Can we please

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

"No problem" I thought. I finished the MSQ earlier and I had about 4-6 pieces of 735 gear that should help raise the ilvl substantially, from their 710-700 gear. I went to trade them some of the gear, and I COULDN'T. I completely forgot this game still has the insane arbitrary restriction on, of all things, DUNGEON GEAR.

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Considering you probably robbed a poor raider who was just trying to get some of those pieces to update their FRU BiS, this is deserved.

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Originally Posted by RenkoBernkastel

Idk man, if you're so established maybe just craft the gear yourself in a couple of minutes....... Btw 740 gear was 50-100k a piece like 3 days ago on my world so idk, maybe don't get scammed.

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Gee thanks for adding another incoherent comment.

1. Established? To whom? To you? Crafting makes you established? I'm sorry I have so much time in the game idk how I forgot to become established.
2. You just told me that being able to trade dungeon gear wouldn't have solved my problem at all but then told me it would have solved my problem but because you might not have any dungeon gear in your possession at the moment it wouldn't make sense. Do you have an armory? Do you not get drops that you don't notice sometimes? Does gear stay in your possession for any amount of time at all before you either trade it in, drop it, sell it, or desynth it? Do you have no dungeon gear for glamor in either your retainers or armory? In ALL of these instances we could have looked to grab gear, traded it, with the expectation to either get it back, or let them keep it.
3. Oh wow YOUR world. I'll take your advice and try not to get scammed........oh wait except someone who was actually trying to help earlier mentioned the logistics of why the gear is so expensive right now. NONE of us knew this because like I said we just came back and were simply trying to play the games new content with each other.

Like good lord look outside your own bubble for once and develop some empathy.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I see where you're going now. It looks like you've had to respond to a bunch of people here who aren't quite understanding the point you're trying to make, so perhaps step back a moment and consider if the original post maybe wasn't as clear as it sounded in your mind. From reading through it initially, it sounds like your primary complaint is about not being able to get sufficient gear right away, and that the dungeon gear thing is just one little piece of your complaint rather than the main focus. I'd recommend mentioning dungeon gear in the title of the thread or at least in the very first paragraph - I think that would make it more likely for people to understand the point you're actually trying to make.

Also, when you spend an entire paragraph saying things like "I thought this game was supposed to be friendly to those who take breaks" and then detailing a series of hoops you feel you and your friends need to jump through, that's definitely at the very least implying if not directly claiming the game has poor catch-up mechanics. Just saying.

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Hey my man I'm going to dial back the tone a bit since I don't think you are coming off as malicious, however I simply disagree with some things, and heres why.

You're right if I would have added specific things in the title or started off by stating my points off the bat, more people might not have misunderstood. That said, I specifically made the post the way I did, starting off with a story format which builds up to my point with a real world example as to my "why" before stating my point (The paragraph title is the beginning of that paragraph btw). I then use supporting points to show that there is no reason we shouldn't be able to trade dungeon gear. If you took from what I said that the game has poor catch up mechanics, then it's being taken personally. I'm saying that BECAUSE of the philosophy and all of these other things, here is an example of why this thing that should be possible became a barrier that was annoying and at this point shouldn't be there.

The fact that people choose to not actually read and jump to conclusions based on reading anything they deem as pushback, OR completely ignore the points and tell me to do other things or whatever (i've lost track at this point) is completely on them. I don't mind those arguments because I think they actually strengthen mine overall.

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Originally Posted by Haru304

If you - and your friends - want to exclude an entire progression pillar from your game-play, that's entirely valid. It is however disingenuous to imply it isn't a 'major part' of the experience simply because you choose not to engage with it. It's how these systems are designed.

The system expects; some level of time investment, gil/material investment or community investment.

I understand, fully, that you just want the easiest possible path of least resistance short-cut so you and your friends can tackle the most recent content - and leave again - but that's not how this game works by design. And it shouldn't do so. Because that's not how the participation loop for the game is intended.

The reasons why you can't trade for dungeon gear would, off the top of my head, revolve around... RMT abuse, keeping personal engagement with the content, ensures that there's some tangible value to participating in dungeon content, etc.

Free gear distribution without participation is a horrendous idea.

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I actually don't know what to say and part of me thinks you're trolling. You are factually wrong.

1. Crafting and gathering is not an essential progression pillar. I've played FFXIV since the beginning of Stormblood, crafting/gathering has NEVER been a requirement.

2. I'm fine with MMO's requiring time investment. This isn't the one that usually does though. In fact it's literally in their marketing. Don't believe me?
"Experience a new generation of MMORPG where grinding is kept to a minimum so you can enjoy more immediate results!" - https://freetrial.finalfantasyxiv.co...id=22365075108

3. Yes in that specific moment we wanted a short path to get to the minimum item level for a run so that EVERYONE could play together.....like you normally would in an MMO. Whether or not we leave afterwards should have nothing to do with anything. Yoshi P. specifically tells us to leave when we have nothing that we want to do. And again, you are FACTUALLY wrong. The game DOES work that way. And it DID work. YOU people wanted all the QOL and so the expectation when playing the game is that we don't have weird arbitrary barriers like this one.

4. My man trading dungeon gear that almost no one uses would not affect RMT at all. It also wouldn't affect ANYTHING as far as engagement. You still have your little tombstone hamster wheel that ends up being BIS in most instances.

It's funny, for someone who wants so much player participation and engagement, i'm shocked FFXIV is your go to game. I'd like to see how you fare logging into classic FFXI, or Everquest, because your answers make it sound like you have some weird idea of how you think the game should operate vs how it does and you want to verbally shoot down anyone who disagrees with you. But again, I'd say you should take it up with Yoshi P. not me. I'm just playing the game the way it works and is currently intended.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Gee thanks for adding another incoherent comment.

