I think its time BRD get some loving

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Originally Posted by ShinHayato

You are a support class.

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There are no support jobs in this game and Yoshi P has confirmed they're not going to be added any time soon. Thanks for playing.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

/snip random arguing of buff definition

To me anyone who is arguing for the continued debuff is selfish, they benefit from the bards songs yet want to keep punishing the bard for helping and boosting your survivability and DPS. It comes across to me like "help boost and buff us bard but haha, f*** you bard for doing so." I personally am not asking for a buff, I am asking to decrease or remove the debuff, there is a big difference between those two things but the impact of that difference is not on everyone else or the current state of the game, it only really impacts the bard him or herself.

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Punishing you for helping others? Last I checked this is a team game and nobody is getting punished for helping the group. It's PvE, not some competition with the rest of your party members for which job is best.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Snip

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Decreasing the damage debuff from songs is very much so a buff. A buff is anything anychanges that makes your class perform better, whether it's through a direct damage increase or removal/decrease of certain penalties.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

It's not a buff when asking for a debuff to be reduced or removed. A buff is going above and beyond a baseline, a debuff is forcing something below that baseline. All the removal of the debuff or lowering of the consequences for the debuff does is merely bring something back up to the baseline and not boosting it above aka not a buff. Lets not forget the songs themselves buff everyone else above that baseline, there is no reason to debuff the caster/user for giving everyone else that advantage when even without it our DPS would rarely be near the top of the DPS charts for (most) BRD's.

It would not make them more or less mandatory in any sense whatsoever by removal of the debuff as they are brought along not for their DPS overall but for the boost to everyone else's DPS and survivability. If it was for the DPS as a major factor then that spot would not be filled with a BRD with or without that debuff, it is for the songs and as it stands currently the only person who suffers from the songs is the BRD and no-one else because they are being punished for helping everyone else whom they are boosting.

To me anyone who is arguing for the continued debuff is selfish, they benefit from the bards songs yet want to keep punishing the bard for helping and boosting your survivability and DPS. It comes across to me like "help boost and buff us bard but haha, f*** you bard for doing so." I personally am not asking for a buff, I am asking to decrease or remove the debuff, there is a big difference between those two things but the impact of that difference is not on everyone else or the current state of the game, it only really impacts the bard him or herself.

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Your first paragraph, what??
When you buff a class you make it stronger. When you nerf a class you make it weaker. Since the damage penalty on paeon/ballad are not removeable while singing, removing the damage penalty is a buff. No amount of fancy talking will change that.

Second/third paragraph, what??
You don't win a fight by magically having a certain amount of DPS. You win a fight by working together as a team. And for some reason every FCoB team brings a Bard. There is no class that is wanted as much as Bard. Warrior and Paladin are nearly equal after their buff in 2.1, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja and Black Mage are all very close when it comes to dps. But why do people bring a bard? Because without a Bard, in the long fights that FCoB has, dps (with the exception of Black Mage) can and most likely will run out of TP, or MP for healers if things get dangerous. Bard's role in the team, no matter how much you may argue that they are not a "support" class since the "support" class doesn't exist, is to support the group. Otherwise they would not have penalties on paeon/ballad and they would do just as much damage as everyone else. And when all the classes do the same dps in 95% of situations, why bother having more than one class to begin with?

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

No no no no just NO. For gods sake, I dont know what schmuck started saying this but it needs to stop... period. We play a song for casters that increases their damage, that damage is not ours, it is still very much theirs. This is like saying the ballad we play for healers, which allows them to keep the dps alive longer and continue to dps.. so a part of that damage should be ours AMIRIGHT?>???

...

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That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Decreasing the damage debuff from songs is very much so a buff. A buff is anything anychanges that makes your class perform better, whether it's through a direct damage increase or removal/decrease of certain penalties.

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To buff a debuff means boosting/increasing the 'negative' consequences of that debuff if want to get deeper into the semantics and logic of it. To boost the the positive without increasing the negative such buffs would have to be applied to a baseline and not a debuff. To buff is to increase or to enhance, when applied to a negative it increases that negativity. Which was my earlier point which I was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

No no no no just NO. For gods sake, I dont know what schmuck started saying this but it needs to stop... period.

