Dps As Healer

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

They can't take it out of the game (even though I'd really like that) anyway because MSQ/side quest fights would take forever or couldn't be done at all.

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To be fair, they can if they just make healer DPS spells scale off of Mind, but I imagine SCH is kinda making that one hard.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

To be fair, they can if they just make healer DPS spells scale off of Mind, but I imagine SCH is kinda making that one hard.

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Probably not hard at all they would just have to make sure the ID for Scholar is acknowledged by the new system.

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Originally Posted by seraf

Probably not hard at all they would just have to make sure the ID for Scholar is acknowledged by the new system.

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Mostly the fact that SCH still has the Intelligence traits makes me wonder if they can do something like that for class skills. It's really a case of whether the system allows such a thing to be done.

I know this sounds super awful but if I'm not in a good mood & I get a non DPS healer for something I know is very easy(nearly every 60 dungeon) & hp barely drops at all yet they're spamming heals or waiting 10s+ to cast one...places where no one actually needs healing, I usually start playing more recklessly since they can heal it anyway. Standing in AOEs, facing mobs at healers so they have to move out AOEs, going into DPS stance asap(as tank), I won't use defensive CDs, or I'll pull a larger amount than usual as they actually require healing but I usually do this anyway(I use CDs anyway just in case). Anything to make the healer be forced to do something, since you know, the entire party is working their butt off & this healer is basically being carried. Though the 3.5 dungeon bosses do seem to be a more healing requirement so that's nice.

Despite Yoshi P's hilarious "I hate Cleric Stance. . ." comment at PAX yesterday, he did say it won't be going away.

The real issue comes from the adopted all-or-nothing mentality many players adopt ("If you don't pull big, you're a terrible tank", "If you don't skip X mechanic, you're a terrible DPS", and "If you don't DPS as a healer, you're a bad one!")

Let me put it this way: If you don't perform your primary role, out of trying to perform a different one your job isn't designed to be, THAT is a problem. Now, it's not an excuse to underperform at all, so let that not be at all mistaken. But I'll take a tank that pulls what he can handle and still effectively perform his role over one that just pulls big "because" and expects someone else to bear the responsibility of it. Or a healer that can keep their party alive and remain adaptable to the situation, over one trying to chase parses or prove they're as good as, if not better than a DPS.

SCH however, is tough to apply this to as it's a healer born out of a DPS job. The reason why it excels at both is because it's designed for both. There's a part of me that would love to see this for Red Mage, but given how Yoshi P wasn't satisfied with the SCH/SMN split, and how the lines blur between DPS/Healer with SCH, I don't see that happening.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

I know this sounds super awful but if I'm not in a good mood & I get a non DPS healer for something I know is very easy(nearly every 60 dungeon) & hp barely drops at all yet they're spamming heals or waiting 10s+ to cast one...places where no one actually needs healing, I usually start playing more recklessly since they can heal it anyway. Standing in AOEs, facing mobs at healers so they have to move out AOEs, going into DPS stance asap(as tank), I won't use defensive CDs, or I'll pull a larger amount than usual as they actually require healing but I usually do this anyway(I use CDs anyway just in case). Anything to make the healer be forced to do something, since you know, the entire party is working their butt off & this healer is basically being carried. Though the 3.5 dungeon bosses do seem to be a more healing requirement so that's nice.

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I'm not picking on you, but this is rather petty to do. Let's say your healer's also not in a good mood, and now you've gone out of your way to do things to complicate matters for them. Perhaps they can't keep up and die, then the rest of the party dies, and they angrily leave the instance. . . Your selfish desire to force another player to do what you want them to do has not only affected both you and them, but the other 2 players that perhaps may have been performing their roles properly. In short, fighting fire with fire, or taking it upon yourself to determine what the other person should be doing is really just sabotaging your party's ability to succeed. Bad form.

As a DPS, I also DPS the bare minimum and then more if I want to. There, I said it.

To be honest, people need to stop keeping their heads in their asses. We're talking about group instances; if you have the time to comfortably press more buttons without killing anyone, then do so and help your team. If you're having a hard time just healing, it's ok not to DPS. However, most people are not going to suddenly appreciate healers afking for 10s periods just because Yoshi says "it's ok".

