Your reaction if SE adds in a Passive Ability to Mobs...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The Aurum Vale is a great example of people not really wanting challenging dungeons.

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Agreed... so long as SE continues too cater to the /AFK speed run crowd, I can't see dungeons ever becoming fun.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Why not inflict all players with a really strong Heavy status, like the one from the last boss on Hullbreaker HM, that'll stop those pesky speed runners

/sarcasm

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The Thousand Maws of Totorak (Hard) should have that green slime everywhere, you say?

I'd be fine with the individual mobs being stronger or having skills that would end up synergizing with each other(s'), which might make speedrunning require a bit more consideration, but I want nothing to do with a mechanic that serves only as an arbitrary limiter/penalty like your "Unity" buff here would.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

That's kinda the point of saying 'git gud'. It's a dismissive statement.

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That's the mindset of someone who won't improve. git gud isn't dismissive it's just abundantly obvious to anyone who wants to improve (barring a sort of learning disability) You just have to see what works and what doesn't. Experiment. What are people expecting of you that you can't seem to provide? And why is it that you can't provide? Just self examine and you'll quite easily see whats stopping you from being a super sick mass pull play with 7000 AOE DPS and full ilvl 1000 gear.

People who hear "git gud" and shut down seem to tend to have a lower skill ceiling in my experience when all it takes is just a simple "Did X work" and "Did doing Y provide better results than X"

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Originally Posted by Daranion

git gud isn't dismissive

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'Git gud' is the very definition of a dismissive comment in being snide and lacking consideration. Not that I disagree with it; a lot of this information is easy to figure out via tooltips and beyond that a quick google search for some basic tips is better than expecting randoms to teach you your class. But let's not pretend that telling someone to git gud isn't meant to be dismissive/demeaning.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

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Learning disability or otherwise, what's stopping people being like "Oh, I've noticed this, could you perhaps try that instead and see how you find it?" - be constructive about it. "git gud" is dismissive to me as it dooesn't give any constructive ways on how to "git gud". For example telling a black mage that doesn't understand the ice/fire thing "I've noticed you're only using Blizzard 3, could you perhaps try using Fire 3 until your mana runs out, then Blizzard 3 until it's back up, and rinse and repeat", that gives them an indication of at least part of what they need to do to "git gud"

Why tank switch stance? Why healers DPS? Why DPS need better rotation?

Kill faster is the ultimate goal for everyone.
You pull more when it makes you kill faster.

OP why not you just suggest remove all AOE abilities? I am sure then no one will pull more as it will slow down everything. ^^;

The problem with this is that dungeons aren't designed to be challenging, they're designed to be done repeatedly, over and over, as we grind for gear.
This could work in something like Raids or PotD, where it's suppose to be challenging.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Why tank switch stance? Why healers DPS? Why DPS need better rotation?

Kill faster is the ultimate goal for everyone.
You pull more when it makes you kill faster.

OP why not you just suggest remove all AOE abilities? I am sure then no one will pull more as it will slow down everything. ^^;

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I've seen big pulls go down fast even with 2 Dragoons. The core issue is the monsters are extremely weak. Even if the pulls were small, we'd burn them very quickly.

You know what would be hot? If SE gave mobs true instincts if a mob is of a job/class. For example, say you're in The Vault, and the enemies are PLD and MNK x2. If one of the MNK mobs are being hit too much by a dps on your team, then the PLD mob will "Cover" him or "Shield Bash" the attacker.

Lets say 1 mob does 100% of its dmg. then you have 3 mobs, thats 300% dmg.
Then a group of 6 mobs, thats 600% dmg.
You dont actually need a stacking buff. Just make the mobs actually hit hard enough to not need to grab extra mobs.

While some people think speed runs require more skill. But honestly, they require the same amount, except rotations are more simple and boring.
Sometimes i want to speed through, to get it over, and sometimes i enjoy the more complex rotations of smaller packs.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

git gud isn't dismissive

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On a side note, more than half the time peopel say that, they ran out of counter arguments for something they are completely wrong about. (I dont mean subjectively, I mean, they suggest something impossible, and if u explain why it cant be done, they say "git gud" and cant actually do it themselves.)
If what is being said cant even be explained, then it's just a "Plugs ears, and says I cant hear you" argument.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Agreed... so long as SE continues too cater to the /AFK speed run crowd, I can't see dungeons ever becoming fun.

