Why not just make everyone a DPS?

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Izsha says the current meta is a "design choice", not a "design flaw". I counter by saying that the current meta is NOT how the developers actually intended it to be. It doesnt mean it's wrong/bad, but I don't think it was truly their choice how things have developed.

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It is a design choice. If SE wanted to strip away or make DPS impossible for Tanks / Healers they could. Increase MP on healer's DPS spells to the point where it takes a lot of MP and would run them dry fast. Throw up a damage taken increased % on PLD's and WAR's offensive stances while tuning bosses and even normal monsters to throw out higher consistent damage that would force them to stay in their tanking stance as well as forcing healers to use their abilities to keep their tanks alive instead of passive healing that allows them to damage. But they don't do this because the game wasn't designed with that in mind and was in fact made for people that like casual play and in reality is mirroring ideas that were set into motion years ago in FF 11 when they started easing up on the games difficulty and borrowing ideas from WoW..

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I would add to the counter by also saying it seems to make tanks kind of an afterthought. Right now a "tank" is basically just a dps with defensive cooldowns instead of offensive. To me it's one thing when a game has you swapping a few things to get a bit of extra damage, and another when the tanks are playing and gearing essentially identically to dps.

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Every tank that does damage is a DPS with defensive abilities. Even if their doing 1 damage by just poking, their still adding onto raid damage and if their not taking heavy amounts of damage to require them to stay defensive, their always going to ease up on it to increase their dps. Maybe the next tank made will be one that 100% kills off a tanks damage and instead requires them to sit around casting abilities to negate damage and generating threat by casting spells that don't do almost nothing to bosses other than....generate hate.

The fights are designed with tanks in vit gear. Trouble is we are trying to do them many ilvls short of what they were designed to be. The devs didn't tune A1 to be done at i180 ish, but that's what we were when it was released. So if we are undergeared, then the dps can't meet the dps checks the fight is tuned for. The only way to do it is with min maxing healer and tank dps to augment the crappy ilvl and do it with stuff like penta meld accs and such.

As I said earlier, if you want to turtle tank that's fine, but you will have to sit on you hands until people are at the ilvl the fight is actually tuned for. And considering most players aren't nearly goood enough to beat the fights at the minimum tuned ilvl, you will have to sit around and gear up your team even more to successfully turtle tank with a more avg quality group.

If you want to be part of the elite 1st wave you have to squeeze more out of every job. That means damage. If you have an A rate team you can turtle tank at the designed tuned ilvl. If you're team is of avg level then you will have to OVERGEAR the content to turtle because most people can't hack optimal play.

The fights are designed to be beatable by the best players at a specific ilvl in turtle gear. If you aren't the best team or proper ilvl then tough titties. Get some more gear and/or skills in your team. If you want to push the envelope then you have to lush your own envelope.

If your team is 1 or both of:
*below designed ilvl
*not the best players in the world

Then you will fail dps checks because they are DESIGNED to be harder than what you can muster in that state. The only way to have turtle tanks work in undergearsd/underskilled groups than the fight is tuned to is to soften the dps checks. That defeats the purpose of tuning the fight I'm the 1st place. The tank meta is this way because it's the ONLY way to beat a fight below it's designed tuning. If people don't try fights above their ilvl/skill then you don't have to tank dps. But you can't have it both ways.

An all dps game? like PSO2 you mean?

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Originally Posted by Izsha

snip.

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+1.

Not to mention it's been this way in all MMOs with a heavy emphasis on raiding in the first weeks of a hard tier's release (exceptions withstanding, like 1 tank strats or easy tiers). It is simply the nature of a hard DPS check.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

It's not that black and white. The problem isnt that tanks don't find it fun to max their dps - it IS fun, it's part of optimising the class. The problem is that a lot of people who play tanks play it because they love the feeling of being tough and unkillable, and they like gear upgrades to feel like they're increasing their survivability and making them easy to heal.

The current FFXIV tanking meta has tanks tryign to get away with as little health as they possibly can, use DPS accessories rather than tank ones, and spend as much time as possible in DPS stances, forgo tanking debuffs like storms path/rage where possible, all in the name of max DPS. This is what feels UN FUN to me.

I want to do as much DPS as possible, yes, but I hate the feeling that I'm having to make a conscious decision to make myself harder and harder and harder to heal in order to do that. I'd much rather if optimising DPS was done via mastering a complicated rotation rather than making so many tradeoffs on the "power fantasy" that a lot of tanks prefer.