For the same matter, obviously people are not going to appreciate DPS that only 123 and can't even do a proper AoE rotation. Or a Tank that only Flashes to keep enmity. But "it's ok" guys, let's all just play how we want. No need to take your party into consideration as long as you're having fun. :)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm not picking on you, but this is rather petty to do. Let's say your healer's also not in a good mood, and now you've gone out of your way to do things to complicate matters for them. Perhaps they can't keep up and die, then the rest of the party dies, and they angrily leave the instance. . .

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Not commenting whether doing that is right or wrong, but they angrily leaving the instance counts as a win, healers are a dime a dozen in HW, easily replaceable, there are many other healers sitting out the 10-15 mins long queue that would probably do a better job than these afk healers.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Not commenting whether doing that is right or wrong, but they angrily leaving the instance counts as a win, healers are a dime a dozen in HW, easily replaceable, there are many other healers sitting out the 10-15 mins long queue that would probably do a better job than these afk healers.

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You're right. . . But let's try to keep that "expendable healers" mentality when Stormblood rolls around.

My bigger point is deciding you're going to MAKE the other player do more is a poor mindset, and very counterproductive to teamwork, and succeeding. Yes, plenty of times I've had to give more than 110% to make up for a lacking/lazy teammate, but most times, I want to win more than I want someone else to do their job right. Call me odd, but it's a selfish sense of cooperation.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

As a DPS, I also DPS the bare minimum and then more if I want to. There, I said it.

To be honest, people need to stop keeping their heads in their asses. We're talking about group instances; if you have the time to comfortably press more buttons without killing anyone, then do so and help your team. If you're having a hard time just healing, it's ok not to DPS. However, most people are not going to suddenly appreciate healers afking for 10s periods just because Yoshi says "it's ok".

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well to be fair a healer is there to heal and keep u alive XD and no sarcastics comments are gona change that role XD
everything else is just an extra element.

To be honest , if u spend 5 min more in a dungeon or 5 min more AFK in Idylshire is not gona change that much in your precious life :P

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

well to be fair a healer is there to heal and keep u alive XD and no sarcastics comments are gona change that role XD
everything else is just an extra element.

To be honest , if u spend 5 min more in a dungeon or 5 min more AFK in Idylshire is not gona change that much in your precious life :P

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5 mins each time over 1000 dungeons is 5000 minutes or 416 hours. It adds up if you keep being paired with healers who AFK because their role is too easy.

Well, If Yoshi said Healers are there to Heal there's only 1 solution they could do without changing any of the classes or removing anything and its to make monster hit EVERYONE hard so a healer is constantly healing to keep the party alive and cant even get the time to consider throwing in a debuff or damaging spell anywhere, The only problem is then is everyone will complain and cry "It's too hard waah waahh", Sadly the poor devs are stuck in a hard place with a bunch of ungrateful spoilt and self entitled players that they cannot win with any decision they make.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Well, If Yoshi said Healers are there to Heal there's only 1 solution they could do without changing any of the classes or removing anything and its to make monster hit EVERYONE hard so a healer is constantly healing to keep the party alive and cant even get the time to consider throwing in a debuff or damaging spell anywhere, The only problem is then is everyone will complain and cry "It's too hard waah waahh", Sadly the poor devs are stuck in a hard place with a bunch of ungrateful spoilt and self entitled players that they cannot win with any decision they make.

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Is it wrong that I would like that sort of challenge? I don't think most healers would be upset if the outgoing damage was actually something dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

well to be fair a healer is there to heal and keep u alive XD and no sarcastics comments are gona change that role XD
everything else is just an extra element.

To be honest , if u spend 5 min more in a dungeon or 5 min more AFK in Idylshire is not gona change that much in your precious life :P

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True, Healing is the Main Job for a Healer, but the fights in this game par Savage are so ridiculously undertuned, that non-DPS healers will find themselves not doing anything for the majority of the runs.

We can concede to the fact, that DPS that can't do acceptable DPS is a bad DPS. A tank that only spams Flash to keep enmity is a bad tank. But the Healer party is the only one justifying standing around for extended periods of time as good play.

