Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by winsock

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Do you have any evidence that "John" isn't being lazy? No, you don't. You keep striving to make a point by trying to come to the defense of people who play poorly by using nothing but hypotheticals, you can't accuse people of having no evidence when you are doing the exact same thing, basing every single case of someone playing poorly by pulling the "You don't know their situation" card. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Like Hyomin already mentioned, If you have a level 70 tank and have no idea how to hold hate, use cooldowns properly and know the mechanics of the bosses you do not get a "get out of jail free" card for poor performance and inconveniencing your group just because you happen to be the level of the content you are doing. Your entire argument is that every single person in every single dungeon that you end up with gets a free pass regardless of how poorly they play just because we don't know that players life story and should therefor make the entire group suffer poor and lazy performance based on nothing but hypotheticals.

I'm all for giving players the benefit of the doubt, especially when i know they are new, but no one in their sane mind is going to sit there, dungeon after dungeon suffering in silence while the entire run falls apart all due to your argument of "You shouldn't judge or assume why this player is playing this way because you don't know them or their circumstances"

I cannot even begin to fathom how much worse runs would be if we never removed poor players that are proving to be detrimental to group progress all because of "You don't know their story" and just let everything spiral into chaos because you don't want to offend them by assuming anything about them or their playstyle. Please just stop, this entire thing is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I disagree. We are pushing this conversation more and more into the abstract (and honestly i think this is becoming a pretty interesting discussion as it becomes more abstract). To push it further, do circumstances matter at all?

John is a level 70 tank and queues for sastasha. It's his first time tanking a dungeon.
Jane is a level 15 tank and queues for sastasha. It's her first time tanking a dungeon.

For all intents and purposes, assume they are equally terrible. How should they be treated?

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No, you can not abstract this. Its impossible. Sastasha as an entry level dungeon will always provide a different challenge than a high level dungeon, seeing as how the entry level dungeon has simpler mechanics and the player has to deal with less skills. You literally cannot compare these two, not even in an abstract way.

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Originally Posted by winsock

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug.

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I'm sorry but no, I call complete rubbish on your stance here.

I'm a career healer if there ever was one and have almost exclusively healed in raids and PvP across various MMOs going back 20 years.

Rather handily, I've also got PLD at 70, likely because I got drunk, lost a bet or some such. Unsurprisingly but also rather neatly for this conversation at hand, I've got close to zero idea how the job is meant to be played at 70, I understand it's ARR/HW mechanics fairly well primarily through it simply not having any ;) Yet despite this complete lack of experience or any real understanding of how to play the job, I can quite happily take it into expert and hold agro absolutely fine even if my DPS is somewhere between mediocre and abysmal. Why? Because I glanced over the tooltips and looked at which buttons say 'Increases enmity'.

That is literally all 'John' needs to do to be able to do his core role in the current crop of level 70 dungeons, when even that standard can't be met then I'm really struggling to think of any circumstances that would legitimately excuse them beyond simply being too young to grasp the concepts going around them (And in that case, what are they even doing playing this game?).

I'm definitely interested to hear if there are any circumstances that could prevent someone from simply hitting flash a bunch of times. And no, 'not knowing any better' isn't a valid answer IMHO, you don't have to enter a dungeon to read tooltips.

Oh and your Sastasha example is ironic, because frankly holding agro of a decent and better geared DPS there can actually be pretty challenging.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

They should be assisted.

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Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Technically speaking, it's still inconsiderate (thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others). They could have thought it out better, researched more, practice more, etc to not inconvenience their party members.

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There is a huge difference from this scenario you’re now presenting, and your previous one of a level 70 tank that doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content wanting to learn, and assuming people would be just as accommodating.

