I'm sorry but can someone explain to me what they mean byQuote:
Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust durations being shorter than the combo durations
Buffs to dragoon
Printable View
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09-06-2020, 07:17 PMAxzeriuth
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09-06-2020, 07:57 PMBeddictYou have 15s to execute the next action in a combo, but the Enhanced Wheeling Thrust and Sharper Fang and Claw buffs only last for 10s. These buffs should see a duration increase so they properly match the combo duration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Axzeriuth
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09-07-2020, 08:45 AMAxzeriuth
Thank you. I understand the complaints now.
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09-09-2020, 10:14 PMRenkeiI Mained Dragoon since 2.0. You obviously must of not seen when they buffed monk in the early 2.0 cycle and didn't touch DRG until final coil.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
That's not true at all, Check Log data on your claims and Monk has had top fights in previous expansions Lots of different fights, I know because IVE Personally Cleared those many fights with a MONK!
Monk was superior in the Manipulator Fight in Gordias, I played with a Monk Through out my entire end game raiding cycle with the same exact Monk Since Second coil.
Manipulator, Brute Justice, Refurbisher 0, Were all great fights for monk as well.
The Closest fight in those cycles was cruise chaser.
I have personal Experience playing with a Monk for From Second Coil, All the way until Eden gate. We've toughly looked at issues in the design and it's plain and obvious that Monk has some serious clunky issues in the recent expansion, But your statements doesn't even disprove the fact.
Clearly your comment is just an attempt to Gas-light me I am fully aware that you and your close community has something out for me.
Dragoon was NEVER the top spot in this expansion. Its ALWAYS been dominated by BLM,SMN, and SAM.
This is something that has carried through in previous expansions too, and prior to Sam even existing it's always been BLM or SMN with some exceptions here and there.
You claiming that "Dragoon Finally slipping from the tog dog spot" IS out of touch, MNK was only inferior to DRG When Fist of Fire HAD the speed reduction, As soon as they fixed it They shot up to top melee, and then NIN got Buffed following it taking the crown, This shifted DRG into Third. At NO TIME IN THIS EXPANSION HAS DRG BEEN TOP DPS.
Matter of fact the only time DRG was DEFACTO best DPS was FINAL COIL, but the damage margin was so incredibly small it absolutely didn't even matter! (it beat MNK by 15 dps out of 718 i believe. whopping 733.)
All you did was attempt to make me question my View point without attempting to view actual Data, META doesn't always imply BEST, I'm waiting for you guys to understand that by opening a dictionary. Maybe when you learn how to META VIEW this discussion you'll start to understand that.
Popular choices doesn't mean the job is the best.
Dragoon is a Popular job that is being spun as broken because you are twice as likely to run into one outputting good damage regardless if they are IN or OUT of Standardized Misnomer "Meta".
I think its important to look at ALL balance with an systematic review.
Meta-analysis can be tainted because half of your information is from your community or your peers, How can you conduct Meta-analysis's without a systematic review is beyond me.
The only True statement that occurs for you is that they should change monk, But i also think they should change DRG, but first they need to change BRD, and MCH , And Honestly they have VERY limited solutions but to offload all Support RDPS abilities on to ranged classes because of the HUGE Front-loading of DNC.
Look I'm not implying DRG Isn't unplayable, but Neither was monk before they changed it, and after they changed it, and now its still out performing DRG and they plan on changing it again? To what? Top DPS? By the time they come around to DRG At least we will be doing more damage then BRD.
The only Changes are Proposed, 15 Second Fang/Wheeling, Renovation of Eyes, Removal of Dragon-Sight and shifting damage over to other abilities, these are all ideas for future improvement.
Lets Try having some Discourse about FFXIV-Balance here by Offering Solutions without shooting other people down, It does NOTHING for the community to behave in that fashion.
Lets not try having a monopoly on this discourse by carrying views of an outside community into the forums to control balance decisions. -
09-09-2020, 10:51 PMSpeckledBurdYou're forgetting that the DPS reports of Heavensward and Stormblood aren't at all comparable to the rDPS report metrics that are reported now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
In those expansions fflogs didn't report raid DPS, they only reported personal damage. In those days Monk had a negative raid contribution due to forcing tanks into Tank Stance courtesy of it's lack of aggro control and forcing ranged to play TP song due to it's TP burn, while Heavensward was when Dragoon's raid contribution was at it's most powerful.
In all of the fights you say Monk was "leading" in Heavensward, it was only by an incredibly slim margin of about 50-80~ personal DPS without considering what a Monk would do to the Tanks/Ranged party members by existing. This was when Dragoon was adding 200 DPS to any ranged you had in your party courtesy of the piercing debuff. That's more than enough to beat Monk's personal DPS alone by a huge margin for those days and it had an addition 150-200 DPS from Battle Litany on top of that. If the rDPS metric as it exists today were available for older fights, Monk in Heavensward would be as behind in rDPS as the ranged jobs are now, possibly more. The same is true for Stormblood, where even on fights like Demon Chadarnook when Monk was at its best and was able to do completely uninterrupted Tornado Kick rotation, the edge it had over Dragoon was only about 200 DPS which was eclipsed immediately by the piercing debuff and that gap was made even wider by both Dragon Sight and Battle Litany.
Dragoon has been unequivocally better than Monk for every fight from 3.0 until 5.0 in a normal comp. -
09-09-2020, 11:35 PMPayadopaCouldn't agree more. I'd prefer an animation lock over this sliding around on the floor at this point. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniolaut
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09-10-2020, 10:51 AMRamura_SonoThanks. We all needed a laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
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09-11-2020, 10:17 PMRenkeiYou say that then continue to try comparing the two metrics to each-other. So it's okay for you to compare but not me?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
Bard Using Army's Paeon was absolutely normal in play during that time period, it was always NORMAL even through out ARR. It was important to Invigorate as Early as you can without clipping its potency.
Ripping Hate off Tanks? That is Not normal what so ever, Through out all of heavenwards that was never an issue for our tanks, Maybe at your level of play it was but not my groups.
I want them to Change MNK because its Clunky.
Okay? How is this even constructive? Maybe because it's not? I expect no less from two representatives of "The Balance".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
The Truth is pretty funny isn't it. I mean you wouldn't know because your told what to think. -
09-11-2020, 10:58 PMSpeckledBurdI'm not comparing personal DPS to rDPS, I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward, where Dragoon's was massively higher the entire expansion, and Dragoon's rDPS in Stormblood to Monk's rDPS in Stormblood, where again, Dragoon's was massively stronger because Piercing, Battle Litany, and Dragon Sight was all collectively better than Monk's Personal damage and Brotherhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
Even if using Army's Paeon/Rook Promotion was normal, it was still required earlier and more often when you had a Monk in the party because of it's TP issues. Yes you hit Invigorate at 600 TP every time, but guess what, Monk used more TP than other jobs so even doing that Monk's TP burn went faster.
Ripping hate off tanks isn't something I mentioned so nice job trying to put words in my mouth. Also nice job trying to imply that I didn't raid in Heavensward and that I didn't know what I was doing, but I did and cleared all of Creator Savage well before Heavensward ended, and that was when the disparity between Monk and Dragoon was at it's greatest. -
09-12-2020, 09:26 AMRamura_SonoOPEN YOUR EYES SHEEPLE! THE MOON IS A LIE! FOR IT HAS TOLD ME SO!Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I couldn't care less what the balance says about anything. Nice try buttercup.
Trying to deny Dragoon has been anything other than strictly better than monk at any point after ARR is laughably ignorant. -
09-12-2020, 09:06 PMEliadil
Do you remember the time where every melee dps thread wasn't hijacked by "omg monk is the worst" messages ? Because I sure don't.
I want them to add a new forum category. Monk Arena. Where everybody can try their luck against a fervent monk player in an endless debate about which job is worst.
Anyway, back on topic, so we all basically agree that Dragoon doesn't need much apart the extended timer on Claw&Fang combo and maybe some other small QoL stuff ? -
09-13-2020, 03:39 PMRenkeiQuote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward
Those two metrics didn't exist in Heavensward which is my point, You can't compare metrics that didn't exist at the time. That's an "apples vs oranges" comparison.
Now with the cutting of Piercing and Litany I think it's more of a concern how much damage jobs like BLM/SMN/SAM do compared to jobs that have support Utility. Granted SMN has it and is doing amazing compared to the jobs that do have it.