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The afk dungeon runners and the speed runners are two opposite camps. Nobody wants to pull all the mobs in the dungeon and then tab out.

I disagree. Most jobs literally mash one button for optimum AoE, and that can be easily macrod. Hell, I use a macro that spams Spread shot so I can browse the forums when mass pull happens, only pausing between salvos to use quick reload or hot shot. With Bishop out, that's literally all I need to do for maximum efficiency.

So basically, make it so there's no point in having AoE skills. That's what I get out of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I disagree. Most jobs literally mash one button for optimum AoE, and that can be easily macrod. Hell, I use a macro that spams Spread shot so I can browse the forums when mass pull happens, only pausing between salvos to use quick reload or hot shot. With Bishop out, that's literally all I need to do for maximum efficiency.

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So you're part of the problem... >w>

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I imagine the general consensus would be, 'But muh mindless zerg rush speed runs!' People are kinda addicted to the things by this point. Course, I personally wouldn't complain, I hate mindless 'pull everything and AoE it down' cheese strats and would actually like mobs to remain a relevant threat even at Max ilvl but... then SE would have to tune the content tighter.

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Unless they allowed the Mobs to scale up in line with the avg ilvl of the party, even allowing an additional mechanic or special attack after a certain threshold to maintain the challenge (or perhaps that should be, establish the challenge?). Combined with a semi-decent lvl/ilvl sync, this would help maintain the balance designed into dungeons. Of course not everyone will buy into this.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The Aurum Vale is a great example of people not really wanting challenging dungeons. **snip** Haunted Manor was actually more challenging than a lot of current dungeons, and you don't fight anything.

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Which is truly a crying shame.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

You know what would be hot? If SE gave mobs true instincts if a mob is of a job/class. For example, say you're in The Vault, and the enemies are PLD and MNK x2. If one of the MNK mobs are being hit too much by a dps on your team, then the PLD mob will "Cover" him or "Shield Bash" the attacker.

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That requires AI to be programmed to the Mobs. I would love it, I am not sure most would like moderately smart enmies.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The Aurum Vale is a great example of people not really wanting challenging dungeons. It can't be speed ran unless running it unsynced, in which case you give up the awesome exp the dungeon gives.

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I think there are way too many factors involved to blame the general dislike of Aurum Vale on it being challenging.

Reasons why I dislike Aurum Vale include:

• Dungeon Aesthetics: I strongly dislike the toxic atmosphere with yellow liquids, dark green walls etc.
• Mob Aesthetics: I really dislike the look of all the mobs in there
• Synced to level 49: Oh, you just got your awesome level 50 skills, well have fun not having access to it! (so close yet so far)
• Synced ilvl: No sense of 'progression' as you get stronger. Nice new gear? This will still take the same amount of time.
• Time: This dungeon seems to take forever, comparatively to other dungeons
• Rewards: The exp is kinda meh, you can level faster in Northern/Southern Thanalan, and the gear is pointless as it's scaled to 49 and everything at 50 rapidly jumps up in power.

I enjoy the 'challenge', even though I don't find it that challenging. I do like that there are patrolling mobs and you need to be careful with your pulls.

The main problem here was already stated. Dungeons are meant to be an in and out affair. From the devs own mouth if a run goes past 20 minutes either your party has some explaining to do or the devs really messed up. "Expert" dungeons as they function now just aren't the place to add these mechanics in. Stop thinking "How do I slow this run down" and instead start thinking like a game dev. "How do I make this more addiction/fun. The end goal is still make you play longer, but slower just means you'll lose players. Addicting, now that's the key

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Originally Posted by Daranion

The main problem here was already stated. Dungeons are meant to be an in and out affair.

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It's really too bad that the Dev's have taken this mentality. Dungeons were once the main reason that I played MMO's. Now it's just something I do 4x per week to tick "capping stones" off my checklist.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I disagree. Most jobs literally mash one button for optimum AoE, and that can be easily macrod. Hell, I use a macro that spams Spread shot so I can browse the forums when mass pull happens, only pausing between salvos to use quick reload or hot shot. With Bishop out, that's literally all I need to do for maximum efficiency.

