The Monk Temple

Crits are 150% damage (or healing), yes.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

There are probably more things, but I think this is worth thinking about.

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There are more things. About half your damage, including autoattacks, non-GCD skills, and DoTs, do not benefit from SS. So yeah, cut the value of SS in half.

Monks have a general crit rate of >20% due to IR. So yeah, cut that CRT value by 20%.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Monks have a general crit rate of >20% due to IR. So yeah, cut that CRT value by 20%.

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That makes no sense at all.

If you're gonna try to say Bootshine makes up 20% of your DPS, then you're just plain wrong.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

There are more things. About half your damage, including autoattacks, non-GCD skills, and DoTs, do not benefit from SS. So yeah, cut the value of SS in half.

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This is true. We have a lot of damage from our auto-attacks and dots which benefit from crit but not SS.
If SS made auto-attacks faster (at least) then it might be more even.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Monks have a general crit rate of >20% due to IR. So yeah, cut that CRT value by 20%.

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I don't understand. Crit should not have any diminishing returns unless it's over 100.
My example was only in regards to gains from the crit stat. You crit over 20 times in one hundred attacks with, and 3% more crit just adds 3 more crits to that (in the grand scheme of things, obviously, since rng is rng).
It was said earlier that crit increases dps by a set amount regardless of what your crit chance is. Unless over 100.

Bootshine is the only attack that fits this. Not sure how to place it.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

That makes no sense at all.

If you're gonna try to say Bootshine makes up 20% of your DPS, then you're just plain wrong.

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I think what EasymodeX was getting at is that it's just as absurd to negate the benefits of SS just because some of the OCD skills don't benefit from it as it is to suggest negating the benefits of Crit Hit Rate because of IR.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

I think what EasymodeX was getting at is that it's just as absurd to negate the benefits of SS just because some of the OCD skills don't benefit from it as it is to suggest negating the benefits of Crit Hit Rate because of IR.

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Ah, well the off GCD abilities are not that important. The dots are something,but even that's not huge, right?
The auto attacks though, that's pretty major.

Are we sure SS doesn't affect auto-attacks? I know there's no mention in the SS tooltip, but it's not like the tooltips have been misleading before.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

I think what EasymodeX was getting at is that it's just as absurd to negate the benefits of SS just because some of the OCD skills don't benefit from it as it is to suggest negating the benefits of Crit Hit Rate because of IR.

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That makes even less sense! A more accurate comparison would be to say Skillspeed is 15% weaker because of Greased Lightning. Or that Determination is 5% weaker from Fists of Fire, 21% weaker from Greased Lightning, and 10% weaker from Twin Snakes. That is a completely absurd argument.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

That makes even less sense! A more accurate comparison would be to say Skillspeed is 15% weaker because of Greased Lightning. Or that Determination is 5% weaker from Fists of Fire, 21% weaker from Greased Lightning, and 10% weaker from Twin Snakes. That is a completely absurd argument.

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I think the issue is that you threw a number out as cutting Skill Speed value by 50% without any actual data behind it. The posters such as EasymodeX and pandabearcat work with hard numbers, not random numbers thrown out just because. Which is why EasymodeX said "Monks have a general crit rate of >20% due to IR. So yeah, cut that CRT value by 20%. " because it IS absurd. Absurdity is absurdity, regardless of how absurd.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

Absurdity is absurdity, regardless of how absurd. Which does it's job in combating the massive amount of misinformation on these boards.

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I promised I'd explain it more when I got home, so time to really get into this... warning, colossal wall of text inc.

One caveat: strength, accuracy and determination all benefit both sets equally. If anything, the determination formula benefits autoattack slightly more (thus making SS slightly worse overall), but we'll disregard that for now.

First is figuring out how much damage skills that are not boosted by Skillspeed contribute to your overall damage. Autoattack is 100p/3s (common knowledge by now). DoTs are 85p/3s (40 from Demolish, 25 from Touch of Death, 20 form Fracture.) Steel Peak is 150 potency on a 40s cooldown (so 11.25p/3s), Howling Fist is 170 potency on a 60s cooldown (8.5p/3s). For what it's worth, Shoulder Tackle is 3.3p/3s, but it's not really too feasible to use it due to the long range requirement and that it's quite helpful for mobility, so we'll discount it for now.