Piercing Debuff > Monks Crushing Debuff was due to no classes exploiting Crush, Battle Litany is more flexible due to the Nature of Crit scaling OP at time of release, Dragon-Sight is actually pretty minor considering that it's damage output was similar to that of power surge. they are better then MNK Brotherhood But that's a comparison of 3 buffs Versus one, I've thought they should of done something earlier about Monks UTILITY; they thought Crushing Debuff and Dragons-kick INT Down + Trait Mantra Outweighed a buff?
It's important to note that B4B also increased damage output taken by the DRG causing magic damage to turn deadly in some situations to a minor extent for MNK too
you invigorated at 560 to prevent losing 40 TP was mainly due to its original potency being crazy low and DRG had it Traited, MNK managed a slightly lower tp cost, This gave monk a TP advantage in fights that required more mobility time and winding up on weaker targets an advantage to monks damage output, DRG had the disadvantage of having to wind up with heavy thrust and disembowel before receiving full output but monk had the advantage of not requiring it, This didn't show in every fight and often due to Tanks not having Invigorate which Lead to the fights having to have breaks for the tanks to GAIN TP.
Review historical TP Costs.
NODE : #45
"In those days Monk had a negative raid contribution due to forcing tanks into Tank Stance courtesy of it's lack of aggro control"
"Last edited by SpeckledBurd; 09-09-2020 at 04:07 PM. "
Quoting you and what that implies is that it forces tanks into tank stance due to it's lack of AGGRO Control. Implying that tanks MUST go into tank stance in order to compensate for the CE generated by Monks damage output. Nice try though.
MNK and DRG Disparity then was mainly due to the lack of Offensive utility that monk provided; I Don't see how that's relevant now when monks biggest problem is the Clunky Anatman opening it suffers with right now. Heavensward was mostly dominated by BLM/SMN/MCH/BRD, with rarely fights going to melee classes So I'd say there is biggest fish to fry then the feud in-between the two original melee DD's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
Once again every-time i've tried having a constructive conversation with you.
There is no need for you to feel cornered in such a fashion that you have to resort to Mocking/Gas-lighting but okay.
What you prefer they change DRG back to what it was pre-2.45 when DRG was in a less playable state?
2.45 Patch notes Source :
(https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cf56b933b99601)
Besides at least they are willing to look at MNK right now after already giving it a major adjustment.
Meanwhile the community is bashing any other job that needs to be looked at considering DRG is in LAST PLACE out of melee.
Matter of FACT Dragoon right now is barely doing 40 more DPS then DANCER is at higher tiers, and monk is out damaging it by 120.
That's why i find it really hard to believe you guys are serious at all when the evidence suggests otherwise.
FFLOGS Statics Aggregate.
[https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...regate=amount]
https://imgflip.com/i/4esex8 -
09-13-2020, 04:43 PMShurrikhanMax represents no more than history's best padded run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
99%, 95%, and 90% all tell a very different story. -
09-21-2020, 04:24 PMRenkeiQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
That's not true because the evidence you point that tells a "very different story" Tells the same exact story i am telling you.
All these are in RDPS
90th.
MNK 17,804.35 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -1421.9
Combined Total : 37,362.02
DRG 17,621.66 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -1,666.47
Combined Total : 36,909.79
Difference : Monk Wins at 244.57 Advantage.
95th
MNK 18,135.77 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -1,090.48
Combined Total : 37,362.02
DRG 17,982.30 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -1,305.83
Combined Total : 37,270.43
Difference : Monk Wins at 215.35 Advantage.
99th
MNK 18,689.27 - 19,226.25 CEILING : -536.98
Combined Total : 37,915.52
DRG 18,510.23 - 19,288.13 CEILING : -777.9
Combined Total : 37,798.36
Difference : Monk Wins at 240.92 Advantage.
Here's some more factual Evidence that is proving that Monks rework will just leave DRG in the dust, as its already in an advantaged position due to its higher minimal parse damage at all percentiles you mentioned.
you keep asserting those assessments but you don't follow through with the data. I've constantly reviewed meta-data thoroughly, The Biggest difference is there are more DRG's then MNK's, It's a population and Frequency issue then a damage issue, Do i want monk to be reworked? YES but only Anatman. They don't deserve an increase in damage output because their Minimum damage advantage DOUBLES the maximum damage advantage that DRG has. Balance wise they are in a great place EXCEPT for Anatman.
Its easier to argue that DRG and MNK need to be brought up to SAM/BLM/SMN levels -
09-21-2020, 04:52 PMShurrikhanAt the time of your initial comment, Dragoon was "barely doing 40 dps more than Dancer's" at one and only one level of play, Max. (That is, by the way, no longer true. Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM, while managing far nearer to SAM's damage than SAM manages relative to BLM. It does 293 more dps than Monk, if that actually mattered.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
If split by boss, such was also true only in one fight, Ifrit & Garuda - Max. (Note also that even at Max, Dragoon is ahead of Monk on all but that one fight. That is to say, one fight in particular perhaps unfairly screws over Dragoon, rather than Dragoon lacking for raw power. ...Similarly, in Eden's Gate, that distinction went to Eden Prime, while Dragoon was neck and neck with Monk on all other fights.)
In all other tiers or fights, Dragoon was within 2% of Monk (sometimes even in Dragoon's favor), i.e. a very different story than your "Dragoon is in last place" as if by a mile.
Also,
rDPS evaluation was already being done in Heavensward. It just wasn't the default setting of fflogs.Quote:
I'm comparing Dragoon's rDPS to Monk's rDPS in Heavensward
Those two metrics didn't exist in Heavensward which is my point, You can't compare metrics that didn't exist at the time. That's an "apples vs oranges" comparison.
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09-21-2020, 06:09 PMRenkeiI'm convinced that you are willing to spin anything in your favor regardless of evidence. Nothing has changed inbetween the balance of DRG and DNC. It's not behind, everything you said isn't true at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Nothing changed in-between the damage output of these jobs. you are comparing MAX damage and not Average.
You have to compare it with Averages.
You argue that it's ONE level of PLAY when you don't understand that it's under absolutely perfect circumstances that players have no control over like high 10% random damage roll CRIT,DH, CRIIT+DH, You cannot use such EXTREMES as a metric for balance because it's an appeal to extremes. You are aware that if you take all these things into account DRG only out damages MNK 1/5 Times.
rDPS wasn't implemented at all into FFlogs until after Heavenward, Analysis had to be done by a log by log basis./
If it was implemented it wasn't accessible with meta-data to the public. but that's a completely different discussion for a different topic.
The 99.999999% Hierarchy right now is
Black Mage 20,147.43
Samurai 19,969.46
Summoner 19,506.29
Red Mage 19,365.43
Ninja 19,343.72
Dragoon 19,288.13
Monk 19,226.25
Dancer 18,844.79
Machinist 18,119.03
Bard 18,061.80
It doesn't justify that MNK beats it but barely loses to DRG in these extremes as these extremes cannot be replicated every pull.
When you factor in MIN and MAX you end up with this.
Black Mage 17,546.47 20,147.43
Samurai 17,493.59 19,969.46
Summoner 17,377.20 19,506.29
Ninja 17,168.77 19,343.72
Red Mage 17,029.49 19,365.43
Monk 16,996.98 19,226.25
Dragoon 16,871.81 19,288.13
Machinist 16,813.84 18,119.03
Bard 16,505.45 18,061.80
Dancer 16,022.85 18,844.79
HARDLY close to your claim of " Dragoon is now the third highest parsing job at max, behind only the two overpowered jobs, SAM and BLM"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Not to mention you agree with that, but all those claims just fell apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Over and over again your defense is inappropriate generalization instead of concrete proof, I Don't have any titles to defend i just want people to know the truth. -
09-21-2020, 07:00 PMShurrikhanYou're the one who pulled that single metric initially. (I presume because all other metrics contradicted your statement.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I then argued that the Max percentile indicates nothing more than the latest luckiest/most padded run, and directed you to the tiers beneath max where your statement that DRG barely even outperformed Dancer was patently false and more recently to the fact that, sure enough, this week's Max tier has DRG within the top three jobs.
Why would I factor in min when specifically discussing max?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I'd already factored in lower tiers when last discussing that your conclusion only held water at Max rank.
My mentioning Max here was merely proof that Max varies wildly and was therefore unreliable, just as I mentioned in my first post.