I'm sure most DPS players would hate it if they kept having to sacrifice huge amounts of crit or strength in order to stack Vitality for raiding.

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Quoting this for posterity. And I agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

To all you non-Warriors complaining:

2 months ago, I received a whole new set of abilities focused around a new stance, new combos and synergy to master and explore.
Is it really aftecting you so much that you start a whimper thread about it for me and others like minded to play our new class to its max potential?

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Under normal circumstances? You're right in that there's nothing wrong with you doing what you do if you find it fun. The problem is this:

We (the other tanks) are now being compared to you, despite you doing something we other tanks didn't sign up for. You're also necessary for progression, in part because you do what you do. That's where the issue comes from.

Personally, if stance-swaps are to be a warrior thing, that's fine. I have no problem with it since it is in part something that helps set the job apart from the other tanks. Now if they (the devs and the other players) insist on it being a thing for PLD and DRK and whatever other future tank joins us, then we're having a problem. And under that notion, it's easier to knock you down or rebalance you so that stance-swaps and using DPS accessories puts you in a comparable place to the other tanks over the rest of us being turned into some version of you.

Personally I feel like Warriors are superbly well balanced. They're a great class, don't need any nerfs and seem to be really fun for the players who like that kind of aggressive playstyle. They do okayish damage in pure tank stance, can stance dance easily in safer situations to really pump out good tank dps, and in an Offtank role they do just a little bit less damage than the more support-focussed DPS classes. They don't really have any irrelevant or clunky skills. Noone in this thread is calling for Warrior nerfs.

The issue is more that we've been told that Warrior's "niche" is being the tank the does dps. Paladins and Dark Knights have a niche of being able to take more physical or magical damage respectively, although as maths have proven the difference in mitigation is very very little, and is more an ease of use thing. It's fine really, but due to how all the current tough raid encounters are all about hard DPS checks, the stuff that non-warriors bring to the table is basically irrelevant for most raid groups right now. "Don't mind that our MT does 100 less dps, she has Divine Seal!".

To all the people saying that it's about playing your class to its fullest, l2dps and suck it up etc : I get that, and I do. All of us tanks going through Savage Alex right now are focusing on maxing our DPS. We're not being bads, we're not taking a stand and forcing our raid groups to let us tank in vit gear doing 200 dps.

We're questioning why DPS output is the ONLY thing we're being tested in. People say that "we're undergeared" compared to the tuning of the encounter and thus tanks need to step up DPS to help the raid hit targets. I ask this : if we're undergeared for the encounter tuning... why are we not being tested on our ability to TAKE DAMAGE? Why are we not having to weave stoneskins between big boss attacks and keep cooldowns rolling 100% of the time, why are we not dropping dead if a healer spends half their time DPSing? Why are we able to spend half an encounter in Sword Oath and go in with 16k health?

If we can go into current encounters "undergeared", and complete them successfully in DPS gear and DPS stances, all that shows me is that the fights are completely undertuned when it comes to testing the tank's tanking ability, and there's literally zero reason for me to care about my survivability. All i need do is go in like a glass cannon DPS and pop a cooldown at the right moment. Is this bad or wrong game design? Not really, it's just a little unexpected for some people.

Is it fun to max DPS? Yes. It's always fun to push the limits of a class. But where's my incentive to make myself tougher? It's a design decision, and it's one that half the players like, and half the players seem not to. I doubt it will change, and whining about it on the forum wont necessarily do anything. I'm still going to be going into Alex Savage again tonight in strength spec with sword oath readied and a stack of HQ Strength pots. It's fine to have encounters that focus on DPS.

But I'd like one or two that massively test my ability to take damage when undergeared too, please. I guess Alex 2 is kinda close to that, albeit a bit weird due to tachikoma stuns and an ideal want for high AOE dps from tanks too. I hope people know what I mean though. There's only four tough raid encounters in the game right now - I just hope the next set of raids are less like Alex 1/3 as far as tank expectations.

Look at all the "git gud" comments on every thread :
What is a good DPS ? Someone who master its rotation so that it can dish enormous amount of damage.
What is a good tank ? Someone who masters its cooldown so that it can dish good amount of damage.
What is a good healer ? Someone who masters its spells so that it can dish good amount of damage.

Isn't something a little bit...off, there ?

