So, how is Pagos?

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Once the NM train is back, gameplay will be gone and Pagos will be boring. Yes, people take the easier route, but they will never enjoy it. Why make Pagos not enjoyable for anyone, just so it is 'tolerable' for some? Wouldn't it make more sense to have varied content for different types of players rather than limiting what people can do? If something is only tolerable, why even play it? It's not like anyone really needs the relic. You say I am being selfish but much of the instances in game are not even geared towards someone like me. Do I oppose it? No. You are not asking to change it a little or even moderately for quality of life purposes. You want the zerg train, in order to get it over with. You are not looking to enjoy it. If you don't like Pagos that much, don't do it. If there aren't enough people like me, SE will take the hint.

I've done others relics, but that really shouldn't matter. You guys need to stop with the hostility. I said it earlier that is why you will not see people disagreeing all that much.

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I enjoyed Anemos. Sweeping generalizations built on lies are a poor way to argue anything.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Honestly the other way of running old content, lower lvl content to help new players get through dungeon queues was a way better relic design than mindlessly killing the same mobs over and over again.

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Especially when higher levels can't even help the lowbies.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

my point is that content aimed for the greater playerbase shouldn't only satisfy the tiniest sliver of it.

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Hasn't this been all of SB's additional content? PvP arena, PvP Moba, Ultimate Trials, HoH with ridiculous level saving and time to complete.... and of course Eureka, the FF11 grind simulator

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Hasn't this been all of SB's additional content? PvP arena, PvP Moba, Ultimate Trials, HoH with ridiculous level saving and time to complete.... and of course Eureka, the FF11 grind simulator

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Debatable. Some of that (PVP, ultimate) is designed for a specific set of people and not the entire playerbase, the same way new recipes, new glamours, new beast tribes are introduced for niche groups - and it doesn't bother me when content is added for specific groups, as it does some people. That's why I'm not saying even Eureka needs to be removed. I'm saying it shouldn't be tied to the relic. As for HoH, most people I know actively enjoy it. I haven't had a single person in game tell me they like Pagos.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

It's a relic. It's shouldn't be just handed over.

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And the previous weapons weren't. You worked for them. But you had a variety of ways you could put in that work. It kept things fun and flexible and eased the tedium of the grind.

That's the thing these developers don't understand about implementing these EQ era concepts. You need ways to ease the tedium of the grind. We had plenty of time to joke around and socialize and be silly in our groups while waiting for the puller to get back when I played EQ. We bickered or debated in zone chat. We played /gems while medding. All those things eased the tedium of the grind. I hated Anemos with a passion, but at least the shout chat was fun.

This set up does nothing to ease the grind and develop a welcoming community. The social aggro and mob placement in the environment is too hazardous to be the hero and rescue someone with a raise. You can't dare pause for a second in groups because the chain falls off way too fast. And while there was a problem in Anemos with not waiting on NM pulls, it's multiplied by 1000 in Pagos.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

Debatable. Some of that (PVP, ultimate) is designed for a specific set of people and not the entire playerbase, the same way new recipes, new glamours, new beast tribes are introduced for niche groups - and it doesn't bother me when content is added for specific groups, as it does some people. That's why I'm not saying even Eureka needs to be removed. I'm saying it shouldn't be tied to the relic. As for HoH, most people I know actively enjoy it. I haven't had a single person in game tell me they like Pagos.

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I just find they are overdoing the catering to niche segments of the player-base while ignoring a solid foundation in the game.

I am done with Pagos til it is totally revamped. Except for the WEEKLY Challenge Log it exp and leveling is 10X slower then the Dunes ever were. Chain parties are virtually worthless considering the amount exp gained vs the amount needed for the next level. Doing Fates are ok except for the fact that they are few and far between. That is if you can get a party to do them. Everytime i have shouted for an NM party I get get shanghaied into a log or Chain party with little or no gain. Then these people don't understand when I get upset at them for leaving them. Movement within the zone is next to impossible solo. I cannot even complete the lvl 25 quest because of its placement and no party is willing to take the time to escort people to these place. I know people are going to consider these points as nitpicking and whining on my part. I don't care. They are enough to make Pagos a complete turn off for me, especially when IK can get equal gear elsewhere. SE if you are interested in making this a viable content fix it.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

Especially when higher levels can't even help the lowbies.