Is the second image supposed to be my "doctored" image, or your proof to the contrary? They're identical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I posted the 2-week period for each fight to show why the 2nd fight so screws over DRG's overall performance, and the 1-Day overall as an image of what I mentioned earlier.
_____________________________________________________________________________
In response to your edit:
You're mistaking consistency for hypocrisy. You made an argument. I showed you one way it didn't work in the previous post (you had argued by an extreme, conflicted across all other tiers) and mentioned a second way it would fall apart (even that highest tier will shift within a week or two). This time, I showed a third flaw in your argument (performance across a raid tier is a sum of its bosses, and a job may perform fine across the majority while still underperforming on the whole due to the one problematic fight) and gave proof of the former post's second (DRG had already gone from 4th worst to 3rd best melee).
The image function does not appear to be working, so I'll merely leave the links as to the given Max I mentioned by way of showing these things change constantly, lest you next call me a liar just because I didn't write out numbers that may or may not have actually ever been on fflogs:
http://prntscr.com/ul1235 (3rd best job overall; 2nd best melee)
https://ibb.co/WzGPZRd (2nd best melee)
http://prntscr.com/ul0yb3 (DRG's problem child fight.)
http://prntscr.com/ul0yyc (2nd best melee)
http://prntscr.com/ul0zio (Ahead of Monk)
Values not among the highest levels will change far less noticeably, so I'll still expect that anyone can look them up the other tiers for themselves.
Is the second image supposed to be my "doctored" image, or your proof to the contrary? They're identical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I posted the 2-week period for each fight to show why the 2nd fight so screws over DRG's overall performance, and the 1-Day overall as an image of what I mentioned earlier.
Somehow the "liar!" bit took even less time than I thought. Every picture includes its frames of reference. None are doctored. -
09-21-2020, 07:10 PMRenkeiNo I didnt, i told you RDPS wasn't comparable in heavenward because we have no meta-data. All the Metrics didn't contradict my statement what are you even on about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Don't make me laugh you doctored that image here let me prove it!
https://postimg.cc/K3gKZnFK
https://i.postimg.cc/K3gKZnFK/FALSE.png
https://postimg.cc/Wq22ygzL
https://i.postimg.cc/Wq22ygzL/FALSE2.png
Your LINK http://prntscr.com/ul0l97
Your LINK https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png
1.http://prntscr.com/ul0l97
1.https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png
MY LINKS
1. https://i.postimg.cc/8cZLmH0b/FALSE.png
2. https://i.postimg.cc/gjhnnKPJ/FALSE2.png
Are we even using the same Logs at this point????????
https://i.postimg.cc/DfCTXGzf/obviouslyajoke.png
That last one was a joke i made up btw.
Look i don't doubt there's problems with the designs of the current fights and their accessibility for DRG and MNK because there really is. but you are barking up the wrong tree here. It'd be more productive to figure out how to get these jobs up to flexibility and snuff with the current leading jobs that don't even start to sweat in all the current end-game fights./
The problem is you argue for Max and everyone in that percentile bounce from 97 to max depending on pure sheer luck.
You seem to forget SAM and BLM are peak every-fight, Shouldn't we be on about how SAM and BLM are to Flexible and DRG and MNK lack the same flexibility?
When did IFRIT and Garuda become every fight?????????? DRG only gets third place in that one fight. https://image.prntscr.com/image/7OQT...TjFZyuKnnQ.png
*Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
My Metrics didn't contradict themselves. Look at all your metrics in your earlier posting that is DRG rank 1 and 2 every fight? NO so what are you on about? that's a 1 day Metric TALK about cherry picking.
Most of your defense is just ad hominem, The honest fact is DRG gets ahead of MNK at 95%+ And i advocate for minor changes, I think both jobs need changes to be up to snuff Sorry it's the truth when you look at all the metrics BLM and SAM are way to flexible. -
09-21-2020, 07:39 PMShurrikhanYou're cropping my link to remove the part that clearly says "Ramuh"... why, exactly? They're literally just "All Bosses - 1 Day", "Ramuh - 2 weeks", "Ifrit & Garuda - 2 weeks", "Idol - 2 weeks", and "Shiva - 2 weeks", respectively, each at Max as stated. Why try to pretend that the bars from one belong to another?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I've not. I understand you've made your strawman very vivid for yourself, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
By all means, then suggest as much that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
Raw potency buffs, "parrying buffs", or making it less "heavi[ly] reliant on tank positioning", however, are not the answer; outside of its worst fight per tier, Dragoon is doing fine, so raw potency is unnecessary, while your own suggestions would do virtually nothing for where DRG actually suffers.
Might I suggest evaluating the Eyes mechanic instead? -
09-21-2020, 08:07 PMRenkeihttps://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
http://prntscr.com/ul0l97
Your Example Of Cherry Picking, now accusing me of cropping when these are both the same link inspect the image source yourself.
I Didn't crop any of your links those were the links you posted, I saved the links you posted in an edit that you posted and now your accusing me of cropping them.
Me Stating "The problem is you argue for Max and everyone in that percentile bounce from 97 to max depending on pure sheer luck." is not anywhere close to a Straw-man It's a fact at high level of play. Because 10,000 more people play DRG then MNK it makes it highly more likely that DRG will slightly Edge out MNK Statiically because the Sample Size is bigger. How is that a Straw-man when its actual factual math?
I've Suggested Multiple Balance changes over the past entire Expansion Cycle Never have i suggested any raw potency changes to the job.
The only thing that actually needs to be changed is for DRG and MNK to have their Stacks not on a timer so they aren't LOST. most jobs permanently store their job resources except these two jobs. (and DRGS 10 second Wheeling And Fang and Claw needs to be 15 second to match all other procs in the game being 15 seconds.)
Remove Antaman, and Remove Blood of the dragon. or extend the duration of the effects to match Ninjas Huton. PROBLEM SOLVED. The Problem is DRG's Geir and Nastrod rely on this timer instead of having charges for some strange reason. either reverse the flow of the aura in question, or make it so the aura has to be reapplied or remove the timer, there's plenty of ways to improve these designs it's not a problem with just MONK this problem exists with the lower half of jobs in the game
DRG's eye mechanic behaves just like Charges DO. -
09-21-2020, 09:06 PMShurrikhanLook at the link on my page. Look at the link on yours. Mine clearly includes additional height, labeling exactly where that parse came from, rather than obscuring anything. Yours purposely leaves this out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
(Emphasis my own.) Therein lies your strawman. I've never argued for Max. I've spent three posts now arguing why you shouldn't have done so in the first place.Quote:
The problem is you argue for Max
Spare me the righteous indignation when you weren't previously willing to post those actual suggestions here. I'm not about to search your entire post history for them. Thus far we've had only (1) you implying that DRG has been historically and remains currently shorted in terms of raw power, defensive or offensive, and (2) your first post:Quote:
I've Suggested Multiple Balance changes over the past entire Expansion Cycle Never have i suggested any raw potency changes to the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
Let's stick to DRG, as this is a DRG thread.Quote:
The only thing that actually needs to be changed is for DRG and MNK to have their Stacks not on a timer so they aren't LOST.
BotD cannot be lost except to extremely long cutscenes. Its cooldown is notably shorter than its duration. This isn't a problem even for the most casual of DRGs.
While removing BotD or reducing it to a trait would be a QoL improvement, it wouldn't change DRG's performance in any way.
Removing BotD would give no reason to allow you multiple charges of Geirskogul or Nastrond.Quote:
The Problem is DRG's Geir and Nastrod rely on this timer instead of having charges for some strange reason.
Having multiple charges of Geirskogul would be, in effect, a potency buff, as it'd allow an additional Geirskogul or Nastrond under each Lance Charge. It's true that it'd allow them far more flexibility, but it'd also offer them more damage under burst windows and thereby increase their maximum damage potential, which isn't particularly short as is. Some certain iteration of this may be an excellent idea, but I'd need to know more of what you intend.
I ask largely because I also have to worry you don't actually mean "charges"... See below.
They quite clearly do not; charges are multiples of an initial cooldown, allowing for 2 or 3 of the same ability to be cast in succession and increasing how much time an ability can store accordingly. Perhaps you're thinking of "progress steps" or the like?Quote:
DRG's eye mechanic behaves just like Charges DO.