This means skills that do not benefit from Skillspeed are about 204.75 potency every 3 seconds, or more appropriately, 216.725 after Dragon Kick's modifier. With 10% crit, this becomes 227.561~ potency every 3 seconds.

Now let's assume you have a fairly high amount of Skillspeed. Assume that with 3 stacks of Greased Lightning you're at a flat 2.0 GCD (this will keep the math easier to follow). OK? Let's go figure out how much skills boosted by Skillspeed give! All of these will factor in crit values of 10% baseline crit, which is having a small but not totally ignored amount of crit. They will also assume Dragon Kick, which benefits all of them.

Bootshine is 214.5 potency. (130 * 1.5 * 1.1)
Dragon Kick is 173.25 potency. (150 * 1.05 * 1.1)
Twin Snakes is 161.7 potency. (140 * 1.05 * 1.1)
True Strike is 177.375 potency (150 * 1.075 * 1.1)
Snap Punch is 207.9 potency (180 * 1.05 * 1.1) and is usually used twice, so we'll count it twice.

This means the GCDs not used to apply DoT abilities are doing, assuming an equal-ish use of all of them, 190.4375 potency per use, or 286.656p/3s. But we're not done yet!

See, assuming 200 GCDs used (which is a 6m 40s fight, which is a decent size), you'll end up spending:
--20 GCDs reapplying Demolish, which does no initial damage.
--20 GCDs reapplying Fracture, which does 173.25 potency every 18s, or 28.875p/3s.
--13 GCDs reapplying Touch of Death, which does 23.1 potency every 30s, or 2.31p/3s.

Since 53 of your 200 GCDs are not being used for the normal abilities, this means 26.5% of that damage needs to be replaced with the initial damage from the DoTs.

286.656 * 0.735 + 28.875 + 2.31= 241.142 potency every 3 seconds worth of damage comes from abilities boosted by Skillspeed.

Whoo-whee, that's a lot of basic math thrown around! This means that with enough SS to get your GCD down to 2.0 seconds, about 51.4% of your damage will come from attacks boosted by Skillspeed.

For funsies, assuming minimal skillspeed let's say a BiS pre turn 5 set, which has 106 skillspeed on it + the 15% from Greased Lightning, and 139 crit (so 14.78% crit, up from 10%, and Internal Release used on cooldown, so 22.28% average crit)...

GL3 reduces the base GCD to 2.17 with no skillspeed. With the 106 skillspeed it'll drop it to 2.086 GCD. So instead of simply multiplying all the weaponskills by 1.5, you multiply them by 1.438~, which gets you the following results...

Non-SS-boosted damage is 243.5989p/3s. (216.725 * 1.124)

Bootshine is still 214.5 potency. (130 * 1.5 * 1.1)
Dragon Kick is now 185.625 potency. (150 * 1.124 * 1.1)
Twin Snakes is now 173.096 potency. (140 * 1.124 * 1.1)
True Strike is now 187.506 potency (150 * 1.1364 * 1.1)
Snap Punch is now 222.552 potency (180 * 1.124 * 1.1) again, twice.

So with the higher crit value, SS-boosted skills do 200.97 potency per use, or, adjusted for skillspeed, 288.997p/3s. But wait, we still need to adjust for DoTs!

Now with this much skillspeed, DoT timing might be a bit off. On average though, it's not worth clipping Fracture or Demolish, and it would be worth clipping Touch of Death to every 14 GCDs. Assuming the same 400s fight, you'll have 191.754 GCDs during that time (let's round it to 192 for simplicity's sake.)

--20 GCDs reapplying Demolish, which does no initial damage.
--20 GCDs reapplying Fracture, which does 173.25 potency every 18s, or 28.875p/3s.
--13 GCDs reapplying Touch of Death, which does 23.1 potency every 30s, or 2.31p/3s.

Since 53 of your 192 GCDs are not being used for the normal abilities, this means 27.6% of that damage needs to be replaced with the initial damage from the DoTs.

