Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Like I said, being noticed Single Targetting to control aggro isn't the issue; that changes nothing.

Interesting note on enmity generation, though; I must just be running into a lot of DPS who don't AoE well, or at all.

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Non AoE dps is another issue that plagues the roulette.

Just got out of a Bismarck where the healers had to rescue a DPS onto Bismarck's back almost on cooldown because said DPS wasn't understanding the prompts in chat about where they needed to be to actually damage it. Or a recent Mhach run where the healers had to also rescue people into the zombie puddles to save MP on raises. While rescue can be abused, by and large I mostly see it being used to help rather than to hurt.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Non AoE dps is another issue that plagues the roulette.

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They* should just make every skill in the game do aoe (splash damage), streamline it, remove some skill bloat. Remember grasping the concept of using a separate skill for "aoe" in the first place is something many players cannot understand. :)

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

They* should just make every skill in the game do aoe (splash damage), streamline it, remove some skill bloat. Remember grasping the concept of using a separate skill for "aoe" in the first place is something many players cannot understand. :)

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I could see that, though gasp people would complain about the simplification of the game.

Though honestly the amount of players that as you said are unable to understand the concept of AoE skills, I think they game has to be made easier.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Oh, and as kind of a way to cap this off, I think I've come up with my retaliation strategy.

So, if a Healer ever Rescue pulls me into mobs I'll pick up the adds and tank them normally. Then once we get to the point where the pull can be easily managed without the healers assistance, I'll Shirk kill him. No wipe, minimal inconvenience to everyone else; this feels solid.

Then as the healer is walking back he'll have plenty of time to politely request larger pulls, at which point I'll politely agree to do them, and everyone lives happily ever after... The End.

Pretty great, right?

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Now that this convo have turn into a theorycrafting mess of how to kill healers I'm going to take my leave, I'd only add that:

1) Killing them would only reset their Rescue CD allowing them to do it again if it was truly a troll instead of a rescue with good intentions

2) You underestimate the power of healing. A good healer will always be able to carry a bad tank. A good tank can never carry a bad healer.

Ofc this is talking about large pulls. Assuming you've already established enmity on the first crowd of mobs before healers' rescue pull you to the next. Odds are, I'll be able to keep my self topped off if im tanking 3 adds. Trust me, being petty isn't something u want to do. Two can play the game.

Be an adult about it and just tell them to not do it, otherwise you're only contributing to the problem.

This skill is awesome, didn't even know it was there! :)

As a new player, I benefited from it when a healer pulled me out right before a raid boss ("normal" mode) did an attack (it was ARR alliance raid, I think it was boss Phlegethon). I made sure to thank him for literally pulling me out of the fire.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Seriously, just make it a toggle. That way premades can use it to cheese mechanics, or whatever, friends can goof around with it, and the rest of us won't have to deal with it in randoms.

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I think that's a reasonable suggestion, so long as it's "opt-out" toggle. That way, us newbies get to be rescued, and you experts are not inconvenienced. Everybody wins!

The only time I have ever found rescue a useful skill is on Praetorium, when I am trying to pull someone on to an elevator so they don't get left behind. In dungeons, when I get pulled to a safe zone by a healer, I usually assume it was a mechanic and I immediately run out of it out of habit. If there is a need to change it, not sure there is, a free sprint would be a better use.

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Originally Posted by K_Sparks

As a new tank it makes me extremely uncomfortable for another player to take control of my character. On the other hand, it pushes me to be a better tank. So I'm split on the issue.

I main as heals and honestly I barely use rescue.

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you can learn to be a better tank by asking for tips, making friends and the like. It is not ok for players to abuse you to make you improve.

So this is kind of funny but, because of this thread, I removed Rescue off my hotbar, like I said I was going to do. Guess what happened tonight? No, seriously, guess.

On the last boss of Amaurot, during the death ray mechanic (or whatever it's called) the tank ran to a side platform that was getting ready to collapse. Not sure if he panicked or what, but he ran to it. I was on a platform right across from him, like on the same side he was on. I went to Rescue him over to me and was like, "DAMMIT! I took it off!" Sure enough, the platform collapsed and he died. We wiped. I'm not even sure if Rescue would have worked in that situation but I feel like I could have saved him with it. So, it's back on my hotbar now. :D

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Originally Posted by Lium

So this is kind of funny but, because of this thread, I removed Rescue off my hotbar, like I said I was going to do. Guess what happened tonight? No, seriously, guess.

On the last boss of Amaurot, during the death ray mechanic (or whatever it's called) the tank ran to a side platform that was getting ready to collapse. Not sure if he panicked or what, but he ran to it. I was on a platform right across from him, like on the same side he was on. I went to Rescue him over to me and was like, "DAMMIT! I took it off!" Sure enough, the platform collapsed and he died. We wiped. I'm not even sure if Rescue would have worked in that situation but I feel like I could have saved him with it. So, it's back on my hotbar now. :D

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Rescue would only have worked in that case if you would have positioned yourself directly on the opposing platform. If you would have tried that from any other platform you would have rescued him into his death due to fact that he would fall. It's a pull, not a teleportation skill.

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Originally Posted by Lium

So this is kind of funny but, because of this thread, I removed Rescue off my hotbar, like I said I was going to do. Guess what happened tonight? No, seriously, guess.