_____________________________________________________
tl;dr: Putting aside for now what would necessarily offer increased ppm (as DRG is far enough behind, on average, to allow for some increases there, but that's a numbers issue for after we've nailed down intended gameplay changes), it seems that you want increased flexibility (as to be less punishable by unfortunate fight timings) and more intuitive design, possibly with a less punishing job mechanic? Am I understanding that correctly? -
09-21-2020, 09:23 PMShurrikhan
Let's compile the positively received suggestions thus far:
- By whatever means, extend F&C and WT's duration of availability to that of normal combo steps.
- By whatever means, remove the ability to lose Eyes over long transitions (e.g. Eden Prime cutscene).
- Further reduce certain animation locks.
- Give some way to extend Disembowel to AoE. (Note that this would then oblige that 2+GCDs are used on non-AoEs even in AoE scenarios, DRG AoE may already be balanced around not having Disembowel, and that if Disembowel were worth maintaining in that situation then buttonflow would now be less diverse.)
- Consolidate Mirage Dive to take the place of Jump while Jump is on cooldown, as it has no reason to be a separate key from Jump.
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09-21-2020, 09:32 PMKalinOrthos
The only buff to Dragoon I want
is to finally give Dragoon a Freya glamour. Please. -
09-21-2020, 10:34 PMShurrikhan
Here are some, admittedly more ambitious, changes I'd like to see (spitball for now):
- Jump now allows for a degree of movement during its animation, allowing you to change where you land on the enemy, within the bounds of its hitbox, while moving in, and allowing you to rapidly change your return position when returning (landing further forward from, left of, right of, or back from your starting position). While in transit, your hitbox is shrunk to <an infinitesimally small size>.
- All dives likewise allow you to change where you land on the enemy, within the bounds of its hitbox, while moving in, and allow, during the time you spend stuck in place briefly, to influence in which direction and how far thereafter you will "spring" back from the target, making them feel more fluid and responsive.
- Blood of the Dragon is now a trait. The timer component of Blood of the Dragon itself has been removed, while the timing of Life of the Dragon is now more flexible. Blood of the Dragon now houses up to 5 charges, each generated by Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive, Mirage Dive, Fang and Claw, Wheeling Thrust, Sonic Thrust, or Coerthan Tempest. Gierskogul no longer has a cooldown, but instead consumes 2 of these charges at a time to generate 10 seconds of Life of the Dragon each. There are no "Eyes", only Life of the Dragon duration, which can be raised as high as 40 seconds long. The button previously given to Blood of the Dragon is now called Dragonsoul, which causes you to enter Life of the Dragon and for its timer to start ticking down. You want to get off as many Nastronds (improved Geirskoguls) as possible during that duration, and thus should time it towards the end of combos and around your Dives, but the flexible duration should better allow you to rush or hold it.
- "Sharpened Fang and Claw" and "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" traits are now just called "Fang and Claw" and "Wheeling Thrust" respectively. Both of these "Dragon" weaponskills no longer interrupt your combos, thus allowing you to string together, say, TT-Db-CT-TT-VT-WT-F&C-FT-F&C-WT. This allows for more timing control over DRG's burstier GCDs.
- Life Surge gets a second charge, or its cooldown is further reduced (not so much as to be used on an earlier Full Thrust in constant rotation, but enough to help in cases of desync).
- Piercing Talon buffed to 20 meters' range and 250 potency. At level 54, Dragoon gains the Dragonkiller trait, causing Piercing Talon to upgrade to Dragonkiller while any normal combo is in progress. Dragonkiller deals 380 potency, with the same range.
All this is obviously subject to tuning and simulation.
I specifically did not grant a Disembowel extension buff to AoE because I prefer having to meaningfully weave in single-target damage and effects, especially now that Gierskogul is already tied to GCDs*, and AoE already thereby holds a higher Geirskogul generation efficiency (1 per 3 GCDs, up from 1 per 5). (* Yes, that will have huge tuning consequences. Alternatively the rate may be slowed, e.g. to 3 charges per Geirskogul.)
I'd prefer a bit more gameplay refinement, but this direction (not necessarily this exact implementation) seems all that is necessary to reduce DRG's melee-downtime costs and timing issues to what is reasonable. -
09-22-2020, 06:52 AMRenkeiClick on your Link, Click View Image Location : Both of them are the same image from the same LINK i used your direct image link instead of the Page hosted image Link because the forums was having issues. I honestly didn't crop your image.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Please View Source on your Link to the image and you'll discover the link i posted to be the direct image link.
You Argued for Max, your premise was that DRG out damaging MNK on MAX damage was the reason why DRG was 3rd place in all fights, which wasn't true as proven by the Data i posted.
You say that while noting that i never previously posted a suggestion and then post the first suggestion i posted in the thread, that's a contradiction don't you think? If your claim of me not posting suggestions was true then how come you could find a suggestion of mine in the thread?
Have you been playing end game as DRG this expansion Cycle almost every fight has a long enough transition that a DRG has no choice but to lose their BotD even with perfect execution of wheeling or fang before hand until a 2 seconds.
Any Cutscene or transition that takes more then 58 seconds will force you to lose BotD and all eye stacks.
I don't think you are aware of the fact that right now, you store an extra eye on purpose delaying your Life Gauge in order to achieve 1 extra Nastrond under Lance Charge. With a Charge system since Geir and Nastrond share timers and would share timers with a charge system would result in the same Nastrod usage as 2 charges would be expended firing the Geirskogul to activate Life to Fire the Nastrod, Leaving you with 1 Charge, and 29 Seconds, Resulting a 5 second Penalty, Resulting in 24 seconds, and 3 Nastrods per Eye. Hardly additional considering you want to be able to use 6 Nastronds if possible. It would result in no over-all change in potency the only damage increase would be from not losing Eye Stacks doing Fight-Cutscenes that exceed 58 seconds.
Finally now you agree with the notion that this should be a DRG Related thread, Earlier it was being hijacked by "MNK CHANGES ONLY".
They absolutely do, You activate LoTD with 2 Eyes and Geir, then fire your first Nastrod, The Timer Goes, 30 Geir+Nastrond, wait 10 seconds, Nastrod, Wait 10 seconds Nastrod, If you changed Nastrod to a Charge it wouldn't make any difference because the duration of LoTD wouldn't be changing it would only be BOTD changing, It would just Minor Flexibility for Nastrods as the max charge of Nastrod should not Exceed 3, but should always start at 1. The Charge system was implemented for this kind of stuff it seems like.
TLDR : When you activate LOTD, Gain 1 Nastrod Charge, and 1 Nastrod Charge for every 10 seconds afterwards, Results in 3 Nastrods, LOTD 30 Second Duration is FINE, problem is BOTD Eye Dropping due to the long mid-fight cut-scenes. This allows you to fire double Back to back if STORED Nastrods if you had to before the duration ended, in case you are outside the 9 second grace period per Nastrod.
Yes i am not against increased flexibility i don't want them to increase the ceiling. the fight timings i speak of are long fight transitions where DRG has no choice sometimes but to lose BotD even at high levels of play due to the long fight cut-scenes.
The Job Mechanic is only punishing during cut-scene transitions there's no active managing at all for it outside of some 28+ second transitions. It's not rewarding and only punishing because it's so easy to keep up and maintain that fight's being designed with long-transitional cut-scenes make it litterally impossible to keep it up because they all exceed 30 seconds and DRG is unable to HOLD aura or activate it mid cut-scene causing dramatic Damage loss in fights where "Fetter, Can't Act" Debuffs are Active Which No matter your skill level on DRG you cannot prevent the loss of the Stacks.
Thank you i appreciate the Progress we now seem to be making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
1. Yes, F&C WT Duration to that of normal Combo Steps is perfectly reasonable.
2. Removing the ability to lose Eyes over long transitions yes.
3. The main offenders of this are Elusive jump and Star-Diver.
4. Considering the Limited range of Linear AOE this is reasonable.
5. Problem with this is there is parts in the 6 Nastrond Rotation that requires you to store a Mirage dive on purpose making it impossible to see your jump timer if consolidated But this is something i felt like should of been since Mirage Dives Inception, when the 4 eye window was in effect this wasn't an issue though. THIS ISSUE COULD BE FIXED WITH CHARGE NASTROND. [See above]
Generally I'd like to see the jobs design improved, If not now for Future Reference (and Expansions) and Discuss possible changes, The Developers really do listen to suggestions as the do have trouble coming up with ideas sometimes (Bard for Example).