288.997 * 0.724 + 28.875 + 2.31= 240.419 potency every 3 seconds worth of damage comes from abilities boosted by Skillspeed with this set.

In conclusion, with a typical set of gear, 243.5989p/3s is from skills not boosted by SS. 240.419p/3s is. This means 49.6% of your damage will come from skills boosted by Skillspeed. This means that Skillspeed will, on average, only benefit about half of your damage in the best scenarios.

So can we please get back to avoiding Skillspeed as much as possible?

Edit - I'm aware some people use ID. This post isn't going to get into the increased TP use of high SS, but needless to say, Monks do have TP issues in longer fights. Skillspeed only hurts this issue more, and ID hurts it even more beyond that.
I'm also aware it's a common practice to not use True Strike unless your GCD is very low. This is a fair practice, as the gains from True Strike over Twin Snakes are very minimal, and even then all this would do is serve to make Skillspeed even worse.
I'm aware somebody will say "well in X really long complicated rotation, it'd be more like 242.314p/3s for skills boosted by Skillspeed, so HA!" Fine, whatever, the point still stands -- Skillspeed is still only boosting half your damage.
I'm aware Bootshine doesn't scale with crit rating. Bootshine is about 6.4% of your overall DPS in the best of cases. This is a small amount and not enough to put Skillspeed anywhere near as valuable as Crit.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

/snip

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Very appreciated for the long description (and very informative) You can have a cookie :)

Nice write up Powercow. Now that we have skillspeed out of the way do we now know an official stat priority for monk?

Common sense is also to be considered with maths, especially when it could be biassed.

With 2.10 GCD, True Strike is kind of equal to spamming twin snake each cycle (in fact just ahead and Exponentially better with Crit rising). This is the breakpoint GCD to aim for, since if you go to > 490 SS, you'll get poor Det and Crit stats while gaining ONLY 0.10 SEC. Many people didn't realise yet that Skill Speed efficiency is logaritmic cause of GL3.

More Skill Speed you have, less sec / ms you gain point by point with GL3, because SS is just mathematically insignificant compared to GL3.
There is a BiS that bring you to 373 SS (2.10 GCD), 500 + Crit and 290 Det. Also, Crit / Det has always been in ANY mmos the way to go for Melee fast attacker (synergies with AA).

Lol.

Skill speed is obviously reduced significantly in value because it only applies to a fraction of the total damage output.

Likewise, crit rating is reduced in value because it only applies to crittable hits, and 20% of your hits already crit.

Hence, a full analysis will reduce the generic value of skill speed by [%AA + %OGCD], with some modeling assumptions for DOTs (better uptime, but fixed tick cycle is a statistical question), but it will also reduce the value of crit by the baseline crit. Which is higher when you include successful Bootshines.

I've posted a general approximate stat weight for Monks elsewhere already. For reference, it's:

w/ high Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.225
CRT 0.148
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

w/ no Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.226
CRT 0.165
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

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Originally Posted by Powercow

/snip

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Very nice, I can see now where you're getting the 50% number. Wish more people posted like this so that we all can at least understand where they are getting their numbers. Your post is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Lol.

Skill speed is obviously reduced significantly in value because it only applies to a fraction of the total damage output.

Likewise, crit rating is reduced in value because it only applies to crittable hits, and 20% of your hits already crit.

Hence, a full analysis will reduce the generic value of skill speed by [%AA + %OGCD], with some modeling assumptions for DOTs (better uptime, but fixed tick cycle is a statistical question), but it will also reduce the value of crit by the baseline crit. Which is higher when you include successful Bootshines.

I've posted a general approximate stat weight for Monks elsewhere already. For reference, it's:

w/ high Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.225
CRT 0.148
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

w/ no Bootshine:

STR 1
DET 0.226
CRT 0.165
WD 7.536
SS 0.147

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Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't make sense to me. You're basically saying crit has diminishing returns? That the more crit chance you have the less you value it?
I'm not the best at modelling stats, so I might just be misunderstanding something.

Everything I know about probability stats says it doesn't work that way. You may have a baseline of 20% crit, but if you get up to 40% crit you increased your damage by a set amount. Increases don't change depending on how much crit you've had before. Going from 98%-99% is the same dps increase as going from 10%-11%.