Maybe Healing as a whole should be made more intensive for Stormblood? That way healers would actually have to actively Heal instead of either being asked to DPS or being a dead weight 50% of the time by lazing around.

I'm not gonna initiate a vote kick against non-DPS healers, but I'm not gonna acknowledge actively sitting on our hands over several GCDs as a "good" way of playing for any class.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Well, If Yoshi said Healers are there to Heal there's only 1 solution they could do without changing any of the classes or removing anything and its to make monster hit EVERYONE hard so a healer is constantly healing to keep the party alive and cant even get the time to consider throwing in a debuff or damaging spell anywhere, The only problem is then is everyone will complain and cry "It's too hard waah waahh", Sadly the poor devs are stuck in a hard place with a bunch of ungrateful spoilt and self entitled players that they cannot win with any decision they make.

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It's okay. We can leave the game as is. So broken and easy that you can drop tanks and healers and just DPS through mechanics with so little healing required that a fairy can do over 30% healing in the hardest current content. That way the healers who find it too hard to DPS can keep doing that and those who want to DPS things while healing, as intended, can do just that. Everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

You are talking about the same person that decided that the solution for AST problems for this expansion was giving him so many buffs that people would take it instead of WHM. I don't trust his judgement on class balancing since this Q&A.

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Coming from a community that wouldn't even give AST a chance until it was buffed to be as potent as a WHM. Not like the community can agree on something for even five seconds. :p I wonder if that's why the only suggestions Yoshida actually seems to entertain are silly things like glamour or mounts from the NA area?

The player-base is truly spoiled.

Still, all Yoshida said he really doesn't like cleric stance (probably doesn't actually have an issue with it, just what the player base has turned it into) and that healers are supposed to keep their party alive first. Then they can consider DPSing. He's making a comment how healers will sacrifice teammates for mistakes that were preventable, among other issues that do happen because "my healer DPS."

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Coming from a community that wouldn't even give AST a chance until it was buffed to be as potent as a WHM. Not like the community cam agree on something for even five seconds. :p I wonder if that's why the only suggestions Yoshida actually seems to entertain are silly things like glamour or mounts from the NA area?

The player-base is truly spoiled.

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Are you implying AST was anything but garbage until the buffs? Because what you had with an early AST was a crappier WHM with card buffs that did very little, took forever to draw and lasted barely any time or you'd have that plus a Scholar with weaker barriers and no fairy.

If you wanted a limited and gimped healer, AST was great in 3.0 and 3.1

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Are you implying AST was anything but garbage until the buffs? Because what you had with an early AST was a crappier WHM with card buffs that did very little, took forever to draw and lasted barely any time or you'd have that plus a Scholar with weaker barriers and no fairy.

If you wanted a limited and gimped healer, AST was great in 3.0 and 3.1

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SE had to reduce the AST's skill curve just to get people to play it because it wasn't friendly to use to a large group of people. AST shone on players that were solid healers that knew what you were doing- anything less and it showed quite starkly.

Even after the first round of buffs, a startlingly large amount of people were still unwilling to bring ASTs into content, despite being just as good as a WHM even then and shielding better than a SCH even then. Then 3.4 came and the buffs were just overkill and finally people started to take them.

So no, it's not about wanting a gimped healer, just sadly anything different gets shot down by the community.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Can I use this excuse to not keep BotD up? I'm having a bad day and it's just too much effort to manage all my oGCDs. What about defensive cooldowns? I just want to Fell Cleave for days and blowing Vengeance and Raw Intuition means more Fell Cleaves or Decimates.

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Tbh I wouldn't give someone crap if they were having a bad or an off-day and behaved like this, specially in content as facerolly as anything you can do through DF. If someone was really stressed out by wtv thing and they didn't wanna play super optimal, that's fine by me. I mean, it might get annoying to have your DF expert run take some more minutes, but wtv. I do care more about a person's emotional stability than their lack of optimal play affecting my casual faceroll run.

If this was in a raid group doing endgame content, then yeah, I would maybe have a problem, because efficiency matters much more there. But then again, a raid group usually also involves companionship, so I'd, again, be more concerned about their emotional well-being instead of pushing them to stress themselves further. I would probably suggest a break in that situation, though, instead of letting them play sub-optimally, cause it could be a potential waste of other 7 people's time.

