Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

People can't even read and understand simple PF comments so don't be surprised they didn't even see about cross class abilities.

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This isn't a single player game. If they belong to a FC they should learn about it from friends there. Discussions in our FC talk about lots of things including cross class skills that are important.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

This isn't a single player game. If they belong to a FC they should learn about it from friends there. Discussions in our FC talk about lots of things including cross class skills that are important.

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Exactly this 100%

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

This isn't a single player game. If they belong to a FC they should learn about it from friends there. Discussions in our FC talk about lots of things including cross class skills that are important.

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I guess it depends on what type of FC you are in. Mine doesn't recruit new players so, for us, cross class abilities is common sense and we don't need to discuss which ones are important cause we all know them already anyway.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

tbh the gameplay difference between GLD and MRD from level 1 to 22 is almost non-existent.

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This is basically my problem with it, actually. Having to do the same boring part of MRD leveling while not even having Overpower. zzzzzz

(though I do agree that Lancer is even worse somehow)

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

This isn't a single player game. If they belong to a FC they should learn about it from friends there. Discussions in our FC talk about lots of things including cross class skills that are important.

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While certainly practical, there's a slippery slope to this, e.g. why bother trying to perfect tooltips or quest descriptions, give a methodology for playing your job well, make lore accessible, or even learn a fight ingame if your FC, a webguide, and or the game's Youtube community can explain it to you instead?

Alternatively, how hard would it be to simply list all the Additional skills you can gather as your given class or job, what they do, and who they come from, right on the Additional panel (where the class selectors thereafter just filter those down), with key skills highlighted or under a "Recommended" tab. Similarly, highlight the Additional skills tab any time leveling up gives you an additional cross-class slot.

Better yet: why force all tanks to level the same particular one for a tank-swap skill, instead of them each having their own variant meant to best fit the job, then able to swap it out (new code) or take another atop it (standard cross-class) as they see fit?

As much as I'm a fan of class gameplay and incentives to level all combat jobs, I cannot deny that the current implementation of cross-class skills and their acquisition is unimpressive at best and annoying on average (at worst, I don't even know).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Better yet: why force all tanks to level the same particular one for a tank-swap skill, instead of them each having their own variant meant to best fit the job, then able to swap it out (new code) or take another atop it (standard cross-class) as they see fit?

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Cross class skills serve a purpose they force the exposure of different jobs on those who might only want to try one. I don't see this as a problem in the least but then again that's me. I've leveled all my roles and have multiple accounts. Perhaps that's not for everyone, but seriously this issue of having to level another role to get a cross skill is not a bad thing. One might find they like the job they're getting that skill from and should have a broader experience than just the one role they appear to think they want to do exclusively. At the very least it gives them an appreciation for the role they wouldn't have exposure to otherwise.

I see a trend here on this forum of wanting to skip story, wanting to skip leveling, wanting to skip the bother of getting cross skills they need for their job. Sorry but the end game isn't the panacea some would like to believe. Getting there is more than half the fun.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Cross class skills serve a purpose they force the exposure of different jobs on those who might only want to try one. I don't see this as a problem in the least but then again that's me. I've leveled all my roles and have multiple accounts. Perhaps that's not for everyone, but seriously this issue of having to level another role to get a cross skill is not a bad thing. One might find they like the job they're getting that skill from and should have a broader experience than just the one role they appear to think they want to do exclusively. At the very least it gives them an appreciation for the role they wouldn't have exposure to otherwise.

I see a trend here on this forum of wanting to skip story, wanting to skip leveling, wanting to skip the bother of getting cross skills they need for their job. Sorry but the end game isn't the panacea some would like to believe. Getting there is more than half the fun.

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Like I said, I'm all for that. I just think the current iteration of the cross-class system does a fairly poor job of it. Having a rough horizontal line-up of alternatives, where each job seems to give you an avenue into the role, was just one spitball design concept that I thought might be better. In many ways, I do honestly believe that end-game is where numerous positive elements of an MMO may necessarily (or just "if concerned with actual performance") die. I'm not asking for a removal here; I just think adjustment could benefit the feel of leveling, especially when not exclusively taking one class to 60 at a time (beyond the l15 offclass job requirements).