1. Established? To whom? To you? Crafting makes you established? I'm sorry I have so much time in the game idk how I forgot to become established.
2. You just told me that being able to trade dungeon gear wouldn't have solved my problem at all but then told me it would have solved my problem but because you might not have any dungeon gear in your possession at the moment it wouldn't make sense. Do you have an armory? Do you not get drops that you don't notice sometimes? Does gear stay in your possession for any amount of time at all before you either trade it in, drop it, sell it, or desynth it? Do you have no dungeon gear for glamor in either your retainers or armory? In ALL of these instances we could have looked to grab gear, traded it, with the expectation to either get it back, or let them keep it.
3. Oh wow YOUR world. I'll take your advice and try not to get scammed........oh wait except someone who was actually trying to help earlier mentioned the logistics of why the gear is so expensive right now. NONE of us knew this because like I said we just came back and were simply trying to play the games new content with each other.

Like good lord look outside your own bubble for once and develop some empathy.

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Did you fall on your head or something? YOU YOURSELF called yourself an established player, that's why I said it in the first place.
I also said it would have solved your one problem one time but it wouldn't be the be all end all solution to said problem. Multiple people can suffer from the same issue, you having gear left lying around doesn't fix THEIR issue. My god, you have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. Imagine figuring out context on your own. You know how some people in the world go hungry every day? YOU having food doesn't solve that.

Actual neanderthal.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

You've supposedly played mmo's for over 20 years, and you unironically think an ilvl 725 requirement 19 weeks after 7.2 is too hard?

Also you claimed "there was either none left on the market board, or it was all super expensive." You checked every MB on crystal and couldn't find any "affordable" crafted gear.

This reads like "We didn't do much for months but still feel like we should be able to do the new content day 1 of the new patch."

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Lol I've read plenty of your comments now to know you're bad faith so I'll have fun and engage with you.

1. Did I say it was too hard? or did I say that there was an arbitrary barrier with trading lesser dungeon gear that most people don't use? And yes I have played MMO's for over 20 years and I would be willing to bet that you probably would think they're too hard.

2. Yeah like others have explained, because this patch introduced the upgrades to the crafted gear, people bought most of them, and the ones that were left were insanely expensive. We didn't know this because we were gone. I literally saw examples of legs going for 700k and even an earring going for 1.5mil. My bad for being a good FC mate and trying to help others so they can also participate in content with us and have fun. It is supposed to be an MMO after all. But I guess you people have played the game on solo mode for so long that you don't understand kindness or empathy.

3. YEAH kinda, that is if we can get the gear. Tell me, when you hit level 100 at the beginning of a patch cycle, does your rotation change AT ALL after that? Oh it doesn't? so literally every boss there after your skills and ability to perform your rotation stay the same regardless of the gear you have on? Oh wow, so the only barrier to entry is the minimum gear level, and all we have to do is meet that? okay, well you're telling me it's okay that we buy it off the marketboard but it's not okay to trade someone dungeon gear that most of the time no one uses anyways? Make that make sense to me. You people are ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by RenkoBernkastel

Did you fall on your head or something? YOU YOURSELF called yourself an established player, that's why I said it in the first place.
I also said it would have solved your one problem one time but it wouldn't be the be all end all solution to said problem. Multiple people can suffer from the same issue, you having gear left lying around doesn't fix THEIR issue. My god, you have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. Imagine figuring out context on your own. You know how some people in the world go hungry every day? YOU having food doesn't solve that.

Actual neanderthal.

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Oh you're right my apologies i'm dealing with a bunch of ignorant comments back to back by people who make this game their personality so that part slipped. That said your assumption that an established player means you can craft the latest gear is still weird. idk what to tell you on that. With how many hours this game requires simply finishing the MSQ can make someone established.

And lol talk about reading comprehension, what do you think all of those examples I gave were? They were about being able to trade those gear pieces and how they would solve a lot of those problems. WHAT!?

Your exact quote: "but it wouldn't solve the issue at all because who tf stores loads of random dungeon gear so they can maybe eventually outfit some friends later on"

I can tell you never played any other MMO before that has trading because gifting people gear, or even letting them borrow it is a super common thing in those games. If we could trade those gear pieces I would say it would definitely help solve that problem. Did I ever say that it was the "END ALL BE ALL" solution? No I didn't, so Idk why you are even jumping to that conclusion as if that was my argument. Even using it as a rebuttal is weird as if its all or nothing.

And I'd rather be a neanderthal, than a clown in the circus ring I'm seeing here.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I like dogging on the game as much as the next guy, but this just ain't it.

If anything, the game is too friendly for people that take breaks.

As far as I am concerned if you take an extended break then you really should be expected to have some level of investment before being able to engage with the new stuff.

It really shouldn't be that you can take a break for 4-8 months and then come back and be immediately caught up.

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I'm gonna dial back my tone with you because I don't think you aren't trolling or speaking in bad faith.

I generally would agree with you, but that is NOT how this game operates. You can basically play it solo, or in multiplayer content, play it "solo like" in that you don't have to talk to anyone, you just do the mechanics.

On top of that, I think for this game that opinion is wrong for these reasons.
1. Once you reach max level at the base of an expansion your rotation and way you play your job doesn't change at all for the rest of the patch cycle.
2. No one seems to have a problem buying the gear off the market board right? So whats the difference with being able to trade dungeon gear that most people don't use.
3. What arbitrary time investment are we talking? Do we need to do level 50 dailies with a lesser kit build? Do we need to run pelu pelu fetch quests?

Again as someone who's played MMO's that actually require players to do things I very much understand your sentiment, but the game is currently insanely easy, and I don't think trading dungeon gear so that some FC mates who had lesser gear could reach the arbitrary min ilvl matters when the skills to do their rotation hasn't changed for over a year. However if this was FFXI, Everquest, OSRS, or Classis WOW then I would agree. But the game currently works this way and from blowing a ton of gil we eventually did the run.

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Originally Posted by Bibine_Bine

Having untradeable dungeon gear is a very standard and uncontroversial thing for an MMO to do. Crafted gear is not that expensive for a max level player if you're really looking to take shortcuts just to get up to item level. And if you're smart there are websites that monitor MB prices so you could just travel to another server and get the best price possible. Making dungeon loot tradable would just devalue crafted gear.