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I play a summoner, I definitely have more than one button to smash. Big pulls are often the place I like the most, not only do I know that I have to be good there to get them all down fast, so the healer does not run out of MP or the tank dies and I have lots of abilities that work the best the more monster I can hit with it. I kinda wonder if you are truly doing your optimum DPS with that macro.

@Claire_Pendragon: I do believe that speed runs needs more skills. I had tanks that wanted to speed run but had no idea how to use their buffs..I never healed so much in my life..if the same tank will only pull 2 or 3 monsters he will probably barely loose HP. If I want to DPS as a healer and someone pulls big, I need way better skill to handle both DPS and heal without anyone dying. If I am in a dungeon with my summoner main I will hit way more buttons if we pull big and thus more monster than pulling small or even just one monster..As a monk I also have to not only be in the right position for one monster but I need to aim right to hit the other monsters with my aoe. As a tank its way easier to hold the aggro of one monster than to hold it over a lot. Lets not forget that some people dont want to do speed runs because they fear that they cant do it. But why would that be the case if its needs less skill?

I am for a more challenging experience in dungeons. But I am not really sure if the OPs solution would be a "challenge" or just annoying. How about less trash mobs but make those that are left dangerous? You can even give those some nice passive buffs. Or make the bosses harder. Nothing that will mean 1 mistake = wipe, but most bosses are so obvious right now.

So right now, people can either pull one group at a time or 2-3 groups at a time before hitting a door. People have choices on how they want to run the dungeon, and adding that is going to make one of those options incredibly difficult so people are indirectly forced to pull one group at a time.

Gross.

I thought on this topic a bit more and I was reminded of what they did in WoW's Cataclysm expansion so I decided to expand on my previous post in this topic. In the expansion prior to that (Wrath of the Lich King), a moderately geared tank could pull an entire dungeon in roughly 2-3 trash pulls and by the end of it with the right gear I could pull an entire dungeon's worth of trash in 1-2 pulls and be in absolutely no danger of dying whatsoever. 8-10 minute dungeon runs were quite entertaining. In Cataclysm they dialed it back and made dungeons difficult again. They made individual enemies more dangerous, upped their damage, added priority targets that needed to be controlled and/or killed immediately, and spaced the pulls in such a way where in a few places you had to be careful since 2 groups of enemies meant death.

However, as you geared up through the raid content you sort of "graduated" out of needing to use crowd control and could just pump raw damage and aoe in to a group and even pull 2-3 groups at a time. I would be perfectly fine with the Cataclysm model, make the new dungeons legitimately challenging and dangerous but over time gearing up would make it easier to the point that once you did have that gear, you wouldn't need to be as careful. It's an interesting feeling when you can say "wow, I remember when this stuff would destroy me if I wasn't careful. I've really gotten stronger gearing up over time!"

Uhm, what about making actual interesting encounters and trash mobs, rather than add a pointless passive to make them stronger? Things like, an enemy that summons more adds and has to be stopped/stunned, an Aoe that sticks and tank must move out, or an invulnerable mob that you can only attack after you kill minions?

I dunno, just giving my two cents...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I disagree. Most jobs literally mash one button for optimum AoE, and that can be easily macrod. Hell, I use a macro that spams Spread shot so I can browse the forums when mass pull happens, only pausing between salvos to use quick reload or hot shot. With Bishop out, that's literally all I need to do for maximum efficiency.

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You have a warped, and poor, understanding about what "efficient" means.

What you posted isn't efficient. Its lazy and "good enough".

While this thread has devolved into yet another large pulls vs small pulls debate, to address the initial poster, if SE were to introduce such a mechanic, I would be both confused and irritated.

Confused, because a passive boost of that kind would essentially make every jobs' aoe arsenal a complete waste - there'd never be a good time to use it. Small pulls would become the norm, and it's rarely worthwhile from a damage and TP usage standpoint to use aoes on a group of three mobs or less. So, if we can't pull big, and are never fighting more than a couple mobs at once, why have aoe abilities at all?

