Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Go back and read about the changes to HP/MP regen and come back in here when you're done. Or, ask nicely and I'll explain it in greater detail.

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That sort of arrogant, condescending tone isn't helping your credibility, Neptune. I urge you to read my post again, perhaps you missed the ninja edit. I attempted to explain it to you.

Just pop on Featherfoot/Featherfoot II and call it a day. I mean, really.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

I'm still not 100% sure about this myself, although I really wouldn't mind either way. It is possible to be engaged in combat without ever performing an action against an enemy (someone in your party attacks a mob). In this case, the mob is claimed and you are engaged in combat, but there is no enmity meter under its name. In other words, you're engaged in combat but not incurring enmity.

I'm assuming that once that enmity meter appears you will be "incurring enmity" as they put it. But that's just the way I took it. I have no problem waiting 2 days to see for myself.

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Based on previous use, there are really two ways to interpret "incurring enmity:"

1. You perform an action that increases your enmity value.
2. You have a target's attention. (blinking red)

Accounting for a situation as irrelevant as standing and doing absolutely nothing from when your party engages a target onward is silly.

Regardless, one can at least appreciate after reading the patch notes that it is indeed probable that HP/MP will regenerate between spells. That alone casts significant doubt on the argument presented by the OP.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Regardless, one can at least appreciate after reading the patch notes that it is indeed probable that HP/MP will regenerate between spells.

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Yea, definitely probable, not gonna argue with that. Really don't care for another omg end of the world thread fueled by speculation anyways lol :D

Patch is 2 days away, I can wait.

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[dev1151] The following changes have been made to passive mode HP and MP recovery:

-Players will not automatically recover HP and MP when incurring enmity.
-HP and MP will automatically recover only while the player is stationary, regardless of whether or not he/she is engaged in battle. The amount of HP and MP recovered will increase based on the amount of time a player remains stationary.
The recovery amount will reset under the following conditions:
The player is attacked (means you incurred enmity)
The player moves or performs an action (means you casted a spell)

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Incurring enmity clearly means blinking red here.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I think the common misunderstanding here is that "incurring enmity" is not the same as "having incurred enmity." Essentially, your enmity does not have to be zero for you to be able to regen. That would be in direct contradiction to the areas I have bolded.[/COLOR]

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I did miss your ninja edit. That is quite a selective reading from the notes. Thanks for explaining yourself. It sounded like you hadn't read over that part.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Based on previous use, there are really two ways to interpret "incurring enmity:"

1. You perform an action that increases your enmity value.
2. You have a target's attention. (blinking red)

Accounting for a situation as irrelevant as standing and doing absolutely nothing from when your party engages a target onward is silly.

Regardless, one can at least appreciate after reading the patch notes that it is indeed probable that HP/MP will regenerate between spells. That alone casts significant doubt on the argument presented by the OP.

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Indeed probable? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. Here's the thing though: this is math. Your party engages an enemy. Do you have enmity before you take action? It has to do with programming. Either the dev team assigns your character enmity or not. Let's say they don't until you take action. You take action. You now have enmity. If you recall, they changed enmity to accumulate - instead of disappear after a period of time like it did previously. So in other words, because of that one action you will have enmity for the duration of the encounter. This is math, stored in some code somewhere. I think it's quite liberal to read into this some kind of scenario where your enmity meter must be -what, going up all the time? every 5 seconds? every 2.5 seconds? before you are "clear" to regen. Do you see how complicated your assumption is?

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Incurring enmity clearly means blinking red here.

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Not so fast. It doesn't refer to the color of your enmity meter. If the dev team set it up this way, your party could be engaged and you could have no enmity due to not being attacked or taking action.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Did you notice in your playing that of the 4-5 mages in a group most were healing.. 1 person? To solve the problem of DPS not getting invited, they could have not raised MP costs. The result of that would have been 1 or 2 healers instead of 4 to 5.

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I've not run Darkhold with more than 3 healers, and the third is only for speed. I can hardly fathom needing a 4th (let alone 5th??) mage to tank heal. It is clear that whatever is going on these groups are doing something seriously, seriously wrong, and should not be succeeding at all. That's why this is an encounter design issue. You should not be able to do everything wrong and still win; that's poor design. The solution is to prevent people from winning this way by removing the "stack a ton of healing" loophole in the encounter design. You suggest doing exactly the opposite by making it vastly more convenient for them to win this way, while at the same time trivializing this and future content for everyone else.