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It's ONLY standard in hamster wheel MMO's. SE already has another MMO where that ISN'T standard, FFXI. I already explained to you in the initial post that there was low amounts of crafted gear, and the costs were insane. A couple other people in this thread have explained why already. It was just bad timing but we couldn't have known because we just resubbed.

Also we were smart, we used those websites. Making dungeon loot tradeable 1. would actually open the market up more. 2. doesn't break anything really because crafted gear and tomb gear are just so much better in comparison that people will still go for that. If anything it just makes dungeon gear not useless.

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Originally Posted by XiaoShengwu

you ..do realize that even IF you were able to trade "dungeon gear"...it's been soulbound to you. you still can't trade it.

just go craft them a set. as someone who DIDNT take a break from the game. you should have the ability to provide your FC mates with the required gear, no? failing that, buy some.

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Okay.

1. That's not how bounding works. It needs to be equipped first.
2. I already said in this thread I don't craft. It's not fun for me so I don't do it.
3. I also just resubbed, just in a lesser time frame as I tried OC. My gear was fine.
4. I also already said gear was limited on the MB, and prices were out of control. A couple people in this thread were helpful and explained why. (we're talking 5mil+ to gear a single person)

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Considering you probably robbed a poor raider who was just trying to get some of those pieces to update their FRU BiS, this is deserved.

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Brother your lack of empathy, and your weird obsessed mindset which makes this game your personality is showing.

Now that there are trusts, I always do first runs solo so I actually learn the mechanics. In turn all the gear I got I was actually willing to give away to others who were in need, but couldn't do so because of the arbitrary trade restriction. As far as the raid itself, what I don't need I usually pass unless I want something specifically.

Kinda sounds like the complete opposite of how you just painted me doesn't it? Regardless, I have the exact same right to the gear that anyone else does. Our subs give us the exact same rights.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

I actually don't know what to say and part of me thinks you're trolling. You are factually wrong.

1. Crafting and gathering is not an essential progression pillar. I've played FFXIV since the beginning of Stormblood, crafting/gathering has NEVER been a requirement.

2. I'm fine with MMO's requiring time investment. This isn't the one that usually does though. In fact it's literally in their marketing. Don't believe me?
"Experience a new generation of MMORPG where grinding is kept to a minimum so you can enjoy more immediate results!" - https://freetrial.finalfantasyxiv.co...id=22365075108

3. Yes in that specific moment we wanted a short path to get to the minimum item level for a run so that EVERYONE could play together.....like you normally would in an MMO. Whether or not we leave afterwards should have nothing to do with anything. Yoshi P. specifically tells us to leave when we have nothing that we want to do. And again, you are FACTUALLY wrong. The game DOES work that way. And it DID work. YOU people wanted all the QOL and so the expectation when playing the game is that we don't have weird arbitrary barriers like this one.

4. My man trading dungeon gear that almost no one uses would not affect RMT at all. It also wouldn't affect ANYTHING as far as engagement. You still have your little tombstone hamster wheel that ends up being BIS in most instances.

It's funny, for someone who wants so much player participation and engagement, i'm shocked FFXIV is your go to game. I'd like to see how you fare logging into classic FFXI, or Everquest, because your answers make it sound like you have some weird idea of how you think the game should operate vs how it does and you want to verbally shoot down anyone who disagrees with you. But again, I'd say you should take it up with Yoshi P. not me. I'm just playing the game the way it works and is currently intended.

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That's a lot of reasonably cherry picked nonsense right there. Won't lie. I'll keep things short and sweet, and assume that you're arguing in good faith. I'll not sink to accusing someone of trolling based on the premise of disagreement - that's pretty damned lazy.

1. You're confusing requirement with relevance. You're choosing to ignore an entire gear progression system, on the basis that you don't like it and seem to believe it's irrelevant. Here, let's examine why. First.

It's a common, well utilised progression pillar and is arguably the fastest way to get back into raiding upon rejoining the game. Crafted gear is -consistently- BIS on release. It drives the player economy. It isn't fluff. It's a core system. Money made via crafted gear is pumped back into food, potions, housing, PENTAMELDING, etcetera. There are ENTIRE content systems built specifically around it; Ishgard Restoration, Custom Deliveries, Collectibles, etcetera. Essential? No. One of the core systems of progression used by the community? Absolutely yes.

2. Reduced grind //=// Zero grind. You have catch up mechanics to utilise that require extremely minimal time investment. It's not a lobby based game. It's an MMORPG. Minimised friction is a marketing strategy - not an absolute rule.

3. You can actually accomplish just that! Crafted Gear. Tomestone Gear. Duty Roulettes. Community support. All methods that require... arguably, less effort than farming dungeon loot to hand off to your friends who don't play actively. At least on an individual level. Acting like player retention isn't important in an MMORPG -regardless- of what the developer claims for marketing purposes, is... really silly. It's an ecosystem. It's not supposed to be 'one and done'. But if you want it to be that way, the forementioned systems... all facilitate that. QoL //=// Bypassing Progression.

You can quickly gear to minimum level.
You can play with your friends while doing it.
And you can take breaks, without any penalties whatsoever.

4. Dismissive rhetoric with ignorance for how it might impact the progression and engagement system as a whole.

Calling my views ‘weird’ doesn’t change the fact that I’m arguing based on how FFXIV’s systems are designed and function in practice. FFXIV strikes a deliberate balance between player engagement and accessibility — something classic FFXI and Everquest approached very differently. Both games that I've played at length, by the by. I engage with crafters and gatherers regularly, and friends who want to partake in gearing up via content. You have this twisted idea in your head that a marketing focus on QOL is the same thing as... removing all and any barriers to entry. In your mind, would we all just walk around in a lobby and insta-queue into every new piece of content, all at the same ilevel? These systems are designed promote engagement.

The only lee-way in this instance, is that, at the moment, prices on Crystal are skewed towards a full crafted set costing around.. if I had to estimate based on previous dealings, around four million? I don't really think that's a lot for an active player to jump back in and play, but you wouldn't even be paying that much if you had at least one friend or FC member that's invested into crafting - and the community is chockful of people who do -just- that. Who are happy to even toss shit away for free.