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I didn't say john was assuming the party would be accommodating or that he was queuing with the intent of learning. John queued because he thought he knew how to play and since he is level 70, he queued for a 70 dungeon. How did you come to the conclusion that he queued with the intention of learning from an accommodating party? You couldnt have known. If you couldn't know johns circumstances, you must have made them up. And if the circumstances were just dreamt up in your imagination, how can you hold john accountable? He never did the things you are accusing him of.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Technically speaking, it's still inconsiderate (thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others). They could have thought it out better, researched more, practice more, etc to not inconvenience their party members.

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Here's your issue. You changed the dungeon in question to sastasha. Sastasha is the first dungeon, and to be completely honest, I expect literally 3 afk's if I go in there. Why? It's the first dungeon, people who'd been playing for maybe a day get into there. My example in Snowcloak, I'm getting irritated because the tank can't hold threat. I had a Sastasha in leveling roulette yesterday on my exact same job, with a similar case of pulling off the tank. Wanna know what I did differently? I assisted the player, explaining what can help them out. By the end of the dungeon, the player had the boss and could do his job.

Now if level 15 Jimmy could do it, why can't level 70 John? If he just listens in Sastasha he'll learn a lot.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Here's your issue. You changed the dungeon in question to sastasha.

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What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

I think its great you assisted the player in sastasha. I agree people who refuse to work with the party should be kicked (for example if you ask someone to use tank stance and flash but they refuse). What is the issue with assisting someone in say, Ala Mhigo instead of Sastasha if they need help? It's really not a big deal is it?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

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You can’t use that argument against me, and you know it.

The prior statement was made when you were talking about level 70 content. The second scenario is level 15 content. Different arguments apply because the context is entirely different. There is a huge difference between a tank who doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content and level 15 content. The latter is clearly designed as entry-level, and is more adequate for both learning and teaching than level-cap, “expert” content.

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I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

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Tanking mobs in the overworld and tanking them in dungeons are entirely different.

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I didn't say john was assuming the party would be accommodating or that he was queuing with the intent of learning. John queued because he thought he knew how to play and since he is level 70, he queued for a 70 dungeon. How did you come to the conclusion that he queued with the intention of learning from an accommodating party? You couldnt have known. If you couldn't know johns circumstances, you must have made them up. And if the circumstances were just dreamt up in your imagination, how can you hold john accountable? He never did the things you are accusing him of.

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I can hold John accountable because he came into level 70 content and could not perform the very basics of his job description regardless of his “circumstances”. Again, there is a HUGE different between John in level 15 content and John in level 70 content.

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Originally Posted by winsock

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

I think its great you assisted the player in sastasha. I agree people who refuse to work with the party should be kicked (for example if you ask someone to use tank stance and flash but they refuse). What is the issue with assisting someone in say, Ala Mhigo instead of Sastasha if they need help? It's really not a big deal is it?

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The difference is, you shouldn’t be teaching a PLD how Flash works in Ala Mhigo. If they are a level 70 PLD and don’t know how Flash functions after playing the job for 70 levels (or even just 10 if you want to assume maybe they jumped the job), then there is a huge problem there.

You shouldn’t be teaching someone the VERY BASICS OF THEIR ROLE at endgame.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I can hold John accountable because he came into level 70 content and could not perform the very basics of his job description regardless of his “circumstances”. Again, there is a HUGE different between John in level 15 content and John in level 70 content.

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Could you elaborate on this huge difference?
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in sastasha, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: run into a group and use flash X times.
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in Ala Mhigo, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: keep shield oath activated, run into a group, and use flash X times.

Is mentioning shield oath such an inconvenience that you cant be bothered to assist people after level 30?

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Originally Posted by winsock

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

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Actually this is my other issue now that you brought it up. Dungeons marked 'expert' have to be made numbingly easy because of people like John, in your examples, that can't grasp such basic things.

Imagine how much cooler our experts could go if people learned how to press flash?

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Originally Posted by winsock

If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in sastasha, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: run into a group and use flash X times.
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in Ala Mhigo, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: keep shield oath activated, run into a group, and use flash X times.