Neptune, I feel I must now ask you a rather basic grammar question. Specifically, do you understand the difference between past tense and progressive tense? Like, say, the difference between "incurred" and "incurring"? >_>

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Not so fast. It doesn't refer to the color of your enmity meter. If the dev team set it up this way, your party could be engaged and you could have no enmity due to not being attacked or taking action.

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Yes, let's make a system where you can only regen MP when you have not been doing anything after your PT engages something, Oh wait.. what am i regenning? i have full MP due to have not been doing anything. I don't even..

You are trying too hard to rationalize whatever idea you have right now.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I've not run Darkhold with more than 3 healers, and the third is only for speed. I can hardly fathom needing a 4th (let alone 5th??) mage to tank heal. It is clear that whatever is going on these groups are doing something seriously, seriously wrong, and should not be succeeding at all. That's why this is an encounter design issue. You should not be able to do everything wrong and still win; that's poor design. The solution is to prevent people from winning this way by removing the "stack a ton of healing" loophole in the encounter design. You suggest doing exactly the opposite by making it vastly more convenient for them to win this way, while at the same time trivializing this and future content for everyone else.

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Well, before we go there, allow me to suggest.. the quality of your tank had something to do with your healer group size? Your character is fairly well maxed. If you or a character comparable to you were tanking you would have more abilities at your disposal than say someone with only Gladiator ranked. That has a lot to do with how many healers you need.

I'm all for super difficult gameplay. But I don't want it to seem like it's some kind of thing where people weren't paying attention that caused the influx of healers - it was due to how much MP it cost to cast Cure. They tripled to quadrupled the MP cost.. and parties tripled to quadrupled the amount of healers. It's really just as simple as that. Doesn't matter how legit it was.. it was caused by the game design.

You could argue that the community should dig in its heels and tighten up its game and respond to quadruple MP costs by REDUCING the amount of healers it first wants to take.. but what is the point of doing so? Unless you can counsel each and every party leader the second a new patch goes up.. why not leave it to the dev team to set the conditions that determine predictable community responses?

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Well, before we go there, allow me to suggest.. the quality of your tank had something to do with your healer group size? Your character is fairly well maxed. If you or a character comparable to you were tanking you would have more abilities at your disposal than say someone with only Gladiator ranked. That has a lot to do with how many healers you need.

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I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. I don't think there's a set of healers out there willing to pull a tank that's only leveled GLA.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Neptune, I feel I must now ask you a rather basic grammar question. Specifically, do you understand the difference between past tense and progressive tense? Like, say, the difference between "incurred" and "incurring"? >_>

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No, I don't know the difference. Can you explain it to me?

Did you read my explanation of how complicated it is to assume what's going on behind the scenes in the game if incurrED is to be liberally read into? I think that's beyond the scope of the patch notes. Has it occurred to you that if the enmity system was that complicated they might have explained it in detail?

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Yes, let's make a system where you can only regen MP when you have not been doing anything after your PT engages something, Oh wait.. what am i regenning? i have full MP due to have not been doing anything. I don't even..

You are trying too hard to rationalize whatever idea you have right now.

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There are a number of reasons it could have been worded like that in the patch notes. For instance, say you are in a group doing behest. You have expended a portion of your HP and MP. Your group engages the next enemy. You are regaining HP or MP according to the patch notes up until you take an action or move.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. I don't think there's a set of healers out there willing to pull a tank that's only leveled GLA.

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Who are you kidding? This game is not comprised totally of elitists. Many healers have no clue what I even said about the difference between a Gladiator who has many classes leveled and otherwise. Do you think only elitists have a right to HAVE A SLOT in a raid party?

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Well, before we go there, allow me to suggest.. the quality of your tank had something to do with your healer group size? Your character is fairly well maxed. If you or a character comparable to you were tanking you would have more abilities at your disposal than say someone with only Gladiator ranked. That has a lot to do with how many healers you need.

I'm all for super difficult gameplay. But I don't want it to seem like it's some kind of thing where people weren't paying attention that caused the influx of healers - it was due to how much MP it cost to cast Cure. They tripled to quadrupled the MP cost.. and parties tripled to quadrupled the amount of healers. It's really just as simple as that. Doesn't matter how legit it was.. it was caused by the game design.