I'd like to also see Better Disengage options and combo flexibility in the future as well. -
09-22-2020, 10:07 AMShurrikhanExcept they're clearly not the same image. It has most of the image seen from clicking on my link, but is then suspiciously missing the whole top bar included in each of my posts. Should I instead call it seemingly subjected to "the removal of unwanted outer areas from a photographic or illustrated image"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
Quote:
You Argued for Max, your premise was that DRG out damaging MNK on MAX damage was the reason why DRG was 3rd place in all fights, which wasn't true as proven by the Data i posted.
- That wasn't my premise.
- DRG's power is listed in the parenthetical after every image.
Quote:
You say that while noting that i never previously posted a suggestion and then post the first suggestion i posted in the thread, that's a contradiction don't you think?
"Over the past expansion cycle" is not here; I clarified this because you seem to have thought that the weight of your unseen past arguments were somehow contributing to this thread. I then preceded to post every word of actual suggestions you've posted here, the limits of your actual contribution to this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
You honestly want to argue that "this expansion cycle almost every fight" prevents control of character for "more than 58 (consecutive) seconds"?Quote:
Have you been playing end game as DRG this expansion Cycle almost every fight has a long enough transition that a DRG has no choice but to lose their BotD even with perfect execution of wheeling or fang before hand until a 2 seconds.
Any Cutscene or transition that takes more then 58 seconds will force you to lose BotD and all eye stacks.
I am not aware of almost every fight denying me control of character for more than 58 consecutive seconds, but I am quite used to delaying LotD on my DRG character, yes.Quote:
I don't think you are aware of the fact that right now, you store an extra eye on purpose delaying your Life Gauge in order to achieve 1 extra Nastrond under Lance Charge.
Geirskogul being a given a further charge would not necessitate that, with a charge system, it would share timers with Nastrond. Such would, after all, force Geirskogul to a 10-second recharge time or Nastrond to a 30-second recharge timer.Quote:
With a Charge system since Geir and Nastrond share timers and would share timers with a charge system would result in the same Nastrod usage as 2 charges would be expended firing the Geirskogul to activate Life to Fire the Nastrod, Leaving you with 1 Charge, and 29 Seconds, Resulting a 5 second Penalty, Resulting in 24 seconds, and 3 Nastrods per Eye.
What is this "5 second penalty" you are referring to?
Do you mean "Eye" (progress step) or "Life of the Dragon" (the 30-second Geirskogul-upgrading phase activated by Gierskogul after generating the requisite number of "Eyes")?
You stepped in poop, giving us 2 posts of diversion, and then insisted on rolling around in said poop to generate a further 2 pages of waste. Move on.Quote:
Finally now you agree with the notion that this should be a DRG Related thread, Earlier it was being hijacked by "MNK CHANGES ONLY".
_______________________________________________________________________________________
It looks like there may be a lot of good that could come out of your charge idea, but it's very difficult to understand at present. Could you elaborate more clearly? -
09-22-2020, 03:54 PMRenkeiThey are the same exact image.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I Don't need to argue it because we both know that In Savage Content has unpreventable breaks in the Final Fight.
my Unseen past arguments? does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important? I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance.
Geirskogul wouldn't receive a further charge, and it already shares a timer with Nastrond, if you've done a 6 Nastrond Weave you'd be aware of this.
The Penalty you recieve from having Nastrod half off CD converts directly into Geirskoguls timer.
You are willing to use anything as a straw-man or a mote and bailey that's why you defended the MNK argument? You don't take your own behavior into account. what a double standard.
2 Pages of Waste? All you did was grab a bunch of suggestions that you claim were unseen suggested over the past 2 years and then take credit for them all on your own.
Guess you have something to wipe with after what you laid earlier.
I'll argue that lot's of fights have 58 second transitions where you cannot control your character because it's true. Play the game. E1S, E4S, E8S, Ruby Weapon, Hades, Warrior Light. All have these transitions, Not to mention both alliance raids have transitions like this too because of the long walk times in-between areas. That's 6 out 11 Fights, Making it so that most fights in this expansion factually having a transition like this.
lets Move pass all the for-mentioned Bull.
When you use Geirskogul it already shares a CD with Nastrod, You can see this if you mess up using it on purpose [or accident], effectively you can make it so Activating LIFE of the Dragon (2 Eyes > Geirskogul) Grants 1 CHARGE of Nastrond and behaves the same as other charge abilities, but only enters into charge state when Life of the dragon is activated.
The Effect would be described as this in the Tooltip.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Life of the Dragon TRAIT.
Allows for the strengthening of the gaze of the first brood upon using Mirage Dive while under the effect of Blood of the Dragon. When the gaze is its strongest (2 units), Geirskogul will grant you the Life of the Dragon status in place of Blood of the Dragon. While under the effect of Life of the Dragon, Geirskogul will change to Nastrond Resetting to 1 Charge. Life of the Dragon will revert to Blood of the Dragon when duration expires.
Nastrond 10 Seconds 3 Charge Max.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Example of Charges : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Charge +1 > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Charge +1. > Nastrond > Wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon.
Effectively, entering Life of the Dragon will reset Nastrond Charge to 1 no matter what because Geirskogul by itself cannot accumulate charges. This effectively would allow you to miss an ENTIRE window of Nastronds, at the cost of 1 Nastrond, Without the same 3 second Grace Period the Current System Has.
Example of Current State : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds > Nastrond > wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon.
Example Of Advantages of Charge : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds = Charge +1> Wait 10 seconds = Charge +1 > Nastrond > Nastrond > wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon > 1 second to Geirskogul.
Example Of Existing Shared Timer with Charge : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds = Charge +1> Wait 10 seconds = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 3 seconds > Nastrond > wait 6 seconds > Blood of the Dragon > 4 second to Geirskogul.
There would be no difference in potency besides being able to align burst windows with more flexibility.
The reason why Geirskogul Resets is because you wait 9 seconds, If you use Nastrod late or miss it somehow it resets at a higher duration depending on the cooldown percentage of Nastrond.
90% of 10 seconds is 1 second, 80% 2, 70% 3....ETC. This is actually a thing in game. Test it if you haven't noticed. -
09-22-2020, 04:40 PMShurrikhanYour words were "almost every fight" in "this expansion Cycle". Two out of all does not make "almost every".Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
It makes them part of the discussion. Admittedly, that would make it more, contextually, "important" than if... not part of the discussion.Quote:
does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important?
That sounds an awful lot like "I'm not crazy; the world is!" in this particular case.Quote:
I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance.
Nastrond... isn't... a GCD skill... though?Quote:
Geirskogul wouldn't receive a further charge, and it already shares a timer with Nastrond, if you've done a 6 Nastrond Weave you'd be aware of this.
The Penalty you recieve from having Nastrod half off GCD converts directly into Geirskoguls timer.
Can any other DRG mains make sense of this part (above)?
I defended the argument that due research at the time of the events and at the time of my post showed to be factual. Yes, I tend to treat the factual and afactual differently, henceQuote:
You are willing to use anything as a straw-man or a mote and bailey that's why you defended the MNK argument? You don't take your own behavior into account. what a double standard.
I think you're fully aware I'm referring to your starting a piss-battle with the anyone who knows anything, historically, about Monks.Quote:
2 Pages of Waste? All you did was grab a bunch of suggestions that you claim were unseen suggested over the past 2 years and then take credit for them all on your own.
I never claimed those suggestions were unseen. They are all quite clearly from this thread. That is, after all, how normal discussion works. It doesn't make use of things one has variously said in other threads, unseen to those one is discussing the current topic with.
It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?
Edit: I see you've made a massive edit again. I'll read it and edit accordingly when I get a chance. -
09-22-2020, 05:18 PMRenkeiQuote:
I defended the argument that due research at the time of the events and at the time of my post showed to be factual. Yes, I tend to treat the factual and afactual differently, hence
I think you're fully aware I'm referring to your starting a piss-battle with the anyone who knows anything, historically, about Monks.
I never claimed those suggestions were unseen. They are all quite clearly from this thread. That is, after all, how normal discussion works. It doesn't make use of things one has variously said in other threads, unseen to those one is discussing the current topic with.
It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?
Edit: I see you've made a massive edit again. I'll read it and edit accordingly when I get a chance.
I mean OGCD 1 letter difference i think anyone that speaks English can understand that basic mess up , its 6 out of 11 fights.
