to not have really done Pagos for my Samurai relic at least. But every time I think of going back in there I realize I'd rather castrate myself with a dull spoon. That would be less painful than Pagos. It's the grind of FFXI, but with zero fun and carpal tunnel inducing game play.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

Thats fine I rather not waste time. Unlike you, I live and let live.

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But here you are, posting and wasting time.

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Originally Posted by shibeouya

I really like Eureka, and have been having a blast in both zones so far, especially in the first couple weeks when it releases where you have to discover mechanics and some NMs can easily lead to a wipe if people are not careful.
...
Keep it up devs, many are looking forward to Pyros!

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Imo, it's the strengh of Eureka (+ the map).
Trying to understand how work NM fate, Mutation/Adaptation, Light, Bunny fate, etc., it was pleasant while I was progressing in Eureka and in the relic steps.

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Originally Posted by ko_

The only way to stop it is to not do it. I don't care if you want the relic or whatever. You want them to stop and listen then hard change needs to happen. No - I'm only doing it for this or that- Cause anyone entering it at all is going to be the suits telling the devs to - Keep doing it.

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Pretty much exactly why I haven't gone in. I spent at most 20 minutes in Anemos on day 1 saw it was basically a fate grind. Something else players absolutely hate. And have never gone back since.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

So...essentially, when you offered up a subtle rebuke by saying you'd complain about something that you don't like in response to my complaint, and I told you to go ahead and do it...you respond with a passive aggressive snipe? Hm. Seems legit. Not everyone is going to like certain content, and some people, such as myself and clearly many many others, are going to speak up about it. It just so happens that a lot of people just simply dislike this - so we speak up about it, very loudly. I'm failing to see what the issue is.

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I don't really mean to sit here and have this back and forth with you, I'm surprised you picked my simple comment to pick a bone against, I wasn't expecting any response from it. I felt your response to my original comment was aggressive because it required no response yet you felt upset enough about it to give me the standard "well maybe you should". I meant to point out how other players can accept content not tailored to their preference yet we have an unending amount of threads dedicated to expressing resentment with Eureka. This is an mmo, you pick and choose whats compatible with you- not everything will be, if we set the bar at "new content must be the type for me or it can't be constructed because it takes time from the delivery of the set dungeons and raids" -a formula we complain about to no end as well, how can we ever innovate. It may not be perfect but at least they are trying and that means taking risks and persevering past failure. I think it is safe to say most people agree some favorable progress is being made with every iteration of the instance, although yes probably Anemos is more likable. But maybe this is evidence to your point and it is your right to voice your opinion but understand that I was excercising that same right when disagreeing with you. However I admit my original comment was in poor taste and improperly conveyed my intent, I'm not trying to accuse you of any wrongdoing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I have a question...let's imagine that everybody who dislike Eureka stops running it (I still don't understand why they do...) and, in one year, we have statistics that show that the number of Eureka final weapons is really high among the playerbase. Will you claim that the content shouldn't exist in the game, or admit that it's simply something you personally don't like ? You know, like PvP or Savage arent' for everyone...

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Number 1, that argument is flawed because relics are tied behind Eureka. Even if statistics are high, that doesn't mean that a vast majority of those players are going to like having to go through an extremely long grind like this. This is where the feedback part would've really came in. For such an ambitious project that has taken so many resources to use, it is surprising that the devs have not offered a way for those in-game players to leave honest feedback on the system. A better argument would've been if relics weren't tied to this, but rather something else entirely, and numbers were still high.

Let's be honest here: this is first time I've openly stated my disdain for Eureka. I don't intend to make multiple threads railing against it, or going around different threads and shooting down Eureka (bringing this up specifically because you are mentioning Savage and I know where this might lead). To answer your question directly: my opinion won't change just because other players either are enjoying it, or are running it in high numbers. I don't care that there are a lot of others who are actively running it and having fun - like I've said before, do you. But myself and others don't have to like it. And if one little thread like mines makes people feel triggered enough that they felt that they had to respond against my comments, simply because myself and others don't like it, then oh well, go make a support thread about it. Don't come here and tell me I'm wrong for disliking something.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

I don't really mean to sit here and have this back and forth with you, I'm surprised you picked my simple comment to pick a bone against, I wasn't expecting any response from it. Your response to my original comment was the only passive aggressive comment in our exchange because it required no response yet you felt upset enough about it to give me the standard "well maybe you should". I meant to point out how other players can accept content not tailored to their preference yet we have an unending amount of threads dedicated to expressing resentment with Eureka. Maybe this is evidence to your point and it is your right to voice your opinion but understand that I was excercising that same right when disagreeing with you.