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Bard is the only hybrid support/dps class we have and for support classes this is exactly how it works. That extra damage is only there because of the support class. Acting like they aren't a part of that equation is ignorant to where it came from.
I disagree with the OP. Our static bard does amazing damage and still does songs the whole time. If this change was made our bard would be doing similar damage to other normal DPS classes. This is not how balance works.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

To buff a debuff means boosting/increasing the 'negative' consequences of that debuff if want to get deeper into the semantics and logic of the term.

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Except you're not buffing the debuff here, you're buffing the class...

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

...And when all the classes do the same dps in 95% of situations, why bother having more than one class to begin with?

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It is the opposite of what you claim, when classes are more equal in DPS then more people are willing to play other classes. If for example monk and ninja had equal damage output then not so many people would pick monk over ninja, if summoners and black mages had equal damage output as another example then the players who play those would be more equally spread out. If paladin and warriors had equal survivability the quantity of players on each would be more equal.

If one class has a statistical/numerical advantage like with DPS over another that leads to more people picking that class with the advantage because not many people want to play something which they know puts them at a disadvantage. So I very much disagree with your claim above. Your confusing class variety coming from appearance, skill sets animations, gear style, lore and other such things with if go by your example in which you claim variety based on DPS then it is the opposite effect to what you claim.

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

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There is not a single player I have EVER come across who has ever said the boosted damage they did shown in their parsers and such was the bards DPS or damage. So I'm sorry but no-one ever says the increase in damage they do on their alternative class because of a bard song was the bards damage, they all claim it is their DPS and damage output. They might possibly say they did (x) amount of damage while a bard played something but they will always say that damage was theirs and never the bards.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Except you're not buffing the debuff here, you're buffing the class...

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I am talking about the debuff on the skills. You can decrease that debuff, you can remove that debuff but to buff that debuff would be to increase the negative consequences of it. Which is why I made the distinction of saying I am not asking for a buff, I am asking to decrease or remove the debuff.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Just remove the %damage debuff that comes with songs, their removal will not turn BRD's into DPS kings, it will not even have that great an effect overall and other classes will still have their DPS boosted by our songs while ours are not boosted but also not debuffed while boosting everyone else's. Quite frankly there is no good reason to debuff our DPS even more so than the low end DPS we have in general just because we play songs that boost other peoples DPS.

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If they removed the damage debuff there wouldn't be any point in using mana or tp since the bard can just keep the songs up as often as possible, and healers can spam cures all day. It's part of the mechanics with bard to know when to play what song. Popping a song during the hardest dps check in the game isn't a good strategy, but doing it in between the dps checks is.
But if they removed it bard would feel like a mindless class keeping up 2 dots and some cd management

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Just remove the %damage debuff that comes with songs, their removal will not turn BRD's into DPS kings

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You are severely underestimating what good bards can do. It would absolutely make them overpowered to have the buffs and no song penalty at the same time. This entire suggestion appears to ignore any game balance because you want to see bigger numbers. Bards are not top end DPS. Bards are hybrid classes. If you want bigger numbers DON'T PLAY A HYBRID CLASS. It's that simple. You don't twist and contort the job to be the same as the others while completely ignoring the added damage and utility the class brings to a party as a whole. A Bards value does not lie in it's DPS, and it won't ever lie in it's DPS. That's not what the class is. The absolutely failure to understand that is why this suggestion is dead on arrival.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You are severely underestimating what good bards can do. It would absolutely make them overpowered to have the buffs and no song penalty. This entire suggestion appears to ignore any game balance because you want to see bigger numbers. Bards are not top end DPS. Bards are hybrid classes. If you want bigger numbers DON'T PLAY A HYBRID CLASS. It's that simple.

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I disagree, there may be outliers or some who do extremely good damage but those few do not make up a vast majority of people who play bards. Those that are within that category generally have to work harder to make up for the lackluster gear stats SE throw our way and many of the skill stats compared to some other DPS classes whom have better DPS gear quality and better designed skill stats. I do not believe it will make bards overpowered at all, not for a single second do I believe they would be if remove the %damage debuff on the songs while playing those songs. The party dynamic will not change, it will not increase or decrease the amount of spots bards fill, it will simply increase slightly the DPS output of most bards while not being overpowered at all.

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

That ~15% bonus damage casters deal during foe's requiem is theirs? But what happens when you stop singing? That ~15% extra damage they were doing suddenly disappears. Sing again and it comes back. You are causing that damage to happen. It is your damage. You performing an action causes that damage to appear.