REASONING:
Effectively every percent of crit gained is equivalent to a percent of your damage that does 150% damage. It is a linear progression. Going from 20% to 40% is doubling the amount you crit. This is effectively a 50% increase on an EXTRA 20% of your damage, in addition to the 20% you had already.
The only diminishing returns on crit is when you pass 100%. Bootshine fits in this category. That being said....

COMPLICATION:
Internal Release isn't easily modeled (by me, at least). The reason for this is that it's a short term increase. We can say it increases crits by 7.5% on average per minute, but that's not really accurate. It is a short term buff so it doesn't balance. You can get a series of no crits or a string of full crits due to the IR. It's not as predictable because it's short term and these probability stats only balance out over the long term.
That's not to say it can't be formulated.

It should be noted however that since IR is not 100% increase, it can't be said that crit has little value to it. The relationship is complicated, but I'd need to see or know it was properly modeled before concluding that it effectively diminishes the value of crit.
The value of crit is outright reduced by Bootshine. This is true.

CONCLUSION:
Maybe you understood everything I said above. But I had to respond since you said

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crit rating is reduced in value because it only applies to crittable hits, and 20% of your hits already crit.

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This is just an overly simple statement that doesn't take into account to linear damage increase that crit provides.
If your model deems crit worth less cause of proper IR modeling, which is admittedly up 25% of the time, then I will understand.

It sounded more like, we already crit on 20% of our attacks, so any gained crit will only affects 80% of our damage.
That would be missing the point of how crit increases damage (as I said above).


I also have a quick question about your stat references.
From what I know, the stat budget gives more and less of certain stats right. For example, you can get more SS on a piece than you can get DET. Crit is in the middle.
If that's the case, do you know the ratio? Because it seems that SS is favored with high Bootshine over crit. It may even be favored with no Bootshine since you can get more of it?

Wish mnk had some TP generation attack, doing turn 5 at the moment and keep going out of TP all the time >.<, Invigorate is not enough :'(

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I also have a quick question about your stat references.
From what I know, the stat budget gives more and less of certain stats right. For example, you can get more SS on a piece than you can get DET. Crit is in the middle.
If that's the case, do you know the ratio? Because it seems that SS is favored with high Bootshine over crit. It may even be favored with no Bootshine since you can get more of it?

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I wouldn't put much (or any) stock into those. They're accurate only when one has an absurdly high base crit rate. See, stat weights will change based off of the rest of your gear. The more crit you have, the more useful determination and SS become. The more SS you have, the more valuable crit and det are, and the more det you have, the more valuable crit and SS are.

"So Powercow, should we go for a balanced set of stats?!" Why, no, no not at all.

See, these increases to the values of other stats only really come into play when you have a lot of them. If it was possible to have around 50% crit all of the time, sure, SS might start to outpace crit. But see, I try not to deal in "well in ilvl 120 gear they might sorta maybe have super duper high crit values", I try to keep things where we are now, and where most people are making their decisions (which is around the Darklight and early Coil areas of gear progression.) Because crit values are so low at the moment (for the record, base crit is 5.15%, not 20%), even in the most drastic of situations of going from no crit rating to a full set of BiS gear focused on crit/det, at most crit will see a...

[showingwork]
5.15% is baseline. 16.65 is with the turn 5 BiS set. Add in the 7.5% average boost from IR (for simplicty's sake) and we're going from 12.75% to 24.15%. This is going from 106.375% to 112.075% from crit alone. This is a 5.358% DPS boost instead of the expected 5.7%.
[/showingwork]

This is not a 20% reduction like Easymodex seems to think it is, but a 6% reduction. Add in the multiplicative 6.4% penalty for liberal use of Bootshine, and crit is, even when stacking the hell out of it, 12% penalized compared to SS, which is penalized by about 50%. And...

[showingwork]
As shown on the previous page, 106 SS reduces the GCD by 0.091 with 3 stacks of GL. 0.091/2.17*100 = 4.193% more average damage for the parts SS boosts.
106 crit rating boosts crit from 5.15% to 12.49%, which is 7.34% / 2 (since crit gives 50% more damage), or 3.64% more average damage for the parts Crit boosts.