As an addendum: I personally go into DF as SCH to DPS the crap out of everything as a way to relief stress when I'm not feeling well, mostly because I can p much play the class with my eyes closed for most DF content. BUT I do know a lot of healers who get very, very anxious about DPSing. So long as they don't the defend the "healers shouldn't DPS!" ideology, I'm fine if they're having an off-day and don't want to feel pressured.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

So no, it's not about wanting a gimped healer, just sadly anything different gets shot down by the community.

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I both agree and disagree with you.

Before the first round of buffs AST was just plain bad, there's no ifs or buts, it was inferior to both other healers and there was no reason to raid with it, after the first round of buffs AST became on par with the other healers, and here's where I agree with you that people went too stubborn, as usual people resist change, they saw WHM + SCH worked fine and saw no reason to replace either with AST, and it took until they pretty much broke AST in terms of support to finally be fully accepted.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Is it wrong that I would like that sort of challenge? I don't think most healers would be upset if the outgoing damage was actually something dangerous.

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Most of the healers that aren't comfortable dpsing I've come across aren't / wouldn't be able to handle healing intensive fights. So unless you want to wipe 5 times a dungeon while a healer struggles to keep you alive (which ALREADY happens sometimes) sure.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Most of the healers that aren't comfortable dpsing I've come across aren't / wouldn't be able to handle healing intensive fights. So unless you want to wipe 5 times a dungeon while a healer struggles to keep you alive (which ALREADY happens sometimes) sure.

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I get what you mean, but I'm a SCH main. I would be the one healing it.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Hey, it's my video and here's the original post about it:



I'm absolutely flabbergasted that some people still defent this kind of healer play as good healer play and valid play style. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png I didn't even have to cast a single Cure during the pulls...

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35% over heal is way too much for how good that tank was. You can achieve less over heal and still get dps time by actually letting the tank get down to like 50% or lower when its safe rather then bombarding him with heals.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

35% over heal is way too much for how good that tank was. You can achieve less over heal and still get dps time by actually letting the tank get down to like 50% or lower when its safe rather then bombarding him with heals.

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Yeah, my whole point was, I barely cast anything during the whole dungeon run, my activity was only 17%, and I was still overhealing for over 35%... That's how little healing is required for majority of the content, and that's how little a healer contributes in their party if they're not DPSing.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Before the first round of buffs AST was just plain bad, there's no ifs or buts, it was inferior to both other healers and there was no reason to raid with it

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I could give you a couple of reason I don't personally agree AST was inferior, just simply a difference in skill and available tools:

Essential Dignity: Up to 1,000 potency instant heal usable every 40 seconds. That alone offsets the healing potency differences.
Disable: Reduces 10% of all damage- originally this was next skill and not lasts for 6 seconds, so yes, it was a bit difficult to time, the fact it leaves supervirus usable, too, made it a pretty powerful asset.

However, after 2 years of the tried-and-true composition of WHM and SCH as well as Gordias Savage being more difficult, I could see why people opted to simply not take risks (which is what AST was to them- a risk). People were (and sometimes still are) stuck in the notion that WHM, AST and SCH have oh-shit heals that had been largely viewed as such in raid content (have seen this echoed on tanks as well with Hallowed, Holm and Living). IE: Benediction, Lustrate, Essential. AST doesn't have such a tool (well, now it arguably does since its healing potencies were increased, giving up less of a reason to really use essential outside of mistakes on most content).

Please note, I'm not trying to change your mind nor anyone else's, just a small explanation of why I choose to say what I have said. The changes would have been made anyway simply because of the fact that not everyone could equally pick up AST and play it. This is called lowering the skill ceiling and exactly what we are seeing in upcoming changes to role skills and skill updates and removals in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Vorx

Bourne_Endeavor
Likewise, my only requirement as a DPS is to deal damage.

