TOP cleared with no healers

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Like they did with PvP?

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Hey, so long as all the other DoW still have an MP gauge, what the heck.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Joy. Now we're going to have to deal with SE making judgements on the game because of midcore players taking the actions of top tier players who are playing the highest tier of combat duties as law.

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Basically my thoughts. Throughout MMO history, situations such as this that make what shouldn't be possible, possible. It takes exceptionally skilled and coordinated players to pull off. Meanwhile, for us scrubs, plenty of situations that warrant healers are all over the place. I still haven't cleared Rubicante EX without the group getting busted up by Immolation with spread AoEs. I also just recently had a Orbonne run where about 2/3rds of the alliance was wiped out by the combined mechanics prior to the phase transition for the last boss. There was no way that raid was going to get saved without healers.

I've said it many times here. The more skilled a group is, the less they need healers. It's not news, and has been this way for a very long time. That doesn't mean I'm ok with that. It's kind of a bummer that healers are needed more the less skilled a group is. It's one of my biggest gripes in this game. However, if they scale up healing requirements, clear rates will drop like an anvil in a shallow lake.

This won't do anything to change the dev's stance on healing. They might congratulate the players that accomplished this feat though. It really is exceptional, and hats off to them.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

However, if they scale up healing requirements, clear rates will drop like an anvil in a shallow lake.

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Might have the opposite effect. [Skilled] Healers might return to the job because the current design is atrocious and boring to play.

Before someone brings up this current savage tier, I can already tell you don't play a healer if you think MIT checks are heal checks.

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This won't do anything to change the dev's stance on healing. They might congratulate the players that accomplished this feat though. It really is exceptional, and hats off to them.

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You're right, they won't. The dev team is showing just how mediocre they are with Endwalker, and it'll just be more of the same come next expansion. Just means more people will either ditch the Healer role, or quit the game come 7.0.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Just means more people will either ditch the Healer role, or quit the game come 7.0.

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What actually makes you think either of those will happen, other than wishful thinking?

Try this, go to Radz at Han, Limsa, and Gridania and fill the chat logs with shouts that TOP was cleared without healers, and see what kind of response you get.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Monkey's paw just spasms wildly as SE completely misreads the situation at hand and somehow manage to dumb down healers even further.

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Sadly, that is exactly what they'll do because we've already seen it happen. Bard was once the most popular DPS in the game but a handful of players would whine it was "too complex". Which led to the lobotomization it underwent from Shadowbringers onward all in the name of accessibility. Turns out making the job simpler didn't bring in as many new players but certainly drove away many who once liked Bard as it's tumbled all the way down to being the least played DPS. Even Black Mage is more popular nowadays.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

The devs already know there is no satisfying everyone so they don’t even try. It’s good they don’t. I’m pretty sure if next expansion they gave healers mains everything they been asking for there will be people still complaining about something. The devs just can’t win.

These kinda post are so redundant now.

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Thing is... they haven't really satisfied anyone here. Complaints about the monotony of healer gameplay isn't coming exclusively from the raid community. In fact, I've heard just as a loud a vocalization from mid-level and even casual players who don't partake in a lot of high end content, or any at all. They're also bored because half their kit is utterly meaningless. Lilybell isn't exciting to your average player because when will they ever use it? Not even a lot of the EXs this expansion demand it, much less 24 mans or dungeons. That isn't to say it doesn't have its uses in those content but when Assize and Asylum can handle everything, it's not exactly hype to have yet another heal. Not to mention more casual players are playing how the devs thinks we should: using Medica and Medica II. Which only nullifies the value of things like Lilybell futher.

There's such a thing is not trying to satisfy everyone and just satisfying no one instead. It's lazy design that we're four years into Healer's only gameplay loop being spam a single nuke 500 times. And no, that isn't a hyperbolic number. I've had 500+ casts of Glare in 24 mans, more than every other button combined.

