Hardcore is not a dirty word

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Originally Posted by Bled

What happened to you is you grew out of the game... that happens to a lot of people. However that does not validate that FF11 was not a hardcore game. Hardcore games take a lot of invested time and you don't like that any more, that does not mean hardcore has changed it means you have changed.

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You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

oh and also Final Fantasy is not a hardcore franchise, all of them can be beaten by anyone who decides to play them...usually in about 40 hours or less (or so the story goes...)

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

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It fits the definition of a hardcore game to the "T" just like Disgaea, and just like Persona. You state that you are objectively looking at the game i would argue no, you are trying to rationalize to yourself why you no longer like the game when you at one time did. You at no point defined why FF11 was not a hardcore game yet you gave a mountain of objective evidence as to why it is a hardcore game.

HIGH TIME INVESTMENT

Of course i disagree that the mechanics were not complex, however you are allowed to have your opinions.

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Originally Posted by Bled

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

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I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

I question if XI was not hardcore what is a hardcore mmo? Because XI is probably one of the most hardcore mmos out there along side Lineage and Everquest in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I question if XI was not hardcore what is a hardcore mmo? Because XI is probably one of the most hardcore mmos out there along side Lineage and Everquest in my opinion.

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I question the very idea of a Hard Core MMO at all...

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I question the very idea of a Hard Core MMO at all...

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I question if such a thing even exists.

I think, like the dreaded 'immersion', 'hardcore' gameplay is just as subjective.

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Originally Posted by Bled

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

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Ah, see, now we're getting somewhere!

Now, I'd personally disagree that the camping or the economy qualify as hardcore, but that's mostly because I don't consider waiting to be hardcore. The time investment thing, I could go either way. I personally always thought of hardcore as requiring skill more than time, but time investment is, at the very least, a major connotation, so whatever. As to the rest, I've really nothing to say about them, having never actually played XI.

And about the irony. . . well, touché, but let's see you define a word without an appeal to the majority or appeal to authority. :p

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

I question if such a thing even exists.

I think, like the dreaded 'immersion', 'hardcore' gameplay is just as subjective.

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finally some one gets it!

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

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Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include strategizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

finally some one gets it!

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Hooray! Do I get a cookie? :D

The more I hear people talk about FFXI on here the more I want to give it another go, but I won't because I already know all the low levels zones are empty which would leave me mindlessly grinding away on lowbie mobs for months on end just to get to an area where I may 'possibly' find one or two players.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

finally some one gets it!

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I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I can feed you guys more and more objective proof however i cant make you see it. kinda like that old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink".

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Originally Posted by Bled

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

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I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

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That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

Just like immersion there are varying degrees, and my original post never said otherwise except for i wanted a more Hardcore experience that SE dished out in FF11.

As much as i disliked WoW i never said the end game was not hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include stigmatizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

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Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

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Originally Posted by Bled

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

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But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

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lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

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1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.

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i said end game... early game is redounclusly easy and spoon fed to you.

The only thing that makes me feel WoW is less of a hardcore experience versus FF11 is that fact that WoW instanced everything which is exactly one of the reasons why it fails as hard as it does now.

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Originally Posted by Bled

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

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your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.

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Know this one.

0/20 on Slithery Sykes yesterday for the shield. Previous attempt last week was 1/5.

1/50 (possibly more) on Barometz for the Lancer weapon.

2/6 on the Puk NM in Thanalan for the mask.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.

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to be perfectly honest that was hyperbole for the sake of argument, I think I may have camped him say 8 times and only killed him say 4 from 2001-2005 and never got the signa, usually he spawned claimed thanks to RMT bots. However, the signa was on a I think 1% drop rate, you're one lucky dude

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

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Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore game in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

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And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

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Since your just embarrassing yourself more and more ill just throw this out for you so you can drop your frivalus argument that has lead you no where.

SE developers, more specifically FFXIV developers, along with Yoshi, and along with Wada stated they were making a casual game. so lets use your basic logic on this one since higher thinking eludes you so, if there is a casual game there is a.... wait for it.... HARDCORE wow that was so hard! Just like if someone states there is good there must be.... you got it now? that's right evil!

And if next you counter argue that same line you all ready used "just because they said it dose not mean its true" argument ill leave you with 3 words Sir Isaac Newton.