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Originally Posted by Izsha

The fights are designed with tanks in vit gear. Trouble is we are trying to do them many ilvls short of what they were designed to be. The devs didn't tune A1 to be done at i180 ish, but that's what we were when it was released. So if we are undergeared, then the dps can't meet the dps checks the fight is tuned for. The only way to do it is with min maxing healer and tank dps to augment the crappy ilvl and do it with stuff like penta meld accs and such.

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It's bad design because only the dps is being tested, not anyone else. Why is the test of a tank how much dps can you do, not how well can you reduce incoming damage? Why is the test of a healer how much dps can you do, not well can you optimize healing output? It's bad design when you have 3 roles and only one of them matters at all in a raid. It's bad design when a tank can gear in tank gear and be told by the community he's bad because he didn't gear in gear that he's not even allowed to roll on.

It goes back to the topic title, if we're going to accept this bad design for encounters then why no just give up this farse of multiple roles and make everyone a dps?

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

But I'd like one or two that massively test my ability to take damage when undergeared too, please. I guess Alex 2 is kinda close to that, albeit a bit weird due to tachikoma stuns and an ideal want for high AOE dps from tanks too. I hope people know what I mean though. There's only four tough raid encounters in the game right now - I just hope the next set of raids are less like Alex 1/3 as far as tank expectations.

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Judging by your post you know the answer to your problem. If a DPS check is tight, the value of a DPS centric tank's value increases. You'll then work around their inferior mitigation relying on the skill of your tanks and healers, due to the amount of tools each player has access too. There is no other way to work around a DPS check.

If the DPS check isn't as tight - as in a coordination based fight or mechanically complex fight - you'll take something that stabilizes the group providing a larger margin for error, because there are numerous ways to work around fights like that. If a fight includes both in ample quantities, the DPS check always supersedes any other kind of mechanic due to its binary nature (you meet it and there is only one way to meet it or you lose). Truly difficult fights include both. Therein lies the problem. Square wanted to make this tier 'exceptionally hard'. This means tight DPS checks are a necessity.

But here's the real rub, if you start making tank mitigation super important (even though it is still being checked), WARs will simply take the place of PLDs on the sidelines. You can't win either way. If next tier becomes all tank busters and meh dps checks (an easier tier in general then), it'll be the WARs in here doing the exact same thing (80 DPS shouldn't mean I can't do XYZ). The best Square can do is make a tier that has fights super reliant on a DPS check and some that aren't as reliant (but still important), keeping all the tanks relevant. Unless of course you want to make all the tanks the same. But holy hell, I hate that, rather deal with the imbalance.

The complaining is stemming from the fact there are only 3 real fights known to the public with an overwhelming majority primarily doing the 1st, which favours WARs. Essentially, for most people trying to clear Savage as a non-WAR it boils down to "I don't like this tier/boss, it doesn't favour my play-style", which is fine. Coil didn't favour mine, re-rolled a PLD for Hallowed Ground anyway, still had a blast. Now this tier I get to (or was going to T.T) DPS my little tank heart out. This is what it's like trying to clear content meant to be hard, not fair when ilvls are low. You play optimally, not how you like (which for me, is the same thing! Lucky me!).

Honestly I wouldn't of had a problem with tanks not being able to tank any of Alex Sav without vit gear (stricter healer and tank checks). But I can tell you not many people would have cleared it if that were the case. It would also be a metric shit-ton harder to balance for when you consider all of the utility spells everyone has access to compared to a simple DPS check (possibly not very creative on Square's end). For example; a BLM would all of a sudden become more valuable (possibly mandatory, reminds me of Shadow Priest stacking hahaha) for Apocatastasis on A1 simple because your tanks can't survive the tank buster that now does double the damage it does now.

/procrastination!

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

But here's the real rub, if you start making tank mitigation super important (even though it is still being checked), WARs will simply take the place of PLDs on the sidelines.

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You make both mechanics at the same time.

Let's imagine a big boss who create parts of him. Each time one part is killed, he loses a 10% of its life, and you need one tank for the main body and one for the part.
You could have any tank on the main body focused on surviving high damaging moves (So, any tank with high VIT, but "mostly" PLD or DRK, since damage is less relevant), and one tank on the spare part focused on dishing out damage (So, any tank with high STR but mostly WAR since surviving is less relevant)

You could even alter the main target to switch periodically to either physical or magical busters, thus each tank will have its strong and weak points in the long run, and the spare part to switch between physical and magical resistance so that you want to mix your DPS.
For an additionnal mechanic, you could make the body to keep only one type of busters (physical or magical) when it hits 50% HP, thus managing your timing so that the final from better suits the main tank you have.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You make both mechanics at the same time.