Weren't Ultimates the reason healers haven't been touched i.e the reason to be. We've all known that was a lie, but seeing it is another thing. It doesn't matter that it takes coordination to do this, the fact it's even doable in the first place should ring alarms as healers reason to be is now questionable. This is why they shouldn't take the healing route when balancing healers and instead look to other mmos in how healing is operated as a support with good damage, damaging skills, combos etc. If they are not going to ramp up damage so this isn't possible, allow for support skills and damaging skills on the skillsets to make up for it [add back value to the role]. Increase enemy hp and difficulty so healers dmg and support is taken into consideration also. It wouldn't solve all the issues but it would be better than what they've been doing, bloating the kits with healing.

I have nothing against skilled players doing this without a healer, the issue lies that it's possible when the reason they gave that healer kits would not be touched is because difficult content would make it hard on us to do anything but and we should just go play ultimate. If ultimate doesn't require, than what is the healer purpose?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Try this, go to Radz at Han, Limsa, and Gridania and fill the chat logs with shouts that TOP was cleared without healers, and see what kind of response you get.

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And? This isn't some gotcha that you think it is. TOP is just another example showing how poor of a state the healer role is currently in and the state of utility among DPS/Tanks being too powerful.

They're not needed for casual/dungeon content. They're a snooze fest if your team is even halfway competent in Extreme/Savage content. They have their entire dps kit starting at level 4, and press the same button ~90% of the time.

No one wants to continue playing a role that's only function is to be there for garbage dps/tank players. That's not how you design a fun and interesting role.

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What actually makes you think either of those will happen, other than wishful thinking?

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There will be other MMOs coming out. I've also never seen or heard dps players or tank players fight to see who can be the healer for the next tier, as hard as I've seen healers fight over who can gtfo of the role.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

And? This isn't some gotcha that you think it is. TOP is just another example showing how poor of a state the healer role is currently in and the state of utility among DPS/Tanks being too powerful.

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It's not a gotcha. The gotcha is what's being attempted by saying a set of skilled players cleared TOP without healers. Exception is never the rule. Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game. I can't even begin to express how shameful that is. What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

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No one wants to continue playing a role that's only function is to be there for garbage dps/tank players. That's not how you design a fun and interesting role.

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I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

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There will be other MMOs coming out. I've also never seen or heard dps players or tank players fight to see who can be the healer for the next tier, as hard as I've seen healers fight over who can gtfo of the role.

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Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

They should do something about the enrage timers, if that is possible... same with the old Ultimates so they fit in with the damage bonusses various jobs get each time you get a new expansion...

If you can do it without heals, take 30 seconds off the current enrage.

Eh, 90%+ of players still need healers in their groups. A very small minority being able to clear content with a non-standard group is okay imo.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game.

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The dev team 100% deserves to be chastise especially after Yoshi-Ps tone deaf "Go play ultimate" bs when he was questioned about the state of healers lack of healing/dps.

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I can't even begin to express how shameful that is.

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K.

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What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones?

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Then we would be questioning why it was labeled as an ultimate in the first place. If TOP was cleared without Tanks or DPS, then we would be having a discussion about those jobs.

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Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

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Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the current state of healers while involving on patch content being cleared without one of the major roles.

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I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Of course, the typical response to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

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I'm happy that you still enjoy the healer role. If you keep having multiple people tell you the same thing, then there might be some truth to it.

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Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

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I have quit other MMOs for the same issues FFXIVs healers are experiencing. I've seen others do the same.

I guess we're also forgetting the whole healer shortage this tier experienced and Yoshi-Ps heartfelt "please give healers a try" comment.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Eh, 90%+ of players still need healers in their groups. A very small minority being able to clear content with a non-standard group is okay imo.

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Designing a role around babysitting players doesn't make for compelling gameplay when the party you have doesn't require it.

Hence the majority of the complaints around the role is how absolutely mind-numbingly boring it is to play.

Nothing to worry about, just in prep for 7.0 when healers are no longer required for duty finder queues. SE has heard the complaints about healers and their shortages. SE has decided to make them completely irrelevant. The new crit dungeons is just a test before going full scale.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Its only healers, tanks have to tank LB and TB mechanics that force their existence and the dps checks in TOP are tight enough that removing dps is out of the question.