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It's probably the biggest design flaw of Eureka. In Anemos it was solved by accident with the train. New players coming in will have a hard time finding a bunch of other low level players to grind with, so they have to ride the train for EXP. In Pagos there's no train so at this point you almost have to go back to Anemos at least for a few levels. The gaps are only going to get wider as time goes on, so Pagos is just going to get worse and worse.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Anemos was way too fast.

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Probably it. Before Anemos, what was the last relic step that involved a somewhat lengthy grind?

The last step of the previous relic was running hard mode primals. The one before that was a light grind. What was the most efficient method of grinding light? Determining if A1S was on bonus, getting a party together and then proceeding to run it as many times as possible within that two-hour window. A1S had Faust (striking dummy) and The Oppressor. Because of the disparity in ilvls, the only mechanics Oppressor had were a line AoE and puddles that remained on the field. Practicing a rotation over and over, boring content, no chance to take a break without slowing progress. Sound familiar? This step only took about 7 hours, though.

Before the light step was cluster acquisition with a daily and weekly quest for clusters, eliminating any need to grind for tomes unless you wanted the weapon immediately.

However, before the cluster step was the umbrite/crystal sand step. This required a maximum of 24,000 tomes for umbrite, with no alternative to get the umbrite. What was the efficient method for farming umbrite? Aetherochemical Research Facility until the sight of it made you sick. Each run took around 20 minutes. This step involved a lengthy grind, but it was released In June 2016 - over two years ago.

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Originally Posted by Conando

I feel you’ve yet to adequately explain why mashing out a rotation on trash for hours is enjoyable.

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The relic requires a grind, but it can't include any difficult (requiring skill, not time) content or it would lock out players. That severely limits options. Which part of 800 Alex runs or waiting on FATEs to spawn for beast tribes or doing FATEs (the majority of which are grinding mobs) over and over for crystals or farming the same dungeons for tomes, light or item drops was enjoyable? Any answer is going to include the ability to do other things while grinding and not the content itself.

Chaining/killing mobs in Pagos is braindead content. Chaining/killing mobs in Anemos (fuel for the train) was and is braindead content. Asking for braindead content to be replaced with braindead content when the only difference between the two is that one allows for more afking shows that it's not the quality of the content people really care about.

Same dance, different year:
you guys went overboard with this new relic

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Originally Posted by Orchidias

Agreed, I was looking forward to doing this but when I saw the last step, it was enough to tempt me into unsubbing. Just, no. Not enough content to actually give a care about, and this sort of struggle for something that will be outdated soon enough? I haven't even cleared Thordan EX because no one can get past tethered knights and I'd rather be doing that than this.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

instead to give us grind, can't they work on true content that are really interesting outside raid for the endgame?

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Originally Posted by Doctor-

You people white knighting it realize by the time you are done it is next patch cycle first relic to do this, and its not even something to do its cramming mindless grind that serves no purpose but over glorified glamour at this point

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Originally Posted by Demise

"We don't really care about the game anymore, as seen in previous patches, and we have no intentions to make new things for you to play with that are fun or exciting, so just shut up and grind."

And then everyone did, and told people who thought maybe the devs should put a liiiitle more effort into this to go do something else or quit instead. And then they sat in their queues wondering why they were so long and why there wasn't anyone left playing the game with them.

Grind is one thing. Making it soul crushingly boring and rehashing old content that's already expired is not the way to keep people interested and motivated. I also like having a goal to work towards, but at a certain point it's not just 'well this is boring but at least some parts of it are fun' and more 'why should I keep shoving broken glass under my finger nails when I could stare at a wall or watch paint dry instead.'

Basically, I was ready to put my guns on and get myself dat crit scholar book until I saw that last step. I am perfectly fine with grinding out fates and fighting drop rates and the RNG god. But the last step is just SE torturing us because they can.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

I don't know how anybody can defend these methods when SE could easily give us ways that are at least some what entertaining. Nobody is asking for things to be handed to them.

We just want them to stop catering to the lowest common denomjnator.

It's a RELIC WEAPON. It should be obtained by completing feats of strength. Slaying epic monsters. Completing an epic quest. Exploring me elands.