To take a similar example: people complained tremendously about the fatigue system, but had (1) base and/or fatigued EXP gains been boosted just a bit, and (2) fatigue was based on the relative intensity of recent exp gains in a particular class (such that gaining exp in any other class could extend the cap of the fatigued one), it could have done exactly what a lot of people were asking for: given the freedom to flesh out their self-made job through different classes, while pushing up class rank and physical level together and without holding back players who could invest more time in the game. Instead, the player polls were allegedly fixated on the removal of the system entirely, unwilling to hear any idea of adjustment.

Not gonna dwell on where I stand in this debate (read: vital abilities should not be cross-class abilities), and instead want to present a suggestion.

Pool the skills by category rather than by class. What I mean is that all DoW cross-class skills would be put in one category, separate from the abilities of your current class. Keep the class affinities intact (otherwise you end up with Raging Strikes PLDs and Stoneskin BLMs), but instead delay acquisition/access to those skills by 10 levels if you do not have the related class leveled. For example (since Provoke is the reason this thread was made), a MAR leveling has two options; either level GLA to 22 to get access to Provoke right away, or wait until the MRD/WAR hits lv32 before the ability becomes available for cross-classing in the DoW ability pool.

Ideally I would like to see all jobs get their own version of vital skills, but that'd require sacrificing one or two skills per class. Not sure how people would feel about that.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

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I knew it was there but dreaded doing it because it's the worst cross class to level. As a player you spend all this time leveling a tank and achieve max or close to max and suddenly... You have to go level practically the same class... At least with healers it's slightly different since your roles change and with dps rotations change.

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THM Swiftcast at level 26 would like to disagree with you 100%. At least with Gladiator, it's already level 15 if you're a Warrior, and you get instant pops for your dungeons. THM is about as boring as it comes before BLM Job, it's a dps so dungeon pops require long waits, AND you need 4 additional levels, vs provoke from gladiator. Not to mention there are other gladiator abilities you can cross over that would benefit you more so than THM to a healer.

I have all tanks and healers at 60. I've been through this.

One final point. All of you live in the age of Google. Do you not realize how powerful a tool it is? If someone can't bother doing any kind of research on the classes(Wikipedia's guide on each class tells you what is cross-class able as well as what the abilities do, and at what level), then you deserve to be sub-par. The most powerful tool ever given to a Generation, and they want everything handed to them. You would have been out of luck 20 years ago when you had to buy a gamer's guide, if there was even one at all. Otherwise you actually had to figure it out yourself through trial and error, or never complete it.

Common sense dictates that you should have Provoke whether you're doing casual content or hardcore content to me having a taunt as a tank is beneficial in any kind of setting, as for getting this ability yeah I do agree that SE should put something in the game to get said ability like "you should get provoke upon reaching lvl 30 on said class through Paladin".

Another route is just remove the cross class abilities and put in 5 new job abilities or traits while pruning their already overwhelming hot bar issue. If Provoke is removed then each class at lvl 10 can all get a taunt therefore eliminating the lvl 22 ability and solving another issue that this game suffers from an old 1.0 idea. Don't get me wrong cross class skills are very important but there's also some like Cure, Feint, Featherfoot, etc that are just not very good which is why we even need to have 5 in the first place when we only use 3-4 at the most.

Just change provoke to taunt and have it increase your threat for the next 4 seconds while it's fixated on you and that'll solve all the problems with swapping and not having this ambiguity for cross class skills.

Skipped a few pages so unsure if it has been said.

Just toss a Provoke action into the level 15 slot for WAR and DRK (ROG has two level 15 actions, for example) and take GLA's Provoke off of the Cross-Class table. Bam. No more "y u no have provoke?" drama.

It's funny reading all the posts treating this as some sort of problem that must be mitigated. It's nothing of the sort. The fact is that to be a well rounded tank, you need to experience being the tank in multiple ways, by doing so you can gain important skills that a more narrowly focused player will lack. In all honesty, this is something that is functioningas intended,and that's not a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The fact is that to be a well rounded tank, you need to experience being the tank in multiple ways, by doing so you can gain important skills that a more narrowly focused player will lack.