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Ok? I suppose positing a decent, sarcastic response to your baiting equates being upset. Sure, why not. *shrugs* We've had about 2 posts each to one another - not exactly what I would call a back-and-forth. Like I have told posters before, if you take an issue with players like me openly expressing our dislike about Eureka, you can easily just make a support thread rather than try to say 'you people are wrong for disliking this content' without really even saying why we are wrong. About your comment on rights to voice opinions...I mean, I did encourage you to go ahead and make a thread complaining about Savage if that's how you felt. I'm here expressing my opinion about Eureka, so I have no idea why you're bringing the right to voice opinions up when I don't believe nobody has been told to not express their opinion.

So far, all I've been seeing is "How dare you not like Eureka, Kaiva! How dare you express your opinion against 'good' content! I need to tell you how you are wrong for saying you don't like Eureka".

I mean, if that's the counter-argument...

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Did you even play during Diadem? Seems odd to make yourself the poster girl for this rage thread.

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I am simply stating an opinion. I've always done that.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

The playerbase. Hates. Diadem.

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Did you even play during Diadem? Seems odd to make yourself the poster girl for this rage thread.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I am simply stating an opinion. I've always done that.

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Other peoples.
But good to have you back nonetheless - I need at least 5 threads a day I can roll my eyes to. It's been very quiet without you.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Even if statistics are high, that doesn't mean that a vast majority of those players are going to like having to go through an extremely long grind like this.

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This is a video game, if a content is not fun, you can simply don't do it. If you still do, then thank you, you're playing the part of those who like it and encourage SE creating more content than this.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

This is where the feedback part would've really came in.

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Any feedback is only a minority. SE will trust statistics more than any feedback.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

For such an ambitious project that has taken so many resources to use, it is surprising that the devs have not offered a way for those in-game players to leave honest feedback on the system.

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Unless you make a mandatory poll on logging, you can't force people to give you feedback. It's not the devs' fault if so few people use the forum.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

To answer your question directly: my opinion won't change just because other players either are enjoying it, or are running it in high numbers.

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I'm not asking you to change your opinion. We can consider a content as valuable asset, even if we don't directly run it. Me, I don't do Savage nor PvP, nor housing, nor Gold Saucer, but I admit that it helps giving some players a goal that dungeon and primals alone wouldn't cover. So, it's good for them. On the other hand, I really doubt enough people play Lords Of Verminion to consider it an important part of the game.

My problem is not that people don't like it, but that the fact that they don't like is valid enough to ask forchanging it completely, damn be those who like it, or even deleting it.

Again, the only thing I'd say you're wrong about is "doing a content you don't like" but that's not specific to Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Other peoples.
But good to have you back nonetheless - I need at least 5 threads a day I can roll my eyes to. It's been very quiet without you.

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Oh those sweet, sweet lies that you tell.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is a video game, if a content is not fun, you can simply don't do it. If you still do, then thank you, you're playing the part of those who like it and encourage SE creating more content than this.

Any feedback is only a minority. SE will trust statistics more than any feedback.

Unless you make a mandatory poll on logging, you can't force people to give you feedback. It's not the devs' fault if so few people use the forum.

I'm not asking you to change your opinion. We can consider a content as valuable asset, even if we don't directly run it. Me, I don't do Savage nor PvP, nor housing, nor Gold Saucer, but I admit that it helps giving some players a goal that dungeon and primals alone wouldn't cover. So, it's good for them. On the other hand, I really doubt enough people play Lords Of Verminion to consider it an important part of the game.