Is mentioning shield oath such an inconvenience that you cant be bothered to assist people after level 70?

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First off, fixed that for you, since you called Ala Mhigo a level 30 dungeon.

Second of all, done that. Got called a c*nt that needs a life. Expert dungeons are so fun.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Could you elaborate on this huge difference?
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in sastasha, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: run into a group and use flash X times.
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in Ala Mhigo, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: keep shield oath activated, run into a group, and use flash X times.

Is mentioning shield oath such an inconvenience that you cant be bothered to assist people after level 30?

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Why should I be teaching a level 70 tank the importance of their tank stance? Or their cooldowns? Or their enmity combo? Shouldn’t they already have learned how those work after playing the job for 70 levels?

When you’re running endgame content, people are going to expect you to know how to perform your job/role at a level 70 level. And this is for all roles—I shouldn’t have to teach healers the importance of using HoTs or their stronger heals at level 70. I shouldn’t have to teach DPS how to use a basic AOE rotation or basic 1-2-3. The time to ask for basic levels of help is not at level 70.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Actually this is my other issue now that you brought it up. Dungeons marked 'expert' have to be made numbingly easy because of people like John, in your examples, that can't grasp such basic things.

Imagine how much cooler our experts could go if people learned how to press flash?



First off, fixed that for you, since you called Ala Mhigo a level 30 dungeon.

Second of all, done that. Got called a c*nt that needs a life. Expert dungeons are so fun.

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The level 30 was a reference to shield oath, not the dungeon.

I am by no means excusing the behavior of people to resort to name calling and such, but are you really being fair here? Player A is a jerk and is mean to you, so you take it out on player B?

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Originally Posted by winsock

I am by no means excusing the behavior of people to resort to name calling and such, but are you really being fair here? Player A is a jerk and is mean to you, so you take it out on player B?

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The reason this thread was made was because of people who actively ignore or harass those who put advice in a kind and helpful way. Kindly mentioning shield oath gets me harassed. Kindly mentioning fire gets me harassed. I made the thread to get the constantly building steam off before I took it out on someone who didn't deserve it.

Please look at my original post again, or do I gotta hold your hand to it as well?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Why should I be teaching a level 70 tank the importance of their tank stance? Or their cooldowns? Or their enmity combo? Shouldn’t they already have learned how those work after playing the job for 70 levels?

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Why should you be assisting those at level 15? They should also understand those things right? (save tank stance cause they dont have it yet)

What makes this situation so different? You mentioned earlier you were willing to assist this "John", the level 70 tank, in sastasha. So obviously, his level isnt your issue. The advice that you're going to give this player in sastasha is going to be extemely similar to the advice you would give this player in Ala Mhigo, save maybe the mention of tank stance.

What's the big deal? is the effort needed to mention tank stance such a deal breaker that you cant be bothered to assist John in the slightest? Is mention tank stance the straw that breaks the camel's back?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Why should you be assisting those at level 15? They should also understand those things right? (save tank stance cause they dont have it yet)

What makes this situation so different? You mentioned earlier you were willing to assist this "John", the level 70 tank, in sastasha. So obviously, his level isnt your issue. The advice that you're going to give this player in sastasha is going to be extemely similar to the advice you would give this player in Ala Mhigo, save maybe the mention of tank stance.

What's the big deal? is the effort needed to mention tank stance such a deal breaker that you cant be bothered to assist John in the slightest? Is mention tank stance the straw that breaks the camel's back?

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The difference is simple, and I am actually a bit shocked that you dont see it.
Sastasha is the first dungeon of the game. Its literally training wheels for group content. If you go there voluntarily, it is because you are new. If I get sastasha in roulette, I expect sprouts. If I enter a level 70 dungeon, I expect people to have at least played through all of the Stormblood story, which also includes at least 4 dungeons that are mandatory, giving them time to learn.