I personally have gotten into a "war" with people over something like this, as a DPS style main myself i personally like Classes more since they are more like what a RDM will be, jack of all trade with the cross skills and all. As you said a DPS is just there to add damage, no set amount either, heck most runs could just be Tank and Healer, the two DPS are there for nothing but a bit of added damage nothing more nothing less.
I say if a Healer wants to attack for some DPS go for it, people need to remember the person playing that character can do whatever they want, THEY pay the sub, not you.

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If we're going to attempt that logic. Let's break it down. In a party of four, where three people want to move through the dungeon quickly, by refusing to DPS as a healer, you are holding them back. Why does your "playstyle" supersede theirs? Their combined sub is higher than yours.

See the faulty logic? Paying a sub entitles you to play the game. It doesn't dedicate you get to play it however you fancy. If it did, we could break it down further with extreme examples-- all of which are perfectly viable under the nebulous term "I pay my sub." You can't have it both ways. Either this is a team oriented game where everyone is expected to reasonably contribute or it isn't.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

If your main job really IS DRG you would know this is not entirely correct....especially lately. If you're a good dps you're paying attention to what the tank and heals are capable of and switching your targets constantly, so as not to pull aggro off undergeared/"not so qualified" tanks, or pick up targets that stray to healers that aren't able to control their aggro, for whatever reasons.

Mindlessly going through your dps rotation without regard to the rest of the party's situation makes you a bad dps.

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Read what you actually quoted. That statement came as a direct response to someone claiming healers should only heal because that is there role. I was being purposely facetious since no one is a good player if they ignore a portion of their abilities. Hence my point. I agree. That isn't what I should do nor do I. That then begs the question if you have those expectations for DPS roles why are healers exempt? Everyone should use their entire arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

We also need to remember that the devs are aware that a good chunk of people who choose to play a healer want to heal and don't care about DPS. If they wanted to DPS, they would have rolled a DPS class. They have access to better metrics than we ever will. I'm expecting the new content in Stormblood to be healing intensive enough to see that the healers who do DPS will be in the single digit percentile.

Oh and to the people who think that a healer who is not always casting is lazy... sometimes its nice to play a class where its not always 100% go go go go go. The little pauses are a nice stress reliever for those who want to have a nice job, keep people alive and relax. If your DPS players are complaining that the run is not going fast enough, dont look at the tank or healer to bolster your DPS, look in the mirror first.

Do I DPS? Sure do, when I want to or when I am comfortable doing so. I don't always do so, especially when I don't feel comfortable with the group and its dynamics. Though, even on those runs when I could DPS, sometimes I don't. Why? Well, because I got off of my full time job, finished taking care of my family and want to enjoy a nice dungeon run without the added stress of doing max numbers, perfect rotations and totally optimized performance. I do that enough in Savage raiding, sometimes I just want to chill.

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Why do you get to be special? As a DPS, I have to maintain a constant rotation every 2.5 seconds but you get to "not always be 100% go go go." As for bolster our own DPS...

Holy has a potency of 900 spread across six targets. Replacing a single Holy with Aero III bolsters that damage to 1170, provided the mobs live long enough. A combo chain of Heavy Thrust, Ring of Thorn and Doom Spike x4 has a potency of 960.

Please explain how I can make up what is essentially my own damage a second time over?

No one is asking you to fully optimizing, but we are once again back to why you get to be special? Neither tanks nor DPS get to use "I had a hard day" as an excuse to be less efficient. If you want to chill, run content with your friends. Jumping into a party of random players and willfully contributing less means you are placing yourself and your interests above theirs. There is a significant different between optimizing every single dungeon run and throwing out DoTs and Holys from time to time. The latter tells me you're at least trying. It doesn't need to be perfect, it's simply appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Can I use this excuse to not keep BotD up? I'm having a bad day and it's just too much effort to manage all my oGCDs. What about defensive cooldowns? I just want to Fell Cleave for days and blowing Vengeance and Raw Intuition means more Fell Cleaves or Decimates.

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You DO NOT know other people's mental states. For some people doing all these things on a bad day is fine, but when you're like me, and you struggle with depression, and chemical imbalances in your brain, a simple bad day can feel unnavigable. Those of us in that situation don't want to just drop everything and not do what they love, but it doesn't mean that we can always handle it. Honestly because of this, healing is the best job for me. It's much easier on my head to learn how to heal properly, then worry about learning a dps class, which focuses on the mathematical side of my brain. Try and realize that there is more to life than just yourself. If it were all about you, it'd be a single player game.