And replying to a few of the things you said to Kaurhz…

Your rotation has very little to do with your gear or stats, so that's irrelevant.
Crafted gear requires a lot of player investment and communication, along with economic growth - with entire systems surrounding it. Acting like player economic interaction in an MMORPG is some kind of irrelevant side thought is... weird.
Whatever arbitrary time investment we're talking is the bare minimum time investment it takes to grab some higher ilevel gear - in a game with plenty of catch up mechanics.

Glad to hear you spent some gil, validated other player's efforts and enjoyed your run!

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Originally Posted by Haru304

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You can just edit your original post to get past the character limit, if you didnt know. :)

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Considering you probably robbed a poor raider who was just trying to get some of those pieces to update their FRU BiS, this is deserved.

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LOOOOOOL.....

'Robbed'

LOL

"I took a long break and expect to cake walk through content others have worked towards for months."

The Underkeep (ilvl 705) rewards ilvl 725 gear and four Tomestone items (each selling for 12k+). Just one day before the patch, the latest crafted gear pieces were selling for 50k to 100k, and we also have normal raids.

This isn't about empathy. Most people in this thread are just doing basic math and understand the obvious problems that trading dungeon gear would cause.

Anyone can gear up from 700 to 720 (latest dungeon requirement) in a single day. It's an objective fact, not up for debate. Some level of grind is expected, considering item level 700 was attainable about a year ago, or 365 days, when the expansion released. Even then, just a few runs of The Underkeep are enough, which is quite generous.

And if people somehow have no gil despite having nothing significant to spend on, while also deciding to gear up on patch week when prices increase, it's not SE's problem. The game still needs an economy, crafted gear progression, and dungeon content that lasts more than a single day.

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Originally Posted by Haru304

That's a lot of reasonably cherry picked nonsense right there. Won't lie. I'll keep things short and sweet, and assume that you're arguing in good faith. I'll not sink to accusing someone of trolling based on the premise of disagreement - that's pretty damned lazy.

1. You're confusing requirement with relevance. You're choosing to ignore an entire gear progression system, on the basis that you don't like it and seem to believe it's irrelevant. Here, let's examine why. First.

It's a common, well utilised progression pillar and is arguably the fastest way to get back into raiding upon rejoining the game. Crafted gear is -consistently- BIS on release. It drives the player economy. It isn't fluff. It's a core system. Money made via crafted gear is pumped back into food, potions, housing, PENTAMELDING, etcetera. There are ENTIRE content systems built specifically around it; Ishgard Restoration, Custom Deliveries, Collectibles, etcetera. Essential? No. One of the core systems of progression used by the community? Absolutely yes.

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I guess I'll just address this point by point, and if you're being good faith as well then I'll dial it back.

1. I understand the role crafted gear plays in the game, you don't have to explain that to me. The fact is that it is still arbitrary. You don't have to engage with it AT ALL. Ever. The system in itself doesn't discredit at all why we should be able to trade simple dungeon gear, especially if the crafted gear is ALWAYS better. Gear for combat's sake isn't even a true endgame for like 90% of players. Most players care about cosmetics, mounts, and minions. Again this is all off topic but for the claim it needs to be said as a supporting point.

2. You're wrong. The simple fact that you can go to the market board and buy catch up gear completely invalidates the "grind" argument. And it did. Being that we didn't want a single person to blow all of their gil, we banded together and spent accordingly. We did the run that night, got the clear, geared the people. So unless you tell me that you don't think people should be able to do that the argument about needing to grind every so many months is inconsistent.

3. Lol okay hold on, we talk about cherry picked information, and this is what you're doing with this argument. I told you I played older MMO's prior including FFXI. I'm all for ACTUALLY making gearing a worthwhile and fun endeavor, and removing unnecessary QOL that takes away player engagement. But you aren't arguing that at all. You're saying that because others don't like the system that is currently there, they're wrong and you're trying to use a macro argument in multiple things that aren't actually related like player retention, in place of a micro arguement. Again, being able to trade dungeon gear, DOESN'T break anything here. It actually makes the gear much less useless, and gives specific dungeons AT YOUR LEVEL more replayability, as opposed to dailies that make you use lesser kits at lower levels. Or does player retention only matter in its current form with arbitrary tokens and forced grinds down a certain path? How about MORE options, that in turn gives people more things to do. More dots on the line to hit on their climb of the vertical progression.

4. I'm sorry for being dismissive, but if you really think about it for more than 5 seconds, you would realize that it's ignorant to argue the point that dungeon gear specifically breaks anything.

"In your mind, would we all just walk around in a lobby and insta-queue into every new piece of content, all at the same ilevel? These systems are designed promote engagement."
- Where did I say that at all? If im advocating for more ways to get gear, doesn't that insinuate that there is actually more to do? What do you even define as promoting engagement? Dailies? Making people buy gear off the market board? These aren't even mobile game levels of engagement and for someone who played those other cited MMO's (im guessing in their heyday) then you should clearly understand this.

"The only lee-way in this instance, is that, at the moment, prices"
- other people have already answered this. At this point you're just arguing just to argue. You're expecting people who have a two hour timeslot to play together to jump through a million hoops to do a simple run on that specific night. We had our reasons for going the route we did. We accomplished what we set out to do and NONE of that discredits why dungeon gear should be tradable.

"And replying to a few of the things you said to Kaurhz…"
1. You misunderstand. My point is that they said we would have to have some level of investment to come back and play. But with an insanely vertical gearing system, and the combat being as easy as it is with no real variables for gearing, then why? Your rotation not changing is just another aspect of that, in that the reason isn't investment for skill reasons.
2.idk how you extrapolated my answer to this with the response you gave. If you can buy gear off the market board, you obviously don't care about the players time investment when they come back. So why gate keep LESSER dungeon gear. Simple.
3. You just gave a text book non answer to this. And that's my exact point. If we could trade dungeon gear to get the person over the hump, then who gives a damn. It would be so much easier to argue that you simply like the game the way it is and you want no changes to happen at all. I would even respect that opinion. Maybe this is the specific flavor combination you most enjoy. That's actually a solid answer lol.