Now let's factor in the penalties for the parts SS doesn't boost (50%), and the part Crit doesn't boost and the part Crit receives slower scaling for if you have more of it (12%)

The first 106 Skillspeed will boost your damage by 2.0965%. The first 106 Crit will boost your damage by 3.2032% (and even slightly more, not enough time to re-do the math here, but it wouldn't get as much of a penalty due to higher crit rates with this amount). This mean crit will be about 52.78% more effective, point for point, than a single point of Skillspeed.

And for what it's worth, accuracy, crit and skillspeed all cost the same in terms of itemization costs. Only determination costs more.

And yeah, I'm aware someone will come along and say "it's actually not 52.78%, it's 51.19%" or some silly nonsense. The point still stands. No amount of rounding, fuzzy math, or good feelings is going to make up for a >52% difference. Even with the absolute BiS gear, the difference might dip to 50%. Until you get really, really, REALLY high crit value, crit will always beat Skillspeed. Given the current amounts of stats we have on our gear, the difference will always be pretty damn huge.

personally i dont use fracture but only touch of death as dot, because i saw a 10 dps drop from using fracture, i think fracture is good with a SS focused gear, but not with a crit/determination gear, of curse i don't know if the "battle pharse program" are really correct atm

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I'm not the best at modelling stats, so I might just be misunderstanding something.

Everything I know about probability stats says it doesn't work that way. You may have a baseline of 20% crit, but if you get up to 40% crit you increased your damage by a set amount.

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You're focusing too much on stats and damage; the question at hand is the value of the stats as they contribute to damage.

If you have 10,000,000 strength and 0% chance to crit, how much value do you get from +1 str? Nearly nothing. How much value do you get from +1 crit? A heck of a lot.

If you have 10 strength and 90% chance to crit, how much value do you get from +1 str? A lot. +1 crit? Very little.

Optimizing stats on gear is about relative increase to your damage. If your class had 50 autocritting abilities and a baseline 80% chance to crit because SquareEnix says so, then how much value do you get from crit? Wouldn't you want to buff your base damage instead to take advantage of that crit?

Another way to look at it is that you get linear gains from +crit or +ss. Wouldn't you rather get superior geometric gains by multiplying your crit or ss?

The largest area coverage from 2 linear values is always a square, not a rectangle.

Yes, most normal stats in MMO mechanics have diminishing marginal utility. Or soft diminishing returns in terms of value.

Crit is a chronic offender because plebs love to see big numbers and categorically ignore the fact that if they already have a ton of it, they should invest elsewhere.

Edit: Check this out; I put a lot of tender loving care into it: http://imgur.com/GpD1fh4

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

You're focusing too much on stats and damage; the question at hand is the value of the stats as they contribute to damage.

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So you're talking about relative stat relations. That makes it clearer. This is where I misunderstood.
For monks, doesn't that give more value to crit?
By the same relation though, that gives a lot of value to crit. Our SS is off the charts compared to other classes since our base SS is affected by GL3.

GL3 is equivalent to roughly 400 skill speed. Add that our innate SS. Our crit should relatively be much higher, even with IR right?
I'd like a proper crit formula to get into this. I'm pretty sure 100 crit = 8% is not accurate.

Thanks for your reply anyway. At least I understand what you meant now.
This discussion also feels a little moot since there aren't that many gear choices anyway.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

By the same relation though, that gives a lot of value to crit. Our SS is off the charts compared to other classes since our base SS is affected by GL3.

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That would be true if the "speed enhancement" from GL operated the same way as SS. It doesn't.

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GL3 is equivalent to roughly 400 skill speed.

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Specifically, this isn't very true.

However, the basic concept you mentioned is accurate.

... which is why Monks actually have a pretty good crit stat weight with 0 bootshine use despite having a traited IR.

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I'd like a proper crit formula to get into this. I'm pretty sure 100 crit = 8% is not accurate.

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The current formulas use 0.0693% * crit rating = crit%. Based on data compiled from beta: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...riticalHitRate

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Originally Posted by Herrstarr

Wish mnk had some TP generation attack, doing turn 5 at the moment and keep going out of TP all the time >.<, Invigorate is not enough :'(

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Get as little skill speed as possible.