My problem is not that people don't like it, but that the fact that they don't like is valid enough to ask forchanging it completely, damn be those who like it, or even deleting it.

Again, the only thing I'd say you're wrong about is "doing a content you don't like" but that's not specific to Eureka.

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Oi...

Here's the thing about 'if it's not fun, don't play it': relics are tied behind it. So matter what, if you want those relics, you have no choice but to run this. There's the trap right there. If the devs are simply going by participation numbers, and are ignoring whether players are satisfied or not, then naturally, they'll be encouraged to do it more. Even if it means irritating their player base. If players like you value Eureka and you enjoy it, then that's fine. I've not once said that players who enjoy it shouldn't continue to run it. If Eureka and future content like this were deleted in the future, yes, I myself would be fine with that. Again, if people want to counter this, they are more than welcome to make their own support threads for it. Coming here only for the sole purpose of saying that myself and others who dislike or hate Eureka are either in the wrong or shouldn't be making threads like these are just wasting time, in my opinion. Not necessarily directing that at you, to be clear.

In regards to feedback, you are right, you can't force people to give you feedback. But you can definitely encourage it from a dev's standpoint. They could easily set a system message every time you enter Eureka for a specific time period, say two weeks, with a simple message: "We encourage our fellow adventurers to leave feedback on Eureka Anemos/Pagos by visiting our Official Forums". Simple and sweet. Or creating a poll on the Lodestone, that way they have to use their account. They could even improve the poll by locking it to players who have actually visited Eureka/Pagos for the most accurate feedback. If they were so inclined to do it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Ok? I suppose positing a decent, sarcastic response to your baiting equates being upset. Sure, why not. *shrugs* We've had about 2 posts each to one another - not exactly what I would call a back-and-forth. Like I have told posters before, if you take an issue with players like me openly expressing our dislike about Eureka, you can easily just make a support thread rather than try to say 'you people are wrong for disliking this content' without really even saying why we are wrong. About your comment on rights to voice opinions...I mean, I did encourage you to go ahead and make a thread complaining about Savage if that's how you felt. I'm here expressing my opinion about Eureka, so I have no idea why you're bringing the right to voice opinions up when I don't believe nobody has been told to not express their opinion.

So far, all I've been seeing is "How dare you not like Eureka, Kaiva! How dare you express your opinion against 'good' content! I need to tell you how you are wrong for saying you don't like Eureka".

I mean, if that's the counter-argument...



I am simply stating an opinion. I've always done that.

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I wasn't done editing when you wrote back- my fault, anyhow.

This is an mmo, you pick and choose whats compatible with you- not everything will be, if we set the bar at "new content must be the type for me or it can't be constructed because it takes time from the delivery of the set dungeons and raids" -a formula we complain about to no end as well, how can we ever innovate. It may not be perfect but at least they are trying and that means taking risks and persevering past failure. I think it is safe to say most people agree some favorable progress is being made with every iteration of the instance, although yes probably Anemos is more likable. But maybe this is evidence to your point and it is your right to voice your opinion but understand that I was exercising that same right when disagreeing with you. However I admit my original comment was in poor taste and improperly conveyed my intent, I'm not trying to accuse you of any wrongdoing.

Edit: But seeing your post from above it seems the main gripe is relics being tied to it? I mean, I can't argue against it, they have changed the way we obtain them and if this content doesn't suit you I can see why you dislike it, I can't offer any solution to that matter but compared to how they used to be obtained what is the biggest barrier for you? Group play doesn't seem to be a problem from your original post, is it the grind? I recommend you try Pagos before jumping to conclusions based off what other people are saying about Pagos, you mentioned you have not yet tried it. It really isn't that bad, I think it can be finished easily in less than a month.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

But here you are, posting and wasting time.

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I do believe creating a thread outlining and detailing a dislike for something and posting a reply in disagreement are not entirely the same.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

relics are tied behind it. So matter what, if you want those relics, you have no choice but to run this.