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So with the current quadrupled MP cost, people have to come up with how to lessen the cure needed. fortunately, there are ways to do it in Darkhold, does people knows about it? or care to find out about it? probably no.

I will show you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbEHwYaG9wE
http://youtu.be/7SrFZKUYz7A?t=11m54s
Both video shows you method how to fight both raid NMs with close ranged melees not taking any damage at all.


Thing is, alot of players, if i were to point out directly, most DPS players that are from FFXI aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to figuring out these things or learns to adapt properly, how many DPS classes at FFXI that bothers with physical damage reduction gear? most only knows how to tank and spank, wait for cures. Neither do they pay attention to what cause what, what triggers what.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

No, I don't know the difference. Can you explain it to me?

Did you read my explanation of how complicated it is to assume what's going on behind the scenes in the game if incurrED is to be liberally read into? I think that's beyond the scope of the patch notes. Has it occurred to you that if the enmity system was that complicated they might have explained it in detail?

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Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again. Note that at this point you have cast (past tense), but are no longer casting (progressive tense).

To apply this to the patch notes, the notes say that you may regenerate MP while standing still, but may not regenerate while incurring enmity. Note that those are both progressive tenses. Meaning that once you've stopped (for however much time) regeneration will begin. If the amount of enmity you have is not changing, then you are not incurring enmity, you merely have incurred it.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Who are you kidding? This game is not comprised totally of elitists. Many healers have no clue what I even said about the difference between a Gladiator who has many classes leveled and otherwise. Do you think only elitists have a right to HAVE A SLOT in a raid party?

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Has nothing to do with elitism, but that's a nice red herring. If a tank doesn't have Warmonger, Disorient, Taunt, Accomplice, Prime Conditioning, etc., I very seriously doubt he'd ever be able to tank effectively, no matter how many mages you throw at him.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

So with the current quadrupled MP cost, people have to come up with how to lessen the cure needed. fortunately, there are ways to do it in Darkhold, does people knows about it? or care to find out about it? probably no.

I will show you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbEHwYaG9wE
http://youtu.be/7SrFZKUYz7A?t=11m54s
Both video shows you method how to fight both raid NMs with close ranged melees not taking any damage at all.


Thing is, alot of players, if i were to point out directly, most DPS players that are from FFXI aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to figuring out these things or learns to adapt properly, how many DPS classes at FFXI that bothers with physical damage reduction gear? most only knows how to tank and spank, wait for cures. Neither do they pay attention to what cause what, what triggers what.

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Thanks for posting that for any melee players that happen in here. You make an excellent point, and I couldn't agree with you more about the skill level of a lot of melee players. They're not used to positioning, and only a few are used to the idea of triggering abilities at the right time. The 4-5 healers was set based on the MP costs to cure 1 tank though. If it had been based on curing a whole party of (bad) DPS it would have had to be more healers than that!

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Thanks for posting that for any melee players that happen in here. You make an excellent point, and I couldn't agree with you more about the skill level of a lot of melee players. They're not used to positioning, and only a few are used to the idea of triggering abilities at the right time. The 4-5 healers was set based on the MP costs to cure 1 tank though. If it had been based on curing a whole party of (bad) DPS it would have had to be more healers than that!

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Bull****. Our LS regularly runs with 2-3 healers, and I still have to tell them to stop healing me (DPS) instead of the tank. Obviously you're exaggerating the hell out of the MP costs.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Thanks for posting that for any melee players that happen in here. You make an excellent point, and I couldn't agree with you more about the skill level of a lot of melee players. They're not used to positioning, and only a few are used to the idea of triggering abilities at the right time. The 4-5 healers was set based on the MP costs to cure 1 tank though. If it had been based on curing a whole party of (bad) DPS it would have had to be more healers than that!

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You are right, you are gonna need more healers for bad players, but this game doesn't caters for bad players only casuals and casuals doesn't equal to bad players. If bad players doesn't evolve into good players then they doesn't deserve a spot because they are wasting other's time.

and that video only has 3 healers with 2 nuking and DoT'ing, chatlog is there.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again. Note that at this point you have cast (past tense), but are no longer casting (progressive tense).