It's really a bummer than you can't really make a DET/CRIT gearset (with 470~ ACC) without having access to Turn 5 pieces (MNK Body and DRG Wirsts), with pre Turn 5 gear if you try to up CRIT your DET plummets and vice-versa.

I've been stuck in Turn 4 for quite a while now without any signs of beating Turn 5 anytime soon like pretty much everyone else (It starts to remind me of XI's AV, who knows when it'll become "killable"), so for now I'm gonna work towards a CRIT/Skill Speed (while trying to maintain some DET) gear set.

Hi just a few question here. I know I'm not 50 yet but I'd like to get a head start and I just want to confirm.
DK is good to start with instead of Boot since it has more dmg? I know that it'll complement the flank since snake and punch r also flank.
2) when doing PB at start should I do all my first: IR and BFB THEN PB?
3) Will I get DK 10% when I use it after PB, would it look like this PB> DK(10% buff/de-buff)>SPx3=GL3?

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Crit is a chronic offender because plebs love to see big numbers and categorically ignore the fact that if they already have a ton of it, they should invest elsewhere.

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In what current set can anyone actually get "a ton of it"? I'd really like to see this theoretical set of gear from the future.

And I showed my work. Your theory is fine. I integrated it above before you even posted it. The theory, however, does not have a significant impact on the way the class functions given the current level of gear. If we're all in ilvl 120 equipment and we're rolling with 40+% crit, then yes, your theory might actually make Skillspeed not a terrible stat. But as it stands, in no way, fight, gear setup, or non-terrible rotation does Skillspeed come even close to Crit in terms of its usefulness.

What are turn 5 pieces?

Sounds like you guys are talking about FF Tactics.

"turn 5 pieces" refers to equip dropping at the end(?) of 5th turn of Binding Coil of Bahamut, currently the hardest, yet to be (legally) beaten encounter in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

Hi just a few question here. I know I'm not 50 yet but I'd like to get a head start and I just want to confirm.
DK is good to start with instead of Boot since it has more dmg? I know that it'll complement the flank since snake and punch r also flank.
2) when doing PB at start should I do all my first: IR and BFB THEN PB?
3) Will I get DK 10% when I use it after PB, would it look like this PB> DK(10% buff/de-buff)>SPx3=GL3?

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You shouldn't waste those precious PB seconds like that. I'd start with BfB -> DK -> TS -> SP -> IR -> PB -> SPx4
Sometimes I don't even trigger PB until I have GL3, so that I can squeeze 5x IR'd SPs in one PB (my gcd is 2.02 atm)

I also noticed you can hit the skill key when the GCD display is at around 10-11 o'clock on the icon, which boosted my DPS quite a lot. The battle also started to feel more fluent.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

And I showed my work.

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Your "work" is asinine because you don't understand how to assess the value of marginal stat gains. Your entire "work" section doesn't even answer the question and uses an incorrect stat comparison and baseline since you have a half-assed understanding of what you're talking about. A little bit of knowledge is more dangerous and more prone to error than pure ignorance.

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Your theory is fine.

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I don't have a theory. I have cyclical model that simulates a hard rotation and models damage modifiers and statistical crit rates. The results are as they are.

But you don't even need to go that far. You need to simply have a coherent understanding of how to measure the +10 crit on a piece of gear under consideration.

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in no way, fight, gear setup, or non-terrible rotation does Skillspeed come even close to Crit in terms of its usefulness.

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If you use Bootshine at maximum potential, don't macro on-GCD abilities, and press buttonz properly, you will get relatively similar returns from CRT as SS. Any less efficiency with Bootshine and CRT pulls ahead. The TP consideration, in addition, results in a situation where players should lean towards CRT in all situations where the two are offered equally.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

That would be true if the "speed enhancement" from GL operated the same way as SS. It doesn't.



Specifically, this isn't very true.

However, the basic concept you mentioned is accurate.

... which is why Monks actually have a pretty good crit stat weight with 0 bootshine use despite having a traited IR.