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The common sense approach would be to add healing checks but those kind of lose their entire point if tanks and dps can use their AoE and single target heals to meet them. Dps can raise too. Tanks, melee, ranged and casters can also provide party wide mitigation so healers aren't needed for that either. So what are healers for?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Eh, 90%+ of players still need healers in their groups. A very small minority being able to clear content with a non-standard group is okay imo.

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Absolutely! What I equate this to is walking a tight rope without the security of a safety net. It's takes an exceptional amount of talent, skill, practice, and confidence. It's actually quite amazing.

When I saw this, my initial reaction wasn't defeatist and thinking, "Well, guess I'm no longer needed." How could it be when my general experience in game doesn't reflect that outside a handful of rare encounters. I watched a group clear TOP and know how ridiculously hard that encounter is. My initial reaction was, "Wow! These players are friggin awesome!"

Healers in FFXIV provide security. A very small percentage of players are so exceptionally skilled that they don't make mistakes. And time away from an encounter can have them forget, or enter it rusty, and having to get reacquainted with it to perform flawlessly. Humans play FFXIV. It's just how it is. We make mistakes from honest to outright silly ones all the time.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

The dev team 100% deserves to be chastise especially after Yoshi-Ps tone deaf "Go play ultimate" bs when he was questioned about the state of healers lack of healing/dps.



K.



Then we would be questioning why it was labeled as an ultimate in the first place. If TOP was cleared without Tanks or DPS, then we would be having a discussion about those jobs.


Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the current state of healers while involving on patch content being cleared without one of the major roles.



I'm happy that you still enjoy the healer role. If you keep having multiple people tell you the same thing, then there might be some truth to it.



I have quit other MMOs for the same issues FFXIVs healers are experiencing. I've seen others do the same.

I guess we're also forgetting the whole healer shortage this tier experienced and Yoshi-Ps heartfelt "please give healers a try" comment.

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I'm not getting into this today. I don't have the energy, time, or patience for a hackneyed healer debate. We will just have to agree to disagree bud. Try to enjoy the game.

Huge congratulations to this team of players.

I suggest SE just change the healer role into a support role at this point. There's more benefit to changing that role so they can effectively buff+dps and heal without SE's weird stereotype that healers need to just become walking elixirs. Then again, the execs have to actually have the sapience to hire actual competent job designers to their small indie roster of 4 devs in charge of battle sys. and job design in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Exception is never the rule.

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Every single fight in this entire game has been solo healed on content. All four tanks, yes even Dark Knight, can blow through 90 dungeons without a healer. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were killed the week on Endwalker's launch without healers. While this is an exception at the Ultimate level, it does speak on to the poor design of both healers and the content itself because even Extremes shouldn't be killable at their relevant ilvl without a healer. That doesn't take away from the accomplishment.

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Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game.

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You can do both. They aren't mutually exclusive. This is simply strawmanning.

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What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.

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That would just mean TOP is woefully undertuned and a complete joke. Classes simply don't have anywhere close to the kits and damage necessary to complete an Ultimate. As for Creator example. Do you mean normal mode because that never happened at the Savage level, which is all that matters as normal doesn't have an enrage. It's simply a war of attrition. So long as bodies are alive, you'll win, eventually. If you have video evidence to the contrary, I'll happily stand corrected.

Considering the general playerbase is among those upset with how healing in dungeons is practically non-existent, the response might be what you think it will. Nonetheless, it's wholly irrelevant because, once again, acknowledging the accomplishment of eight exceptionally skilled players and the poor state of healer design in FFXIV aren't mutually exclusive. Not to mention, your average player isn't going to really care one way or another in content that don't even do. If you asked those same players was balance in Abyssos good. They'll either shrug, admitting they don't know or may even say yes despite it objectively being false given how many jobs were buffed afterwards.

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I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.