To apply this to the patch notes, the notes say that you may regenerate MP while standing still, but may not regenerate while incurring enmity. Note that those are both progressive tenses. Meaning that once you've stopped (for however much time) regeneration will begin. If the amount of enmity you have is not changing, then you are not incurring enmity, you merely have incurred it.



Has nothing to do with elitism, but that's a nice red herring. If a tank doesn't have Warmonger, Disorient, Taunt, Accomplice, Prime Conditioning, etc., I very seriously doubt he'd ever be able to tank effectively, no matter how many mages you throw at him.

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I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Bull****. Our LS regularly runs with 2-3 healers, and I still have to tell them to stop healing me (DPS) instead of the tank. Obviously you're exaggerating the hell out of the MP costs.

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I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

You are right, you are gonna need more healers for bad players, but this game doesn't caters for bad players only casuals and casuals doesn't equal to bad players. If bad players doesn't evolve into good players then they doesn't deserve a spot because they are wasting other's time.

and that video only has 3 healers with 2 nuking and DoT'ing, chatlog is there.

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I don't want you to think I somehow condone taking 4-5 healers or even think that is it rational. It's irrational, but it's what masses of players did because of the game design change. My only point is how game design affected that particular player behavior.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.



I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

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When I was still playing, there was no "default" regen within the five second rule, unless you had said gear or talents. May've changed since then, but whatever. . .

I saw your response to Noc, but I don't think it's. . . correct? Not quite sure what word to use there. I know that the timer used to exist, and it might still actually exist. For all we know, all they did was set the "Lower enmity by this value" number to 0. There'd be no way to tell the difference between that and a complete revamp to the system without seeing the actual coding. I'm not saying that's definitely how they did it, but I could easily see them re-purposing that function for this, even if it means re-introducing it.

Even if you find seven healers who know nothing about tanking, they'll notice real fast when the boss turns around and eats them, again and again, because the tank can't hold aggro. Or when the tank can't stay alive. Or when efforts to keep the tank alive result in the tank being the only one left alive. . .

Okay, edits:

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I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

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You're saying that 4-5 healers was determined within hours of people getting there. This video was uploaded 3 days after the patch went live. It shows three healers, four archers, and a gladiator tank. You can't even really argue that this was a result of skill (no offense to those involved in the making of the video), because there's so much this group could have done better. Not even counting that they could have triggered drops on purpose, they never cast Stoneskin on the tank after the pull (from what I saw, anyway). They basically got through the fight because they had a resilient tank and a little bit of MP management. Heck, they even spent several hundred MP healing their DPS.

Not bashing the guys that made this video, but if they can take 3 healers in and heal not only the tank but also the DPS, with only one piece of dungeon gear among them (from what I can tell), without even doing everything they can to manage MP, then I have to wonder wth people were doing with 5 mages standing there. . .

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I don't want you to think I somehow condone taking 4-5 healers or even think that is it rational. It's irrational, but it's what masses of players did because of the game design change. My only point is how game design affected that particular player behavior.

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4-5 healers in the run you pointed out earlier wasnt to cure 1 tank, it was to nuke and participate in BR, they were invited as long-range-DPS. Yes, i agree this has affected player behavior in a way or another (long range dps favor), but imo reducing MP cost again doesn't help this cause, other than making it easier.

It definitely doesn't help any of bad close range dps (the masses we're talking about) because mages will incurs enmity from curing them so much.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

*Editing my post in response to your edit. Don't respond yet. :P*

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lol.. ok.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

4-5 healers in the run you pointed out earlier wasnt to cure 1 tank, it was to nuke and participate in BR, they were invited as long-range-DPS. Yes, i agree this has affected player behavior in a way or another (long range dps favor), but imo reducing MP cost again doesn't help this cause, other than making it easier.

It definitely doesn't help any of bad close range dps (the masses we're talking about) because mages will incurs enmity from curing them so much.

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Oh, I have been talking about 4-5 this whole time, not from your video. It's just the general number that the community formed a consensus on within hours of the patch going up. Well, reducing the MP cost would make it easier, but it would ALSO allow more people to experience the content. That's really a moot point though because most people have stopped trying to beat Darkhold.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Oh, I have been talking about 4-5 this whole time, not from your video. It's just the general number that the community formed a consensus on within hours of the patch going up. Well, reducing the MP cost would make it easier, but it would ALSO allow more people to experience the content. That's really a moot point though because most people have stopped trying to beat Darkhold.