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So me playing paeon means I get a portion of a melee's damage also then?
Playing ballad means Im gaining some healing too?

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

A buff is a buff is a buff -- the concepts of buffs have not changed, nor will they ever.

Asking to remove the penalty from paeon and ballad also DOES NOT = bards OP -- we arent playing paeon and ballad 24/7

http://www.troll.me/images/ancient-a.../semantics.jpg


And please guys, cut the crap. This game is about the party's dps, not your own pee-wee. Bards add :

=> ~15% more damage to casters for free with Foe
=> a TP regen which allows ALL of your melee jobs not to be utter garbage past the 4/5 mins mark
=> a MP regen which allows healers to continue their job in dire situations (namely, learning) or prevents SMNs from sucking hard by being MP dried

the 2 regens coming at the cost of a dps loss for the bard, while increasing the overall dps of the party. melees dried ? your DPS loses way more than your beloved 20%. Healers dried ? Congrats, it's a wipe, you lost everything.

Stop thinking about yourself, start thinking about your team

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

-snip-

Stop thinking about yourself, start thinking about your team

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I find it ironic that many of the people against removal of this debuff care less about 'the team' when nerfs, debuffs and buffs of their own class comes up in discussions and threads...but all of sudden becomes about 'the team' when it's another persons class being discussed. Here is a fun fact for you, the 'team' is not negatively impacted by the removal of the debuff. It increases the DPS (slightly) from the bard while still benefiting the team by way of boosting their DPS and survivability, so if you care about the team as much as you claim then you would be for the removal and not for keeping it.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

...as is that our 135 weapon is about as powerful to any other DPS's 115 weapon they could get from Shiva.

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I'd argue it's reasonable. Why? Bards can attack while avoiding anything uninterrupted (aside from forced downtime in fights). If the weapon damage from the bows were raised to the same as the rest of the weapons of the same level bard would be completely overpowered. The damage output would be far too good in comparison to other jobs for the current mechanics of the game. Nobody would take any other role into a duty for the sole reason that Bards would be able to DPS just as well as a melee AND be able to output damage while avoiding pretty much everything. I recall early in XIV2.0 when to farm say Garuda EX people would only stack bards because it made everything easier. Now imagine if Bards had the same damage as a Monk.

Also taking into consideration that the other DPS roles need to work harder to maintain a higher DPS and bard is essentially our "support" job, it makes sense that bards have a lower overall DPS output. Monk loses stacks or needs to run away from the enemy to get out of AoE? DPS takes a hit. BLM/SMN need to get out of AoEs? DPS takes a hit because of casting times. DRG/NIN dies? Heh... Sorry, healer humor.

Couple things:

1 | You all are mostly arguing about nothing. If you are smart and see a dumb person that is arguing about something that just doesn't pertain to the subject at hand: ignore them.
2 | You carry your BRD's DPS through DPS checks, just like your BRD carries you through 5 minute melee engagements and AE-Healing heavy portions of the fight. If you don't have to carry your BRD through a DPS check, then you are seeing 4 Bennus day 1, killing every mob on time in T13 the first time you see it, and never seeing an enrage. Its not about making the class OP, its about making the party OP.

In addition, let's take a quick examination of what a BRD can do without interrupting their DPS much if any (certainly losing less DPS than ANY other job).

T1 - Spawn and kite slimes
T7 - Kite renaulds
T8 - Tether/Brainjack
T9 - Kite/Tank Golem
T10 - Pick up add and Kite for PLD
T11 - Spread for Seed of River
T12 - Bluefire/Redfire
T13 - Earthshakers

WOW THAT'S A LOT OF GOOD STUFF WITHOUT LOSING MUCH DPS.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I find it ironic that many of the people against removal of this debuff care less about 'the team' when nerfs, debuffs and buffs of their own class comes up in discussions and threads...but all of sudden becomes about 'the team' when it's another persons class being discussed. Here is a fun fact for you, the 'team' is not negatively impacted by the removal of the debuff. It increases the DPS (slightly) from the bard while still benefiting the team by way of boosting their DPS and survivability, so if you care about the team as much as you claim then you would be for the removal and not for keeping it.

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Guess we should buff every class then, go team!

Bards are fine.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

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T1 - Spawn and kite slimes -- Kite them and watch them explode and wipe the raid? Yea, thats not happening. YOu have to stay within a certain range or they explode.