I'd be irritated, both because dungeons would take a little bit longer, and also because they would be incredibly boring. Large pulls are the only way a tank can get any enjoyment after the tenth or so time running the same dungeon over and over again; the only time they feel even modestly challenged.

Passive abilities on enemies would be horrible. Maybe 1 dungeon, could have some trash mobs with auras as a gimmick that we'd work with, but blanketing all dungeons mobs with a speed pull destroyer just wouldn't be fun, and it would take what tiny challenge dungeon mobs do present (as groups of 6-12) and make it irrelevant. If you actually look at Gubal HM and Natalan, these were obviously designed with speed running in mind by the devs. Large rocks to put vuln on any target they land on for Natalan, and the boogeys at the start of Gubal literally CHALLENGING you to keep up with them. I'd say the devs are well aware of how the community feels about speedruns and the current experts are evidence of their approval.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Uhm, what about making actual interesting encounters and trash mobs.........like, an enemy that summons more adds and has to be stopped/stunned, an Aoe that sticks and tank must move out, or an invulnerable mob that you can only attack after you kill minions?

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These are all great ideas, and I know 2 of them have already been used (summons in AK normal, and Invuln mobs in Lost City with the white magic crystals). SE seems to try at least putting new gimmicks in every now and then, but they have to be especially careful with excessive recycling too :) Although my favorite gimmick is the dungeon-that-isn't-a-tunnel. Haven't seen that one in a while QQ

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Uhm, what about making actual interesting encounters and trash mobs, rather than add a pointless passive to make them stronger? Things like, an enemy that summons more adds and has to be stopped/stunned, an Aoe that sticks and tank must move out, or an invulnerable mob that you can only attack after you kill minions?

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Heavily reminded for the first boss in Pharos Sirius. Summons adds that give you a stacking buff that will make you explode that causes a vulnerability up debuff. Boss summons AoEs on the floor that cover half of the arena that also give that stacking buff. Continues to spawn same adds, increasing in number up to a point (I think; maybe it kept increasing by one or two) and eventually adding in an AoE attack from the boss itself that covered half of the arena.

Then I'm also reminded of Saint Mocianne's Arboretum and many adds had some mechanics that needed to be stunned or dealt with immediately. Too bad they were placed next to a boss's entrance that went down a slope and locked them out.

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

I think you and Brannigan have something decent between the two of you. Definitely would need to reduce the amount of mobs down the line to the boss.

I'm good with having it slow and steady if needed. If I have to push harder as a job then it's exciting to me. Then again, I guess you'd upset those who want to get in and done just because they're already playing too much, burnt out and complain that things are too easy while refusing to want something too hard...Steps is a good reason as to why we can't have nice things. Or the Bee's..I miss them.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Heavily reminded for the first boss in Pharos Sirius...

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That was fun, and it still kills people time to time. Some would rather die multiple times and burn it than deal with the adds. Though that's part because of how the game has raised us.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...Make the dungeons themselves less dull, and you might not have any issue in the first place, especially if it requires fewer runs (no additional minutes) spent in dungeons per week...

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I think that would be a fair compromise, by adding in things that makes a run more difficult for a set of users and in return, reducing the average dungeon time. Of course the reward could be more tomes to cap weekly. Though I think that it's easy enough as it is now, but others will strongly disagree. Still there has to be something from both ends..give and take. The bigger downside now though is making the content that others don't find dull and repetitive. Sooner or later it is going to get there, with all the dungeons and content floating around to make things 100% randomized, might be more negative than positive. There's really not a single answer out there that would make each dungeon brand spanking new each time, but instead of randomization through one single dungeon, you can get your fill through having to do a random dungeon with small randomized encounters.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

...Oddly enough, I don't really recall the speedrunners calling for the nerfs so much as the people that simply couldn't handle the mechanics. Mostly, the speedrunners complain about there being gates and forced stops or them having to deal with people that simply don't want to even try to pick up the pace a little more.