I really dont understand your way of thinking, winsock, you are currently being deliberately agressive and unrealistic in the arguments that you bring that it is hard to take them serious.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Why should you be assisting those at level 15? They should also understand those things right? (save tank stance cause they dont have it yet)

What makes this situation so different? You mentioned earlier you were willing to assist this "John", the level 70 tank, in sastasha. So obviously, his level isnt your issue. The advice that you're going to give this player in sastasha is going to be extemely similar to the advice you would give this player in Ala Mhigo, save maybe the mention of tank stance.

What's the big deal? is the effort needed to mention tank stance such a deal breaker that you cant be bothered to assist John in the slightest? Is mention tank stance the straw that breaks the camel's back?

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There is literally no point in arguing with you further. The difference between assisting someone in Sastasha with the basics and assisting someone in Ala Mhigo with the basics is that one is entry-level content, the other is end-game/level-capped content. Someone at level cap should know the basics by that point. If they don’t, the place to learn is not in level 70 content.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I gotta hold your hand to it as well?

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I'm not being aggressive toward you, even sided with you about the person who was mean to you. I'm not telling you how to act, just pointing out that you're judging people based on actions they've never taken. Then you start talking down to me, show disrespect, and engage in the very behavior you seem to be so opposed to.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Why should you be assisting those at level 15? They should also understand those things right? (save tank stance cause they dont have it yet)

What makes this situation so different? You mentioned earlier you were willing to assist this "John", the level 70 tank, in sastasha. So obviously, his level isnt your issue. The advice that you're going to give this player in sastasha is going to be extemely similar to the advice you would give this player in Ala Mhigo, save maybe the mention of tank stance.

What's the big deal? is the effort needed to mention tank stance such a deal breaker that you cant be bothered to assist John in the slightest? Is mention tank stance the straw that breaks the camel's back?

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Here, let me help a bit here.

We aren't saying we won't mention tank stance or enmity abilities. We're saying we shouldn't need to. Sastasha is different for a simple reason, it's early dungeons, where players are still figuring things out. In fact, before reaching level 15 and getting into Sastasha, the only place you'd get any practice is Guildhests, which honestly do not do any amount of help (Specially when mar doesn't even get overpower yet for that.)

Our point is that the game, not just the player, should be teaching and enforcing these. Even IF Johny boy you like to talk about so much didn't do a single dungeon to get 70 PLD, he's bound to have run into plenty of tanks on his way through the story. Surely he must have wondered how a tank holds threat, right? Wouldn't that make him curious? He doesn't go, "Why do I still have Rage of Halone if Royal Authority is more damage?"

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Originally Posted by winsock

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Originally Posted by ovIm

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The expectation isn't unreasonable. You can't enter level 70 dungeons without doing SB story first and those have dungeons you must do before hand, even if you use a jump potion.

Tbqh, I really expect the worst out of each run I do in DF. The skill range of players varies so wildly that you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you have even reasonable expectations of people. I've learned in life that people are generally stupid, at their jobs irl and at video games. So I always expect the worse and it's always a nice experience when it doesn't turn out that way.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I'm not being aggressive toward you, even sided with you about the person who was mean to you. I'm not telling you how to act, just pointing out that you're judging people based on actions they've never taken. Then you start talking down to me, show disrespect, and engage in the very behavior you seem to be so opposed to.

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Maybe if you didn't make disingenuous arguments based purely on hypotheticals then people wouldn't be getting frustrated with you. No one should have to teach someone who's in level 70 content how to do the bare bones basics of their job, period. The reason they're bad doesn't matter, because the end result is the same: you're wasting 3 other random people's time. Practice on a dummy. Look up a guide. Watch a video. Do SOMETHING to show that you put in a modicum of effort before you jumped straight into content you have no business being in.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Maybe if you didn't make disingenuous arguments based purely on hypotheticals then people wouldn't be getting frustrated with you.