Referring to the data that was so badly cherry-picked by you that you had to accuse me of doctoring out the 1 day Data, Which you still seem to believe was doctored, the Real Doctored image was the obvious image with MNK doing 999999 Damage, and DRG doing 231337 Damage, Yet you don't bring that into the discussion. I used a completely Different Up-loader to disprove your theory, and backed up the link you posted, only the final image i posted was doctored that's why i made it absolutely obvious, you stated DRG was only BEATEN BY SAM/BLM in every fight. Which was proven not true.
I Didn't even start the piss battle, Look through the posts Historically all i did was suggest and try to contribute to this thread only to defend myself against the onslaught of DRG OP MNK GIMP by no other then you. what a surprise! I don't see how you appeal to authority makes any sense because none ever do.
They are from this thread you used that point as a Mote and Bailey as mentioned earlier by me you attempt to be constructive to hide the fact that you only participate in the forums for ad hominem.
You were against those positions in earlier posts because you believed DRG was to over powered.
i am not going to point out every single node.
Lets analyze these statements.
You say that with conviction like you speak for the world and for me, This is a talking point in Linguistical studies i suggest you look into it. It's the primary topic of Walter Lippmann's Public Opinion, Great piece of Literary work.Quote:
That sounds an awful lot like "I'm not crazy; the world is!" in this particular case.
Text book Gas-lighting good-job!
If there's 10 people in a Forest, and only 2 people saw a Owl, but the other 8's opinion is that the 2 didn't see the owl, Does it make that Owl appearing Factual? popular opinion doesn't make facts.
Obviously does that even need to be mentioned? but should i care whether or not you consider it seen or unseen? No.Quote:
does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important?
It makes them part of the discussion. Admittedly, that would make it more, contextually, "important" than if... not part of the discussion.
It's important to note i said "my Unseen past arguments? does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important? I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance. "
Context is important.
Because what i said was the truth? How is that a Piss-Battle? I Historically put out more accurate Monk Data in this Thread then you have! You accused me of doctoring the image you posted when i posted the direct-link instead, the only image i doctored was the one that was obviously doctored with the ridiculous damage numbers to prevent you from accusing me of doctoring your original image because I've seen you use that as a defense before.Quote:
I think you're fully aware I'm referring to your starting a piss-battle with the anyone who knows anything, historically, about Monks.
your honestly Telling me this link https://prnt.sc/ul0l97 Posted by you, and your Link Directly Linked https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png Doctored? Nope.
Your Post 03:00 AM
https://prnt.sc/ul0l97
My Post 03:10 AM
https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png
Your Edit 03:27 AM.
https://prnt.sc/ul1235
Argumentum ad populum, Man you are full of the tricks aren't you? I knew you were full of it the moment i helped get your link working and then you accused me of cropping it.Quote:
It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?
-
09-22-2020, 06:19 PMShurrikhan
@Renkai
(I apologize for taking up so much of the thread thus far; I should have thought to use hide blocks earlier.)
In full:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
You are again referring to... yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
I'm sorry if you're approaching this like I'm some end-of-story boss who doesn't even know you, but I've never accused anyone of doctoring an image. I see my link, which you accused me of doctoring, and your alleged copy of mine, and that the latter is smaller than the other. That's is all. I don't know you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
The context (what you've quoted of me immediately above):Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
This has nothing to do with argumentum ad populum; that is to argue based on what is popular. I am not arguing anything. I have explained my actions and have asked you to please write your suggestions out for anyone else in this thread, as per the purpose of this thread, since despite my best attempts to understand what it is you want, I am clearly failing.Quote:
It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?
-
09-22-2020, 06:50 PMRenkeiQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I am constantly Referring to this.
Your Post 03:00 AM
https://prnt.sc/ul0l97
My Post 03:10 AM
https://postimg.cc/Wq22ygzL
Your Edit 03:27 AM.
https://prnt.sc/ul1235
It still counts as argumentum ad populum when you try appeal to the masses.
That's why we should push pass this Ad hominem, Which you don't need to know a person personally to employ. I would just rather not. So let's get to the bottom of suggestions instead of the later.
I Wrote My Suggestion In Detail In an earlier post, I'd like to clarify information about it but i don't have a clue what part of it you are confused about you'd have to ask me in detail about it in order for me to elaborate.
I've been reading through the DRG Balance thread on the Japanese Forums, It's nice to see people claiming support to others then a constant back and forth attacks at peoples personal character. So please ask me and I'll elaborate.
Here is the Window I mentioned Previously regarding the burst window for DRG. Notice the Purposely Used Early Geirskogul to delay Life? this is done on purpose to make up for the removal of 3 Eyes and spine-shatter-eye.
Burst Function works like this. Geir>Jump>Dive.
https://i.postimg.cc/g00yHFN1/Parse.png
This would allow the Last Nastrond of 1st burst 6 Nastrond, and the first one of the 2nd 6 Nastrond 2 second flexibility. That's why it's not an issue just some timing flexibility.
Alternatively, Preventing Removal of Eyes on BoTD Loss will only put DRG up to the current standard of keeping your resourcing because we got long in battle cut-scenes. Which MNK Also suffers from. Like the not having 7 Chakra problem. -
09-22-2020, 07:25 PMShurrikhan
@Renkai's edited explanation in regards to adding a Charge to Geirskogul/Nastrond:
(Sorry I didn't edit earlier to save the trouble of further explanation! I had to be away from keyboard for a bit.
Again, I'm fully aware of the delay interactions. My only question was what you meant by the added Charge and what you wanted from it, which your previous post already made clear, I think.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
Wouldn't this be accomplished as easily by "Refresh Geirskogul upon exiting LotD", or "No longer cause Nastrond to inflict an ICD onto Geirskogul"?
In either case, now that understand what you mean by charges, and --hopefully-- what you want from them, by all means, it seems a great idea. You could practically pass it off as an almost purely QoL change.
This is called a single-direction (or "unidirectional") ICD. (This means an "internal cooldown", as opposed to the "('nominal', 'base', or 'ability') cooldown", i.e. one lower than the actual/ability/base CD that is inflicted by some larger system, shared ID, or other skill or mechanic which does not explicitly state that it'd trigger its CD.)
Geirskogul and Nastrond do not "share CDs" exactly, because they are of different lengths (and they therefore cannot share charges, as far as I'm aware), but they do share... let's call them... spell-slot IDs. That sharing is the reason you may notice certain CDs being on cooldown when you swap off another job on which you used some other CDs. Note also that in all other cases in which these are shared, they are shared in flat duration, never percentile. The most notorious example of this has been Hallowed Ground and Lustrate sharing a slot, thus placing Lustrate on the remainder of its 7-minute cooldown after swapping.
Vestigially, because Nastrond is an upgrade of Gierskogul, it inflicts its cooldown onto the latter. Or, at least that seems the most likely reason. The Geirskogul->Nastrond direction inflicts nothing, either because of how the inheritance is encoded or because activating Life of the Dragon instantly refreshes the slot. There are two possible reasons why : either (1) something about either of the two required that they be in the same slot, or (2) the system could not otherwise track the cooldown of a skill that has been (for the duration of LotD) replaced, which at the time would have made a 21-second LotD duration superior to a 30-second as you'd return to Geirskogul with it automatically refreshed (since its cooldown progress data wasn't retained). Who knows. The latter is no longer an issue, though I wouldn't put it past them to leave something vestigial as an oversight.
Here you'd basically just be correcting that oversight, which is great. I personally slightly enjoy the tight demands of a 6N weave, but I also enjoyed the high-SkS TK rotation, which, due to its needing to be timed to the quarter-second, was disgustingly niche. So I realize I'm not the majority opinion in this regard. [SIZE="1"(For a more DRG-ish context, I also loved the hell out of the 2.33 GCD dungeoning build back in HW for its extra Geirskoguls on one of my two DRGs, mostly for its tightness and seeming capacity for ingenuity.)[/SIZE]
This seems a good change on the whole. Perhaps you could polish up the wording to be more easily read and post it where it's not likely to be distracted from by what you've written to me specifically?
Edit: In regards to Monk, we already know it's being revamped and have little idea what to expect -- personally, I expect it will be gutted to solely what is "functional", rather than its actual issues being addressed sensibly, thus shafting the veterans who enjoyed most of what was fundamental to and intentional in the job's design -- so it's little worth worrying how DRG will pair up against it. Let's just deal with DRG's issues for now. As I've already said before, I'm a fan of removing BotD as a timer since it seems to only act as bloat and awkward "DRGs get screwed in fights X, Y, and Z" mechanic.