I appreciate that last comment. It took us about 30 minutes to gear two different people to 725. It was long and hard work, but someone had to do it.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

The Underkeep (ilvl 705) rewards ilvl 725 gear and four Tomestone items (each selling for 12k+). Just one day before the patch, the latest crafted gear pieces were selling for 50k to 100k, and we also have normal raids.

This isn't about empathy. Most people in this thread are just doing basic math and understand the obvious problems that trading dungeon gear would cause.

Anyone can gear up from 700 to 720 (latest dungeon requirement) in a single day. It's an objective fact, not up for debate. Some level of grind is expected, considering item level 700 was attainable about a year ago, or 365 days, when the expansion released. Even then, just a few runs of The Underkeep are enough, which is quite generous.

And if people somehow have no gil despite having nothing significant to spend on, while also deciding to gear up on patch week when prices increase, it's not SE's problem. The game still needs an economy, crafted gear progression, and dungeon content that lasts more than a single day.

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I didn't respond to you the first time because it was clear you didn't read what I wrote, and it is also clear that you didn't read the parts where multiple other people explained why the gear was so expensive the day of the patch. You have no empathy, you're looking to dunk when you can only jump a few inches.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

I didn't respond to you the first time because it was clear you didn't read what I wrote, and it is also clear that you didn't read the parts where multiple other people explained why the gear was so expensive the day of the patch. You have no empathy, you're looking to dunk when you can only jump a few inches.

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I wonder, why do you keep bringing the term "empathy" to this thread? You seem to repeat "you didn't read what I wrote" or "empathy" quite a lot. Your OP was suggesting for dungeon gear to be tradeable, and that the game isn't living up to its reputation of "friendly to returners". All I did was address those points. You might say you disagree, but to say that I didn't read what you wrote is completely false.

"and it is also clear that you didn't read the parts where multiple other people explained why the gear was so expensive the day of the patch" >>> Now it seems you didn't read what I wrote, which is pretty ironic, given the context. I've addressed this at the end of my post. It seems you've been doing the things you're accusing most people here to do quite often. Actually, maybe now I understand why you're so focused on those words.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Brother your lack of empathy, and your weird obsessed mindset which makes this game your personality is showing.

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Yet you are the only one on this thread who is literally crashing out.

I like the idea of being able to trade those dungeon gears for glamour reasons, because there are just so many other ways of getting better gears, and that would not require you to rely on trading dungeon gears.

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So as the title says, can we please do away with this already. It's SUCH a waste of time, and I thought this game was supposed to be friendly to those who take breaks. The only gear available to alleviate this issue was the crafted 740 gear, and there was either none left on the market board, or it was all super expensive. We all spent a mil or two trying trying to get these guys geared just so they could play with us, which also included having to break our party up, hop worlds and check prices in other locations.

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It's probably just bad timing, since recently the crafted 740s have been up for upgrades to 750s, and so their prices are inflated.

I dunno, seems like you should befriend an omnicrafter. I had two FC mates come back still in mainly 700/710 pieces. Only needed to make them 5 i740 pieces for them to take on the new content. 10 minutes of crafting and they were set. Barely a drop in my retainers storage to outfit them. Zero gil spent. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

I dunno, seems like you should befriend an omnicrafter. I had two FC mates come back still in mainly 700/710 pieces. Only needed to make them 5 i740 pieces for them to take on the new content. 10 minutes of crafting and they were set. Barely a drop in my retainers storage to outfit them. Zero gil spent. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I don't think I actually said this to anyone else but I'll say this to you since you weren't being rude or derogatory, it's honestly not that we didn't know anyone. It's who we had available. All of the examples in this post were to make a point about being able to trade dungeon gear. That's all. We got the gear and were able to do what we needed. I just recognized a barrier and thought that in this time, with the game in it's current state, it was an unnecessary one.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

I don't think I actually said this to anyone else but I'll say this to you since you weren't being rude or derogatory, it's honestly not that we didn't know anyone. It's who we had available. All of the examples in this post were to make a point about being able to trade dungeon gear. That's all. We got the gear and were able to do what we needed. I just recognized a barrier and thought that in this time, with the game in it's current state, it was an unnecessary one.

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There are other ways to catch up without the need to go into dungeons for dungeon gear. Gear dropping from battles or chests being untradable makes total sense. Compared to other games that have a good chunk of tradable gear, this game doesn't hand that much out in comparison. Tell me another MMO where only 6-9 pieces of gear drops in total from all bosses and trash pulls. Not that many. Usually tradable gear drops in droves and is cheap, in most games that has this feature. And guess what? Most of the time, the tradable gear is junk and gives randomized stats that would usually be useless and only the good stat gear sells about as much if not more than crafted gear.

I'm all for it, but please realize the issues that would come up if dungeons gear was tradable. It is quite easy to see how it plays out with other games. Desirable dungeons drops won't be cheap.

Edit: This just seems like poor planning. It's not like this requirement is a surprise. This happens each time new content drops: new content requires a slightly higher ilvl than the previous. It truly is unfortunate you didn't have the time to wait for crafts or had the time to get catch up gear in other ways than the market board. I completely understand the issue of time constraints, but usually planning and coordinating can help. My buddy who can only play one weekend a month, for example, was one of the two FC mates. I knew he'd be in that gear and told him to let me know when he gets on this weekend to give to him. Adding another avenue to get tradable catch up gear other than crafted also would definitely 'hurt' that market. How much? I wouldn't know. I don't touch it.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

There are other ways to catch up without the need to go into dungeons for dungeon gear. Gear dropping from battles or chests being untradable makes total sense. Compared to other games that have a good chunk of tradable gear, this game doesn't hand that much out in comparison. Tell me another MMO where only 6-9 pieces of gear drops in total from all bosses and trash pulls. Not that many. Usually tradable gear drops in droves and is cheap, in most games that has this feature. And guess what? Most of the time, the tradable gear is junk and gives randomized stats that would usually be useless and only the good stat gear sells about as much if not more than crafted gear.

I'm all for it, but please realize the issues that would come up if dungeons gear was tradable. It is quite easy to see how it plays out with other games. Desirable dungeons drops won't be cheap.