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^^^^^^^^^^^

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

No one should have to teach someone who's in level 70 content how to do the bare bones basics of their job, period.

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No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

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The reason they're bad doesn't matter, because the end result is the same: you're wasting 3 other random people's time.

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And technically, it's inconsiderate for them to queue and not know how to play. I'd agree with that. Is it fair to say that its a matter of principle?

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

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Originally Posted by winsock

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.
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No one is required to help others, however when you run content with others you are required to do basic.

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Originally Posted by winsock

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

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Actually, if I wanna be technical here, anyone that's signed up for mentor's gotta. Also, if the person's inability to press more than butcher block prevents progress, I either explain to them how to play, or kick without a word, and we all know how much people like to assume silent kicks are about third party stuff...

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

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I explain it, very simply, I pretend I'm talking to a 5 year old. If they refuse, I throw a kick. If they harass me for it, I throw a report. my issue is that people tend to go silent and ignore it, or harass me for it, rather than take the advice. These players should have not been capable of reaching later parts of the game, but they do, because someone can carry them through it. I don't need great. I don't even need good. I just want people that can play their role at a basic understanding by the time they reach content that is meant to demand it. Sastasha doesn't demand it. Sastasha's built with the expectation 4 people don't know how to play. Dungeons by later on should be expecting that the player has learned since Sastasha though.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I'll be blunt. I don't care.

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/micdrop

/10char

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Originally Posted by winsock

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

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To use an example earlier in the thread; say you join a friend's soccer game without knowing anything about how to play soccer. You run around disorganized, kick the ball wherever you want, pick it up with your hands, etc. because you don't know what's acceptable, what's expected, and you never bothered to take the time to figure it out before joining.If your friend and his buddies told you to stop and go home because they actually wanna try to have a game of soccer, are they in the wrong? Or are they trying to partake in an organized team-based activity, where a group of people work together to achieve a common goal (winning)? Is it their responsibility to stop everything, teach you the bare basics of soccer, help you learn how to kick the ball, when to pass, where to be, etc? Or should it have been on you to at least learn how the game is played at a base level, before jumping in?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

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Me personally? I never ever ever risk a df tank, ever. As a career tank who has plenty of friends to run things with, I never have to. If I wasn't in this situation though, with a tank who had no clue how to keep aggro on trash mobs? I'd offer advice at first, then leave if it isn't taken. I have plenty of other things I'd rather do than waste my time in a dungeon with someone who hasn't bothered to learn how to do the bare basics.

For me it's a matter of courtesy. I don't want to waste other people's time, so I practice, learn, and actively try to get better. What makes it ok for them to waste my time? Where is their sense of common courtesy? Yes it's "just a game", but I can guarantee you that no one wants to spend 45 minutes in an expert roulette. It's simple.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

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I want to address some of the things that you said that I do agree with. Things like holding mentors to higher standards and:
"I explain it, very simply, I pretend I'm talking to a 5 year old. If they refuse, I throw a kick. If they harass me for it, I throw a report."

Personally, I agree with this approach. For example, if the you or the party were to request the tank use tank stance and flash, but the tank refuses. In this scenario, they are unwilling to work as a team, and you can hold them accountable for their unwillingness with a kick. You have actual evidence as to what they've done in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, this is solid.

Up to this point at the very least, I think we are more or less on the same page. Does your opinion change by expert roulette? My doesn't and it is simply because, I dont see much difference in what the content demands at a minimum, and i cannot prove they know better.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Up to this point at the very least, I think we are more or less on the same page. Does your opinion change by expert roulette? My doesn't and it is simply because, I dont see much difference what the content demands at a minimum, and i cannot prove they should know better.

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I don't think most of the people you're debating vary from this by much either, even in expert roulette.

I think you start to see standards actually enforced when you get into content with enrage timers like EX and Savage - at that point you can't get by just throwing out some basic rotation advice because you actually need the majority of the group paying attention and doing alright.