Let's imagine a big boss who create parts of him. Each time one part is killed, he loses a 10% of its life, and you need one tank for the main body and one for the part.
You could have any tank on the main body focused on surviving high damaging moves (So, any tank with high VIT, but "mostly" PLD or DRK, since damage is less relevant), and one tank on the spare part focused on dishing out damage (So, any tank with high STR but mostly WAR since surviving is less relevant)

You could even alter the main target to switch periodically to either physical or magical busters, thus each tank will have its strong and weak points in the long run, and the spare part to take reduced damage from physical or magical so that mixing DPSes will be more efficient.
For an additionnal mechanic, you could make the body to stay in one form (physical or magical) when it hits 50% HP, thus managing your timing so that the final from better suits the main tank you have.

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You can do this kind of stuff. And MMOs do. But it's a gimmick, you can't fill an entire tier with it. One boss a tier does not make. It's a good idea though, don't get me wrong.

And in the current FF:HW climate it wouldn't work as is. If the current level of DPS checks were transplanted to your hypothetical, you'd still want a tank who does more damage. Build aggro on head, switch to limbs to help DPS.

Your problem is with the tightness of the checks. As I have said, it is binary. Progression through difficult bosses (mathematically speaking) close to release has always been about squeezing DPS to the maximum (single heal Garrosh world first anyone? What a god).

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

for Apocatastasis on A1 simple because your tanks can't survive the tank buster that now does double the damage it does now.

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I think another part of the problem is the total reliance on tank busters and scripted fights. When pretty much all the damage in any fight except the known tank busters is considered fluff damage that regen takes care of I think there's something pretty wrong with the fight design. If the damage was more consistent you'd have a more organic fight.

The biggest problem honestly is that the content is just so lazily designed. Dps is the only thing checked, there's no real mitigation stat in the game, fights are 100% scripted so it's just a game simon says, mitigation is 90% passive etc.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Build aggro on head, switch to limbs to help DPS.

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Not if you need to keep the part and head away from each other. ;)

That's just an idea I had after 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure a full team of experienced developers can create a lot of bosses with these kind of mechanics ;)

You could also make time kills where the main target has to die around the same time as the last lesser target of a long train. So, killing the main target the fastest is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I think another part of the problem is the total reliance on tank busters and scripted fights. When pretty much all the damage in any fight except the known tank busters is considered fluff damage that regen takes care of I think there's something pretty wrong with the fight design. If the damage was more consistent you'd have a more organic fight.

The biggest problem honestly is that the content is just so lazily designed. Dps is the only thing checked, there's no real mitigation stat in the game, fights are 100% scripted so it's just a game simon says, mitigation is 90% passive etc.

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Yeah but that's MMO raiding in general FF:ARR especially. Its entire philosophy is 'learn the dance' (Titan anyone). It's the very core of this game. If you take issue with that, then I'm not sure what to say 0.o.

Healers are certainly being checked though. The oppressors check healers...oh yes do they check the healers. And they kind of check the tanks? Albeit it's can you press buttons when you see a cast bar! But it's there...but I'll concede it's a shitty one.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not if you need to keep the part and head away from each other. ;)

That's just an idea I had after 5 minutes, I'm pretty sure a full team of experienced developers can create a lot of bosses with these kind of mechanics ;)

You could also make time kills where the main target has to die around the same time as the last lesser target of a long train. So, killing the main target the fastest is irrelevant.

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Ok so then what is the MT doing? Sitting there casting Clemency and Riot blade combo? Throw tomahawks? If the DPS on the head matters, then he'll be a WAR. If it doesn't, then he's a weird support character for a fight (AKA only a PLD could do that fight optimally). Like I said, it'd work for a single fight and it'd be cool. But a whole tier, eh, not convinced.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Yeah but that's MMO raiding in general FF:ARR especially. Its entire philosophy is 'learn the dance' (Titan anyone). It's the very core of this game. If you take issue with that, then I'm not sure what to say 0.o.

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I think the problem is the degree to which ARR and really HW takes the scripting and lazy design. I don't expect pure rng but it's taken to such a ridiculous extreme you're pretty much a robot in these fights. Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

If the DPS on the head matters, then he'll be a WAR.