The current formulas use 0.0693% * crit rating = crit%. Based on data compiled from beta: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...riticalHitRate

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guys that site is updated from beta 4, i am not secure that is rly accurate, they don't give any update or news from 2 months, probably the owner of the site has left the game before completing the tests

The tests were complete in beta 3 and many of the formulas were verified in beta 4.

General observations in retail have generally concurred with the formulas, with the exception of some caster damage formula testing (although I didn't pay much attention so I don't know the details). No one to my knowledge has done extensive testing in retail though.

You forget also something (I know you know it, just to clarify) : SS doesn't affect AA, Crit & Det are. In many MMOs, Melee damage is a lot of total damages, don't ignore the det / crit bonuses on them (and should be obvious, while gaining only 0.10 sec with 100 SS) to focus Det / Crit (well there is this hidden DR with crit, but you can't do a det build without crit ... so :p. Also, Det sinergies very well with Crit). That is two aspects that SS does not offer (at least with the formulas right now ... Obviously if 100 SS would bring us to 1.5 GCD there is no question ... but this isn't the case and the difference is marginal. Plus, you should know that playing with "haste or SS" is directly affected by the 0.5 sec human eyes are stuck with to "realize" things. Crit & Det are "automatic".

There is no such thing as "reaction delay" as pertains to the player execution of GCDs in this MMO.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Your "work" is asinine because you don't understand how to assess the value of marginal stat gains. Your entire "work" section doesn't even answer the question and uses an incorrect stat comparison and baseline since you have a half-assed understanding of what you're talking about. A little bit of knowledge is more dangerous and more prone to error than pure ignorance.

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You think 20% crit devalues crit by 20%. I could just stop here and let anyone who has a basic understanding of mathematics facepalm at your inability to comprehend statistics, but I'll go one step beyond. This is now how it works. I showed, thanks to basic math (and yeah, it's that simple!) that going from no crit rating to a heavy emphasis on crit rating only devalues it by 6%.

And my stat comparison and baseline is based off the actual gear available in the game. Yours is some nebulous idea that doesn't apply in nearly enough of a capacity to matter.

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I don't have a theory. I have cyclical model that simulates a hard rotation and models damage modifiers and statistical crit rates. The results are as they are.

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You keep saying this, but you've never shown anything. You just keep making stuff up and trying to pass it off like it's true. Anybody can punch numbers into a spreadsheet and come up with any conclusion they want; the important part is if you put the numbers in correctly, which you clearly did not since you're getting wholly incorrect answers.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

You think 20% crit devalues crit by 20%.

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If you want to be precise, then that is not what I think.

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but I'll go one step beyond. This is now how it works. I showed, thanks to basic math (and yeah, it's that simple!) that going from no crit rating to a heavy emphasis on crit rating only devalues it by 6%.

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Congratulations on, again, not answering the correct question / solving the correct problem.

Mathcraft fails when you use it for the wrong purpose.

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You keep saying this, but you've never shown anything. You just keep making stuff up and trying to pass it off like it's true.

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I've uploaded and linked my model 3 separate times. IDGAF if you believe me or not.

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Anybody can punch numbers into a spreadsheet and come up with any conclusion they want;

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I do it better than most. Actually I'm most pleased with the part where I used a quasi-recursive set of formulas to loop buff timing to close rotations so you don't have to do that manually. Combined with the automatic DOT clipping corrections.

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the important part is if you put the numbers in correctly, which you clearly did not since you're getting wholly incorrect answers.

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Based on your napkin analysis that isn't even coherent for stat/gear evaluation? Kbro.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

If you want to be precise, then that is not what I think.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Monks have a general crit rate of >20% due to IR. So yeah, cut that CRT value by 20%.

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Then this is a very bizarre statement.

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Congratulations on, again, not answering the correct question / solving the correct problem.

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And what's the correct question? I answered two:
1: How much of your damage is boosted by skillspeed?
---Around 50%, depending on your gear.
2: How strong is crit rating compared to skillspeed?
---Close to 50% stronger, though varying on specific situations.

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I've uploaded and linked my model 3 separate times. IDGAF if you believe me or not.

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I actually looked through all of your posts, and one was for a Bard spreadsheet, and the other link was defunct. Could you link it again? I'm actually curious.