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You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

Now I will agree tank's have an absurd amount of healing, which is a factor. However, nerfing all of it to the ground won't make healer gameplay in high end content any better. You'll still be spamming a single button more than your entire kit combined. All it does is maybe force the occasional Cure II/E.Diag/Adlo/Benefic II. Trading a Glare cast for one of those isn't exactly riveting gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It's not a gotcha. The gotcha is what's being attempted by saying a set of skilled players cleared TOP without healers. Exception is never the rule. Instead of commending the efforts of those players, you are instead using it to chastise the dev team and the state of healing in this game. I can't even begin to express how shameful that is. What if TOP was cleared without players using their soulstones? Are we going to start saying that jobs are useless as well? I bring that up because Iirc, Creator was cleared by a group of players not using their Soulstones back during HW, and nothing like that was said. Those players were indeed congratulated. Also, I am actually genuinely curious to what kind of response a player would get if they went to the game's more populated areas during peak times, and started shouting this. At the very least, it would clue you in to how much the general playerbase cares about such things.


I enjoy it. So do a lot of other players. However, I don't think the problem is so much with healing as I do that other roles, particularly tanks have a ridiculous amount of self sustain. Also encounter design in general. Of course, the typical rebuttal to this argument is I don't even know what I am talking about, and/or I enjoy mediocre gameplay and crap job design.


Ok. Players skipping FFXIV to play other mmos will affect all the roles. Not just healers. Do you think just healer mains are going to jump ship to play other games? Also, quite often when I hop into PF when I am in the mood to heal content, those slots are often filled up, and I have to go as DPS instead, or do something else. Whose experience is more valid here?

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https://gumlet.assettype.com/afkgami...e&enlarge=true

the devs are not at fault for healers being absolutely terrible guys, it's obviously these guys just being too good, it cant be the devs, NOT THE DEVS ! it's the players guys ! Leave alone the multimillion dollar company !

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

Now I will agree tank's have an absurd amount of healing, which is a factor. However, nerfing all of it to the ground won't make healer gameplay in high end content any better. You'll still be spamming a single button more than your entire kit combined. All it does is maybe force the occasional Cure II/E.Diag/Adlo/Benefic II. Trading a Glare cast for one of those isn't exactly riveting gameplay.

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So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

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it's almost like you are supposed to need healers in high end content

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Absolutely! What I equate this to is walking a tight rope without the security of a safety net. It's takes an exceptional amount of talent, skill, practice, and confidence. It's actually quite amazing.

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Meanwhile back in reality....

https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=476

Sure, no disorganised or casual group is going to achieve this, but then no disorganised or casual group is going to clear TOP regardless.

Trying to suggest that a group needs to be 'exceptionally skilled' or needs 'perfect flawless play' is a flat out lie, either to yourself or to us (don't care which). There are a wealth of errors and mistakes including wasted and missed mitigation and healing abilities from the group. Yet they still made it through.

Please forward my criticism onto your Uncle Yoshida when you get a chance Mr self appointed community, developer and balance team rep. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Meanwhile back in reality....

https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=476

Sure, no disorganised or casual group is going to achieve this, but then no disorganised or casual group is going to clear TOP regardless.

Trying to suggest that a group needs to be 'exceptionally skilled' or needs 'perfect flawless play' is a flat out lie, either to yourself or to us (don't care which). There are a wealth of errors and mistakes including wasted and missed mitigation and healing abilities from the group. Yet they still made it through.

Please forward my criticism onto your Uncle Yoshida when you get a chance Mr self appointed community, developer and balance team rep. Thanks.

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So should TOP be harder in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

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Others have provided far better examples of healer changes on the Healer forums but to keep it simple, I either want more outgoing damage to actually necessitate healers or an overhaul on their DPS kit to give them something to do in downtime. The latter wouldn't impact casual players who simply won't press these new buttons anyway just like they don't use Battle Litany, Arcane Circle or other buffs properly. This is why the removal of Kaiten baffled and upset so many players. It achieved almost nothing due to bad players never pressing it to begin with and average and above players never asking for its removal in the first place. All it accomplished is watering down Samurai's gauge to be a "spam this whenever you feel like." Unless you're optimizing, of course.