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Okay, so once again let me just be super clear. As someone who has played the game since stormblood, I know there are other ways to get gear. I FEEL like when people answer this way, they think that all of us in the said group have unlimited time together. We wanted to accomplish a goal right then and there. The other ways would have killed the time we had available even more, to the point where we wouldn't have been able to do what we wanted to do.

On top of that, I have played plenty of other MMO's and dungeon gear drops aren't a problem. Dungeon gear in this game is always weaker. To be able to trade them breaks absolutely nothing.


- You made three different points in that last little bit so I will address them.

1. "Most of the time, the tradable gear is junk" - Dungeon gear in this game currently is junk. Like 99% of the time you either desynth it or go back to your home nation and trade it in.
2. "and gives randomized stats" - This game doesn't do randomized stats and neither do TONS of other MMO's, including SE's other MMO FFXI, where there is free trading.
3. "only the good stat gear sells about as much if not more than crafted gear." - We have already established that dungeon gear in this game is always a weaker gear, so this is a non issue as long as they continue the trend.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Okay, so once again let me just be super clear. As someone who has played the game since stormblood, I know there are other ways to get gear. I FEEL like when people answer this way, they think that all of us in the said group have unlimited time together. We wanted to accomplish a goal right then and there. The other ways would have killed the time we had available even more, to the point where we wouldn't have been able to do what we wanted to do.

On top of that, I have played plenty of other MMO's and dungeon gear drops aren't a problem. Dungeon gear in this game is always weaker. To be able to trade them breaks absolutely nothing.


- You made three different points in that last little bit so I will address them.

1. "Most of the time, the tradable gear is junk" - Dungeon gear in this game currently is junk. Like 99% of the time you either desynth it or go back to your home nation and trade it in.
2. "and gives randomized stats" - This game doesn't do randomized stats and neither do TONS of other MMO's, including SE's other MMO FFXI, where there is free trading.
3. "only the good stat gear sells about as much if not more than crafted gear." - We have already established that dungeon gear in this game is always a weaker gear, so this is a non issue as long as they continue the trend.

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Please see my edit. This is poor planning. i740 gear wasn't released two days ago. It's been out for awhile. You knew you were returning. So, letting an omnicrafter you know like I tried advising in my first post prior to your return so they have a set ready for you is a waste of your time? I'm done if that's true. I have helped many returning players with gear because they asked for free, because I get a crap ton of spare materials when farming spiritbond.



Edit: You claim to play since Stormblood, so you should have known the ilvl requisites would have been more than 700/710 and 740 was available to farm and get, and know the current mechanisms in place, so this didn't blindside you

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

Please see my edit. This is poor planning. i740 gear wasn't released two days ago. It's been out for awhile. You knew you were returning. So, letting an omnicrafter you know like I tried advising in my first post prior to your return so they have a set ready for you is a waste of your time? I'm done if that's true. I have helped many returning players with gear because they asked for free, because I get a crap ton of spare materials when farming spiritbond.



Edit: You claim to play since Stormblood, so you should have known the ilvl requisites would have been more than 700/710 and 740 was available to farm and get, and know the current mechanisms in place, so this didn't blindside you

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Poor planning? It's a video game, and we're doing normal content, we aren't running extremes lol. Also I don't need you to advise me on anything. We came back when we did. I was fully prepare like I've said for the millionth time in this thread, I was just trying to help others out. And as far as a waste of time, playing video games is LITERALLY a waste of time, but no one can dictate what anyone spends their time on. That's probably why none of the other people felt the need to be "prepared", and im not gonna judge them because they have lives outside the game. On top of that, this game is usually the antithesis of QOL.

Lastly, none of that changes the fact that being able to trade dungeon gear doesn't break anything in the game, and we should be able to do it.

Idk I feel like you didn't come off adversarial at the start so i'm not sure if there is something you don't understand here.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Lol I've read plenty of your comments now to know you're bad faith so I'll have fun and engage with you.

1. Did I say it was too hard? or did I say that there was an arbitrary barrier with trading lesser dungeon gear that most people don't use? And yes I have played MMO's for over 20 years and I would be willing to bet that you probably would think they're too hard.

2. Yeah like others have explained, because this patch introduced the upgrades to the crafted gear, people bought most of them, and the ones that were left were insanely expensive. We didn't know this because we were gone. I literally saw examples of legs going for 700k and even an earring going for 1.5mil. My bad for being a good FC mate and trying to help others so they can also participate in content with us and have fun. It is supposed to be an MMO after all. But I guess you people have played the game on solo mode for so long that you don't understand kindness or empathy.

3. YEAH kinda, that is if we can get the gear. Tell me, when you hit level 100 at the beginning of a patch cycle, does your rotation change AT ALL after that? Oh it doesn't? so literally every boss there after your skills and ability to perform your rotation stay the same regardless of the gear you have on? Oh wow, so the only barrier to entry is the minimum gear level, and all we have to do is meet that? okay, well you're telling me it's okay that we buy it off the marketboard but it's not okay to trade someone dungeon gear that most of the time no one uses anyways? Make that make sense to me. You people are ridiculous.

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1. You didn't explicity say it was hard, but you're crying about it suggests you think it is. You wouldn't be complaining if it were easy?
2. A paragraph of strawmans. Checked universalis and the gear is affordable.
3. Unsure what rotations have to do with your apparent inability to hit ilvl 725.

again, your post reads like you and these fc mates barely play, but want to do the new content day 1 of its release. Welcome to vertical progression.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

1. You didn't explicity say it was hard, but you're crying about it suggests you think it is. You wouldn't be complaining if it were easy?
2. A paragraph of strawmans. Checked universalis and the gear is affordable.
3. Unsure what rotations have to do with your apparent inability to hit ilvl 725.

again, your post reads like you and these fc mates barely play, but want to do the new content day 1 of its release. Welcome to vertical progression.

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Lol you are actually miserable.