It's crazy how huge this thread has become when there is hardly a disagreement involved.

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Originally Posted by winsock

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.
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When did I say anything about how much dungeon experience someone has? That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

You either didn't read my post, or you simply have zero understanding of what my point is.

Also, to use your own words, I think "you're making quite the stretch" using that hypothetical of a tank getting to level 70 without doing a single dungeon. It can be done, but it simply isn't how the game directs you to play and is also an extremely inefficient way to level so it is a very unlikely hypothetical in the first place. You're reaching too far out of the norm.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Is it so much to ask for actual evidence before you go accusing people of things?

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To be fair I honestly think it is better to assume someone is lazy rather than just assume they are too unintelligent to know they need to study the basics of their job. You seem to advocate that John is level 70, he never did any dungeons on tank, but the hypothetical John isn't intelligent enough to realize he needs to practice tank from the beginner dungeons instead of jumping into end game dungeons.

So yeah, in my opinion, your assumption about the hypothetical John is is worse than mine. You are assuming he isn't intelligent enough to realize he needs to practice or study the basics of dungeon tanking before going into end game tanking, while I just assume he was too lazy to bother.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Personally, I agree with this approach. For example, if the you or the party were to request the tank use tank stance and flash, but the tank refuses. In this scenario, they are unwilling to work as a team, and you can hold them accountable for their unwillingness with a kick. You have actual evidence as to what they've done in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, this is solid.

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If it's the reason he's losing threat and refuses to fix it, then yes, we're on the same page.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Also, to use your own words, I think "you're making quite the stretch" using that hypothetical of a tank getting to level 70 without doing a single dungeon.

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This hypothetical is based in reality. I knew someone who had max level tanks who fit this description.

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To be fair I honestly think it is better to assume someone is lazy rather than just assume they are too unintelligent to know they need to study the basics of their job.

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You say "to be fair", but what is fair about accusing someone of laziness with no evidence of laziness? You accuse of foul play based purely on evidence in your imagination.

If you assume they do not know any better, provide instructions such as using flash, etc, and they refuse to follow, you can kick them for their unwillingness to work with the party, regardless of their skill/knowledge/motivation. In other words, your kick is backed by evidence.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Me personally? I never ever ever risk a df tank, ever.

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^ I agree with your actions here and actually made a similar argument in the thread pages ago.

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I'd offer advice at first, then leave if it isn't taken.

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Again, I agree.

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What makes it ok for them to waste my time?

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It's not acceptable, but I think we both agree it's tolerable. You mentioned that hypothetically if you got a bad tank in a pug, you would offer advice, then leave if they refused. You are willing to tolerate performance below the minimum, so long as they are willing to take advice.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You say "to be fair", but what is fair about accusing someone of laziness with no evidence of laziness? You accuse of foul play based purely on evidence in your imagination.

If you assume they do not know any better, provide instructions such as using flash, etc, and they refuse to follow, you can kick them for their unwillingness to work with the party, regardless of their skill/knowledge/motivation. In other words, your kick is backed by evidence.

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Do I do that? That's a pretty big assumption right there. I don't believe you've seen me in-game to know how I interact with others.

Should I explain this point by point?

1. You said you cannot tell if someone is being lazy.

2. I said yes you can due to certain factors and explained a PLD65 who had DRK70 and multiple other jobs at 70 not knowing how to use Flash. I also clarified I tried to help this PLD and they ignored me. That is all the evidence I need to see they are lazy.

3. Then you said level cannot determine dungeon experience, which is true? I never said it does, so I am assuming you don't understand or didn't read at this point.

4. Since you learn Flash at level 6, the player should be looking at and reading their tooltips when they learn abilities, if they don't understand what it means they have the responsibility to find help. When I offered advice to that PLD65 just to use Flash a couple of times in order to hold hate and they ignored me and never used it still.