For a specific example, take Barbarriccia. What I love about that fight is the fast pace nature of her damage. She's constantly keeps hitting you with incremental triage that leads up to a bigger burst. If her damage output was actually high, she's been one of the better fights in the entire game because you'd actually have to heal. The issue is since Shadowbringers, the devs keep introducing more healing, be it on the Healers themselves or on other roles but haven't adjusted the content to account for it. That mindset also contributes to why we absolutely destroy synced content. Their balance is all about accessibility. Which is great, in theory, but not when it's to this extreme.

We've essentially hit the opposite end of Gordias and Midas where everything hit far too hard for what was available at the time. Now nothing hits hard enough even at the higher difficulty levels. I mean, look at Rubicante. Yes, it's an EX but do you really think it should be clearable with 22 deaths on release? Or that we can drop tanks or healers entirely because literally nothing he does, even the tank buster, actually hurts.

It’s not a question of difficulty, it’s a question of designing healers (and the other roles) for this game, not some hypothetical one that may or may not have existed.

Regarding rubicante, with enough copium could it be a meta commentary on the four fiends being a bit rubbish really?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So should TOP be harder in your opinion?

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No? I'm not sure why you think that? I think Top (And frankly, Savage + Ultimate in general) needs to be more inventive with how they get healer engagement going.

We've had fights that were great fun in the past. Remember A5S? Solo healing + handling potions was intense and an all time favourite of mine. Remember A2S where the healer would handle gob walkers? Not a classic turn but it was a neat distraction and I certainly enjoyed it. DemonChad where both tanks were getting curb stomped all fight long often with mechanics that prevented them from being near each other for AoE heals? Good times. Godka where the movement heavy dodge intermission phases were literally the med break for the healers because the rest of the fight was an absolute barrage of damage and 1 shots. Even Coil had little things such as Imdugud's Prey forcing us to shield our DPS or fights that forced the group to spread making it impossible to lean on AoE healing alone.

By comparison modern fights base their difficulty around how much mitigation is required to survive x raid wide. This is a problem because A) Raidwide mitigation is only partially our responsibility now, thus even without healers, a team such as this still has plenty of mitigation and B) Said raidwides may be literally minutes apart.

there's a clear correlation between modern healer enjoyer and their inability to understand the simple point that the TOP clear is an indication of a problem, not the problem itself

what's the common variable? IQ?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Others have provided far better examples of healer changes on the Healer forums but to keep it simple, I either want more outgoing damage to actually necessitate healers or an overhaul on their DPS kit to give them something to do in downtime.

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Once again, going to remind everyone, that there is already a healer in the game that can clear savage and has more than few buttons for DPS - blue mage. Their existing strong specialized heals might be enough that I would not be surprised if BLU does not get new heal spells in upcoming update.

All existing content is already clearable for this kind of healer so reworking existing healers to be more DPS focused will not require any content rework. And having few strong heals instead of existing fluff would allow to design new content to actually hurt.

This doesn’t apply to 99.99% of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

This doesn’t apply to 99.99% of the player base.

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Yes because they dont do ultimate. But casuals can instead do dungeons without healers. WAR + 3 DPS can do any dungeon and doesnt require any ElItE SkIlLz. Healers are obsolete in 90% of the content and the 10% is as a safety net when things go south, if they dont, then healers are not needed period

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

The real healer is Warrior and Paladin :)

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The real Healers are the Tanks we met along the way?

That kinda suggests the problems are Tanks having too much healing...

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Doesn't excuse the fact that the hardest content in the game should not be clearable without healers. It shows an entire role is completely disposable in all facets of the game.

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Except it doesn't, because almost no one can do this, and even this was only possible with a VERY specific comp and VERY specific strategy.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Exactly.