Not killing endless a mounts of low level trash

THIS IS WHY WE PLAY RPG GAMES

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Asking for braindead content to be replaced with braindead content when the only difference between the two is that one allows for more afking shows that it's not the quality of the content people really care about.

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That's not the only difference between the two though. The other differences have been discussed at length in this very thread.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Probably it. Before Anemos, what was the last relic step that involved a somewhat lengthy grind?

The last step of the previous relic was running hard mode primals. The one before that was a light grind. What was the most efficient method of grinding light? Determining if A1S was on bonus, getting a party together and then proceeding to run it as many times as possible within that two-hour window. A1S had Faust (striking dummy) and The Oppressor. Because of the disparity in ilvls, the only mechanics Oppressor had were a line AoE and puddles that remained on the field. Practicing a rotation over and over, boring content, no chance to take a break without slowing progress. Sound familiar? This step only took about 7 hours, though.

Before the light step was cluster acquisition with a daily and weekly quest for clusters, eliminating any need to grind for tomes unless you wanted the weapon immediately.

However, before the cluster step was the umbrite/crystal sand step. This required a maximum of 24,000 tomes for umbrite, with no alternative to get the umbrite. What was the efficient method for farming umbrite? Aetherochemical Research Facility until the sight of it made you sick. Each run took around 20 minutes. This step involved a lengthy grind, but it was released In June 2016 - over two years ago.

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While those were the most common ways, when I did those I did not run A1S a single time, and maybe ran ARF once. You had the option to grind the same thing over and over like a maniac, but you could also do plenty of other things. And maybe people spamming A1S with a static couldn't take a break, but I could stop whenever I wanted and do everything at my own pace.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

While those were the most common ways, when I did those I did not run A1S a single time, and maybe ran ARF once. You had the option to grind the same thing over and over like a maniac, but you could also do plenty of other things. And maybe people spamming A1S with a static couldn't take a break, but I could stop whenever I wanted and do everything at my own pace.

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Same. I've solely farmed light in PVP and dungeons, which I took at my own pace, did when I wanted, and which didn't require people to be at the same step of the relic I was on - and if they weren't the same level I was, got sync'd down to meet me (or vice versa).

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Probably it. Before Anemos, what was the last relic step that involved a somewhat lengthy grind?
...
The relic requires a grind, but it can't include any difficult (requiring skill, not time) content or it would lock out players. That severely limits options. Which part of 800 Alex runs or waiting on FATEs to spawn for beast tribes or doing FATEs (the majority of which are grinding mobs) over and over for crystals or farming the same dungeons for tomes, light or item drops was enjoyable? Any answer is going to include the ability to do other things while grinding and not the content itself.

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You didn't need to spam A1S for 7 hours, didn't need to run ARF till you were sick of it. Being able to pick your poison and deal with your choice on your own time made the grind bearable- Not enjoyable, per say, but bearable. The grind was as bad as you made it with the options you used to progress.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Chaining/killing mobs in Pagos is braindead content. Chaining/killing mobs in Anemos (fuel for the train) was and is braindead content. Asking for braindead content to be replaced with braindead content when the only difference between the two is that one allows for more afking shows that it's not the quality of the content people really care about.

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The issue with Eureka is that regardless of train or chain the only way to progress is to kill large amounts of X to spawn a bigger X and then go back to killing large amounts of X. Even amongst all the NMs I've fought they're all essentially the exact same fate (kill the big X) with some monster mechanics swapped out. Leves, hamlet defense, hunts, wandering bosses, beast tribes, escort missions, maps, optional quests - theres so many things that could have been alternative means to earning progress in Eureka. The chain could have stayed the "best" way of earning exp/crystals for the people who wanted to throw themselves at it for efficiency's sake and others could have done whatever they fancied and progressed at their own pace. It didn't need to be one monotonous braindead slog.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Leves, hamlet defense, hunts, wandering bosses, beast tribes, escort missions, maps, optional quests

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All valid requests, but they're being overshadowed by "give me back the train".

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

All valid requests, but they're being overshadowed by "give me back the train".

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Because everybody is well aware that SE isn't going to redesign anything. We'll be lucky if there's any extra changes made at all. The train is the easiest thing they can do that will at least make it bearable.