Removing the Nos->Geir ICD and BotD-as-a-timer would already do a fair bit to smooth out the job. Is there anything else you had in mind, though? -
09-22-2020, 08:24 PMRenkeiQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Yeah Sorta. they still share the same Slot, Simply Changing Nastrond to a Charge ability sharing that slot wouldn't make the charge timer triggered until you entered LoTD. as Geirskogul exiting "ICD" is Based on Nastrods last used "ICD".It could Still Inflict ICD onto Geirskogul though but it couldn't give it multiple charges because Geirskogul can only have a Max of 1 uses as it's not a charge ability. But if time was remaining on the last charge of Nastrond before conversion it would still apply to the shared ICD based on the remaining time on the final used charge and place it on Geirskogul. For Charge Values higher then the Value of Geirskogul uses such as 2 or 3 it would discard it when applying it to Geirskogul Never exceeding a value of 1.
but it will also require "Refresh Nastrond Upon Entering LotD" Which in Effect Only Gives Nastrond a single Charge stack and starts the charging timer 10 seconds per stack up to 2 Stacks since you start with 1 would equal the same 6N weave.
Assuming that the Value of a charged ability increases based on uses.
It is targeted at correcting that Over-sight Yes. it has the potential to add flexibility to gearing the job as well as flexibility of bursting in different compositions.
It could pass as a QoL Change, and it would also add a flexible timing window needed to add new mechanics in the future. such as a new state or ability requiring 2 Eyes while In Life of the Dragon.
Without effecting damage output through potency changes.
2.32-33 depending on your ping is still a thing and is the only way to get max value out of Life Surge. unfortunately it doesn't get along at all with the rest of DRG anymore as it doesn't help generate resources like in heavensward.
Reply to Edit : I am actually a bit afraid of what they could be changing, I hope it doesn't get gutted though because Monks have suffered enough with dealing with the redundancy in design that and the chunkiness that should have been smoothed out to begin with.
The Least they can do is let you keep Eye Stacks regardless if BoTD falls off, Kinda like Enochain generates Polyglot on BLM but keeps them even if it falls off. This also applies above.
It is clunky bloat, it made more sense when it had a function in heavensward. Which would kinda still work with the modern system. but since Geirskogul no longer costs time it makes no sense.
The only other things I've had in mind are future Expansion Abilities, I Would like an ability to exist to expend the remaining time to force end LoTD. (Lancet) And i would like to see An Introduction of a separate second eye stack for Star-diver. As well as a state requiring lining up both eyes at full unlock to enter Soul of the Dragon with the successful execution of Lancet. But i cannot come up with anything besides adding a more powerful Star-diver like jump,Free Wheeling/Fang Use, or even another LASER when entering that state. This Soul of the Dragon state would end up landing outside of the 6n burst at 2 eyes, and within the second 6n window burst if needing 4 stacks. -
09-22-2020, 10:03 PMShurrikhanUltimately, though we just want two things, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renkei
- To be able to delay/bank Nastrond casts, and
- To be able to squish the delay between the 3rd Nastrond (LotD#1) and the following Geirskogul (opening LotD#2).
If we want to go further than that, we might as well address the Eyes mechanic itself --- namely that, while execution can be banked, you can't get LotD lengths other than 30 seconds, making it harder to time specifically to the more awkward of fights.
As much as I hate slow jobs, I hate desync even more, depending on how badly it screws me over. Though, it's that last bit that hurts my soul in this case. I don't want to go back to how downtime-punishing HW was, but if that could be separated from the idea of attack speed affecting resource generation, I'd take that revised version in a heartbeat (so long as the higher-SkS version truly were competitive)...Quote:
2.32-33 depending on your ping is still a thing and is the only way to get max value out of Life Surge. unfortunately it doesn't get along at all with the rest of DRG anymore as it doesn't help generate resources like in heavensward.
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09-23-2020, 10:23 AMRenkeiQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
1. Yeah that's exactly it, Just the ability to delay and bank/store Nastrond casts.
2. Yeah it's strange that Nastrond Is NOT Auto-casted when activating Lotd with Geirskogul it would save time and prevent the Desync that Jump and Geirskogul suffer from towards the end of fights. You can really feel this in the burst window as you have to purposely delay it to throw out Mirage Dive to prevent clipping. Even though you can use any other dive with it fine after the LoTD transition.
What's interesting is it can be implemented since Enochain has a similar effect with generation of Poly stacks but it's considered charges but stored as an UI element. It'd still work with ability charge though as it's treated as such.
3. Eye's shouldn't be loss when BoTD is loss and/or BoTD should be Traited.
another future solution would be an ability that can force you out of LoTD.The issue with this is even with Star-diver being 30 seconds it'll cause an issue where you'd lose a use completely. Kind of like how you have to purposely stall LoTD during 6N so you can execute 2 Star-divers.
Star-diver should either be the ability to you use to END LoTD as it's cool-down length exceeds the duration of LoTD It would have to be adjusted to 20 seconds. This would dramatically decrease the time you are forced holding Mirage Dives. There's always that timing where you have 2 eyes in LoTD. and you cannot use Geirskogul to enter it even after you expended all 3 lasers.
4. A Solution for the Ranged Attack problem with Dragoon could be just to increase the RANGE (Length not width.) of the Linear AOE Combat, The ultimate problem with it though is it not properly generating disembowel value.
This could be an easy fix for the range attack solution as they are preexisting.
I'd like to be faster too but Desync is a really real problem for OGCD/CD Heavy Jobs which could be fixed by treating all abilities as Weaponskills, but it also has the potential to break the game because the value of faster burst windows eventually eats the value of higher crit etc, but critical has been defacto best for a long time so it's not anything to wild. It's a design over-sight that i hope will get addressed.
I remember those times it made me wonder why the resource generation wasn't stored into a gauge to begin with (why they didn't make TP gained from attacking instead of losing it to spend on more powerful abilities is beyond me). Expending Buff Timer of BoTD for Geirskogul's was a great idea though. but there has to be a better solution to that, with Dragoon's Linearity it caused weird interactions. especially taking into account Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize delaying your only 2 abilities to generate said gauge, a system like that would probably work out better now as long as the TIMING cap was increased and the resource generation was decreased due to the nature of tighter generation we now with the back to back WT/FC.
Effectively the design ended up losing content which it filled with WT/FC. Not to mention Losing Power Surge (one of the coolest looking abilities) and gaining dragon-sight, and the recent Gutting of Blood for Blood which leads me to another idea.
5. Dragon-Sight Removal or Adjustment, Current system OGCD Design of Dragoon Accounts for the existence of HT in it's rotation, Forcing a ally target ability to be weaved with a normal ability: With the recent adjustments to Battle-Litany, and removal of Heavy Thrust and Changing of Blood for Blood to Lance Charge.
Dragon-Sight should be removed and it's bonuses should be consumed by Existing Abilities here is some data I've Collected. Dragon Sight DPS =1,538.1 , Lance Charge DPS=2,021.3, Life Surge DPS = 911.0 ,Battle Litany =1,062.9 With this math you could Effectively Move 5% damage over to Lance charge (Lance Charge 20%) and Distribute the Rest into Litany (Litany 15%). Increasing Lance Charge DPS TO : 2,526.25, and Battle Litany to 15% results in 1,593, Totally 4,119.25 RDPS, Versus 4,622.3 of the current system, Additionally, The remaining output would probably be eaten up by the Increase in DPS in the 3min 2,774.0dps window both litany and Lance Charge Line up Linearly which buffs. Which equals Exactly 4,771 DPS. Not Exactly Game Breaking or anything for the huge QoL. This Change would result in an estimated 148.7 RDPS Gain and a damage loss in low man content
1. the ability to delay and bank/store Nastrond casts through Adding charge feature to Nastrond.
2. Nastrond Auto-casted when activating Life of the Dragon with Geirskogul.
3."Eye's" shouldn't be loss when blood of the dragon is loss and/or blood of the dragon should be Traited.
4. A Solution for the Ranged Attack problem with Dragoon could be just to increase the RANGE (Length not width.) of the Linear AOE Combat(Doom Spike > Sonic Thrust > Coerthan Torment) , The ultimate problem with it though is it not generating disembowel value.
This could be an easy fix for the range attack solution as they are preexisting. It also fixes the extending issue of Dragon Gauge.