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I see your point but i still don't see how it would help getting those close-range DPS an invites. but, i will cut SE some slack because it is FFXIV's first real raid. Judging from the ifrit trailer, it doesn't seems to favor any class. It has long range directional, random mineblast, and huge range AoE that hits everyone, maybe that is better counter-measure for this issue :p?

I think Neptune is a whiny weiner, but I also agree that standing around wasting time does not exactly sound thrilling.

I understand they have to put a limit on how much can be regenerated during a battle, but between fights "roaming healing" as we had it now was a huge step into the right direction.

That way, you always had the feeling that running to the next mob wasn't just a waste of time, but "a meaningful action in itself". I wonder why they would drop that - and blame bad wording for some sort of misunderstanding.

P.S.: The only way to get melee characters more invites is making sure that
a) Melee DPS >> all sorts of ranged DPS (an Axe hurts more than an arrow)
b) Bosses have a permanent auto-regen that has to be overcome by higher DPS.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

I think Neptune is a whiny weiner, but I also agree that standing around wasting time does not exactly sound thrilling.

I understand they have to put a limit on how much can be regenerated during a battle, but between fights "roaming healing" as we had it now was a huge step into the right direction.

That way, you always had the feeling that running to the next mob wasn't just a waste of time, but "a meaningful action in itself". I wonder why they would drop that - and blame bad wording for some sort of misunderstanding.

P.S.: The only way to get melee characters more invites is making sure that
a) Melee DPS >> all sorts of ranged DPS (an Axe hurts more than an arrow)
b) Bosses have a permanent auto-regen that has to be overcome by higher DPS.

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I do wish we could keep the roaming healing, as you put it. On the other hand, maybe they couldn't get it to mesh quite right with passive casting. Who knows? Would I like to know the reason? Sure, as a matter of curiosity.

As to getting more invites, I don't want more, I want balanced. :p There are definitely ways to encourage this with encounter mechanics. Thinking I might start a thread about it. . .

There is an EASY solution.

Mana regen whilst stationary - 100% (+10 for every 10 seconds)
Mana regen out of battle (whilst moving) - 80%
Mana regen during battle - 5%

SE need to make consumables more important in this game such as potions and food.

Of course bard may have an mp regen spell so perhaps they are making prior changes

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Based on previous use, there are really two ways to interpret "incurring enmity:"

1. You perform an action that increases your enmity value.
2. You have a target's attention. (blinking red)

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Not really, it could be a bad translation and could actually mean you can't regen at all whilst in battle.
I won't be surprised if this is the case.

Every party member incurs some kind of enmity even a small amount the moment the enemy is engaged.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I've not run Darkhold with more than 3 healers, and the third is only for speed. I can hardly fathom needing a 4th (let alone 5th??) mage to tank heal. It is clear that whatever is going on these groups are doing something seriously, seriously wrong, and should not be succeeding at all. That's why this is an encounter design issue. You should not be able to do everything wrong and still win; that's poor design. The solution is to prevent people from winning this way by removing the "stack a ton of healing" loophole in the encounter design. You suggest doing exactly the opposite by making it vastly more convenient for them to win this way, while at the same time trivializing this and future content for everyone else.

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I feel this is less a thing regarding healing and more about the lack of challenge the trash provide, the majority of speed runs are just training mobs to a point where you can despawn them, this removes much of the challenge of even getting to a boss, they need to throw some mini bosses in these dungeons. (make it so that you have to kill mini boss A,B and C before the main ones even spawn)

Just look at a raid in WoW, mages get MP5/sec, access to potions and have mana gaining cooldowns and the fights (and even the trash) are many times more difficult.

SE have a long way to go before they master balancing in this game.

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Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again.

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This hasn't been the the case in WoW for a long time, they have always had in battle and out of battle mana regen, if you are in battle you get a fraction of the mana regen you normally would, casting does not effect it anymore.

I think its something like 5% or base mana regen whilst in battle.