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I'm not sure if I buy this. Whether thee player gets the crucial skills from one class or three is sort of irrelevant as long as that player understands the principles behind the role of tank (hold aggro, don't stand in the bad stuff, don't die).

I'm also not a fan of making people do things they don't want to do, firstly because its easier to bore someone when they're doing something they hate, and secondly because I believe that one should pursue extra things out of their own volition and once they feel relatively satisfied with their "main" objective. I personally didn't start leveling other jobs until I was almost "done" working on my PLD. What really pushed me into doing it is that SE distributes the lore behind the game between class quests (which means I have to do them all to get the full picture). Additionally, I knew that in order to get a good grasp of mechanics and approaches to design (which then allows me to pollute the Class Role forums with job suggestions >.>), I needed to play the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I'm not sure if I buy this. Whether thee player gets the crucial skills from one class or three is sort of irrelevant as long as that player understands the principles behind the role of tank (hold aggro, don't stand in the bad stuff, don't die).

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it's un-needed for normal content, but for raiding, and end-game, you go the extra mile, why not buy into it, are not end-gamers meant to be the 'best' players?

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

Entitlement?! I know this is the buzzword of the decade, but I hardly think it applies here. The point is that cross-class abilities are not mentioned at all in-game. Heck, I found them by accident when I hit the wrong hotbutton and opened my abilities window. If they are important enough to be considered required, then they should at least get some sort of mention in-game that leveling alternate classes is about more than just opening the job you want.

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http://i.imgur.com/gBz9gKn.png

Not mentioned anywhere in game... except for in the games active help as a pop up as soon as you hit level 10 for the first time

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Originally Posted by Nihility

http://i.imgur.com/gBz9gKn.png

Not mentioned anywhere in game... except for in the games active help as a pop up as soon as you hit level 10 for the first time

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So after reading this, you really think that all new MRD players who just hit level 10 will suddenly say to themselves "Oh, gotta absolutely pick the other tank job up to see what useful tanking skills I can get !" ? Maybe ! Maybe they will, so they'll level GLD up to 10 and see that they can cross-class Savage Blade, which definitely comes in handy as a MRD. The only way to see that they can cross-class Provoke is to either actually hit level 22 as GLD and see that it appears in the cross-class abilities list, or to read all of your skills tooltip to see that some are usable by every class in the game and two Jobs, which is a little too much of an expectation towards a brand new player to the game. This shitty pop-up tutorial at level 10 is far from being enough for people to actually KNOW that they HAVE to take Provoke from level 22 GLD. Most of the time new players will know that when another player actually TELLS them, or when watching a guide on the internet, which not everyone does. They should AT LEAST put a message on the level 30 job quest as I've said, or put it as a requirement for unlocking the job crystal. They also could improve the cross-class skills interface by already displaying all the skills you can get from all the classes without having to actually level them first, with a special highlight on what is heavily recommended for each job. There is plenty of solutions, not that hard to implement.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

it's un-needed for normal content, but for raiding, and end-game, you go the extra mile, why not buy into it, are not end-gamers meant to be the 'best' players?

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There really isn't enough variance between the three tanks to really give advantage to leveling all three in terms of really understanding your role.

I can see how going from WAR, who is often optimally played as a brawler and is often best played just short of exhausting your healer, to PLD with its complete lack of AoE that makes doing whatever you can to allow the healer his extra mile of extra-role functions, can be helpful. But you can as easily learn that balance on Warrior itself, or Dark Knight; they all teach you equally how much of an enmity margin you should have, how to make use of your dps opportunities, how to maximize others', how to save lives, how to optimize on raid dps, etc. There's just not that big of a gameplay difference between them.

In most cases, you'd be better off playing a healer or dps for your next view into what it means to be a tank.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

So after reading this, you really think that all new MRD players who just hit level 10 will suddenly say to themselves.

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^

Especially when it'll take more than double the levels they just got in order to, say, grab Provoke?