What excuse is there for a PLD65 to not know what Flash, a level 6 skill, does or how to use it? <----maybe answer my question this time? What excuse is there? You don't need to do dungeons to read your job's tooltips, or use the novice hall, or ask fellow players for help, or lookup guides on your job, or get information on how your job abilities work from any source. So dungeon experience has nothing to do with it.

So you keep saying you need to try to help them, but I mentioned I did. They ignored me. Your assumption that they "don't know any better" is basically saying they lack common sense or lack intelligence to help themselves. Personally I'd prefer someone assumed I was lazy instead of assuming I was simply unintelligent. Maybe that is just my personal preference though, but lazy is way less insulting.

You do realize you keep accusing me of things right? You accused me of going on a witch hunt, yet I only posted one example? I mean...you're accusing me of going around claiming everyone is lazy because I say so.. Where is your evidence that I am doing that? Please show me....or is it only in your imagination?

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Originally Posted by Miste

I am not saying every situation is people being lazy, but it is easy to tell laziness when you get ignored when trying to help, or told to be quiet (albeit not that nicely), or the infamous "it's my sub I play how I want", those are all indicators they are just being lazy and don't want to learn.

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I mean you do realize your statements are hypocritical right? Because you make assumptions that the player "doesn't know any better" which means you assume they lack common sense or intelligence. Why are you acting like my one example where I had multiple kinds of evidence to form my opinion is so wrong? What's fair about accusing people of being unintelligent or "not knowing any better"?

I mean if you can explain to me why that PLD65 with DRK70 and multiple other 70 jobs is not lazy I'll listen?

Keep in mind this was a 50+ dungeon, multiple tanks 65+, multiple jobs 70
I offered help by instructing them to use Flash so they wouldn't lose hate on 2/3 of the mobs
They knew fluent English since they made idle chit chat with one of the DPS so it was not a communication barrier, but they ignored me and stayed silent when I spoke to them and still never used Flash.

So they never attempted to take the advice or ask any questions back to me about it they just let me, the healer, keep having to struggle to heal everyone while tanking 2/3 of the mobs in the pull.

Explain to me how that PLD65 isn't lazy then if you feel I am just witch hunting (accusing someone of witch hunting just because of one example used in a forum to make a point is a new thing to me I thought witch hunt means you basically attack anyone and everyone, but hey its your accusation, not mine)

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Originally Posted by winsock

It's not acceptable, but I think we both agree it's tolerable. You mentioned that hypothetically if you got a bad tank in a pug, you would offer advice, then leave if they refused. You are willing to tolerate performance below the minimum, so long as they are willing to take advice.

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At times, we have to tolerate a lot of things in life that we shouldn't have to. It doesn't make it ok, and it sure doesn't mean that we should be playing semantics in order to defend it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I mean you do realize your statements are hypocritical right? Because you make assumptions that the player "doesn't know any better" which means you assume they lack common sense or intelligence. Why are you acting like my one example where I had multiple kinds of evidence to form my opinion is so wrong? What's fair about accusing people of being unintelligent or "not knowing any better"?

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This is why I was disagreeing with Winsock. We are trying to help. We don't just isntantly say the person's lazy. And as I mentioned in another post, I've gotten to a point where, if I'm giving advice, I have to assume the person is 5 years old and probably doesn't know any words that have more than five characters.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

This is why I was disagreeing with Winsock. We are trying to help. We don't just isntantly say the person's lazy.