If we're talking an ideal situation, yeah. I'd love to have the whole thing expanded, exploration reasons added, variety, optional quests, etc. I've just looked at SE's track record and decided to ask for the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Once the NM train is back, gameplay will be gone and Pagos will be boring.

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Personal opinion. Not a fact. My opinion is that, if Pagos had the NM Train, it could finally become bearable content.

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Why make Pagos not enjoyable for anyone, just so it is 'tolerable' for some?

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As it stands right now, for the vast majority, Pagos is not enjoyable.

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Wouldn't it make more sense to have varied content for different types of players rather than limiting what people can do?

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Again, as it stands right now, there is no variation in the content within Pagos. The only option is grinding mobs, because the NM train has been nerfed into oblivion. Regardless of what you said, there were small pockets of chain parties in Anemos. I saw people shouting for it; I saw small parties doing it. And, as I said before, I spent enough time in Anemos to get all the weapons, and half of the gear.

Anemos had options (2 of them); Pagos does not.

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It's not like anyone really needs the relic.

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This is a strawman.

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You say I am being selfish but much of the instances in game are not even geared towards someone like me. Do I oppose it? No.

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Uh, what? Unless you're a Savage raider saying most content isn't tuned to your level of difficulty, this is incorrect. Nearly everything in this game is tuned to a more casual player. Even jobs were brought down in difficulty from HW to SB for the sole purpose of making them "easier to play".

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You are not asking to change it a little or even moderately for quality of life purposes. You want the zerg train, in order to get it over with. You are not looking to enjoy it. If you don't like Pagos that much, don't do it. If there aren't enough people like me, SE will take the hint.

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People want options. They don’t want to be forced into doing something they don’t enjoy for something that is designed for every player (Relics are content designed for every player, raiders and non-raiders alike).

You're saying the exact same thing in a way: you don't like the NM Train, because it's boring to you. And you're advocating against giving players a choice in relic content - content designed for everyone to participate in. You clearly aren't looking for the content to be something that can be enjoyed by everyone - you just want it to cater to your specific preferences.

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I've done others relics, but that really shouldn't matter. You guys need to stop with the hostility. I said it earlier that is why you will not see people disagreeing all that much.

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Then you would know how bad Pagos is when you see people asking for unnerfed Unidentifiable steps or Tomestones grinds instead. At least the steps that needed those items had various options for how to obtain them. I personally farmed light for my BRD Anima through farming Extreme primals for the mount—I did very little A1S spam on my first Anima.

I don't really see the hostility you're saying is here. I think you're interpreting disagreeing with your preferred way of fun as hostility. I'm sorry to say that they are not the same. You aren't a representative of some silent majority of players that think Pagos is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The proof of it being poorly received is in all 3 communities, and on various social media - not just here.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

All valid requests, but they're being overshadowed by "give me back the train".

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These same requests were made when Anemos was current. We all see how well SE listened to them.

Here's my 2 cents about it. I want Pagos to be casual and not an annoying grind. Because personally I have multiple other ways to get better weapons right now. I don't see the point of grinding a "relic" weapon for 60 to 80 hours none stop when a reclear of UwU takes me 50 minutes.

That being said, I'm pretty sure not everyone have the time or the interest of progging difficult content like UwU so they get the worst end of it. If I need to spend 300 hours of grind just to gain additional materias on a high-end game weapon for 5 to 6 months because 5.0. I would rather invest it on other games. I do plan to play other games. FFXIV isn't my life and the content they are releasing right now feels pretty bad. It is similar to when they were developping FFXV during 3.x. Maybe the ressources of SE are invested on the remake of FFVII?

Edit - I guess they released the minion app which I didn't download and will likely never will. I'll boycot any sort of microtransaction and that's what that app is doing.

I'd just like some choice in Pagos. You like grinding chains non-stop? Go for it. You like being social while riding the train? Go for it. Both groups can be satisfied. Having the NM train doesn't take away from those who like to grind.

I just want the grinds to be more reasonable. If you only do the challenge logs you should always get a max of 3 lvls unless you are under lvl 10 in which you should get 5 lvls. So if you are leveling from 20 to 35 it should only take you 5 weeks max with just doing the challenge log. It should not take you 2-3 months to get there. I'm only lvl 23, roughly half way to lvl 24, and that's from 2 weeks of challenge logs only. Why the grind SE?