1. I didn't say it explicitly because I didn't say it at all and that wasn't even what this post was about, but you read it that way because you got mad that someone criticized the game aka your personality.
2. You're literally using a strawman how tf are you saying that's me!? You can't tell me what we all experienced and went through. Others have also validated it. Do you even know what a strawman is?
3. Yeah convenient you strawman focusing on a supporting point and acting like its a main one. The point is that you can't argue time investment for skill purposes because rotations stay the exact same through entire expansions 99% of the time. Does that make sense to you? If otherwise we can buy gear off the marketboard, why shouldn't we be able to do content on day one of the patch after not playing for months? Thats how the game operates right? That's what you specifically said you didn't like right?

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Lastly, none of that changes the fact that being able to trade dungeon gear doesn't break anything in the game, and we should be able to do it.


Idk I feel like you didn't come off adversarial at the start so i'm not sure if there is something you don't understand here.

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It by design would. If dungeon gear was tradable, then less people would buy the crafted items. How many? I wouldn't know as I said, I don't play the market. Gil is easy to come by without doing that. I'm not adversarial, just being devil's advocate with the understanding of 'less time.' (as stated in previous comments about understanding limited time) Playing a game is planning around the little time you do have. Tell me you didn't put time aside to play this patch and it was on a whim. If it was on a whim, expecting to try brand new content unprepared is... I can't find a pretty word for it, but the best I can find is self centered. You still didn't bring up the fact you should have known given your long time playing this would be a road block.


I still don't see how even sending a quick message to someone you know who crafts to assist on your return being sweaty. It's called proper preparation. Would you not prepare for a new fight in a single player game? Sounds more to me like you're annoyed with how the game's market is with current tradable gear. Making lower ilvl gear available like the i725 dungeon set would cut into the crafting market, you can't deny this. It's an inevitability. The fact you're trying to twist that fact to fit your needs and twisting what I've said says all I need. It will have an effect, how big? As I've said, I don't know. I don't play that market. Your story proves it would affect it. Forgetting price, why get i740 if all you do is casually play? The dungeon set selling for a bit cheaper is all you'd need.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Again as someone who's played MMO's that actually require players to do things I very much understand your sentiment, but the game is currently insanely easy, and I don't think trading dungeon gear so that some FC mates who had lesser gear could reach the arbitrary min ilvl matters when the skills to do their rotation hasn't changed for over a year.

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(emphasis mine)

This is why I said earlier that "if you don't like FFXIV's gear treadmill, fair enough." Because that's exactly the problem you're describing. Some people stepped off the treadmill for a bit, and now, in the current state of the game, they have to spend some effort or gil to catch up. (Why do we need to increase our ilvl? Because SE said so. It otherwise generally makes no difference to one's experience unless you're running older content unsynced.)

So, that said, why make only dungeon gear tradable? Why not also tomestone gear? Normal raid gear? Savage raid gear? You had extra dungeon gear on hand. I've had extra normal raid tokens and tomestones on hand. Where would you draw the line that says this gear must needs be acquired through one's own blood, sweat, and tears?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

(emphasis mine)

This is why I said earlier that "if you don't like FFXIV's gear treadmill, fair enough." Because that's exactly the problem you're describing. Some people stepped off the treadmill for a bit, and now, in the current state of the game, they have to spend some effort or gil to catch up. (Why do we need to increase our ilvl? Because SE said so. It otherwise generally makes no difference to one's experience unless you're running older content unsynced.)

So, that said, why make only dungeon gear tradable? Why not also tomestone gear? Normal raid gear? Savage raid gear? You had extra dungeon gear on hand. I've had extra normal raid tokens and tomestones on hand. Where would you draw the line that says this gear must needs be acquired through one's own blood, sweat, and tears?

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Id be fine if SE just gave me new gear (cosmetics) every 'x' level and that was it. I have no desire to go on the gear treadmill. I feel no arpg 'WOOOO' when I get something good.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Lol you are actually miserable.

1. I didn't say it explicitly because I didn't say it at all and that wasn't even what this post was about, but you read it that way because you got mad that someone criticized the game aka your personality.
2. You're literally using a strawman how tf are you saying that's me!? You can't tell me what we all experienced and went through. Others have also validated it. Do you even know what a strawman is?
3. Yeah convenient you strawman focusing on a supporting point and acting like its a main one. The point is that you can't argue time investment for skill purposes because rotations stay the exact same through entire expansions 99% of the time. Does that make sense to you? If otherwise we can buy gear off the marketboard, why shouldn't we be able to do content on day one of the patch after not playing for months? Thats how the game operates right? That's what you specifically said you didn't like right?

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checked your tomestone. you don't actually play. gg.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

checked your tomestone. you don't actually play. gg.

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It's pretty obvious. No one playing since Stormblood would complain about a 1.5M earring listing 4 months after release. It sells for cheaper than that, as early as day 1. Cheapest right now is 80k. Also called you "miserable" while asking for empathy multiple times in this thread. Clear ragebait.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

It's pretty obvious. No one playing since Stormblood would complain about a 1.5M earring listing 4 months after release. It sells for cheaper than that, as early as day 1. Cheapest right now is 80k. Also called you "miserable" while asking for empathy multiple times in this thread. Clear ragebait.

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Actually, doing some quick universalis history on purchases, yeah... Even on crystal, most gear at max sold for 200k and that's the high end. I guess hyperbole is the only way to get their points across on "expensive" gear

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Originally Posted by Bryson

checked your tomestone. you don't actually play. gg.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

It's pretty obvious. No one playing since Stormblood would complain about a 1.5M earring listing 4 months after release. It sells for cheaper than that, as early as day 1. Cheapest right now is 80k. Also called you "miserable" while asking for empathy multiple times in this thread. Clear ragebait.

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I just think it's funny that you people think you're defending something, but you are the shining example of toxicity that pushes people away from this community. You don't want the game to be better, and you don't actually want the game to be more popular, you just want your little echo chamber and safe space that makes you feel like you're some kind of "god gamer" in arguably the most casual game out because that's how you have determined your worth. GG's mates. There are no arguments to be had with people of this much bad faith.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

It by design would.