5. Dragon-Sight Removal or Adjustment, Current system OGCD Design of Dragoon Accounts for the existence of HT in it's rotation, Forcing a ally target ability to be weaved with a normal ability: With the recent adjustments to Battle-Litany, and removal of Heavy Thrust and Changing of Blood for Blood to Lance Charge.
Dragon-Sight should be removed and it's bonuses should be consumed by Existing Abilities here is some data I've Collected. Dragon Sight DPS =1,538.1 , Lance Charge DPS=2,021.3, Life Surge DPS = 911.0 ,Battle Litany =1,062.9 With this math you could Effectively Move 5% damage over to Lance charge (Lance Charge 20%) and Distribute the Rest into Litany (Litany 15%). Increasing Lance Charge DPS TO : 2,526.25, and Battle Litany to 15% results in 1,593, Totally 4,119.25 RDPS, Versus 4,622.3 of the current system, Additionally, The remaining output would probably be eaten up by the Increase in DPS in the 3min 2,774.0dps window both litany and Lance Charge Line up Linearly which buffs. Which equals Exactly 4,771 DPS. Not Exactly Game Breaking or anything for the huge QoL. This Change would result in an estimated 148.7 RDPS Gain and a damage loss in low man content -
09-23-2020, 01:26 PMShurrikhan
My post-sub forum privileges will soon run out, so I'll just (re)post my final 'wants' summary. I understand that some of it may be excessive. This is a bit spitball. I'm just assuming I'll be kicked off any minute, so /shrug.
"Reasonable" :- F&C and WT "combo" availability timers extended to 15 seconds.
- BotD removed as a timer. There's just no need for it. It does nothing of any gameplay value now that its timer does not involve actionable resource.
- Blood of the Dragon's button has been replaced by Dragonsoul, which causes you to enter Life of the Dragon. It is given at level 70 and has a 15-second cooldown.
- Mirage Dive is again castable from Spineshatter Dive. However, Jump and Spineshatter each have their own activation; they will not replace the others "Mirage Dive Ready". Their buffs icons are now shown as a sort of Mirage-Dive-themed version of Jump and Spineshatter Dive, respectively.
- Mirage Dive replaces Jump and Spineshatter Dive while each is on CD. A semi-transparent radial dial will appear over Mirage Dive, indicating the Mirage Dive Ready buff remaining more handily than the status bar alone would. As Jump will always be ready 15, and Spineshatter 45, further seconds thereafter, this is sufficient for tracking each in the interim.
- You can now hold up to 3 Eyes. LotD, too, no longer acts as a timer; instead, it simply converts Geirskogul to Nastrond for as many casts as you have Eyes to consume. You cannot exit LotD except by having consumed all Eyes. Stardiver no longer requires that you be in LotD; it is merely activated for 30 seconds at potency based on how many Eyes were available upon that activation. It too makes use of the above semi-transparent radial timer and its remaining activation duration will appear on your status bar.
- Nastrond has a charge capacity of 2. This allows you even further banking control.
- Doom Spike, Sonic Thrust, and Coerthan Tempest range extended to 13 yalms.
- Battle Litany range extended to 20 yalms.
- Piercing Talon range extended to 20 yalms. Potency increased to 250. Upgrades to the 380*-potency Dragonkiller whenever a combo is in progress. (* Exact value TBD.)
- Dragon Sight streamlined. With no target selected, it will now automatically the highest DPS-role Enmity within range -- highest Enmity if none.
- Reduced animation locks for certain skills.
- Mid-animation movement control added for Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive, and Stardiver.
My Ideal Dragoon (Crazy-talk):- General change: ground-targeting skills can now be queued. Upon GCD refresh or end of the prior animation lock, they will be cast automatically. Yes, in some cases this can faintly extend their maximum range (by up to 500 ms' worth of movement).
- General change: Everyone uses MP to some degree. Lucid Dreaming, as bloat, is gone and replaced but MP has only become more integral as a result. MP again varies in value, rather than holding a fixed 10000 MP. Moreover, its maximum can now be increased by certain job effects. Dragoon, for instance makes use of this due to its Jump skills consuming a % of total MP for further damage. Most jobs have something similar, thus making MP an eventual power concern.
- Open combos. Any first step of a combo can combo into any second step, and any second step into a third, and any third into Dragon Skills. They now just use four buttons collectively (1 for each combo series and then another for WT/F&C). Impulse Drive is back.
- [Tentative] Disembowel is again target-specific (its buff showing only to the Dragoon who applied it), and adds both flat and percentile damage, and its duration is reduced by a second with each weaponskill dealt against the target. This makes its use a bit more frequent, varied, and integral, now that it's no longer coupled to Chaos Thrust specifically.
- Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust effects now vary with the combo sequence that built them (including each other, after acquiring Lance Mastery). AoEs, for instance, will add an increasing linear AoE component to each strike of Fang & Claw or a self-centered AoE component to Wheeling Thrust. Doom-Disembowel-Chaos-Wheeling is now a conventional AoE starter, as it would spread.
- Jump, Spineshatter Dive, and Dragonfire Dive simplified. Jump literally now just sends you up into the air, causing you to evade most attacks. While "mid-jump", your weaponskills are replaced with Jump variants, costing varying amounts of %MP with a certain minimum MP cost. These each carry certain effects which can stack and synergize with those of normal rotation... or just get you where you need to go. Btw, Dragonfire Dive is, naturally, the jump variant of Chaos Thrust.
- Blood of the Dragon, now a mere trait, merely causes relative potency dealt to generate MP and extend your maximum MP, thus causing your Jump frequency and/or power to scale more iconically with uptime. Jump skills acquired after level 50 generally cost more that 100% of your base MP, thus requiring significant time spent in Blood of the Dragon. A later trait will improve the MP generation efficiency. This allows DRG to be very flexibly bursty.
- Geirskogul acts as an AoE magic/"Dragon" Disembowel, synergizing well with the bonus damage from BotD on your jump skills, while also increasing your Attack Speed by 7.5% for 12 seconds. This stacks, with stacks falling off individually. In short, it makes DRG even more flexibly bursty.
- Life of the Dragon, now likewise a trait, causes a portion of MP spent to be separately stored for later burst use, essentially dipping into that resource twice for free. You burst, blow a bunch of MP, burst again later, blow a bunch of shit, and by then you have enough stored to burst your unique aspects again for free or augment the third mini-burst to devastating effect. This, too, makes DRG even more flexibly bursty.
- Doom Spike, Sonic Thrust, and Coerthan Tempest no longer require targets, though they will snap their direction to one if the camera is not locked. Doom Spike's its damage-checking target detection has been slightly delayed but it now accelerates movement in the direction of attack during its animation if any enemies are detected within 15 yards before it, allowing the Dragoon the option of effectively sprinting through the enemies in front of them.
- Piercing Talon is the only GCD use of Jump that allows the DRG to stay airborne.
- [Tentative]The multi-strikes of certain skills (basically all but True Thrust and Full Thrust) now have synergy with Disembowel's flat potency-per-strike increase.
- Dragon Sight briefly duplicates your BotD mechanic in part and allows you to transfer its value to a target, regenerating their MP with your relative potency, while they in turn regenerate yours, based on proximity. In gameplay terms, the further you are from them, the more you keep for yourself and the less dependent you are on them, while the closer you are, assuming equal contribution, the greater the effect between the two of you. This allows a Dragoon to potentially aid burst healing, a tank's active mitigation, a Bard's AoE support or song flexibility, or a coDPS's burst, all via a simple, intuitive, granular resource.
- If TP were ever returned, the AoE skills would be given utility and initial-target potency enough to be worth using --sparingly-- in single-target combat.
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09-26-2020, 06:39 AMRenkei
Thanks for the input was a good read. Lets keep the discourse up to this standard so we can get as many suggestions as we can It'll be great for the game and the community in the long run.
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09-26-2020, 11:40 PMMartaDemireux
The way the lore is being built definitely seems like they're moving in the direction to give DRG a familiar that functions like DRK's shadow. Would love this, really. Have it pop out and do a breath attack after every combo finisher or during our jump animations as long as BotD is active or something.
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09-28-2020, 12:21 PMKahnom
All I want from Goon is increasing movement speed during red BotD.
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09-29-2020, 12:00 AMJirah
You want a buff? how about give them their AOE faster? spamming doom spike for 15+ levels is boring. Have Battle Litany and sonic thrust change postilions