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But since obtaining the relic is already your choice, you have the choice not to run this content.
It's exactly the same as every other weapon besides Tome. If you want Byakko weapon, you do Byakko EX, if you want an Empyrean weapon, you have to do HoH, if you want a Diamond weapon, you do Omega Savage. You're the one giving that much importance to the relic, so you're the one forcing you to do the content, so again, it's on you, especially when they made perfectly clear from the get go that this would be a "Eureka weapon".

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

If the devs are simply going by participation numbers, and are ignoring whether players are satisfied or not, then naturally, they'll be encouraged to do it more.

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And they're right to do so, since again, if you're not satisfied, no one forces you to do it. And they can't have a decent sample on how many people are "satisfied".

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Coming here only for the sole purpose of saying that myself and others who dislike or hate Eureka are either in the wrong or shouldn't be making threads like these are just wasting time, in my opinion.

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That's why I make myself clear that you're not in the wrong for not liking it ;)

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But you can definitely encourage it from a dev's standpoint.

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Color me pesimistic but I doubt "encouraging" would be enough. But, frankly, I wouldn't be against a mandatory poll at login. Since Eureka is clearly the most divisive part of SB, it would help having a clear tendency, wether it favors me or you.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

I don't know how many times we have to tell them before they listen to us.

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They could careless , funny how they said they learned this but yet here we are again...

Well said Kaiva.
I don't see SE cancelling Eureka at this point but I sincerely hope they will add more engaging activities besides killing mobs with inflated HP.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're the one giving that much importance to the relic, so you're the one forcing you to do the content, so again, it's on you, especially when they made perfectly clear from the get go that this would be a "Eureka weapon".

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You say things like this, but then you say gems like this:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Forcing you to revisit old content even if you've done it a thousand times and have nothing else to gain from it it a very dumb concept, made just so that they don't had to put effort into doing any new content.

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You should at least try to be consistent.

Look, you can dislike Eureka as you will. But the point is, don't get antsy about something based on a single line in an interview. That same interview was touting the SAM, RDM, and BLM changes as if they were something special, when they just were straight potency icnreases. A big problem is overreacting based on this, and we simply don't know yet if it will be a serious problem.

As for pagos...honestly, I think a lot of the salt comes from people expecting to bang out multiple relics in a week. It's actualy fast progression just doing your logs per week, and joining fates nearby you when they pop; if you are below 30, just stay in the southern part doing your logs, and maybe exp a little on mobs that pop the low level fates. You can level pretty fast, and light gain so far is ok doing it.

The issues do come to a head if your goal is to get multiple ones. But a lot of issues I think comes to teh playerbase wanting to either slowly do things in chunks of no more than fifteen minutes, or hardcore gridn it out in a week or less from launch. This isn't really designed for that.

I haven't even been inside Eureka since like day 2 (after the save bug hit I said forget it; never even reported my lost save data because I had already made up my mind by that point). Even Abyssea in FFXI was more fun. It at least had lots of boss fights, useful gear, powerups, chest mechanics, etc. Eureka is just a super boring, endless grind with nothing to spice it up along the way. If they're going to continue this crap, they need to add some actual fun stuff to it for me to even consider doing it.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Did you even play during Diadem? Seems odd to make yourself the poster girl for this rage thread.

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If diadem was well liked, why did the devs need to do a second version, apologize for the first and then release something that was even faster death? (I mean its probably the second content next to LoV that was death that fast) So the playerbase totally loved Diadem. ;)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

If diadem was well liked, why did the devs need to do a second version, apologize for the first and then release something that was even faster death? (I mean its probably the second content next to LoV that was death that fast) So the playerbase totally loved Diadem. ;)

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I didn't say it was well liked... by the people who were there at least. Ya girl wasn't there and hasn't even set foot in Pagos.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Look, you can dislike Eureka as you will. But the point is, don't get antsy about something based on a single line in an interview. That same interview was touting the SAM, RDM, and BLM changes as if they were something special, when they just were straight potency icnreases. A big problem is overreacting based on this, and we simply don't know yet if it will be a serious problem.
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The problem is for SE white knighters is that it's never enough.

* Don't freak out about the patch notes, wait until you play it.