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

So after reading this,you really think that all new MRD players who just hit level 10 will suddenly say to themselves "Oh, gotta absolutely pick the other tank job up to see what useful tanking skills I can get !" ? Maybe ! Maybe they will, so they'll level GLD up to 10 and see that they can cross-class Savage Blade, which definitely comes in handy as a MRD. The only way to see that they can cross-class Provoke is to either actually hit level 22 as GLD and see that it appears in the cross-class abilities list, or to read all of your skills tooltip to see that some are usable by every class in the game and two Jobs, which is a little too much of an expectation towards a brand new player to the game. This shitty pop-up tutorial at level 10 is far from enough for people to actually KNOW that they HAVE to take Provoke from level 22 GLD. Most of the time new players will know that when another player actually TELLS them, or when watching a guide on the internet, which not everyone does. They should AT LEAST put a message on the level 30 job quest as I've said, or put it as a requirement for unlocking the job crystal. They also could improve the cross-class skills interface by already displaying all the skills you can get from all the classes without having to actually level them first, with a special highlight on what is heavily recommended for each job. There is plenty of solutions, not that hard to implement.

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Bad players will be bad. The game tells you what to look for and how to use it.
It gives full display of all learnable skills for all classes to anyone willing to look. It shows you how to find and use your skills list and how to use cross class abilities
It actively tells you what classes each job can cross class from as you obtain them
If you have no desire to even give the skills a glance over of the classes your forced to play to unlock a job and then told they're your sources of cross-class skills, how helpless are you really?

the term "entitled" is used for good reason. The game gives you all the tools you need to figure out how to play it and even has an entire community of players willing to help if there are questions.
Yet so many people act like every tiny aspect of every single thing should be spelled out and rewarded like the playerbase is a kindergarten class instead of people who have developed problem solving skills.

Should the game also remind you to eat, breathe, and sleep? Can't have people suffocating because there's no forced tutorial on it

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Why anyone would think an aquireable crossclass skill is not important to be efficient in their role is beyond me... I would hope they learn that lesson while equipping bloodbath and foresight while leveling on their gladiator in order to become a warrior but I guess for the players you are talking about they are going to need to actually use the mentor system cause they are going to be clueless about anything under these circumstances unless the skill is flat out given to them.

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Are you saying Cure is important to be efficient as a PLD?

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Are you saying Cure is important to be efficient as a PLD?

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Dunno about you but I've had enough occasions in leveling dungeons paired with healers that can't get a grasp on "don't stand in red" that riot blade + cure is what got the group through to a victory
That I consider it a cross-class slot well filled

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Are you saying Cure is important to be efficient as a PLD?

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Cross class cure on PLD has its use to trigger Divine Veil with low mp usage in case the healers are dumb.. But no... It's far from being efficient..

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Dunno about you but I've had enough occasions in leveling dungeons paired with healers that can't get a grasp on "don't stand in red" that riot blade + cure is what got the group through to a victory
That I consider it a cross-class slot well filled

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Ah, never had healers that bad. Only ever used when solo if chocobo was slacking.

As for comment about Active Help, don't think it would help much. Half the questions I see in Novice Network were answered by AH, but people turn it off after first message and never see any future ones.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

The game gives you all the tools you need to figure out how to play it and even has an entire community of players willing to help if there are questions.

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So good game design for you would be:
No markers whatsoever, no names for NPCs (You can talk to everyone and remember the names - they will introduce themselves. Once.). No manual provided for controls and movement sits on 1234 for directions, rather than WASD. Tooltips only state:"Does stuff.", you can sift through the combat log (Which, naturally, isn't in the game but a file in a folder) to see what it does after. No map either, you can draw that yourself. Quests only tell you who to talk to, not where s/he is.

All tools provided! No clarity or intuitive design whatsoever, though.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Dunno about you but I've had enough occasions in leveling dungeons paired with healers that can't get a grasp on "don't stand in red" that riot blade + cure is what got the group through to a victory
That I consider it a cross-class slot well filled

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I did a solo Cutter's Cry Chimera on PLD once while leveling (rest of the group left, never refilled) by means of Cure between Chimera casts and a fair bit of Riot Blade, but even then I can't say I don't find it lacking. Were it merely to scale with physical weapon damage instead (or if the physical/magical damage distinction was removed, and caster strength just nerfed a bit if we really find caster auto-attacks that fearsome and overpowered), that'd be a huge boon, and maybe make it worth taking as a efficient alternative to Clemency when you absolutely cannot attack and the ally doesn't have enough health for Stoneskin to pay off.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