And last but not least again if you read my post above that criteria i gave i state was just PARTS of what hardcore entails. Again ill say it there are varying degrees of hardcore and you know what FF11 fit the bill, and so does WoW's end game content. As to which of the above mention is more hardcore is left for another discussion. So please there's the door you can leave now.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Since your just embarrassing yourself more and more ill just throw this out for you so you can drop your frivalus argument that has lead you no where.

SE developers, more specifically FFXIV developers, along with Yoshi, and along with Wada stated they were making a casual game. so lets use your basic logic on this one since higher thinking eludes you so, if there is a casual game there is a.... wait for it.... HARDCORE wow that was so hard! Just like if someone states there is good there must be.... you got it now? that's right evil!

And if next you counter argue that same line you all ready used "just because they said it dose not mean its true" argument ill leave you with 3 words Sir Isaac Newton.

And last but not least again if you read my post above that criteria i gave i state was just PARTS of what hardcore entails. Again ill say it there are varying degrees of hardcore and you know what FF11 fit the bill, and so does WoW's end game content. As to which of the above mention is more hardcore that left for another discussion. So please there's the door you can leave now.

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okay you're just arguing yourself in circles and making no head way, But what the hell does Sir Issac Newton have to do with anything...this I have to hear.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

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Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

okay you're just arguing yourself in circles and making no head way, But what the hell does Sir Issac Newton have to do with anything...this I have to hear.

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You really are in a corner lol

you counter argued earlier saying that popular belief has nothing to do with validity no matter who its coming from.

Sir Issac Newton was a mathematician as id hope you know and Newton's work has been said "to distinctly advance every branch of mathematics studied" but just because he said the stuff, with your line of thinking he too would be false because screw popular belief i want to just pontificate and say Why? all day long, who cares about established meanings.

FFXIV developers are accredited in my book if they say Hardcore and Casual games exist far be it for me to say otherwise with no proof.

That line you fixated on was to counter a possible argument i thought you might bring up.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.

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and that would be my point all along. Hard core is a state of mind, not a tangible, empirical thing!

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Originally Posted by Bled

You really are in a corner lol

you counter argued earlier saying that popular belief has nothing to do with validity no matter who its coming from.

Sir Issac Newton was a mathematician as id hope you know and Newton's work has been said "to distinctly advance every branch of mathematics studied" but just because he said the stuff, with your line of thinking he too would be false because screw popular belief i want to just pontificate and say Why? all day long, who cares about established meanings.

FFXIV developers are accredited in my book if they say Hardcore and Casual games exist far be it for me to say otherwise with no proof.

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There is a considerable difference between Newton's advancement of mathematics, and Appeals to popular authority.

you see Newton, Father of Calculus, has empirical scientific data to back his "advancement of mathematics" you can test his theories

Saying something is true because lots of people "believe it" is not empirical data and is there for not evidence

do you even know what Debate and the scientific method are?

SCIENCED!!!

Just thought I'd throw this in, it's an interesting read, though slightly flawed.

Casual Vs. Hardcore Games

According to this because we're only playing one game for a prolonged period of time we're a 'casual gamer', where as if buy lots of games all the time we're 'hardcore gamers'. dunno how that works XD

Either way give it a read, may help lighten the mood a tad maybe.

I see it as this:

A hardcore game is a game where a casual player has an extremely hardtime succeeding, but the hardcore gamer has something they can play without running out of content. I feel Old XI (pre-abysea) accomplished this, I played for over 1000 RL days of playtime since launch and I never ran out of things to do, there was always something i could work for, something I could get that was better I could improve my character with. But the design of the game is what most players (casual base) see as not good, waste of time, too much work not enough reward, etc.

A casual game is where a hardcore player will just fly through the content and get stuck in the waiting game, but the casual gamer will be able to maintain a steady stream of progress throughout their playtime. I feel WoW and NA mainstream accomplishes this casual players can succeed and can easily progress through the content. They are rewarded for ever second of playtime, it is focused on little work but high reward. But the issue is the content... it is all short lived and quickly replaced. For example I started in Cataclysm on a new character.... I almost got to the new level cap in 5 days (seriously that is almost consol leveling curve), I have some friends who got almost all the new dungeon gear in 1-2 months they are now waiting on new content patches to be able to continue. {So basically WoW does not have enough content for all its players, 1 of XIV's issue atm.}

Someone who was just a casual player, played only for fun when they had free time, didn't want to really worry about grouping and building a strong bond with other players... honestly didn't do well in XI at all. They might of got to endgame probably took a few years but that was about it. They couldn't/didn't want to dedicate time to join a endgame shell, They didn't want to have to schedule the game into thier lived, They didn't want to have to wait 2-3 years for gear because they could only play 8-12hrs a week.