I'm just going to put these slides here to remind you to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

https://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/im...753/3steps.jpg

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◆FINAL FANTASY XIV Hotfixes (Aug. 13, 2018)◆

■The following adjustment has been made.
・Lowered the HP of the monsters that appear in the F.A.T.E.s "Down the Rabbit Hole" and "Curiouser and Curiouser".
*Regarding "The Forbidden Land, Eureka Pagos", adjustments will continue to be implemented in gradual order, through next week and beyond.

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https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...rvkirtnggr.jpg

eureka pagos is really boring,
grind, grind grind and grind.

nerfed too hard fates train is really bad for all the players who have to work,
and light farming is too random, too long and boring .
I hope square enix will not continue that eureka way , anemos was fine but pagos ,...

I think they're having trouble finding the right drop rate for this stuff. Anemos glam and minions were so common that the market value became zero. Pagos went the other way and made things so rare that there are either none listed on the market or a few at 100+ million cost despite the high intensity first week of 80+ hour grinding done by a large amount of people. I did the bunny stuff a dozen times in a row and got the dud prize every time (materia v from bronze chest, materia vi from silver). Haku cluster there are no listings and no sale history on my world marketboard; the mats to craft it are either missing too or a few listed at 85+ million each. Personally have not been lucky enough to receive eye cluster mats, speed belt, happy bunny card yet (I am lv35 with 1 elemental weapon). Have not seen cassie NM spawn ever so the cassie earrings and minion are out of the question; there are not enough people interested to attempt spawning the battle I guess since it requires lv40 enemies but is not related to weapon progress like Louhi.

It has honestly left me a bit disillusioned with the game. I was prepared for Anemos 2 but it's not even as good as Anemos was...

As someone with a reasonably successful career in game design and development. The thing that really strikes me with Pagos is just how many systems have been put in place to hinder and obstruct the player from playing in a manner that came naturally in Anemos. On the flip side of the coin, very little effort (Mutations) was made to encourage players to actually tackle the content in the way that SE envisioned.

This coupled with the near complete lack of rewards vs the effort (primarily time) required has me staggering at Yoshida's complacency towards his playerbase with this content.

The most telling thought for me is to ponder about how successful Pagos would have been if the Relic wasn't gated behind it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The most telling thought for me is to ponder about how successful Pagos would have been if the Relic wasn't gated behind it.

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Spoiler:
Dead on week 2

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

Spoiler:
Dead on week 2

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To be fair, Pagos is already struggling. Numerous images are being posted of dead or recycled instances. So yeah... without the relic, I dare say you're being a bit generous.

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

Spoiler:
Dead on week 2

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Well, if we’re talking about Pagos sans the Relic, let’s be honest here: it wouldn’t even last that long. Given the complaints about how unengaging the content is for the vast majority, it would only be successful to a handful of the playerbase who want to relive old MMO mob-chaining grinds. Without the Relic, the majority of players would not touch Eureka with a ten-foot pole. I’m fairly confident in my assessment of that.

Uggghasd. OK. You know what? To all those folks who wanted content more like Final Fantasy XI? Hope you got what you wanted. Yes, the endgame stuff in FFXI was pretty fun. And the leveling was wasn't -as- bad later in the game's life, but Eureka? THIS STUFF?! THIS is Valkurm Dunes darner/gobbie/crab hunting for 10 levels ALL OVER AGAIN without even the party banter to break up the soul grinding monotony of it all. So yeah, thanks. I hope you got everything you wanted when you made your wish on that CURSED MONKEY PAW of yours.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

To be fair, Pagos is already struggling. Numerous images are being posted of dead or recycled instances. So yeah... without the relic, I dare say you're being a bit generous.

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I mean, I kind of wonder if the whole recycled instance thing isn't just another part of killing the train. If instances aren't truly fresh, it makes the trackers a lot less valuable and further obfuscates NM spawning, making it much less useful to specifically target NM spawns instead of just submitting to the will of SE and settling for mob grinding.

Week 1 - everyone trying it to see what's the buzz. Give it a few more days of people trying to find some secret mechanic that makes the whole process enjoyable, like how discovering the NM train mechanic make Anemos fun for some players. And by second week everyone would have come to the bitter realization that, yes it's Diadem 3.0, you can log out of that side content and never touch it again.