T7 - Kite renaulds ok

T8 - Tether/Brainjack Tether sure, brainjack ... any class can do this without losing much dps

T9 - Kite/Tank Golem 1. Kiting these golems is a horrible idea 2. ANY job can tank them without losing much dps.

T10 - Pick up add and Kite for PLD So you have a bard pick up a daughter or son and kite it? wierd either way I'd argue that because of how fast they run, you still get hit, not to mention their frontal and back cones. Where are you getting this stuff from?

T11 - Spread for Seed of River Any class can do this, its called rotating around the boss -- Yes even with 3 melee Flank/Rear/Flank

T12 - Bluefire/Redfire -- At the cost of a pretty big damage debuff.

T13 - Earthshakers -- ok

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Guess we should buff every class then, go team!

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I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'team' excuse.

The team does not benefit from the debuff, the team is not a valid excuse.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I find it ironic that many of the people against removal of this debuff care less about 'the team' when nerfs, debuffs and buffs of their own class comes up in discussions and threads...but all of sudden becomes about 'the team' when it's another persons class being discussed. Here is a fun fact for you, the 'team' is not negatively impacted by the removal of the debuff. It increases the DPS (slightly) from the bard while still benefiting the team by way of boosting their DPS and survivability, so if you care about the team as much as you claim then you would be for the removal and not for keeping it.

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fun fact, I'm a bard whenever I'm not tanking (though I've been playing DRG more and more as the bard spot is taken in my group, but that's an other story) so I perfectly understand what's the subject here.

What you do NOT understand here is that the damage reduction (which isn't that big by your own words) is way justified by their overwhelming utility. Top bards have what, 400-450 dps at max ? while singing, it drops to 320-360 for a minute or so (if singing a regen of course), while increasing melees's dps by a lot (Paeon adds 30 TP per tick, which is half the normal regen, diminishing the probability that they'll end up TP-starved). The dps loss of the bard is totally neglictible in regards to the dps increase of the melees not being TP starved.
(disclaimer : it's not a raw dps increase for melees as their nmbers aren't higher, but they are able to maintain dps longer, which is indeed a dps increase throughout the fight)

the MP regen is a bit more touchy, but in the end, it's the difference between losing 20% of the bard's dps or losing the fight. The choice is clear imo. And even if only your SMN needs it, what is losing 80-90 dps when compared to losing 400+ if the SMN is MP-starved ?


That is balance. Bards bring an insane utility to the group, thus their dps is nerfed compared to others in terms of raw numbers. And truly, if your team needs such a slight increase to be able to beat content, you might want to check if the other dps aren't slacking.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'team' excuse.

The team does not benefit from the debuff, the team is not a valid excuse.

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the team benefits from the spell. you get the debuff for providing such a good utility.


TL;DR : this game is designed around team DPS during an entire fight. your dps loss means a team dps increase overall, and that increased dps is within dev's view on what the team dps should be. If it bothers you, go play an other job and see how your group is doing without bringing any bard at all.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

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T1 - Yeah you can kite them just stay less than 1 hexagon away, you can still get out of hitbox range if you have any skill whatsoever
T8 - Tether/BJ are typically lumped together so that that person isn't also responsible for feeding a tower. BK wasn't really my point I was just naming the job for the fight.
T9 - You have to move it to feed it...
T10 - Can have the BRD pick one up while the others are getting finished so that you can DPS the MTs down first. Its something I've seen done but I will concede its not common. So... ok.
T11 - Most groups don't spread into an octagon around the boss though? Most have healers/BRD back off while BLM/melee/melee spread?
T12 - But their DPS is effected much less than any other classes moving to Bluefire and then to redfire, and if they can wait long enough they can minimize the dmg debuff better than any other class.

Sure, arguably any job could do those things, but my point is that BRD's dps is effected the least. Its just another advantage that they have. Go have a NIN/BLM/DRG/MNK or even SMN do any of those jobs and tell me what the raid DPS loss is versus having a BRD do it.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

The team benefits from the spell. you get the debuff for providing such a good utility.

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My point is the debuff does not need to exist, it does not balance the teams in any significant way whatsoever as player skill, gear and rotations do a million times more for balancing than a debuff on skills that one class uses who might be present. The increase in DPS gained from not having that debuff is as you admit not significant and there are negative consequences for not having that debuff on the teams ability to clear content. The debuff serves no more purpose than slapping someone in the face for baking you a cake metaphorically.