* Stop freaking out about leveling your jobs wait until you're max level

* Stop freaking out about being max level, you're simply doing it Wrong

* Fix the issue that was brought up at the beginning of the expansion a year later.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

I wasn't done editing when you wrote back- my fault, anyhow.

This is an mmo, you pick and choose whats compatible with you- not everything will be, if we set the bar at "new content must be the type for me or it can't be constructed because it takes time from the delivery of the set dungeons and raids" -a formula we complain about to no end as well, how can we ever innovate. It may not be perfect but at least they are trying and that means taking risks and persevering past failure. I think it is safe to say most people agree some favorable progress is being made with every iteration of the instance, although yes probably Anemos is more likable. But maybe this is evidence to your point and it is your right to voice your opinion but understand that I was exercising that same right when disagreeing with you. However I admit my original comment was in poor taste and improperly conveyed my intent, I'm not trying to accuse you of any wrongdoing.

Edit: But seeing your post from above it seems the main gripe is relics being tied to it? I mean, I can't argue against it, they have changed the way we obtain them and if this content doesn't suit you I can see why you dislike it, I can't offer any solution to that matter but compared to how they used to be obtained what is the biggest barrier for you? Group play doesn't seem to be a problem from your original post, is it the grind? I recommend you try Pagos before jumping to conclusions based off what other people are saying about Pagos, you mentioned you have not yet tried it. It really isn't that bad, I think it can be finished easily in less than a month.

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From my view, this is not exactly them trying something new and innovating. This, to me, is them trying to refine a formula that has been receiving nothing but fierce pushback because, lo and behold, this is not FFXI. There is too much reliance on FATE grinds. I get it - they want to create content that lasts. I can acknowledge that in theory, yes, they are making steps in that direction. But the Diadem-style just doesn't work for a lot of us. You only have one option to get your relic. You don't have a choice to run different type of content. It's Eureka or bust.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But since obtaining the relic is already your choice, you have the choice not to run this content.
It's exactly the same as every other weapon besides Tome. If you want Byakko weapon, you do Byakko EX, if you want an Empyrean weapon, you have to do HoH, if you want a Diamond weapon, you do Omega Savage. You're the one giving that much importance to the relic, so you're the one forcing you to do the content, so again, it's on you, especially when they made perfectly clear from the get go that this would be a "Eureka weapon".

And they're right to do so, since again, if you're not satisfied, no one forces you to do it. And they can't have a decent sample on how many people are "satisfied".

That's why I make myself clear that you're not in the wrong for not liking it ;)

Color me pesimistic but I doubt "encouraging" would be enough. But, frankly, I wouldn't be against a mandatory poll at login. Since Eureka is clearly the most divisive part of SB, it would help having a clear tendency, wether it favors me or you.

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I wouldn't want a mandatory poll. Like I said earlier, the devs could easily just encourage it, but don't force players to give feedback - that's just shooting yourself in the foot. But they certainly can make it easy for players to provide honest feedback. You know as well as I that a lot of players want a relic weapon. A lot of us don't mind a grind - just not in this method.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Look, you can dislike Eureka as you will. But the point is, don't get antsy about something based on a single line in an interview. That same interview was touting the SAM, RDM, and BLM changes as if they were something special, when they just were straight potency icnreases. A big problem is overreacting based on this, and we simply don't know yet if it will be a serious problem.

As for pagos...honestly, I think a lot of the salt comes from people expecting to bang out multiple relics in a week. It's actualy fast progression just doing your logs per week, and joining fates nearby you when they pop; if you are below 30, just stay in the southern part doing your logs, and maybe exp a little on mobs that pop the low level fates. You can level pretty fast, and light gain so far is ok doing it.

The issues do come to a head if your goal is to get multiple ones. But a lot of issues I think comes to teh playerbase wanting to either slowly do things in chunks of no more than fifteen minutes, or hardcore gridn it out in a week or less from launch. This isn't really designed for that.