In a game like WoW that same person would get all the way to endgame, can do the easier raids to get decent gear, and so on. It is why WoW (the first casual mmo) was a massive success. There are simply more gamers who are casual and WoW turned the Hardcore genre into just another genre for all gamers. This is the same reason why so many hardcore oldschool gamers really dislike WoW.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

There is a considerable difference between Newton's advancement of mathematics, and Appeals to popular authority.

you see Newton, Father of Calculus, has empirical scientific data to back his "advancement of mathematics" you can test his theories

Saying something is true because lots of people "believe it" can not be tested and is there for not evidence

SCIENCED!!!

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Scienced?

do you even know what makes something a science because again you are embarrassing yourself lol.

Edit: i do agree with you the scope between the two is a big difference. However my point was that if a prominent figure states that say they are making a casual game (FFXIV) or a hardcore game (Disgaea 4) ultimately the burden of proof falls to you to prove that hardcore and casual does not exist seeing as both terms have been established by accredited people of the field.

So get working on your scientific method friend!

Does that make me a hardcore gamer in training because I left WoW for want of a bigger challenge and a more difficult game?

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Originally Posted by Bled

Scienced?

do you even know what makes something a science because again you are embarrassing yourself lol.

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I asked you first.

Seriously how is Issac Newton's work, you know the mathmatic principles on which your computer works, the LAWS of thermodynamics, and other considerable contributions to science and math all of which are testable and repeatable the same as "a lot of children believe in Santa Claus, therefore he is real."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I played FFXI from NA release and quit just after WotG...it wasn't hardcore, it was grindtastic, it was moderately successful and when WoW came out my server's pop went from 5,000~ avg at NA prime time to less than 2000~ avg at NA prime time and never rebounded by the time I quit

FFXI was the outlier...and I'm saying this as someone who enjoyed the game*


*well to be honest I liked goofing around with my LS mates the game itself was boring as sin.

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For curiosities sake did you complete the CoP missions before ToAU came out?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I asked you first.

Seriously how is Issac Newton's work, you know the mathmatic principles on which your computer works, the LAWS of thermodynamics, and other considerable contributions to science and math all of which are testable and repeatable the same as "a lot of children believe in Santa Claus, therefore he is real."

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Please look at last post edited in anticipation you were going to say that. ^

burden of proof falls to you.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Please look at last post edited in anticipation you were going to say that. ^

burden of proof falls to you.

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So your plan is to go from the logical fallacy of "Appeal to the People" to "Appeal to Authority"?

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

So your plan is to go from the logical fallacy of "Appeal to the People" to "Appeal to Authority"?

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Here you go this article i remembered reading when i was waiting for Disgaea 4 enjoy.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/118/1182004p1.html

and Appeal to Authority only holds true if i said "look my dad said hardcore exists" someone who is not a leading authority of that field, but no I'm giving you the developers and every other person working in the gaming field who are LEGITIMATE AUTHORITYS to the subject.

you on the other hand are not a developer so i would say you are not a leading authority, and you have given no objective proof backing your claim so everything you have stated is, frivolous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bled

Here you go this article i remembered reading when i was waiting for Disgaea 4 enjoy.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/118/1182004p1.html

and Appeal to Authority only holds true if i said "look my dad said hard core exists" some one who is not a leading authority of that field, but no I'm giving you the developers and every other person working in the gaming field who are LEGITIMATE AUTHORITYS to the subject.

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Ah but the fallacy also hold that a biased authority is also a unreliable authority.

not only that but the article you just provided wasn't written by Dr. Gooblotz p.h.d Videogamolgist, Ameritas, it was written by some yutz on IGN.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Ah but the fallacy also hold that a biased authority is also a unreliable authority.

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this should be good... what do you consider biased then? especially pertaining to this

talked about ambiguous terms being thrown around, we are all biased to degree right down to Newton.

lol you really are grasping at straws, when someone gets to the point where their only defense is link me scholarly journals otherwise i don't believe it to be true, you know you have a sore loser. This is an internet forum get over your self and own up to when you make false accusations and take them way to far, if you still don't agree with it you should bow out now; I don't see you posting any sources.

wheres your Dr. Gooblotz p.h.d Videogamolgist stating that hardcore games don't exist.

Hell id take some yutz from IGN and think on it if you posted that.