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Loot at the second boss from Copperbell normal. DPS doesn't matter but you still need someone to keep aggro on it.
It's also like Cerberus. Only the DPS in belly really matters, anyone can tank the boss itself.
If the boss I think of loses 10% of HP each time a part is killed, so 10 parts to end the fight, and that no tank can bring down this number to 9 parts, then DPSing the head doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

If it doesn't, then he's a weird support character for a fight (AKA only a PLD could do that fight optimally).

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You'd still need someone to keep aggro and take the hits, and each tank can do it approximately the same. If you have a WAR or a PLD, you'll try to lock the boss in "physical" form, if you have a DRK, you'll lock to "magical" form.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

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Like I said in another topic, it could be interesting to have a boss with a cooldown on each of its attack, but that can use randomly any attack that is not on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I think the problem is the degree to which ARR and really HW takes the scripting and lazy design. I don't expect pure rng but it's taken to such a ridiculous extreme you're pretty much a robot in these fights. Every class is basically a fixed rotation, every boss is a scripted dps check. We're not thinking during a fight we're writing a bot script.

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Same can be applied to almost any other PvE (and even PvP...if you're good enough :P) scenario. You're essentially repeating the great PvE vs. PvP debate.

For a large amount of people, doing their rotation without error (if they even know how to do that to begin with), whilst performing whichever mechanic the boss is throwing at you can be a challenge. Some bosses are far more complex to manage than others in this respect. Yes, it comes at you the same way every-time (well not every-time, there is some variability), but you certainly get better. After an odd 50-70 attempts at that boss I was still learning news way to optimize and eke out the tiniest bit more DPS by the end. If it were so simple I would see more people perform better, even after the umpteenth wipe. Don't forget 7 other people can't make a mistake either!

It's definitely a different skill-set to PvP though, which you seem the value those traits more (reactions, clutch plays, adaption, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Loot at the second boss from Copperbell normal. DPS doesn't matter but you still need someone to keep aggro on it.

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Going on record to say that is my actual least favorite fight in the game. I'd rather eat rusty nails than do that boring piece of donkey's ass.

But the point is, presume that's a raid. You don't need to DPS boss beyond aggro. So it would automatically favour a PLD because they can do something other than DPS (a DRK and WAR literally can not doing anything but use their attack skills). Which is the inverse of the current problem. This was my point.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Same can be applied to almost any other PvE (and even PvP...if you're good enough :P) scenario. You're essentially repeating the great PvE vs. PvP debate.

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Not really. PvP is the opposite end of the spectrum but there's a lot inbetween. For example classes can be done with more a priority system than a fixed rotation. A priority system isn't mind blowing by any means but makes things feel just a little less scripted. Bosses can just add little bits of rng to the fight, not to the degree you're winning or losing fights on rng, but enough that it makes it feel like maybe the boss is thinking a little bit about what it's doing.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

stuff .

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emmm....wut? I never understood players like you, no offence but what script? the so called "ROTATIONS" are mathematical combinations made for us the player, Yes is the probably maximum dps combination to maximize your abilities, but there's not a single part on the entire game where it says in which order you need to use your abilities nor you are obligated to follow that rotation, hell you can make your own rotation if you want to go ahead and do some math. The same goes for the fight, yes mechanics are scripted but the way to approach those mechanics are up to us there's no reason why you should mimic other groups mechanics. What people fail to understand is that to make a boss difficult and challenging for 8 man there's need to be something called synchronization, there's nothing harder than HUMAN ERROR and for 8 people to perfectly be sync there needs to be an script that makes then all not only to perfectly play his class but also learn how to use the class on different situation while synchronize with each other to handle the so called script mechanic, there's nothing hard about random abilities mix up together because anyone can just do whatever they want there's no need to be synchronize just know what we will do when the abilities pop up, there's no fun in that. take example of SHIVA (easiest primal of all)

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Not really. PvP is the opposite end of the spectrum but there's a lot inbetween. For example classes can be done with more a priority system than a fixed rotation. A priority system isn't mind blowing by any means but makes things feel just a little less scripted. Bosses can just add little bits of rng to the fight, not to the degree you're winning or losing fights on rng, but enough that it makes it feel like maybe the boss is thinking a little bit about what it's doing.

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Priority systems become just as drab as rotations in the same amount of time - at least to me. Most of WoW's classes work on a priority system rather than strict rotations...and they have literally the most boring classes in the world to play right now. Think Ret Pally *shiver*. I thought BRDs and MCHs have priority systems anyway? So there are options.