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I honestly believe he didn't actually read my post before claiming I was witch hunting, you know, to know I attempted to help the PLD65 before determining that they were indeed just being lazy. There were multiple kinds of "evidence" I was using to form my opinion on that particular situation, yet he keeps claiming I wasn't using any evidence and keeps saying we need to try to help people first, but I already said I tried to help that tank...so yeah pretty sure he just didn't read it.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

It's not that the role scares me, I just suck at it lol. I don't want to put other people through my bad play. So I just avoid playing tank in this game in general. Tanking has never clicked with me. Usually I play DPS in all mmosI play. However, I discovered I sucked playing DPS in this game which I figured that out without a parser fyi, SSS revealed that I cant do dps rotations very well. Even after posting a vid and trying out all the advice I was given, I just did not improve at all so I'm like welp, not playing DPS anymore (and I was playing RDM no less, a class apparently that is so easy no one should be having issues with so I felt rather stupid and discouraged). Now imagine how bad I would be as a tank where I know I suck so badly that I would rather I get kicked. lmao yeah it would be horrible and no way am I gonna put other people through that. I'm too considerate for that.

WHM for me is the best job in the world, I feel relaxed, its comfy af and all I have to do is heal and then throw rocks at things when no one needs healed. And if no one dies during the run or the tank is not taking damage because of damage mitigation tools that I like to use (Divine Benison and holy are nice for this :3 ) then I know I'm succeeding :3

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I wonder....

When you press buttons, are you pressing them before the CD is ready? or reacting to it after it is ready? With human reaction delay and the input delay of this game, you REALLY, REALLY need to hit them before they light up. You need to have all your abilities to be consistently dark.

Guessing this rdm is a different character... ummm

So lets say you start off with jolt, then you cast thunder or stone, once you are in CD, thats when you hit your OCDs like Fleche and Contre Sixte. Some people can only use 1 OGCD some can use 2, it depends on your ping, then you use jolt/ fire/aero (depending on proc) then use another OGCD. By the time you have 40-50 mana of each color, ALL of your OGCDs should be black and on recast, then when you use Manafication, that resets Corps-a-corps etc then start your melee combo.

For SSS dummies gear is a big factor too, I think you need 310 with good melds to do the first savage/ extreme ones.

Tanking is the same way. For example, someone talking to me took their 70 PLD to help a friend queue for trials. On ramuh, She charged in without an oath smashing all her CDs and OGCDs (the tanks where 2 PLD) My friend had no oath on for about 3 CDs and 2 OGCD, she had rank A enmity over the shield oath pld when she put sword oath on. (Both where ilevel sync) The shield oath PLD even tried to provoke off the sword oath one, and she kept taking enmity back from simply keeping all her CDs and OGCDs on cool down. You have to know what to use next, and do the rotations before you execute them. Eventually the shield oath PLD gave up leaving my friend to tank in sword oath.

But ya holding aoe hate is as simply as hitting flash flash flash and have the monsters face away from the group, very simple. The only time things get messy has to do with yet again with the game delay. Just because they look like they are in range on your screen, does not mean that is how the server is reading their positions. So it is very easy to miss monsters with flash/overpower/unleash (depending what tank you are referring to). Just be aware of countering that (be willing run back and make sure you have everything, most people do not bother do this, and the prime reason you see bad things with randoms a lot) and you be fine.

The apologists/enablers of said bad players, is the real problem. We all pay money to play this game..properly. I don't spend money to repeatedly get tossed in with bad players who leave on wipe, and or don't heal correctly. Everything is goal oriented, if I want to have mindless fun, I'll fish or craft. There's outlets for that in the game. But when I'm in a dungeon, I want two things, items, and cohesive play.

What I find amusing, not from just this thread but also from the many others about the topic, is you would be led to believe people are being kicked from parties all the time due to awful play, and that advice is frequently being given for others to improve. I rarely ever see this occur in game, not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

not to mention the number of truly bad players is minimal.

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I did expert as whm, was 400 below first dps and 200 higher than second. I was tank today, samurai did 800 lower than me. This is 2 out of 2 experts btw. So not it's not ''minimal''

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I did expert as whm, was 400 below first dps and 200 higher than second. I was tank today, samurai did 800 lower than me. This is 2 out of 2 experts btw. So not it's not ''minimal''

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I don't use a dps meter and main a healer