For once I don't plan on jumping headlong into this debate, but I did want to say that I'm encouraged by YoshiP's statement. Even as someone who does play optimally in our current meta I've been furiously argued with simply for wanting changes to healing design so that healers aren't DPSing so much and it's nice to see that even if changes aren't immediately coming, acknowledgement that the current meta is problematic is still a chance that a healing rework or better fight design might be on the way.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

You DO NOT know other people's mental states. For some people doing all these things on a bad day is fine, but when you're like me, and you struggle with depression, and chemical imbalances in your brain, a simple bad day can feel unnavigable. Those of us in that situation don't want to just drop everything and not do what they love, but it doesn't mean that we can always handle it. Honestly because of this, healing is the best job for me. It's much easier on my head to learn how to heal properly, then worry about learning a dps class. Try and realize that there is more to life than just yourself. If it were all about you, it'd be a single player game.

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You realize this statement is inherently hypocritical, yes? Why does your personal problems supersede mine or anyone elses? I don't know nor do I particularly care. That may sound blunt, however we all have personal gripes in some form or another. I dealt with depression too. I don't expect random people I meet in a game to cater to my potential problems or appreciate my decision to stand around and only heal, thus slowing them down. It's an entirely different scenario if you're new or inexperienced. Communicate that, and most people are receptive. How you factor a healer should contributed just as much as everyone else (i.e. not stand around doing nothing) is self-centered... makes no sense. There are three to seven other players besides yourself. Which is the crux of my point. The many outweigh the few, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

True, Healing is the Main Job for a Healer, but the fights in this game par Savage are so ridiculously undertuned, that non-DPS healers will find themselves not doing anything for the majority of the runs.

We can concede to the fact, that DPS that can't do acceptable DPS is a bad DPS. A tank that only spams Flash to keep enmity is a bad tank. But the Healer party is the only one justifying standing around for extended periods of time as good play.

Maybe Healing as a whole should be made more intensive for Stormblood? That way healers would actually have to actively Heal instead of either being asked to DPS or being a dead weight 50% of the time by lazing around.

I'm not gonna initiate a vote kick against non-DPS healers, but I'm not gonna acknowledge actively sitting on our hands over several GCDs as a "good" way of playing for any class.

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thats ok , tho always have in mind to be not inconvenient to your group ^^ i mean theres so many players with different play styles, mentalitys, and skills or awareness for whatever reason currently in RL someone has.
I can understand why it can be frustrating sometimes when u dont get what u want. It happens to me to.

But as community we can only grow , if we dont make us feel uncomfortable witch each other.
Mmmmh a healer whos uncomfortable with dpsing , is less likely to try to dps , as long theres people who start to immediately bitch coz the tank or someone else died if it happens XD

No one wants to play with someone whos constantly bitching around XD so dont make ur in game life hard by yourself :P

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm not picking on you, but this is rather petty to do. Let's say your healer's also not in a good mood, and now you've gone out of your way to do things to complicate matters for them. Perhaps they can't keep up and die, then the rest of the party dies, and they angrily leave the instance. . . Your selfish desire to force another player to do what you want them to do has not only affected both you and them, but the other 2 players that perhaps may have been performing their roles properly. In short, fighting fire with fire, or taking it upon yourself to determine what the other person should be doing is really just sabotaging your party's ability to succeed. Bad form.

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I am willing to admit that I am petty person. But I promise I don't let it ever get that bad. If I notice them struggling I won't purposely screw us up so we'd die, I'll use one of the many self heals/buffs I have to prevent this. As PLD or WAR it's easy to survive without a healer at all in at least half the 60 dungeons(all of them if you exclude bosses) so even if the healer did mess up I am confident the DPS & I would survive as I don't pull heavily with terrible DPS & outgoing mob damage is far too low in small packs. I know I'm just excusing my bad petty habit & I admit it is wrong but it has always worked out & it always will. Tanks are very powerful at mob survival. I have done full 60 dungeons as PLD with no healer & have healed them all as well so I know what can & can't handled. fully admit I'm being awful...It's inconsiderate to the healer but they're being inconsiderate themselves by barely performing. So...yeah fire with fire ruining team stuff I'm sorry >.<

But if the healer does leave, I can almost always just solo the dungeon anyway and I'd rather not carry 10-15s wait until my hp is 5K to heal people type healer :x

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Well, looks like Yoshi P said it.