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I fully agree with all of that, but the thing is that the majority of new players won't even remember what they read on that little window which pops at level 10 or won't even read at all. There is also the thing that once, as a new player, you look at cross-class skills, for the majority of them it's not really game-breaking, most of them are completely useless (savage blade, skull sunder, impulse drive, cure, raise, and so on), and only a few of them bring most of the time very basic DPS boosts (B4B, IR, Raging Strikes, Hawks Eye, Invigorate, Mercy Stroke), or defensive abilities to get more survivability (Second Wind, Keen Flurry, Foresight, Bloodbath, Convo, Awareness, Mercy Stroke). Provoke is the ONLY exception to this, being a MANDATORY tanking skill which has NO REASON not to be included into EVERY tanking classes' BASE toolkit. It's just like if DRK didn't have Grit and had to cross-class Shield Oath instead. It's the EXACT same thing. It's just plain ridiculous and new players shouldn't be expected to guess by themselves that such an important tool for their role is missing and needs to be obtained from another class to even be viable at end-game.

Tho, as I said before, they could just improve the way that the game introduces you to cross-class abilities. I think that just putting this shitty pop-up at level 10 isn't enough because when you're only level 10, firstly you still don't have access to changing classes (you can only do that once you reach a certain point in the story which is closer to level 14-15 than 10), and secondly most people don't even want to try other classes, they want to see more about their current class, they want to level up and progress the story. So they think "I'll do that later", but most of the time they'll forget about it or don't even think that cross-class abilities are THAT important until they run into someone who tells them. If they improved that, by atleast putting a message on the level 30 job quest saying something like "Warning, if you don't have Provoke from the Gladiator class you'll have a hard time with other people !", THEN, we, as veteran end-game players, would have all the rights to EXPECT these new players to have read this message and get the Provoke.

I thought changing classes was unlocked by lvl 10 class quest.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I thought changing classes was unlocked by lvl 10 class quest.

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Isn't it unlocked by the story quest which lets you go visit the other capital cities ? If it's not, it doesn't change anything to what I've said tho since MRD and GLD have different starting cities anyway so you can't look up for GLD skills until that point in the story. Limsa only has MRD, Arcanist and ROG.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So good game design for you would be:
No markers whatsoever, no names for NPCs (You can talk to everyone and remember the names - they will introduce themselves. Once.). No manual provided for controls and movement sits on 1234 for directions, rather than WASD. Tooltips only state:"Does stuff.", you can sift through the combat log (Which, naturally, isn't in the game but a file in a folder) to see what it does after. No map either, you can draw that yourself. Quests only tell you who to talk to, not where s/he is.

All tools provided! No clarity or intuitive design whatsoever, though.

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so your saying you like to over-react and jump to ridiculous extremes?
I haven't said any of those things. The active help is always there to go back to as a reference
The ability's list is always there as a reference and the active help tells you how to use it
It goes far enough to tell you how to use everything, why does it need to hold your hand and pick your skills for you?
Provoke isn't even necessary for anything outside of the content meant for skilled players, Skilled players don't need hand holding. They'll read their combat logs and converse with their groups and figure out what is wrong and how to fix it. These aren't even resources outside of the game, it is all there to see and use

The majority of what you said is just ridiculous nonsense no one has ever mentioned

If your the type that immediately cancels active help and gets defensive when others try to offer help, It doesn't matter what the game does. You still won't figure it out and resort to complaining and spouting nonsense instead of valid arguments

So it comes to my attention that people pointed out for those tanks-without-provoke to be blunt ignorant by not reading the tooltip/trying to find what crossclass skills that can be available for a job..
In regards to that, provoke isn't even displayed in WAR/DRK's skill windows if one hasn't leveled gladiator to lv 22 and acquired it, simple solution on this case would be making all cross class skill available being displayed in the additional skill windows but not selectable until one reach the requirement level in that specific class.. So why isn't this a thing? It makes the information displayed better Just as what Freyyy suggested in the previous page.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

They also could improve the cross-class skills interface by already displaying all the skills you can get from all the classes without having to actually level them first, with a special highlight on what is heavily recommended for each job. There is plenty of solutions, not that hard to implement.