Bosses do randomly target, which you do need to react too (within set parameters). Imagine if the Oppressors cast their abilities in random orders 0.o. So many wipes to RnGesus. So many free-kills because he liked the look of his Photon Spaser this time. That would be insanely frustrating. This game is all about pattern recognition, more so than even other MMOs, it's designed that way from the ground up. So messing with the carefully crafted pattern in this game would be pure unmitigated bedlam.

Most of what I'm gathering here is that you just don't like the game's philosophy/design...which is dandy, you're just not overly thrilled by the concepts, but calling it 'bad design' is a bit unfair. Because I think it's pretty good for what it's trying to be.

No thanks...heh, if anything we need more variety, IMHO. I'd like to see a support job eventually...

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

emmm....wut? I never understood players like you, no offence but what script? the so called "ROTATIONS" are mathematical combinations made for us the player, Yes is the probably maximum dps combination to maximize your abilities,

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I'm guessing you don't have a lot of experience with MMO combat systems and class design because you don't seem to understand the basic difference between a fix rotation and a priority system. Fixed rotations means you always know what your next skill is. There is some minor leeway in that fight mechanics can occasionally screw up a rotation and cause you to start over but the rotation is basically always skill 1, skill 2, skill 3....skill n, repeat. That's what virtually every dps and tank does in this game.

A priority system means your next skill is the highest priority skill that's come off cooldown based on the current situation and resources available. In it's simplest form skill 1 has top priority, skill 2 is next priority, skill 3 is lowest priority. If you just did skill 3 and skill 1 and 2 are off cooldown then your action is skill 1. However, if you just did skill 3 and skill 1 is still on cooldown then your next action is skill 2. The priorities can shift with the flow of battle too including how your resource pool is doing.

As for synchronization being hard, it's only "hard" because they make failure to play simon says instant fail. Having people react to the flow of battle is much more challenging than rote memorization.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

good reasoning imo.

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couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Priority systems become just as drab as rotations in the same amount of time - at least to me. Most of WoW's classes work on a priority system rather than strict rotations...and they have literally the most boring classes in the world to play right now. Think Ret Pally *shiver*. I thought BRDs and MCHs have priority systems anyway? So there are options.

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Perhaps they just failed to make fun classes I don't have experience with them. As I said priority isn't mind blowing by any means, but you can't tell me with proper design it's more fun to repeat 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3... than having to actually consider what your next action is going to be. Mch and brd work more on rng than priority, which is still better than fixed. Smn is probably the closest thing to priority in this game and that barely scratches the surface of what could be done.

Fun is subjective and priority vs rotation becomes a semantic argument. Personally I think a job like Ninja or DRk is more fun than DRG or Pally. But to each their own. People tout "fun" like it's some objective truth, it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Perhaps they just failed to make fun classes I don't have experience with them. As I said priority isn't mind blowing by any means, but you can't tell me with proper design it's more fun to repeat 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3... than having to actually consider what your next action is going to be. Mch and brd work more on rng than priority, which is still better than fixed. Smn is probably the closest thing to priority in this game and that barely scratches the surface of what could be done.

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You don't consider your next move after a bit of time spent. It's muscle memory. I've played both complex and simple priority based classes. The difference is it takes longer to burn the rhythm of your class into your head. I used to have to consider my oGCDs as a Dragoon, played it for a bit, now I do it as a pure reaction. I used to 'manage' Blood of the Dragoon. I don't even do that anymore, I know exactly where each Geirskogul is going.

It's actually why I like positionals in this game a lot, melee is entirely unique in this game on that point (well besides Rogue archetypes, but always behind is a given). Taking a chance for more potency and chasing his ass while they spin is fun. The actual rotation itself means not much to me beyond lining up that 'wombo combo' of big numbers.

Also I can tell you that! People are different! Some find the reliability of a pattern engaging and rewarding when they master said pattern. Because then you can transpose your class' pattern onto the boss', so you know what you're doing - exactly - and when. It's actually one of the reasons I find raiding in this game so enjoyable, you eventually get it down to a damn science. You assume everyone thinks like you!

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

good point but...