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Yes, the debate is over. You heard it from the same guy who said he expects DPS to carry tanks that only do autoattacks and 1-2-3 aggro combo by pulling 85-90% of their theoretical calculated DPS potential:

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Yoshida: When we make battle content, first we determine a minimum assumed item level required to clear. Then, we determine the total amount of party damage required to clear, taking a minimal amount of damage from tanks and healers into account during this calculation.

What do you mean by minimal?

Yoshida: Basically it's the damage from tank auto-attacks and the basic skill rotation used in order to maintain hate. We add this to the party damage needed. However, we often use zero in the calculation for damage required from healers. In other words, we only take into account the amount of damage necessary to perform as a tank or a healer and we don't take them into account as actively participating in attacking. For the clear assumption on DPS, we calculate the 100% value for the item level and we reduce that by 10 to 15 percent for the amount required to clear.

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https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

Healers and tanks are leecher roles intended to ignore a good half of their skills by design, so please stop arguing now. Yoshi said so. If you're playing DPS, you may find that a teeny weeny bit unfair, but that's clearly just jealousy.

Also, don't lick this post or you may suffer from sarcasm poisoning.

I hope in 4.0 dungeon, we will have some heal intense dungeon while CS will be disabled

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

He said he doesn't like Cleric Stance. A healer is a healer. But if they took it away alot of people would get very upset.

Kind of took me by surprise. I thought he said that healers should do DPS if they can earlier. Now it sounded like he doesn't like that idea.
I'm confused.

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I'm not surprised. All the Jobs have a clearly defined role within the group.
The fact that players started using the tools they gave Healers for solo play in group play is quite literally a case of creative use of game mechanics on the part of the players.
Part of the fault for players doing that lies in the extreme raw power of healers on a per heal basis and the comparative lack of healing needed in dungeons and raids.
Though overgearing content is partly to blame too. Healers just need mechanics similar to AST cards, in that the healer can boost the party when its not actively restoring HP. That would have been a better route in general.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

He said he doesn't like Cleric Stance. A healer is a healer. But if they took it away alot of people would get very upset.

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Oh my I could only imagine the amount of salt that would come from that.

How about the just get rid of Cleric Stance, have jobs like whm based on your their mind stat. Then I could see the argument of being lazy for not dpsing when healing not needed cause you could do what ever is needed without having to worry about what stance you are in.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Healers just need mechanics similar to AST cards, in that the healer can boost the party when its not actively restoring HP. That would have been a better route in general.

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This statement confuses me, because ASTs still DPS just as much as their other healer counterparts even taking card fussing into consideration. "Just focus on using cards" isn't a community-accepted excuse for not DPSing any more than "SCHs just focus on using your fairy abilities" is.

Can you clarify what you mean by saying that?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I find it quite hilarious that the healers who only choose to heal also have the audacity to demand tanks rotate their CDs and DPS to avoid taking excessive damage. So which is it? Did you want something to heal or are you really just justifying being lazy?

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You do know that those things you're trying to vilify go hand in hand, right? Standing in the bad stuff as a tank means I'm either going to be dead, near death as a result, or something happens as a result that will make it a lot easier for me to die (see: vulnerability debuffs that can't be removed via Esuna/Leeches/Detriment). It's not just "take damage, get healed" like you're trying to paint it.

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Healing only is frankly pointless. Your only job is to make sure no one dies. It does not matter what health they are at as long as it's not 0. So then being good at healing beyond "keeping people alive" literally amounts to nothing in the progression of a fight. The boss won't suddenly surrender and submit to your supreme ability to "keep HP bars full". It doesn't make sense from a game or even real life prospective.

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Casting heals is only part of what people expect from a healer. Debuff removal and (where applicable) crowd control also come into the mix. Just because SE hasn't done it does not mean it doesn't exist.