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Note however the unacquired class skills are greyed out if player has yet to meet the level requirement, but this isn't the case in crossclass skill windows..

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Isn't it unlocked by the story quest which lets you go visit the other capital cities ? If it's not, it doesn't change anything to what I've said tho since MRD and GLD have different starting cities anyway so you can't look up for GLD skills until that point in the story. Limsa only has MRD, Arcanist and ROG.

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It is unlocked at level 10 but players can only change to a class which reside in their default hometown hence the 3 cities voyage in MSQ

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

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^ This ! This is a solution I already gave in a previous post, it wouldn't be hard to implement at all and it wouldn't change anything to the actual process of unlocking cross-class skills. It would just improve the display of it, that way a new player would be able to look at all the available cross-class skills for its job and see what they should aim for to optimize their job. I don't understand why it isn't the case already.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

It is unlocked at level 10 but players can only change to a class which reside in their default hometown hence the 3 cities voyage in MSQ

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It is possible to travel between Uldah and Gridania before airship, just a little hazardous at low level without escort.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

I haven't said any of those things.

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No, they are implied by your mocking of intuitive design, clarity and game flow as "entitlement". Is expecting the game to tell you exactly how to move or what your skills do somehow not "entitled"? Is making NPC names obvious from afar somehow not "entitled"?

Logically, you cannot oppose one but not the others because the underlying design principles are one and the same. So pick a side and stop applying arbitrary double standards.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I fully agree with all of that, but the thing is that the majority of new players won't even remember what they read on that little window which pops at level 10 or won't even read at all. There is also the thing that once, as a new player, you look at cross-class skills, for the majority of them it's not really game-breaking, most of them are completely useless (savage blade, skull sunder, impulse drive, cure, raise, and so on), and only a few of them bring most of the time very basic DPS boosts (B4B, IR, Raging Strikes, Hawks Eye, Invigorate, Mercy Stroke), or defensive abilities to get more survivability (Second Wind, Keen Flurry, Foresight, Bloodbath, Convo, Awareness, Mercy Stroke). Provoke is the ONLY exception to this, being a MANDATORY tanking skill which has NO REASON not to be included into EVERY tanking classes' BASE toolkit. It's just like if DRK didn't have Grit and had to cross-class Shield Oath instead. It's the EXACT same thing. It's just plain ridiculous and new players shouldn't be expected to guess by themselves that such an important tool for their role is missing and needs to be obtained from another class to even be viable at end-game.

Tho, as I said before, they could just improve the way that the game introduces you to cross-class abilities. I think that just putting this shitty pop-up at level 10 isn't enough because when you're only level 10, firstly you still don't have access to changing classes (you can only do that once you reach a certain point in the story which is closer to level 14-15 than 10), and secondly most people don't even want to try other classes, they want to see more about their current class, they want to level up and progress the story. So they think "I'll do that later", but most of the time they'll forget about it or don't even think that cross-class abilities are THAT important until they run into someone who tells them. If they improved that, by atleast putting a message on the level 30 job quest saying something like "Warning, if you don't have Provoke from the Gladiator class you'll have a hard time with other people !", THEN, we, as veteran end-game players, would have all the rights to EXPECT these new players to have read this message and get the Provoke.

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I think your main confusion is your mixing end-game skilled content with unskilled new players.
An experienced, skilled player should be able to figure out the necessity of certain cross class skills and be willing to put out the effort to obtain them. The only things that ever really need those skills are the end-game raids designed for skilled players after all.
If you look at it none of the 24 man stuff really has anything provoke is needed for, deep dungeon doesn't need it, none of the 4 man content needs it, nothing with hunts needs it, none of the normal mode trials need it, the story raids don't need it

Which is true for a lot of things; some fights awareness is a necessity, Invigorate is considered a necessity pretty often, swiftcast is considered a necessity, stonekin and all of the dps buffs are considered necessities.
But when your doing the content not designed for the highly skilled players. You don't encounter "I only land crits" Adds, or need to be tank swapped debuffs, or dps checks that require buffs and invigorate, or the need to pre-stoneskin, or incoming damage so high that it prohibits hard-casting a res.
Even the vast majority of used to be cutting edge stuff gets cleared because groups can brute force it with gear and the echo instead of mechanical skill

People at the level to need those skills should also be at the level to be able converse with others and be able to learn and grow.