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No...the issue is that it's far too much grinding for what you get in the end. That's...really it. And again, the ability to be able to do these grinds in Eureka is hinging on enough players keeping each zone populated enough for newer players entering. Players are just tired of FATE grinding and Diadem-style instances. You are sitting here telling me I can dislike Eureka as much as I want, and then immediately tell me not to respond to a line that came from the devs in an interview that they gave. Maybe you are willing to give it a chance, and that's okay for you. But don't tell players who already dislike Eureka's grind that they shouldn't be a little bit perturbed about information that came out about Pyros.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

I didn't say it was well liked... by the people who were there at least. Ya girl wasn't there and hasn't even set foot in Pagos.

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Oh? Have you been stalking me? Because you're a terrible stalker. Do you know for sure that I never went to Diadem? Hm? Did it not occur to you that, yes, I have been to Diadem. I went with my very first Siren FC. And yes, I hated it. So what now? I shouldn't complain about Eureka just because I haven't gone into Pagos? Even though it's much of the same in concept and execution? That, despite the fact that I'd be entering at level 20, I lose access to my mounts again, I lose access to aethernet, and after I claw my way back up to 35, I have to farm for light exclusively, despite whatever gains I may get starting at level 25? It's pretty bad to make assumptions based on what I choose to share. Also...fun fact, my current forum character is not my only character, nor is it my main. So...

...I leave the floor to you for a retort.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Giving your opinions on things you haven't done - reminds me of the time you started telling people how to do Savage... great times.
Oh and remember how you when you gave me your opinion of WoW when you haven't even played it... something to cherish.

Anyway - You put my back up when you create these bandwagons for people to follow, having no solid experience yourself. I should ignore it, you're right about that. Carry on, I guess; at least you've got another thread out of it.

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Ah...bringing things up that really have nothing to do with this thread. Ok then, moving on.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The problem is for SE white knighters is that it's never enough.

* Don't freak out about the patch notes, wait until you play it.

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...do you remember the wailing about WHM before Stormblood? You remember people complaining how OP SAM was? Yeah, people should wait some.

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* Stop freaking out about being max level, you're simply doing it Wrong

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It's more like realize you have some freedom, you aren't locked into doing it in the most punishing way possible. You can just duo logs and duo fate triggers near your level, and do good. You don't have to do nonstop 4 hour grinding. It's not the only way.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Oh? Have you been stalking me? Because you're a terrible stalker. Do you know for sure that I never went to Diadem? Hm? Did it not occur to you that, yes, I have been to Diadem. I went with my very first Siren FC. And yes, I hated it. So what now? I shouldn't complain about Eureka just because I haven't gone into Pagos? Even though it's much of the same in concept and execution? That, despite the fact that I'd be entering at level 20, I lose access to my mounts again, I lose access to aethernet, and after I claw my way back up to 35, I have to farm for light exclusively, despite whatever gains I may get starting at level 25? It's pretty bad to make assumptions based on what I choose to share. Also...fun fact, my current forum character is not my only character, nor is it my main. So...

...I leave the floor to you for a retort.

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Giving your opinions on things you haven't done - reminds me of the time you started telling people how to do Savage... great times.
Oh and remember how you when you gave me your opinion of WoW when you haven't even played it... something to cherish.

Anyway - You put my back up when you create these bandwagons for people to follow, having no solid experience yourself. I should ignore it, you're right about that. Carry on, I guess; at least you've got another thread out of it.

So. Normally I confine my participation in threads on volatile subjects like this to the like button. However, there's a rebuttal to the Eureka defenders that I'm not seeing. And that is this: RE - no one's making you do it, and it's "just another weapon".

Ahem. Sorry, but no. The relic is not "just" another weapon. Tome weapons can be upgraded exactly once, and don't have any special appearance. I can't speak to savage weapons, ex primal weapons, but afaik, they're not upgradable (perhaps savage are? haven't tried savage myself). So the relic has two things going for it - 1.upgradable multiple times until at last, for an all too brief moment at the end of the xpac, it becomes the strongest weapon, and 2. special appearance - ie a permanent weapon glam for your collection once it's no longer usable itself.