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Increasing the healing intensity without understanding why it's currently low is also another point that needs to be made. There are people of varying skill levels. This is something I've learned as a cold hard fact and is borderline impossible to change. And frankly, with Survival being a constraint that needs to be met, akin to DPS checks, if it's too hard, then you will see success rates of content drop to abysmal levels. Healing downtime is an evil necessity so that even the poorest player has a chance. What you do with your downtime determines how good a player you are.

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This is where you can compensate via gameplay. Not all healers have to play like a WHM or SCH. People who liked to brag about their "skill" hated it, but smart heals would be a good way to draw in people who may find conventional healing more difficult. Or a healer more reliant on keeping HoTs up (think a resto druid) where upkeep of HoTs is supplemented by targeted heals.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Who's talking about e-peen DPS? People that want to DPS as a healer is because they want a faster and smooth run, they want to contribute to the group, not only to heal people. You're not any better than the people demanding healers to DPS 100% of the time. It's an option and some people want it.

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Except this causes healers to be one way or the other; there's no middle ground because you're terrible if you focus on healing and "good" if you DPS. If your entire argument for Cleric Stance hinges on the idea of doing above X DPS (because even in situations where you can't switch into Cleric Stance, you can still at least put an Aero/AeroII/AeroIII on the mob), then yes, you're focusing on e-peen and not something that is native to healer gameplay.

If you want a healer that deals damage as part of their gameplay, there are venues for that sort of thing. Just be prepared for the problems that come with that, like that class becoming mandatory if the meta were to allow it (becuz t3h d33pz), or for that healer to be weaker in certain ways to compensate (Disc Priests in WoW come to mind).

We can also talk about DPS skills as a mechanic advantage for healers. Use a DPS skill => get something that makes your heals better. That would help everyone adjust to using damage skills as a healer because it props up your primary function. I've mentioned it several times but no one seems to want to talk about that.

WHM and Astro are no longer healing classes. They Are DPS Classes with the best healing abilities in the game.
I've seen many WHM out-dpsing Pure DPS classes.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Tanks are very powerful at mob survival. I have done full 60 dungeons as PLD with no healer & have healed them all as well so I know what can & can't handled.

But if the healer does leave, I can almost always just solo the dungeon anyway and I'd rather not carry 10-15s wait until my hp is 5K to heal people type healer :x

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There in lies the problem, the needs for actual healing in HW has been lowered so low in dungeons that with an above average tank, its hardly needed. With an average tank, healing is needed a bit more and with a below average tank, healing needs are quite a bit more. The cause of the whole healers have to dps meta is partially due to the devs making content that requires less healing in HW than what was needed in ARR.

I want healing to be a bit more involved but don't want the devs to make the mistake Blizzard did in Cataclysm and make healers practically impotent and barely unable to keep people alive at the release. Blizz boosted healers quite a bit by the end of that expansion but a lot of damage was done to the healing community in the process.

Turn the dial up on healing needs but don't take it to 11.

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Originally Posted by Glenfiddich

WHM and Astro are no longer healing classes. They Are DPS Classes with the best healing abilities in the game.
I've seen many WHM out-dpsing Pure DPS classes.

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That is because people do not know how to play.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Except this causes healers to be one way or the other; there's no middle ground because you're terrible if you focus on healing and "good" if you DPS. If your entire argument for Cleric Stance hinges on the idea of doing above X DPS (because even in situations where you can't switch into Cleric Stance, you can still at least put an Aero/AeroII/AeroIII on the mob), then yes, you're focusing on e-peen and not something that is native to healer gameplay.

If you want a healer that deals damage as part of their gameplay, there are venues for that sort of thing. Just be prepared for the problems that come with that, like that class becoming mandatory if the meta were to allow it (becuz t3h d33pz), or for that healer to be weaker in certain ways to compensate (Disc Priests in WoW come to mind).

We can also talk about DPS skills as a mechanic advantage for healers. Use a DPS skill => get something that makes your heals better. That would help everyone adjust to using damage skills as a healer because it props up your primary function. I've mentioned it several times but no one seems to want to talk about that.

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what do you mean there is no middle ground? Am I supposed to be board and cast one spell every 5 minutes??