The team would be no worse off without the debuff, it has zero impact on mobility with or without it, the increase in DPS overall would not be that big without it and the debuff does not add much at all if anything towards the balance of the fights. Any balance it might have had is undone completely by the randomness of quality of peoples rotations, player skills and gear quality or party composition. It's as balancing as throwing a pie in a pretty boys face just because he's pretty simply out of spite in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I disagree, there may be outliers or some who do extremely good damage but those few do not make up a vast majority of people who play bards. Those that are within that category generally have to work harder to make up for the lackluster gear stats SE throw our way and many of the skill stats compared to some other DPS classes whom have better DPS gear quality and better designed skill stats. I do not believe it will make bards overpowered at all to remove the %damage debuff on the songs while playing those songs. The party dynamic will not change, it will not increase or decrease the amount of spots bards fill, it will simply increase slightly the DPS output of most bards while not being overpowered at all.

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I'm sorry but you're absolutely wrong here. I have a perfect example too. Remember when the Ninja nerf happened? They explicitly said that they use dummies and party damage to find out how players are performing. In the case of the Ninja that explicitly said the best players were getting more damage out of the class than they wanted. Therefore we got the ninja nerf. They used the best players exclusively to make that decision. Not the average of players. Not the range of damage among players. Specifically they used the best players. So yes, they will balance the class around those top end "outlier" players and we have solid proof that it's how they do things based on recent history.

Also, I have to completely disagree that it won't change party dynamics, but this one could go either way. Without the debuff to damage bards would jump in personal damage but maintain their utility. We would quickly see all bard parties appearing that chain their songs along for great effect. You can't have these top end players doing massive damage and singing the whole time with no penalty.

In general though you are very much underestimating what a good bard can do.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'team' excuse.

The team does not benefit from the debuff, the team is not a valid excuse.

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Of course they don't get a benefit from a debuff. No one does so that doesn't make sense to argue that point. It's not all about the debuff. It's not like you just get a debuff with nothing to show for it either. To ignore what a bard can do for the team is ignorant of what they bring to a party and ignorant of what they are capable of. Your suggestions would imbalance the game and are bad for the game. You clearly don't care about game balance. You clearly only care about your own epeen.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

My point is the debuff does not need to exist, it does not balance the teams in any significant way

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Yes, it absolutely does. Our bard specifically chooses the times for singing because of the debuff. They choose times where the damage isn't as necessary to push a phase, or kill an add fast enough. It completely changes the party dynamic for how the buffs are used and when. Saying it won't changes how the dynamic works over and over won't suddenly make that mantra reality. In several of the final coil fights right off the top of my head I know moments where this suggested change would change the way our bard and therefore our party tackles the situation. I know you're wrong because I'm out there living it and doing it. Seeing you repeat it over and over won't negate my real world experience that tells me without a shadow of a doubt that you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

So me playing paeon means I get a portion of a melee's damage also then?
Playing ballad means Im gaining some healing too?

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

A buff is a buff is a buff -- the concepts of buffs have not changed, nor will they ever.

Asking to remove the penalty from paeon and ballad also DOES NOT = bards OP -- we arent playing paeon and ballad 24/7

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Why should we stop the strawman there?
Healers actually do ALL of the dps AND all of the tanking in any fight with unavoidable damage, since they keep the party alive, right?

At this point, especially since the game developer has advocated against dps tracking, why is it such a big deal to have high damage output on all dps classes?

If the things die, then the goal is achieved. Bard helps the group through various utility (mana song, tp song, and emergency rez level 3 limit break in a pinch if healers have died). Bard also has the advantage that we're both mobile damage (no cast times besides songs) and we're ranged, so Bard can be applying damage at more times then any other class.

A dps contributing to the group does not always have to be in pure damage output.

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Originally Posted by Aerowaffle

At this point, especially since the game developer has advocated against dps tracking, why is it such a big deal to have high damage output on all dps classes?

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Just because they advocate not using dps tracking doesn't mean they are so ignorant to think people don't use them and to design the game in a way that ignores them. Also, more damage means bosses die faster making coil and other tough content even easier. The class imbalances exist for reasons.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

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so don't sing Paeon, let's see how your parse relative to them gets at that point. your only objective is to get your parse number closer to the other DPS right?