Give DDs decent self heal, give healers a proper dps rotation and rebrand them as support dps jobs. Easiest way to solve the healer issue.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

If healers cannot outdamage Damage Dealers, contents clearable without healers are still clearable without healers.

Giving healers engaging damage tools doesn't solve the issue entirely

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Exactly.

If people are already clearing without Healers, how would Healers having more dps buttons/rotation and doing LESS healing while everyone else does more fix the problem, exactly?

Not to mention all that'll do is piss off people that actually want to play Healers. A lot of prior Healers already don't like PvP Healing now since it actually IS a case of "Healers are not needed at all" and all their actual HEALS are gated behind CDs.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

Its not broken. Because somebody can do it doesnt mean, its a rule. They have very specific comp with well planed mitigation and healing sheet (Like... how many times have you seen DNC using his heal to help the party lol).

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

UCoB can be done with over 100 deaths if very well planed.

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That's...that's...wut? o.O rofl, how's THAT even possible? XD

Agreed with you overall - what healing needs isn't more DPS/damage rotation, what it needs to to actually have things to heal. Spot healing, debuff cleanses, heal checks, etc. And agreed this example proves literally none of the thing people are trying to use it to prove.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You don't partake in high end content, which is what this discussion centers around. I recall you not even having a character at 90 for months into Endwalker's life cycle. Which is fine... until you want to comment on the healing requirements (or lack thereof) in Savage and Ultimate. You don't know what you're talking about because you literally don't do the content. That is an entirely fair rebuttal in this context.

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This is wrong, you know why?

1) This is being used to suggest ALL CONTENT needs to change/is in a state, not just "Savage and Ultimate". So Gemina and anyone else doing those other forms of comment have a say as well.

2) Many people who DO "literally do the content" don't agree with your position.

3) It's also an ad hominem/attack on the messenger fallacy. What is wrong with HER ARGUMENT? Anyone can say "you don't know what you're talking about", she could say that about you. That's why it's a logical fallacy. You either can say why someone's argument is wrong or you cannot.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

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And, specifically, in what ways would change be implemented that doesn't affect normal content or Extremes (since those aren't "Savage or Ultimate")?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

For a specific example, take Barbarriccia.

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My big issue with BarbiEx was that you're required to move too much. So what does this do? It means almost all healing is done with oGCDs. This just means more Broilspam. The damage output being that high is fine, but the movement needs to be less to compensate.

Then we went and hit Ex5 with the stupid stick and did a 180 where the damage is low for most of the fight AND the movement is a lot less. But then the damage comes all at once at the end...in the middle of tons of movement. It's like the Devs are intentionally designing fights to not only require oGCD healing but disallow GCD healing due to not being able to stand still to cast it when it's most needed. They need to flip that.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

what's the common variable? IQ?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

Yes because they dont do ultimate. But casuals can instead do dungeons without healers. WAR + 3 DPS can do any dungeon and doesnt require and ElItE SkIlLz. Healers are obsolete in 90% of the content and the 10% is as a safety net when things go south, if they dont, then healers are not needed period

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And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

This doesn’t apply to 99.99% of the player base.

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This concept isn't actually new. I literally tanked expert and 90 dungeons without healers on my paladin and warrior.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

This doesn’t apply to 99.99% of the player base.

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But it does. Either you're not paying attention enough to notice it or you're willingly ignore it. This sort of thing happens at all levels of the end game.

There's the video I linked above. That was from an old thread here, it was a pug, the healers died early and an entirely bang average group continued on to kill a current and relevant Extreme with no issues.

How many times have you seen the healer die in a dungeon like Dead Ends and again, the tank just carries the rest of the fight, maybe even solos it. I can probably dig up logs if you really must.

This is a problem at all levels of play in the end game and IMHO as someone who literally still has 'pocket healbot' as their lodestone bio, it's just depressing at this stage.

In Everquest, if I was alive, you were alive too. I was known as a powerhouse of healing and survivability and unless it was a death touch, you weren't dieing before me. I felt mighty, I felt impactful.