Man... Guys, chill out and discover new strategies for your battles, that's what the Dev team would see us to do, since it's completely possible to do Dzemael Darkhold as it is now. Just understand better your class, plan better strategies, and you'll see that HP/MP regen problem will be no more =)

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Man... Guys, chill out and discover new strategies for your battles, that's what the Dev team would see us to do, since it's completely possible to do Dzemael Darkhold as it is now. Just understand better your class, plan better strategies, and you'll see that HP/MP regen problem will be no more =)

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Yes thats true, SE have always preferred that players fix their lack of game design, Ninja in FF11 for example.

In the german text it read more like you get no recovery while you are moving, use an action or an aggro signal is blinking

Paople ask SE to give alchemists a more relevant role in the economy and then refuse to even think about the possibility to buy Ethers for normal party play.

A few things to consider:

1. Battle system calculations have changed.

2. Spells can now be casted in pasive mode.

3. Featherfoot is like a refresh spell now so I think you can still recover mp while moving by using this skill.

4. Link and exp chain bonus system added. (being able to recover hp/mp while running might cause balance issues by allowing higher exp chains without much stategy)

5. Maximum hp/mp is getting increased.

So given how the entire battle system is changing it's probably a needed adjustment after it's been tested. The current hp/mp recovery is a left over from an old battle system that does not fit with the new system. I'm sure it will make sense once we try it out.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

That's an issue with the community, not the game.

100 bucks says the first party setup to kill Ifrit will be the "optimal" setup and the same shit happens again. But it's not because other party setups don't work, it's because many people don't want to waste the time trying different strategies, they'd rather go with what's been proven to work just to complete the content as quickly as possible. (I find this extremely humorous as these are the same players keep asking for "HARD" content, not realizing that the content is only "HARD" until a strategy is formed.) This is further emphasized by the small population, resulting in only a very small amount of players actually attempting different strategies.

So overall you have 80% of the population using the "optimal setup" while the other 20% are trying different things (just pulling numbers out of my ass, but that's probably pretty accurate). So it only appears that the "optimal setup" is more effective, simply because more players have completed it like that as opposed to those who've completed it with different setups.

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Completely agree with this.
Couldn't stand the fact that my old LS weren't even willing to try out new strategies and instead just decided to go with what other people showed worked.

It got quite annoying when everyone was bitching that I was making us go into darkhold blind without any info about 15 hours after the patch (because I was wanting us to figure stuff out for ourself)

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3. Featherfoot is like a refresh spell now so I think you can still recover mp while moving by using this skill.

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Unlikely. If featherfoot gave more than maybe 20-30　MP, it would be a mage exclusive skill. It's only intended to cover the use of the two advanced guild attacks, which cost 10 and 20 MP, respectively. LOL @ Featherfoot being the new "refresh".

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

LOL @ Featherfoot being the new "refresh".

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This is SE remember, stranger things have happened.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Unlikely. If featherfoot gave more than maybe 20-30　MP, it would be a mage exclusive skill. It's only intended to cover the use of the two advanced guild attacks, which cost 10 and 20 MP, respectively. LOL @ Featherfoot being the new "refresh".

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Light Strike is an advanced guild attack now? When did that happen?

I feel like thos thread got slightly derailed and is now more about how mp may regen in combat. The one thing I have an issue about with this change is that it is an unnecessary time sink if you're grinding solo. I'd like to be able to sheathe my weapon and heal a bit between each mob, not have to stand completely still every few fights so I can actually regen.

But I'm willing to wait till patch day and see how the regen rate while standing pans out.

Sorry but I had to leave the discussion last night it was getting late and I was getting tired.

After reading your responses Neptune I determined the best course of action in this case would be to explain in greater detail how the current enmity system works as well as previous uses of the term "incurring enmity" by SE to reach a conclusion found in evidence of how regen will work after 1.19.

Enmity System

A valuable member of the FFXIV community did some extensive testing on the enmity system introduced in patch 1.18. Before I get into a simple explanation, I encourage you to peruse the following two links:

Explanation of Testing Procedure

Chart of Enmity Values

When a party is engaged in battle, each party member has a numerical enmity value equivalent to 0+ per claimed enemy. Every 1 point of damage done directly results in 1 point of enmity gained. Any 1 point of HP healed directly results in 0.75 points of enmity gained. Furthermore, other non-violent skills have static values of enmity gain. Traits such as Intimidate and Out of Sight provide +10% and -10% to all enmity gains respectively.