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From what I remember it was both points what you said, there was also a lack of understanding from both ends. For example, most of the new dungeons you'd have to slow down a tad with until the iLV made you into Super Kami Dende. After a bit it was business as usual. Though people got so use to doing the big pulls, if someone didn't have the gear for it..it didn't matter..they just ran. Causing a bad time. For Pharos, when they'd pull enough mobs and slowly kill..that banish..hurt. Now, I don't know if I even see it. On the other hand, the ones who didn't pick up the pace wouldn't try to meet in the middle. Maybe in the end it's just the people that need to be patched...

I'm not a speed runner, I don't play enough to where I go "If I don't cap out tomes this week I'm going to fight a panda..with my car." and get evil. There's a point where you can go "I could do my thing and let this run go on longer or help out with the speed run. Or kill them...kill them all." in which case the minion on my characters shoulder that looks like a deformed version of Chairry from pee-wees playhouse with the voice of Harvey Fierstein makes the decisions.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

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As long as the rewards are proportionate, I doubt speedrunners would complain about added difficulty or duration to dungeons. The main issue for them, as far as I can tell, is that they'd like to spend the least time possible in boring content, especially when its arbitrarily necessitated (by tome gear) for "real" content. Make the dungeons themselves less dull, and you might not have any issue in the first place, especially if it requires fewer runs (no additional minutes) spent in dungeons per week.

Why do people assume that because people go about things efficiently, that they must only want brain-dead content for anything outside of the most recent savage raid?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

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Yeah, pretty much this. Any time mobs get mechanics, they get figured out how to get cheesed or enough complaining is done that they were done away with to some degree. Oddly enough, I don't really recall the speedrunners calling for the nerfs so much as the people that simply couldn't handle the mechanics. Mostly, the speedrunners complain about there being gates and forced stops or them having to deal with people that simply don't want to even try to pick up the pace a little more. Generally speaking, if you're speedrunning, you know your class well enough to get large pulls done and can handle movement and mechanics that both of those instances demanded....

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

. Why do people assume that because people go about things efficiently, that they must only want brain-dead content for anything outside of the most recent savage raid?

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The majority of the replies in this thread are about a desire to keep the dungeons as braindead easy as they are now, rather than trying to shake up the formula. Not hard to see.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

The majority of the replies in this thread are about a desire to keep the dungeons as braindead easy as they are now, rather than trying to shake up the formula. Not hard to see.

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Actually, I think there needs to be a clarification added to this idea. One that popped up in my mind thanks to your statement.

I don't mind dungeons that will appear in roulette being braindead [read: mostly devoid of mobs having abilities for the sake of making large pulls increasingly difficult] for the sake of efficiency. I would want to see more mob mechanics in places of Palace of the Dead, which is a dungeon and does shake up the formula with what it has to offer. I wouldn't mind see such mechanics in places like the Diadem. Basically, for dungeons that will be used to farm large amounts of tomestones, for items like relic and their quests, I see no reason to make it increasingly frustrating.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Basically, for dungeons that will be used to farm large amounts of tomestones, for items like relic and their quests, I see no reason to make it increasingly frustrating.

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See, this I still don't understand. SE is free to adjust the rewards however they please. If a dungeon is made more complicated such that it is expected to take 30% longer, they can adjust the rewords by 30% in turn. The only two things that are actually 'set in stone' are that there will be a larger slot of time required to run it, and that there is a chance that the added complexity will give a different, be that larger or smaller, bonus to people who play efficiently than current speedrunning tactics alone did in previous, more brain-dead dungeons. At worst, that portion increases, and people are more incentivized to find good groups to farm with -- which they'd do anyways any time they're actually 'farming' tomes.

This... this is STILL going?! o_0
I honestly thought it would be over and done with back around page 3 or 4. I'm shocked to see people still discussing it. It was meant to be a simple question to response to with some interesting insight about such a feature. Well I'm glad to read your posts nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I thought on this topic a bit more and I was reminded of what they did in WoW's Cataclysm expansion so I decided to expand on my previous post in this topic. In the expansion prior to that (Wrath of the Lich King), a moderately geared tank could pull an entire dungeon in roughly 2-3 trash pulls and by the end of it with the right gear I could pull an entire dungeon's worth of trash in 1-2 pulls and be in absolutely no danger of dying whatsoever. 8-10 minute dungeon runs were quite entertaining. In Cataclysm they dialed it back and made dungeons difficult again. They made individual enemies more dangerous, upped their damage, added priority targets that needed to be controlled and/or killed immediately, and spaced the pulls in such a way where in a few places you had to be careful since 2 groups of enemies meant death.