In WoW PvP, if I was alive, you were alive too. I was known as a powerhouse of healing and survivability and in open world and BGs, if I was covering you, you weren't dieing before me. I felt mighty, I felt impactful.

In FFXIV, I'm topping you up between raidwides and doing ~half your damage. That's about the extent of my responsibilities as a healer now. There's only so much I can save you from and that rapidly dwindles to little to nothing once you hit Savage. Dropping huge HPS bombs is neither productive, nor even remotely optimal and for the bulk of the time. I feel like a DPS but instead of engaging gameplay mechanics, I get a cooldown spreadsheet with my co-healer.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

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And they would do healer-less clears if the df allowed it. Recently had a prae run where we got all the way up the last boss with PLD, SMN and whatever third dps was cause the healer straight up quit at the start. The non-avoidable damage in this game is laughable and in older content not even the avoidable damage is threatening and you may aswell stand in everything to make the runs go faster.

It's not exactly hard content, but on release there were at least a few tank only runs of dark within because the queues were taking ages. Thinking back, I'm pretty sure the healer died to every boss in tower of babil and it wasn't an issue to a blind party (before it was so widely obvious just how silly tank's party sustain was).

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So are you arguing that you want the high end content more difficult to force people to use healers? Or at least that healers are much more important in high end content?

If not that, how do you want high end content to change?

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I missed this one sorry, it's an interesting question and I'll merrily expand on it.

Personally, if Uncle Yoshi came down and hired me overnight, I'd make a few changes. Some being quick fixes, some being more long term changes in design direction.

Literally the first thing I'd do before I took my jacket off would be to allow bosses to continue to auto attack through some means whilst casting. The main goal of this is to prevent situations like RubiEX where the fight literally goes well over a minute at a time between attacks. This also almost instantly course corrects the current lack of tank damage and brings value to once key abilities like Regen again.

Secondly, I'd have try to ensure that physically larger or multi sectioned bosses would be able to have multiple auto attacks with various different ways of deciding how those attacks are directed. Remember how large FFXI monsters were able to not only bite and claw, but could kick and spike flail (Tail cleave) as well? Think that, but all at the same time. Remember Rampage targets in Everquest? The goal is something similar to that but ideally more erratic and obviously scaled appropriately for the content. The idea isn't to one shot people randomly, but rather the idea is to actually force healers to need to pay attention to the groups HP bars again even when content is on farm.

Third, I'd scale overall HP and single target heals upwards moderately, but keep AoE heals where they are or maybe even nerf them lightly. Right now you can comfortably heal most pre Savage end game content by doing little more than maintaining Medica II. You won't run out of MP and the healing is depressingly sufficient. That's not a situation I'm happy with. Mixing up the full party raidwides with the occasional need for actual somewhat unpredictable single target triage healing due to the usual Assize/Asylum/Soil/Star/WD spam not being able to cover it would do wonders to break up the current monotony IMO.

Fourth and probably not last, I'd look to drastically expand both the job and content design team's views on healing engagement. Healers need to stop being treated like green DPS in raid content when their kits just don't support that play style.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And yet almost no "casuals" do this. The people doing this tend to be high end players with their Static buddies wanting to farm faster clears. Casuals are just using DF.

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https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=471

Here's some pug casuals continuing on merrily on then peak endgame content after both healers went pop. The casuals might not be queuing up in this way but it doesn't mean they aren't finishing it long after the healers checked out.

There's a simple reason why MSQ content and similar being clearable without a healer is a problem:

When you are that (sprout) healer, and you die, and everyone carries on without you well and fine… it just feels bad being shown exactly how unneeded your skills and presence are.

Or I don't know, maybe that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This is wrong, you know why?

1) This is being used to suggest ALL CONTENT needs to change/is in a state, not just "Savage and Ultimate". So Gemina and anyone else doing those other forms of comment have a say as well.

2) Many people who DO "literally do the content" don't agree with your position.