There will always be the "lies about skill level in party finder, unwilling to learn, unwilling to be taught" people. But i can guarantee you they are the problem, not the game

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Originally Posted by Nihility

There will always be the "lies about skill level in party finder, unwilling to learn, unwilling to be taught" people. But i can guarantee you they are the problem, not the game

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In which, those tanks could also blame the game for providing little information about it and we lose more tanks in circulation including for those contents that doesn't even require provoke to be used.. Hence tanks always be the adventure in need..

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Originally Posted by Nihility

I think your main confusion is your mixing end-game skilled content with unskilled new players.
An experienced, skilled player should be able to figure out the necessity of certain cross class skills and be willing to put out the effort to obtain them. The only things that ever really need those skills are the end-game raids designed for skilled players after all.
If you look at it none of the 24 man stuff really has anything provoke is needed for, deep dungeon doesn't need it, none of the 4 man content needs it, nothing with hunts needs it, none of the normal mode trials need it, the story raids don't need it

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The thing is that when new players reach end-game, they are still new and while not especially "unskilled" (a new player can be very skilled but just lack experience and knowledge in that specific game, but since he's very skilled he will learn very quickly and reach the top-level of players in no time as long as he's given the tools to learn), still lack knowledge. If they want to get into the end-game, made for "skilled" players like you said, they have to get that knowledge, and that's where the problem lies. You either need another player to tell you that you need that specific level 22 GLD ability for those fights, or need to watch guides on the internet. It's not like other cross-class abilities like B4B or Invigorate which are tied to 0 battle mechanic whatsoever, these are just basic DPS increasing abilities, or utility abilities such as swiftcast. Provoke has entire encounter mechanics based around it, things forcing tank swaps and whatnot. Such a skill should be included in every basic tank toolkit, but since it is not, they should atleast improve their way to tell new players that they need it instead of just putting a pop-up at level 10 that doesn't even suggests that you can get such an important ability from another class. Looking at guides on the internet or ask other people shouldn't be a necessity in order to learn the game properly. Guides or other people's advices should only be here for optimizing your gameplay, learning specific fight mechanics and stuff, but not to learn such a basic thing as "get that level 22 GLD skill".

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback? Making provoke more visible to new players isn't hand-holding, it is intuitive design that doesn't dumb the game down in any way. Yes there is active help (not intuitive design), but for such a vital skill as provoke, the game should offer something a little more obvious so that problems CANNOT happen (you can't have both freedom of choice, and mandatory at the same time).

But omg terrible players right? They should stop playing tank and uninstall the game

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback?

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That's a question I'm asking myself a lot when reading threads in this forum

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback?

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

That's a question I'm asking myself a lot when reading threads in this forum

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Somehow design mantras like "'you're leaving the objective area' is a failure of game design" come to mind, but in fact it's probably more alike to the difference in resolution.
You can do a good job, or you can just do the job well enough. But in either case, it's not like later improvements aren't an option...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback? Making provoke more visible to new players isn't hand-holding, it is intuitive design that doesn't dumb the game down in any way. Yes there is active help (not intuitive design), but for such a vital skill as provoke, the game should offer something a little more obvious so that problems CANNOT happen (you can't have both freedom of choice, and mandatory at the same time).

But omg terrible players right? They should stop playing tank and uninstall the game

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I had to walk to school uphills both ways, so you should too.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I had to walk to school uphills both ways, so you should too.

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reminds me of people who say "FFXI didn't hold my hand, so intuitive design is bad" as though FFXI is a game that is the pinnacle of game design. What is the downside of the suggestions given? (provoke swapped with FoF, a message telling the player about provoke upon lvl 30, giving each tank their own provoke etc.)

"I had to go through a flawed system, so the system shouldn't be improved" is a terrible comeback :P

EDIT: It is possible you were being sarcastic, but the point still stands to others if you were