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I know what a rotation and a priority means, but u didn't understand what I tried to say with the rotation been something made for us, there's not a rule that says when we have to use our abilities, we are just using a combination that is the most optimized because internet says so, In a way they are all a mix of priority and rotation, but I don't find challenging priority system Is bland and simple no skill involve in it if a ROTATION is a "simoom says" then a Priority is a simple "guacamole" only skill involve is reaction, that in which case I find harder a reaction to the rotation when involves fixing that rotation with the current state of the battle since it's a more constant event rather than waiting for a CD.

people HAVE to react to the flow of the battle in other to beat it, do you know when the big wave is gonna hit? yes. doe sit ensure that everyone will now how to overcome that way to prevent a wipe? no, knowing when the hit is coming doesn't make the fight any easier, players need to be on a high level of concentration and muscle memory to perfectly overcome it, which is harder than just tunnel vision and react fast when something pop, if that was the case then the harderst game is COD and we all know how even a 8 year old can play that, put a 8 year old playing t9 see how well it goes.

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Originally Posted by Ercapote

which is harder than just tunnel vision and react fast when something pop, if that was the case then the harderst game is COD and we all know how even a 8 year old can play that, put a 8 year old playing t9 see how well it goes.

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I still don't think you're really understanding what I'm saying. I don't mean just reacting to telegraphed aoes and such. I don't expect tunnel vision and the ignoring of the rest of the raid. The thing is that's kind of what happens right now. In a fight right now, do I care all that much what anyone else is doing during the fight? No. All that really matters is that I perform my job and if someone else screws up, well they caused the wipe not me. In other words tunnel vision. Who in the party ever cares about what anyone else is doing? There's nothing at all organic in these fights which means all you really need to do is tunnel vision focus on your given task.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

Going on record to say that is my actual least favorite fight in the game. I'd rather eat rusty nails than do that boring piece of donkey's ass.

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Cerberus, too ?

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

So it would automatically favour a PLD because they can do something other than DPS (a DRK and WAR literally can not doing anything but use their attack skills).

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Example ?

They would need to redesign tanking all together. Mitigation is "hit this button before this attack". Mitigation isn't hard or interesting in any way in this game. Push button, take less damage. It's exceedingly rudimentary. There's no way to "test" tanks in any meaningful way because there is no meaningful active way to mitigate damage. The only tank stat is hp. So you litterally gain no actual mitigation by playing turtle. More hp doesn't reduce the amount of heals you need.

Ironically it's the reason I like war. They have a mitigation resource to actively manage (wrath). It makes it far more engaging than push button, mitigate damge style of pld. (I haven't messed with dark much but the mp management sounds interesting for the same reason). That's why I still say war is the best designed tank. Managing resources is what makes jobs interesting otherwise they fall prey to a rotation. And there is almost no practical difference between a rotation and a priority system. They both end up brain dead ways to play. Actively managing a resource with tradeoffs gives you DECISIONS to make. If I do X now I can't do Y later. Tradeoffs are what make interesting gameplay. Rotations and priority systems are just reactions. There's no thinking involved with either. Prior is skill 1 then 2 then 3. I just did 1, 2 is still up therefore the next thing is 3. That's not 'thinking' that's reacting. There's no decision without tradeoff. "If I use infuriate to get 1 mire fell cleave under zerk now, will I need to for ib the tank buster in 40 sec? Can I afford to pop vengence just for a stack now and give it up for the next 2 min? When an choice to do an action costs you in some other way down the road you have to think ahead and weigh the pros and cons. Rotations and prios are just synonyms for pattern gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

snip.

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I have to disagree, me as a tank I'm constaly calling mechanic caring for my group in fact I spend most of the looking at my pt and seen if they are handling mechanics properly. you are talking more for your own experience and opinion speaking like if it was some facts. as a group you need to work with your team mates and make sure everyone is at point otherwise you wont accomplish anything on the fight. might as well go on DF and clear all the content there if you don't care about what anyone is doing. but me personally I'm constanly caring about what my team mates are doing.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

They would need to redesign tanking all together. Mitigation is "hit this button before this attack". Mitigation isn't hard or interesting in any way in this game. Push button, take less damage. It's exceedingly rudimentary. There's no way to "test" tanks in any meaningful way because there is no meaningful active way to mitigate damage. The only tank stat is hp. So you litterally gain no actual mitigation by playing turtle. More hp doesn't reduce the amount of heals you need.

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That still all comes back to bad design though, whether the encounter or the tank is poorly designed doesn't change that overall it's bad design. I do generally agree that to a large degree it's already too late but still doesn't excuse the bad design decisions that really are still going forward. They could have made parry actually do something, they could have made vit directly reduce the damage you take. We have a stat determination that increases all damage, why not a stat like I don't know, mitigation, stack it to take less damage. We have elemental resist on our char sheets and absolutely no option to do anything with it.