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Based on your napkin analysis that isn't even coherent for stat/gear evaluation? Kbro.

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You can't understand it? Which part is too hard to understand? This forum isn't the best for formatting columns.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Then this is a very bizarre statement.

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"that CRT value". What do you think that refers to?

It does not refer to the crit that you described.

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2: How strong is crit rating compared to skillspeed?
---Close to 50% stronger, though varying on specific situations.

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Heh, no. That's not even the question you need to ask to compare against your first.

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I actually looked through all of your posts, and one was for a Bard spreadsheet, and the other link was defunct. Could you link it again? I'm actually curious.

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I never uploaded or linked a "Bard spreadsheet". If that is the post I'm thinking of, that is a link to the full workbook of which 1 tab is a sheet for the Bard rotation with a subsection on stat weights. There's another tab for DRGs and another for MNKs, along with some detailed DRG gear analysis.

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You can't understand it? Which part is too hard to understand? This forum isn't the best for formatting columns.

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Oh I understand it -- however it is not coherent, as I said, for stat weighting / gear evaluation / optimization. You seem to have a hard time with critical reading.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I never uploaded or linked a "Bard spreadsheet". If that is the post I'm thinking of, that is a link to the full workbook of which 1 tab is a sheet for the Bard rotation with a subsection on stat weights. There's another tab for DRGs and another for MNKs, along with some detailed DRG gear analysis.

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Well now I just feel silly for not noticing the tabs earlier. >>

So what's the point of AF10 (what % of damage is from DoTs) if it never comes into play again?
Where do you get 144.9 potency per second for skills? I wanna spam skills that do 320+ potency. And yeah, I know you're including Crits, but really even with the 10% crit you use in your example, or are you including Autoattack and DoT ticks for the skills that benefit from SS? Real rotational potency is closer to 95.55 for non-DoT skills.
Also why a 43.73 second rotation? That seems extremely arbitrary. Fixing up some of the numbers to go from base values (like if you had no gear at all) to adding 10 to each thing, Crit beats SS by 23%, and that's not even bothering to factor in DoTs or OGCDs.

So fix your damn spreadsheet and put in the correct values for things before you go off spouting about how great it is. Like I said, it doesn't matter if you use a spreadsheet if you don't put in the correct values, and you seem to be under the impression DoTs benefit from Skillspeed. Really, try putting in some appropriate values and you'll see some interesting returns!

And yeah, my thing isn't going to help someone decide "is 10 skillspeed or 10 crit better?" outside of the obvious "well crit is about 50% stronger than skillspeed, so you should go with that." No, it's not going to give them an exact number, but it tells them what they should be going for.

Anyway I'm done with this guy. He doesn't even get the basic concepts of the class or mechanics he keeps trying to tout.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

You shouldn't waste those precious PB seconds like that. I'd start with BfB -> DK -> TS -> SP -> IR -> PB -> SPx4

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In another thread, I considered the optimal use of PB at battle start.

You'll notice chaining Snaps is less effective than bolstering them first with DK and Twin. Using DK under the effect of PB will apply the DK debuff, while using it from a neutral form will not. If you could fit only 4 steps into PB, opening with DK is still ideal.

Basically, you'll do more damage, more quickly if you use PB to ramp up to GL3 instead of putting it off for Snap spam. It's a different story if you're in the middle of an encounter and want to use PB "just for the damage."

Also, I think it's a bad idea to burn BfB/IR before you're ready to apply DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

In another thread, I considered the optimal use of PB at battle start.

You'll notice chaining Snaps is less effective than bolstering them first with DK and Twin. Using DK under the effect of PB will apply the DK debuff, while using it from a neutral form will not. If you could fit only 4 steps into PB, opening with DK is still ideal.

Basically, you'll do more damage, more quickly if you use PB to ramp up to GL3 instead of putting it off for Snap spam. It's a different story if you're in the middle of an encounter and want to use PB "just for the damage."

Also, I think it's a bad idea to burn BfB/IR before you're ready to apply DoTs.

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I really like Twin-Snapx3-DK for a starter(as from your post). I don't use it much as a starter but I think that's the best one.