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I’m going to take this point by point since now I think you were just trying to hide being adversarial since you said a few specific things that completely ignored other things I said.
“It by design would. If dungeon gear was tradable, then less people would buy the crafted items. How many? I wouldn't know as I said, I don't play the market.”
- So you don’t actually know that it would BREAK anything. Crafted gear is still significantly better than dungeon gear. Dungeon gear is basically useless. There is even an argument to be had that dungeon gear itself is broken because it’s non tradeable, and I believe in most cases non sellable.

“I'm not adversarial, just being devil's advocate with the understanding of 'less time.' (as stated in previous comments about understanding limited time) Playing a game is planning around the little time you do have. Tell me you didn't put time aside to play this patch and it was on a whim. If it was on a whim, expecting to try brand new content unprepared is... I can't find a pretty word for it, but the best I can find is self centered.”
- You’re not being a devils advocate and here’s why. 1. This game is LITERALLY designed to be picked up on a whim. Yoshi P. has said that multiple times. 2. For the BILLIONTH time, I was prepared, I was simply trying to help others so they could play. I think that’s THE OPPOSITE of self centered. I think you constantly trying to weasel your way to a weird argument that doesn’t make sense because you don’t like when people critique any part of the game is actually self centered.

“I still don't see how even sending a quick message to someone you know who crafts to assist on your return being sweaty. It's called proper preparation.”
- It’s bad faith of you to try and rehash this AGAIN to try and act like it’s a new point because I already answered this point, in that no one was available at the time. That said, since I feel like being a little meaner now, the game doesn’t operate that way. And on top of that I laugh so hard at people trying to argue preparation as if it it’s some kind of 5d chess level move in this game. You people don’t have a clue what real preparation is. Go play Everquest. Go play FFXI. Go play Diablo II. Go to any game that actually has RPG stats and that requires farming specific gear for a specific fight in which the gear itself sometimes requires farming specific things for that too, or unlocking different things. These arguments are so elitist for a game that is designed to be on easy mode. All my recommendation does, is say “hey I noticed that compared to how the rest of the game is, this seems like a weird barrier, can we get this fixed so it’s more in line with the rest of the systems?”

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

Actually, doing some quick universalis history on purchases, yeah... Even on crystal, most gear at max sold for 200k and that's the high end. I guess hyperbole is the only way to get their points across on "expensive" gear

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And once again another example of you being bad faith except you didn’t try to hide it this time. Multiple people in this thread have confirmed this and given explanations as to why that happened. I even responded to them meaning those comment showed up multiple times. I’m just glad you went mask off for a minute so people who read this can see it.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

(emphasis mine)

This is why I said earlier that "if you don't like FFXIV's gear treadmill, fair enough." Because that's exactly the problem you're describing. Some people stepped off the treadmill for a bit, and now, in the current state of the game, they have to spend some effort or gil to catch up. (Why do we need to increase our ilvl? Because SE said so. It otherwise generally makes no difference to one's experience unless you're running older content unsynced.)

So, that said, why make only dungeon gear tradable? Why not also tomestone gear? Normal raid gear? Savage raid gear? You had extra dungeon gear on hand. I've had extra normal raid tokens and tomestones on hand. Where would you draw the line that says this gear must needs be acquired through one's own blood, sweat, and tears?

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So I know I’ve had to fight off the hoard in this thread but I just want to clarify that that is not my tone with you since I don’t think you’re coming off the same way.

That said, first and foremost my ONLY point is that we should be able to trade dungeon gear. I NEVER made any argument about the gearing treadmill, I only used it as a SUPPORTING point. Not a critique on the gearing treadmill itself. Anything done to dungeon gear doesn’t by itself solve that issue, at all, if it is an issue for you.

Second, I’ve mentioned it previously to others, but I’m not oblivious to how this game operates currently, and I think that the buck probably should stop with only letting dungeon gear be tradeable. The reason is that it is significantly worse than all of the others you have mentioned, and being able to trade the gear doesn’t break the game, if anything it makes something that was otherwise useless and annoying to have to sift through another worthwhile dot on the line of FFXIV’s current vertical gear progression. It would encourage more player interaction, and it would give current AT LEVEL dungeons more replayability. It doesn’t really compete with crafted gear either, because it’s still a lot worse.

Third, if anything, it seems that in it’s current state its an old broken system that wastes resources. I mean I haven’t seen anyone try to argue this yet, but I could see someone try to assign value to the gear for glam reasons, but if that’s the case, then why not just make the gear tombstone gear but another variant that we can pick from. It just feels like another MMORPG system that is in the game because we’re supposed to have it, when in reality we all know this game plays more like a solo multiplayer game these days. I’m just simply advocating to make the items useful again, and because I was in a situation where they would have been useful but there was an arbitrary barrier to making them useful I wrote about it and threw it in the hat of suggestions. We still accomplished our task, and as much as people complain about what they think our investment should be, we played the game as designed and did the content in that play session with some people not having been around for quite a while.

I'll try and keep this one a bit briefer because I respect the effort you're putting into responding to so many people.

1. I'd argue that it isn't arbitrary because it would directly impact sale of crafted gear, in some way, shape or form.

2. You still need to spend gil that you've accumulated to buy gear, which then goes directly into another player's pocket. On a positive note - glad to hear you all put some team-work in. I admire that. You could've also all just run content together to gear up.

3. Being able to trade dungeon gear would likely undermine current systems of progression and player interaction. It would certainly effect the market board, considerably. Grind is not arbitrary.

The rest of my post got swallowed. I hate this forum.

4. It promotes engagement because the aquicisition of gil, and communication with crafters and other players -is- engagement. I don't know how much gil you are personally able to earn on a two hour time-slot, but I have a bare minimum approach which nets millions if not tens of millions, with very little time investment. Failing that - I'm generally ready and prepped for content I'm interested in tackling. It promotes player engagement when I ask my friends weeks prior if they want to run roulettes, or help me out with some crafting or gathering.

If we opt your mentality, that you're expressing, why should we stop at -just- dungeon gear? Why not make it so that one active player can just tomestone farm for their entire FC and friendlist? Why not just make it so that soul-binding is obsolete? I mean heck. If gear level is so arbitrary, then why don't we just remove stats entirely and make it so that level is the only requirement?