They added new skills to the tanks in the expansion they could have used those to make things more interesting but didn't. The new skills could have been all kinds of active mitigation but didn't really realize that at all. Closest is pld with shelltron and divine veil but those fall woefully short. So yeah it's kind of too late for radical gameplay changes, but there were a lot of things they could have done.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

now this!.

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on this I do 100% and beyond agree with you on dps and heals I think it's fine but tanking was poorly made and they are only pushing tanks even more to the dps side, whit an stat like parry that it's even implemented on our gear like if we actually need it for anything and not taking advantages of the elemental system nor implementing new TANKING interesting abilities just dps and situational BS that are barely used I do agree they are fucking it up on this aspect of the game, I LOVE TANKING but I don't like the way is implemented here nor on end game content where you only feel llike a tank when you need to switch. they took a really lazy and poor approach to the tanking aspect of the game and that's something I which they change, lately I feel more like a dps than a tank.

I still say design choice because they chose to give tanks dps skills from 50 to 60. Goring blade? Fell cleave? An entire stance dedicated to no other purpose than doin damage? SE isn't accidentally designing tanks to focus more on damage. They are intentionally building them t do it. They are making a concious design choice to focus tanks on dealing more damage. It's quite obviously a design choice not 'bad' design. They want tanks to factor in damage into their role.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I still say design choice because they chose to give tanks dps skills from 50 to 60. Goring blade? Fell cleave? An entire stance dedicated to no other purpose than doin damage? SE isn't accidentally designing tanks to focus more on damage. They are intentionally building them t do it. They are making a concious design choice to focus tanks on dealing more damage. It's quite obviously a design choice not 'bad' design. They want tanks to factor in damage into their role.

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so going for that philosophy why the hell do we have tanks again? why not make "LIKE THIS THREAT SAYS" everyone a DPS, HEALERS havemayor healing abilities that allows them to improve their healing kit and also some "MINOR" dps abilities to help the move through the meta of this game, DPS get incredible new dps habilities and buffs + raid utilities to help their dps kit to improve even more, TANKS get DPS abilities because?..... is not "bad" design is not a "design choice" is a "BAD DESING CHOICE" tanks should tank, tanks class your have abilities for a suppose meta where tanks need to hold hits keep agro mitigate damage. We don't have such meta unfortunately because they has a "bad choice" approaching tanks mechanics and abilities, not we just need HP the rest is DPS.

The reason we have tank and heal dps capabilities is because people like to dps. Every mmo has always had a hard time getting players that want to tank and heal because people would rather do damage. While there are some players that want to heal only only or turtle only, history suggests the vast majority of players want to make things dead. I don't blame SE trying to make tanks and heals more attractive by adding damage. They can maintain the trinity by keeping tank/heal damage notably below true dps, but encourage more people to play them by having dps be a considerable factor and actual mitigation and enmity systems being rather simple by comparison. I don't think that is bad design. I think that is rather intelligent design to encourage players to play those otherwise unpopular roles.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I don't think that is bad design. I think that is rather intelligent design to encourage players to play those otherwise unpopular roles.

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And if queue times are any indication it didn't accomplish anything at all. When I play dps I wait just as long in queues in this game as any other game.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Look at all the "git gud" comments on every thread :
What is a good DPS ? Someone who master its rotation so that it can dish enormous amount of damage.
What is a good tank ? Someone who masters its cooldown so that it can dish good amount of damage.
What is a good healer ? Someone who masters its spells so that it can dish good amount of damage.

Isn't something a little bit...off, there ?

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Hfw you don't clear content by not dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

snip

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if someone want to play tank THEY WILL play tank, if someone wants to heal THEY WILL play healer and if somone wants to play dps THEY WILL dps. not because tanks and healers have a few dps abilities will push anyone to move from a dps class to a healing class for the dps aspect of that healing class. if you think that's an smart choice then you are missing the point of the "trinity" in which case instead of helping, is hurting since with all this dps BS I'm starting to lvl up a CASTER DPS to drop this tank stuff, I love tank and tanking an as a 2.0 paladin since the beginning this is bothering me and making me not want to play this class, something that never happened on the 2.x series

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Hfw you don't clear content by not dpsing.

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You don't clear content by only DPSing.