Now, SE quite knowingly threw the relic weapons, and the new armors, plus a ton of collectible stuff, into this content, *knowing* that people regardless of their very vocal dislike for this type of content, would feel compelled to participate. And thusly, fluffing up participation numbers so that they could claim it to be a success, and be able to make as much of this uninspired, overly rng laden, vomitous excuse for content, as they please. I mean, the devs enjoy it, so therefore, so should the players, right? /s

People that like it, that's fine. Doesn't bother me a bit. My complaint is simply the locking away of a previously far more accessible questline for an upgradable weapon, behind content that I find sleep inducingly boring, and even worse, extremely physically painful (my wrists and hands, which I have problems with anyway).

Anemos was tolerable, even fun quite often (once I joined the NM train). Pagos? I set foot in there week 1, killed 1 mob, and after an eternity at that, and the realization that all the things that made Anemos tolerable/fun had been willfully, spitefully destroyed, I noped out and have not been back. Nor will I, not unless or until, it gets nerfed to the ground, or at the very least, brought to Anemos lvls.

Perhaps some may consider me a bit dramatic here, and more than touch cynical. And that's fair. I am extremely upset though, that I am most likely going to have to give this relic a miss.

TLDR: Relic is not *just* a weapon. It is a repeatedly upgradable weapon with a special appearance, that will eventually be the strongest. The rest, (and disclaimer here) was mainly my opinion, in which I make no claims to speak for anyone else, blah blah blah. I am simply including myself amonst the vocal dislikers of Eureka. ;P

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Originally Posted by Raven_Darkstar

Now, SE quite knowingly threw the relic weapons, and the new armors, plus a ton of collectible stuff, into this content, *knowing* that people regardless of their very vocal dislike for this type of content, would feel compelled to participate

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Um, there was no pre-existing (added this..) vocal dislike of the content. Pagos is disliked more because they made it a lot harder for people by seriously hampering the fate train in response how it trivialized the content. Most of the dislike really came with Pagos, which was an overreaction to anemos, possibly because Se listened too much to voices who disliked people leeching their way to relics. Diadem wasn't disliked for itself, but for design decisions about rewards like randomized stats and the 72 man battles. I mean, this was more or less experimental content to vary how people obtain relics.

Like it wasn't something like tossing hairstyles or minions into PvP, which is closer to what you mean. People knowing what the content is like and definitely disliking being forced to do it. Anemos is more a new quantitiy with each version. It's just in pagos they did what they did with heavensward rotations and skills, misread the player mood.

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Originally Posted by Raven_Darkstar

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there is other reason why relic is so important, unlike now on sb and the so delayed(and late) releases of eureka, on arr(starting on 2.2 since 2.0 and 2.1 didn't had tome weapons) and hw, it was the best choice to give multiple jobs a weapon whit not costing 1K of capped tomes(which cuts on your gearing your fav jobs whit current armor), yet here we either have(the ones who we hate it) to suffer eureka, or gear less jobs, yes, there is crafted armor to get you to ilvl unupgraded tome gear when they make the upgrade part avariable(if they repeat that's it, and we know they will), but not everyone is rich to buy those,, and even worse, it doesn't brings you to max ilvl(this affects 24 man gear as well) in case you want to do some ex trials, is common people sets up pf on max ilvl avariable to the majority of the playerbase at the time, or at least is on chaos datacenter

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Um, there was no pre-existing (added this..) vocal dislike of the content.

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Diadem, which died extremely fast.

They knew the players weren't very receptive to this style of content. This is probably why they shoved relics in there to get people to do it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I wouldn't want a mandatory poll. Like I said earlier, the devs could easily just encourage it, but don't force players to give feedback - that's just shooting yourself in the foot.

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Let's be real, it's too late now to change Pyros or the fourth installment from their planned release. So, I'd say it's a good time to have a real significant feedback so that they can adjust what big alternate content they have in store for the next expansion. At worst, people will massively dislike it, and it will help not making the same "mistakes".

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But they certainly can make it easy for players to provide honest feedback.

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It's very easy to post on the forum to provide your feedback, but people are lazy to not do it.