However, as you geared up through the raid content you sort of "graduated" out of needing to use crowd control and could just pump raw damage and aoe in to a group and even pull 2-3 groups at a time. I would be perfectly fine with the Cataclysm model, make the new dungeons legitimately challenging and dangerous but over time gearing up would make it easier to the point that once you did have that gear, you wouldn't need to be as careful. It's an interesting feeling when you can say "wow, I remember when this stuff would destroy me if I wasn't careful. I've really gotten stronger gearing up over time!"

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Ooh! I like this system... I wouldn't mind FFXIV adopting this a bit.

I kinda wish the level and item level sync was changed up a bit... allow us to use all of our skills, but doing low-level dungeons with the sync on reduces their damage output. I feel like re-learning or forcing to hold back on older dungeons with the level sync feature... it's fine at first, but locking out my skills and rotation gets increasingly annoying over time.

Everyone else has gotten some interesting ideas as well. Though honestly I wasn't expecting such novelties thrown in here. I'm pleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

See, this I still don't understand. SE is free to adjust the rewards however they please. If a dungeon is made more complicated such that it is expected to take 30% longer, they can adjust the rewords by 30% in turn. The only two things that are actually 'set in stone' are that there will be a larger slot of time required to run it, and that there is a chance that the added complexity will give a different, be that larger or smaller, bonus to people who play efficiently than current speedrunning tactics alone did in previous, more brain-dead dungeons. At worst, that portion increases, and people are more incentivized to find good groups to farm with -- which they'd do anyways any time they're actually 'farming' tomes.

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They could, but SE likes gating relic behind crafting, large tomestone farming and additional items that may, or may not, require even more tomestone farming. When you're forced to farm something like 24,000 tomestones, you stop caring about anything other than efficiency and speed. (I think that is the tomestone requirement for umbrite on relic, assuming you did not receive any bonuses for treating the sand. Think my math was right....) With no bonuses, that's something like 160 ARF runs (which I believe is the most efficient dungeon to run for tomestones). At 30% reward increase with dealing with mechanics, that doesn't sound too appealing.... that's still something like 120 runs that may double the time it previously took (assuming said dungeon had the same reward amount as ARF with a 30% increase). As it has been pointed out, there are people that simply want to take their time, others don't do things efficiently, others completely ignore mechanics; throwing in something like that doesn't mean it will only take 30% more time.

So, you put in dungeons that are more challenging on a basis besides, 'but muh Aoes,' and suddenly you could very well see the general skill level of the player base start to rise. Keeping things braindead as is will only encourage people to stagnate.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I kinda wonder if you are truly doing your optimum DPS with that macro.

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The alternative means I fall asleep with one hand on my controller mashing the one AoE. Considering that for AoE, all I need to do is use X(Hot Shot), []( Reload), Tri(Quick Reload) and O (Spread Shot), I would still have to have another screen open to actually stay awake. And of all my jobs, MCH has the 'most complex' AoE rotation to be aware of.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Neither of which were very popular. Pharos had to get nerfed because people whined about having to deal with mechanics, and Arboretum, while beautiful, was also largely hated. As much as I'd adore having fun actually dangerous dungeons, I know it'll never happen with the speedrun crowd calling the shots.

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Pharos was nerfed because it was harder than the other dungeons in the roulette and people were purposely not unlocking Pharos in order to keep it out of the roulette. Not to mention the rewards in Pharos were identical to the other dungeons, so people always chose the easier path.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So, you put in dungeons that are more challenging on a basis besides, 'but muh Aoes,' and suddenly you could very well see the general skill level of the player base start to rise. Keeping things braindead as is will only encourage people to stagnate.

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People will stagnate because they want to. There have been plenty of people across various threads that have said if the game forces me to get better, I will seek another game. In the end, you'd be more or less hurting only those that want efficiency.