You know what I feel sorry for? All these FATEs and monster's HP, skills, behavior, coding, designing the instance - all these resources poured into a concept that the players have said countless times that they do not enjoy. Yes, it feels lazy as a whole but it's still workhours poured there. It just baffles me why they insist so much on feeding us the diadem over and over again.

I'm one of those who always tries to defend the developers, I was the one who would pour time to gather messages from my server for Yoshi P's bday projects, edit them neatly with screenshots, but I have so much salt over Pagos that I'm restraining from going on negative ramble every time I think about it and the whole of 4.x as experience. I love FF14 but I don't like the direction it's going even one bit. I feel betrayed as a loyal player and only way I can let my voice be heard is with my sub being canceled. Even then it will be just one drop in the ocean. I'm just a number in statistic that doesn't make a difference between, a sprout or a crown icon by the name.

/ramble

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I mean, I kind of wonder if the whole recycled instance thing isn't just another part of killing the train.

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At this point I feel like a better design would've been to get rid of the NMs and give you some other ways to get what they're dropping. There's really no reason to leave in a functionality the developers so vehemently oppose.

i have to wonder why they don't just cut the NM's completely out of the content?

okay i have an idea:

you get quests for your party. party leader accepts them and these quests are nothing else than "grind mob x till a boss of mob x spawns" - and this boss is for your party alone, just like treasure maps or leves, no open world zergfest. when you kill the boss the quest is completed, you get exp, crystals and lockboxes and you can accept a new quest where you have to grind a different mob.

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

You know what I feel sorry for? All these FATEs and monster's HP, skills, behavior, coding, designing the instance - all these resources poured into a concept that the players have said countless times that they do not enjoy. Yes, it feels lazy as a whole but it's still workhours poured there. It just baffles me why they insist so much on feeding us the diadem over and over again.

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I can appreciate this, because I feel much the same way. And not only about Eureka—I frequently look at the overworld and how much detail and time they must have put into the maps, and then lament how empty they are because the developers cannot create interesting overworld content.

However, I don’t think I can defend the developers in some of their decisions they make. Some I can understand and Devil’s Advocate for, but anything surrounding what Pagos has become I cannot defend. Because to do so would also be defending them not really listening to feedback from the playerbase. There was a lot of talk back when Anemos was current on ways to add variety to it (e.g., Daily Quests, adding in DoL/DoH activities, etc.), and NONE of that was even listened to. They couldn’t even put in a Party Level Sync option, which is STILL being requested.

Idk.
/rant

Despite spending so my time in Eureka Anemos so I could fully upgrade my class outfit, after two days of Pagos I was ready to give it up. It was just endless grinding, and it's the kind that discourages going to the bathroom or getting up to get a drink or even type in chat and it's incredibly loud so you can't even listen to podcasts during it. It's horrible. I got to be really social during the Anemos train and I could guess the devs would be irritated that so much of their content was being bypassed by the train, but I didn't think they were THIS angry! We were having fun, having discussions and it was an excellent alternative to the fast paced duty routletts. Now there's almost no distinction since both Pagos and duty roulettes require maximum attention, all for a piece of gear that will be obsolete in a few months anyway. I hope they listen to the feedback and let the train return via patch because this grindfest is going to burn out half the community that got into Eureka in the first place.

This is starting to remind me of the Star Wars Galaxies Jedi debacle. The devs need to think of the player's perspective, not the dev's perspective. If the player ignores some of your content, it isn't to spite you guys, it was because there was a more fun alternative. The train developed, not just because it was more efficient but also because it was more fun and more social. We ended up in a lot of FFXI discussions while waiting for NM to pop. Will that ever happen in Pagos?

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/bjILeJq.png[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

At this point I feel like a better design would've been to get rid of the NMs and give you some other ways to get what they're dropping. There's really no reason to leave in a functionality the developers so vehemently oppose.

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The problem is the whole design revolves around fates, just like Diadem. We tell the devs we don't really like them but they seem completely stuck on the idea that this is the best way to do open-world content (ok, I know Eureka is instanced but hopefully you get what I mean).
When Anemos came out there was a lot of criticism and suggestions of how Eureka could be improved:
People asked for dailies or something similar to Hamlet Defence - we didn't get them
We asked for treasure-hunting and reasons to explore and what did they give us? The bunny fate...