Essentially, a player's enmity is described most accurately as a numeric value that increases through the actions of that player. Further testing also shows that enmity neither gradually decreases over time, nor gradually increases over time.

Given that information, it is quite easy to see the difference between incurring enmity and having incured enmity:

• By performing an action that grants enmity to the user, one is incurring enmity.
• By remaining still despite having performed action earlier in the engagement, one has incurred enmity, however their enmity value has not since changed.

With a very straightforward, cumulative enmity system such as this it is not so difficult to imagine an HP/MP regen system that kicks into effect after a certain period of time of having a constant enmity value, and stops once a player's enmity value increases. Such a system would allow for a mage casting in passive mode to constantly be regenerating HP and MP by waiting between casts.

Previous Uses of the Term Incurring Enmity

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Originally Posted by NOC_NA

DoL Stealth Skill

• Once activated, the stealth effect will remain indefinitely.
• However, the effect will wear off if you reuse the action, incur enmity, enter certain areas, or change classes.
• The action is not subject to a recast time.
• Movement speed will be reduced while stealthed.
• The stealth effect nullifies any effects present that grant increased movement speed.
• The action cannot be used when:
  • Incurring enmity
  • On chocoback
  • In certain areas, such as city-states and dungeons

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

Calling Your Steed
Your chocobo can be called by using the chocobo whistle via the micro menu.
However, you cannot call your chocobo when:

• Inside a city-state or dungeon.
• Incurring enmity from an enemy.

* No recast time is imposed upon the chocobo whistle.

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The bolded areas in the above quotes include the term incurring emity being used in the same tense.

In the case of the skill, Stealth, it is quite clear that incurring enmity is referring to getting aggro. If you already have the attention of a mob you cannot activate Stealth. With what we know about the enmity system, gaining aggro from a mob does not give you any numerical enmity. If another player was to come by and do exactly 1 damage on the enemy that has aggroed you, they would gain the enemy's attention and have hate on themselves henceforth.

This is important, because it points out that one can have an enmity value of 0, yet be in a state of incurring enmity.

The same conclusion can be reached by the information given by the information pertaining to the Chocobo Whistle.

With that manner of a definition, things get even more interesting. This implies that incurring enmity isn't necessarily based directly on your numerical enmity value, but rather the state of having the enemy's attention. When applied to the description of the changes to how one regenerates HP/MP it can be concluded that HP/MP regen only does not occur when the mage in a passive stance has a blinking red icon (has the mob's attention/hate), provided they are not at that point using an action.

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Originally Posted by NOC_NA

[dev1151] The following changes have been made to passive mode HP and MP recovery:

• Players will not automatically recover HP and MP when incurring enmity.
• HP and MP will automatically recover only while the player is stationary, regardless of whether or not he/she is engaged in battle. The amount of HP and MP recovered will increase based on the amount of time a player remains stationary.
  • The recovery amount will reset under the following conditions:
    • The player is attacked
    • The player moves or performs an action

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Furthermore, provided how performing an action is already explicitly given as something that resets HP/MP regen (note the use of reset instead of cease/stop) it would be redundant to suggest they mean to say gaining points of enmity will reset your regen value. Therefore, personally I am leaning towards HP/MP regen being active at all times between actions by a mage in passive mode so long as the mage is not blinking red.

I hope with that wall of text I was able to explain my reasoning effectively, and at least allow you to see the viable probability that mages very well may be regenerating MP quite often during party battle content.

^ Edited in a paragraph (second to last) in case anyone missed it.

My apologies, I thought I had that in there already when I posted my response.

I'm gonna guess that if you're anywhere on an enemy's hate list you're simply not going to be able to regen, blinking red or not. I doubt you'll be able to put away your weapon (even if someone in your group grabbed hate off you) and gain MP as long as the enemy(enemies) are alive.
Notice when your party engages an enemy, even if you have the enmity meters set to be displayed... they don't come up unless the enemy aggroed you directly or you perform an action on it. I think if you can see an enmity meter, you can't regen.
We'll see when the patch comes but that's what I'm taking away from this.

I still don't see why they took away the abilty to regen while moving, that's what I don't like!