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Of course they don't get a benefit from a debuff. No one does so that doesn't make sense to argue that point. It's not all about the debuff. It's not like you just get a debuff with nothing to show for it either. To ignore what a bard can do for the team is ignorant of what they bring to a party and ignorant of what they are capable of. Your suggestions would imbalance the game and are bad for the game. You clearly don't care about game balance. You clearly only care about your own epeen.

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Your basing your principle of balance on what a few are capable of in your comment and not what the majority are doing. A game should be balanced for the majority and not the few or the outliers. So to me you care less about balance than I do because your coming at it in a flawed way.

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

Why should we stop the strawman there?
Healers actually do ALL of the dps AND all of the tanking in any fight with unavoidable damage, since they keep the party alive, right?

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I'm merely pointing out that your concept of a buff is... well, wrong. Im sure you understood the point I was making, obviously.

The concept of buffs has never changed, why it does in this game all of a sudden is beyond me. Thats for you to explain...

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so don't sing Paeon, let's see how your parse relative to them gets at that point. your only objective is to get your parse number closer to the other DPS right?

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Clearly jumping in the end of a conversation without even reading. Try again, read slower, and then come back!

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Just because they advocate not using dps tracking doesn't mean they are so ignorant to think people don't use them and to design the game in a way that ignores them. Also, more damage means bosses die faster making coil and other tough content even easier. The class imbalances exist for reasons.

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Every single patch with new gear or debuffs for old content invalidates that as a viable excuse because content is constantly and rapidly becoming easier with patches and new content. To say you need to keep the debuff so mobs won't die too fast is like telling SE to stop creating new levels of gear or new content that contains boss tweaks or echo. The fights are not easier to balance with the debuff and all that content is made easier regardless of having the debuff or not due to the ever increasing gear and boss nerfs. If anything (to me) it makes balancing even harder having to take into account a fairly worthless variable (debuff) that the teams and individuals would be better off without.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Your basing your principle of balance on what a few are capable of in your comment and not what the majority are doing. A game should be balanced for the majority and not the few or the outliers. So to me you care less about balance than I do because your coming at it in a flawed way.

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be honest please. Everyone should be able to equal the top players (or at least do 80% of their work) if they tried it hard enough. But they don't. Because modern MMO players do not give a fuck about working toward something. They are happy enough if things die before them, even if that means they were carried hard by people who worked to be better.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Every single patch with new gear or debuffs for old content invalidates that as a viable excuse because content is constantly and rapidly becoming easier with patches and new content. To say you need to keep the debuff so mobs won't die too fast is like telling SE to stop creating new levels of gear or new content that contains boss tweaks or echo. The fights are no harder to balance without the debuff than they are with it and all that content is made easier regardless of having the debuff or not due to the ever increasing gear and boss nerfs.

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way to miss a point. Every patch with new gear or nerfs to the content comes with new bleeding edge content, thus making your point invalid. Obsolete content has no reason to remain difficult, hence why balance isn't required anymore in it. On the other hand, top content that is actually relevant is always well balanced.


I'm starting to think that you either don't know anything about what you're trying to argue, or you just ran out of arguments and continued just to try to have the last word

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

be honest please. Everyone should be able to equal the top players (or at least do 80% of their work) if they tried it hard enough. But they don't. Because modern MMO players do not give a fuck about working toward something. They are happy enough if things die before them, even if that means they were carried hard by people who worked to be better.

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The primary target audience of this game is not the elitists and minority top end players, it is the medium level of commitment and casual crowds that the game caters to more so than the hardcore, just because there is a small amount of hardcore content does not mean all content in the game is or should be designed for or balanced for that crowd. The game should not be balanced for the top 1% of players, it should be balanced for the remaining 99% so saying just because know a few bards whom do amazing DPS does not mean the game should be balanced for those, in my opinion it should be balanced for the majority who do not fall into that top 1% category.

What would be the point of the tp system, if one class could just sort tp of whole party with little penalty.

Paeon isn't meant to be played all day, it's just there to tie you over until invigorate comes off cd. get your mellee to communicate with as when they don't need ur paeon any longer. Like this, there is very little affect to to overall dps of a 10 minute fight .