3) It's also an ad hominem/attack on the messenger fallacy. What is wrong with HER ARGUMENT? Anyone can say "you don't know what you're talking about", she could say that about you. That's why it's a logical fallacy. You either can say why someone's argument is wrong or you cannot.

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1) This thread and the discussion of TOP pertains to high end content. Furthermore, pretty much everyone has acknowledged changes to the healer design, be they a more flushed out DPS kit, actual healing requirements or some combination of the two wouldn't impact casual players because they wouldn't have to use them in the content they partake in. We needs only look to Heavensward and even Stormblood to see that.

2) Just like in the other thread, you're once again arguing semantics and simply using a different modifier that makes your argument sound better without actually presenting a rebuttal. You have no idea "MANY" who do the content feel anything is wrong with healers. Meanwhile, I do have ample evidence "some" do considering it's been the biggest talking point alongside the two minute meta this entire expansion. Any other word is just semantics.

3) I suggest you look up that fallacy. Gemina directly mentioned that being a source of criticism she's received. Therefore, it was apart of her argument hence my response. Now, you're correct. She could say that about me. I, however, have prove of actually healing high end content. So it wouldn't exactly get her very far. So if that's why "it's a logical fallacy". Congratulations on proving why it doesn't apply in this context.

But even taken at face value, her lack of participation in Savage/Ultimate is still relevant to the discussion because she's dismissing any sort of criticism towards the healing design and insisting this is merely an "exception to the rule." As Sebazy as pointed out, we have several examples that it isn't. Sure, Zodiark is a far cry from TOP but the point of contention people have isn't just the content itself but that it's even possible to clear any endgame content, especially high end difficulties, without a healer.

Put simply, it isn't the clear itself that's the problem but a launching pad for discussing the flaws in both content and healer design that allows for it to even happen in the first place. This can and has included overall healing such as the abundance given to tanks as another contributing factor.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

...

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1) No, because it's used to draw conclusions about Healer Jobs IN ALL CONTENT, as well AS ALL CONTENT.

2) No, you're trying to negate arguments without actually making counter arguments.

3) You failed to actually offer a rebuttal. All it proved is she has a say. You can't just ignore or write off the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you while talking about issues that matter to them.

4) It literally is an exception to the rule. A person doesn't have to have a physics degree to say "rain is falling right now" when it's raining. And you saying "Pah! You don't have a degree in physics or meteorology! You aren't in a position to tell me whether or not it's raining!"

4b) Ex5 has been cleared with 1 Healer + 7 DPS. Is that proof Tanks aren't needed in the game or that there's a serious problem with content not needing Tanks?

5) If the clear is used to talk about the rest of the game, everyone gets a say. Moreover, the flaws are in the content design, TANK design and DPS design.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

4) It literally is an exception to the rule. A person doesn't have to have a physics degree to say "rain is falling right now" when it's raining. And you saying "Pah! You don't have a degree in physics or meteorology! You aren't in a position to tell me whether or not it's raining!"

4b) Ex5 has been cleared with 1 Healer + 7 DPS. Is that proof Tanks aren't needed in the game or that there's a serious problem with content not needing Tanks?

5) If the clear is used to talk about the rest of the game, everyone gets a say. Moreover, the flaws are in the content design, TANK design and DPS design.

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just a 4, 4b and 5 answer

4) Its not a exception to the rule, every content released in the game has seen solo healer and no healer clears, regardless of its difficulty. If it were only TOP or only an Ex it would speak about those fights, when it happens ON EVERY SINGLE ULTIMATE and content below then it suddenly stops being an exception and becomes the rule

4b) Tanks don't get removed out of dungeon speedruns because what they bring to the party is not useful, tanks don't see no-tank/solo tank clears for ultimates on patch nor they see no-tank/ solo tank for every piece of content in the game. Once again, this is not a problem just of TOP, TOP is just a very clear example of a long running problem in healer design.

5) lol that "everyone but me" mentality. Sure despite healers having the problems, the cause of those is everything else in the game, not that the healers have been dumbed to the point they no longer fit the game