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Originally Posted by Solarra

The problem is the whole design revolves around fates, just like Diadem.

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I didn't run Diadem much but the few times I was in it it was FATE bouncing. And with a party of friends, it was actually fun. That's why Anemos was anywhere between tolerable and fun for a lot of people.
Pagos rejects the concepts of NMs with how the devs went about it. You no longer have the one or two NMs no one can be bothered with spawning while the other NMs get spawned anywhere else (Pazuzu was the only NM in that area I saw being reliably spawned, and I've no idea if that's still the case given you can get his feathers elsewhere now). Instead, you're lucky to see an NM spawn at all. Some NMs seemingly can't be spawned within a single lockout. That's not a design that revolves around FATEs, that's a design that revolves around the mindless grind and occasionally, maybe, gives you an NM for your trouble.

An fc mate of mine who loved the social interactions in Anemos went into Pagos today. Not half an hour later he was out, swearing off the content and reconsidering his sub in one fell swoop. SB has been meh to him so far with Anemos actually being a highlight. Pagos wrecked that.

Rewards: not worth it.
Gameplay: not worth it.
Social interactions: severely hindered.


What you get in Pagos: Carpal tunnel, snow blindness and thoughts about throwing yourself off that cliff.

After the Yokai, Diadem and Anemos FATE spam, I wouldn't have thought I'd say this but, I want the FATEs back.

It really sucks to work long hours, the 2-3 hours I can log in I see maybe only 2 NM's. 4 if I'm lucky. I then go to sleep feeling like I've made no progress at all and wondered why in the world I wasted my time. And the majority of the JP players more than a week later are still gathered at the starting point waiting for a train to start, so it's a pain to find a group to do any grinding.

Oh well it's ok. Just me and sooo many others will be sporting 355 weapons for 4.4. I might be able to get 1 or 2 tome weapons in time (I don't raid).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Pagos rejects the concepts of NMs with how the devs went about it... you're lucky to see an NM spawn at all.

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Point taken.
What I was trying to get at is that Pagos is basically the same design as Anemos only with a severe nerf to the rate of NM spawns introduced as a way of derailing the train. That isn't going to work; take out the NMs (or reduce them as they have) and there's nothing left except grind, which only a very small proportion of players seem to enjoy. If the train was such a bad thing that it had to be countered, then the devs needed to come up with alternative ways for people to play and they haven't done that.

I really can't see what harm the train did personally, it had people playing together and co-operating and it also helped low-level players catch up. It feels to me that the devs are either out of ideas or on such a tight schedule that only minimal tweaks can be made to content after release. Their solution to the train was relatively quick and easy to implement, but it has caused much bigger problems than the one it was meant to solve.

Pagos is really deconstructive.

People wont raise someone who is like a 30s run away from them because they dont want to break the chain. People dont talk. If you arent X level then you cant join Y group.

Anemos was so friendly, however Pagos is pretty much designed to be a toxic place. In Anemos people would break from the train to come raise you, people would crack jokes and chat in shout chat. Everyone is friendly there and having fun.

Pagos on the other hand is just a chain gang. Barely anyone speaks in shout chat.

The fact that there are two more zones after this, I just hope it gets better.

The funny thing is this content is suppose to be geared towards the casual playerbase, and there is nothing casual about Pagos

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Point taken.

I really can't see what harm the train did personally, it had people playing together and co-operating and it also helped low-level players catch up. It feels to me that the devs are either out of ideas or on such a tight schedule that only minimal tweaks can be made to content after release. Their solution to the train was relatively quick and easy to implement, but it has caused much bigger problems than the one it was meant to solve.

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I'm sure the devs got pissed because entire sections of the Eureka Amenos map and most of the mobs remained entirely untouched because the train allowed players to bypassed the mob grinding all together, so thought they'd FORCE us to get acquainted with each individual mob in Pagos intimately and experience the content they worked so hard to make, even if they had to make the player miserable to do it. Maybe it's revenge, I dunno. They probably saw the train as an exploit like Destiny's loot cave.
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