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Come on lol, it isn't like we sing paeon all day. U just sign in the time it takes for invigorate to come off cd. Even with this, bards do very good dps. I think sumoners are in desperate need of changes

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I see no reason why SE cannot remove the %damage debuff on bards for songs at same time as increasing the DPS for lancers and fixing summoners. I do not think has to be one thing or the other, they can do all three things in my opinion. Our resource management as bards is not limited to TP, it is also MP so the resource management will not vanish just because of no %damage debuff on songs. I am constantly having to switch between different songs during long fights due to various needs of people present, MP management is quite high up on the agenda in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Come on lol, it isn't like we sing paeon all day. U just sign in the time it takes for invigorate to come off cd. Even with this, bards do very good dps. I think sumoners are in desperate need of changes

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Exactly, so why have the debuff at all? Removing it will not cause a balance issue to the game or mechanics or pure dps jobs. To sit and think that people will stack 4 bards because of the removal of the debuff is quite silly. There is nothing to gain from it, what? playing ballad all fight? Waste. Play paeon all fight? Waste. Foes all fight? oh wait, there is no debuff on that.

There is no point in having it anymore, truly there isnt. Maybe on first coil when bards WERE OP? Sure but since the balance pass, there really is no need for it as its not going to increase dps by THAT MUCH.

It wont trivialize content, bards will still play songs when it best suits the party.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I disagree, there may be outliers or some who do extremely good damage but those few do not make up a vast majority of people who play bards.

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Then all of those Bards should strive to be better players, instead of making random suggestions on the forums about how the Job is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Your basing your principle of balance on what a few are capable of in your comment and not what the majority are doing. A game should be balanced for the majority and not the few or the outliers. So to me you care less about balance than I do because your coming at it in a flawed way.

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But the few and the 'outliers' are the ones who are performing their jobs correctly. The changes that all of you want to incorporate make those "few" actual good players way too overpowered (in regards to the WD as well as the song penalty)


We had the WD before. That was nerfed already because people were going into Titan HM (when it was relevant content, we are talking avg ilvl ~55-60) with 5 bards because they did enough damage to warrant not even having a limit break. 5 bard heart burn was disgusting. The WD will not be given back to us.

Everyone keeps making such a big deal about the damage penatly during song as well, when most of the people advocating it are outright confessing that songs aren't even used that much. If this penalty was removed, it would cascade into "we need more buffs because removing the penalty from songs wasn't good enough".


So in conclusion...



Your main argument here is that 95% of Bards that play suck at their job, so they need to be buffed because the players are bad?


Such logic...no wonder my static PLD told me when we first started raiding together: "I wish all Bards could play like you"

What will be your trade off for giving tp and mp to the whole party then? If they dont have the debuff everything 8man will be 3brds 1drg healers and tanks. 1 brd paeon 1 brd ballad when their mp run out the 3th brd ballad rinse and repeat, infinite mp and tp.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

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Congratulation, you just convinced me that you don't know how balancing a MMO game works.

If you want to have balance, you HAVE to balance it for the best players. If not, they'll just rip your game apart and everyone will follow their path; removing any sense of difficulty in the game, forcing then the devs to adapt to the top players, and it's done, the game is yet again balanced for top end gamers just as if you had done if from the start.

In the average 99%, there will be many categories, but mainly 3 :

=> those who will try to progress. They'll be able to pull out high numbers, maybe not the best possible but high enough to do anything in the game

=> those who don't care. They won't meet content that need them to do better anyway, they just follow their path. But what you're trying to argue doesn't interest them either.

=> those who don't want to work to be better (ain't anybody got time for that ?). They'll get carried through everything because they cant pull their own weight, and they're most likely to cry about anything with the word "reduce" in it it applying to themselves, because they can't grasp the bigger picture. Those people should stay out of MMOs in my opinion as they don't really fit the genre but whatever, who am I to tell them what to do ? I'll just live with it. And avoid them as much as possible.

TL;DR : game balance revolves around what the best ones can do. If not the game isn't balanced at all and it's crap. Those who aren't top end players can either improve to join the top, don't care and go their way or whine endlessly for buffs that aren't needed. Which category you belong is up to you.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Your main argument here is that 95% of Bards that play suck at their job, so they need to be buffed because the players are bad?

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isn't that the most used argument for many things ? "Players are bad so they must be buffed to be able to do as much damage as the top players", forgetting that top players would also benefit from these buffs, making them godlike