On the last boss of Amaurot, during the death ray mechanic (or whatever it's called) the tank ran to a side platform that was getting ready to collapse. Not sure if he panicked or what, but he ran to it. I was on a platform right across from him, like on the same side he was on. I went to Rescue him over to me and was like, "DAMMIT! I took it off!" Sure enough, the platform collapsed and he died. We wiped. I'm not even sure if Rescue would have worked in that situation but I feel like I could have saved him with it. So, it's back on my hotbar now. :D

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Also the point some of us were trying to make isn't to not use rescue. It has value, it's just to not be a jerk and abuse it lol. If you're saving runs from wiping, good on you! That's how the devs intended it.

To reiterate, I've come to understand that there are plenty of people who like/need to be Rescued, and I no longer think the ability should be flat out removed from the game.

I just don't want it used on me. Make it a toggle and add a debuff indicator on the Party List/Name plate of people who've toggled it off, so healers don't waste time trying to Rescue people they can't. It's really not as complicated as some people are pretending it is.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

you can learn to be a better tank by asking for tips, making friends and the like. It is not ok for players to abuse you to make you improve.

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Pulling someone into mobs or even trolling a player is far from abuse. Not sure what it is but people seems to lump minor inconveniences at best as abuse far too often. Sort of muddles the word "abuse" just my 2 cents.

I don't even bother with it. It's not on my controller layout. I have it in on a hotbar just in case, but I haven't used it since I got access to it.

All expert dungeons are really boring and 0 challenge. Having a tank that pulls literally 1 by 1 is far more annoying than a heal rescueing him into more mobbs to make pulls atleast slightly exciting and less tedious :shrug:

also, "the party dictates the speed" is a weird argument. The heal is part of the party and I believe that waaay more dps enjoy aoe-ing big pulls than spamming their single target rotations for 30 minutes... :rolleyes:

:tldr: just pull everything or get over heals that "damage" your "tank ego"

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

To reiterate, I've come to understand that there are plenty of people who like/need to be Rescued, and I no longer think the ability should be flat out removed from the game.

I just don't want it used on me. Make it a toggle and add a debuff indicator on the Party List/Name plate of people who've toggled it off, so healers don't waste time trying to Rescue people they can't. It's really not as complicated as some people are pretending it is.

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Nobody wants rescue used on them. I can't think of any reason why someone would actually want to be rescued outside cheesing a mechanic. That's why I used the honeybee stinger analogy earlier. You know the bee is there to help and support, but the honeybee doesn't want to sting you anymore than you want to get stung. It's not the best analogy, but one that I feel accurately expresses that Rescue wasn't necessarily demanded by healer or non healer, but the devs felt they needed to equip them with the ability, and good healers have been able to use it effectively.

In terms of a toggle, I will say again that if they did this they might as well delete the skill. Some of you seem to think that myself and other healers can fire of Rescue as easily as flexing or extending a limb. It doesn't work that way and anyone who spends time healing should acknowledge this as well. Having to evaluate my party list to see who can and can't be rescued is utterly ridiculous to ask of a healer. It might be easier on PC, but it sure in hell is going to be on a controller. This method is similar to the gripes current AST has with card distribution. When used reactively, there simply is not enough time to evaluate the party list to see if the person who needs to be rescued, can be rescued. The toggle will never happen so let it go.

Rescue for all intent and purposes is a placement skill that gives the healer the ability to communicate to the player being rescued, "You need to be here, because where you were is not a good place to be." Healers with the amount of downtime they have, is the role most suited to have this responsibility.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

All expert dungeons are really boring and 0 challenge. Having a tank that pulls literally 1 by 1 is far more annoying than a heal rescueing him into more mobbs to make pulls atleast slightly exciting and less tedious :shrug:

also, "the party dictates the speed" is a weird argument. The heal is part of the party and I believe that waaay more dps enjoy aoe-ing big pulls than spamming their single target rotations for 30 minutes... :rolleyes:

:tldr: just pull everything or get over heals that "damage" your "tank ego"

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Originally Posted by Awha

Pulling someone into mobs or even trolling a player is far from abuse. Not sure what it is but people seems to lump minor inconveniences at best as abuse far too often. Sort of muddles the word "abuse" just my 2 cents.

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Yep, these are the toxic players. If a tank isn't comfortable with large pulls, you should have the human decency to first communicate "hey I can take larger pulls" or just deal if they don't think they can. Everyone starts somewhere. Leave the run if the pull speed isn't to your liking but don't bully someone into compliance by abusing a skill that is meant to save people in clutch situations.

Only toxic ass people are arguing against the basic premise here of "communicate to your team members".

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Yep, these are the toxic players. If a tank isn't comfortable with large pulls, you should have the human decency to first communicate "hey I can take larger pulls" or just deal if they don't think they can. Everyone starts somewhere. Leave the run if the pull speed isn't to your liking but don't bully someone into compliance by abusing a skill that is meant to save people in clutch situations.

Only toxic ass people are arguing against the basic premise here of "communicate to your team members".

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Team members also work for the good of the whole team, not just themselves. You can't smokescreen with "you're toxic because you only care about yourselves" while shilling the tank's whims and laziness to the detriment of the whole team.

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Yep, these are the toxic players. If a tank isn't comfortable with large pulls, you should have the human decency to first communicate "hey I can take larger pulls" or just deal if they don't think they can. Everyone starts somewhere. Leave the run if the pull speed isn't to your liking but don't bully someone into compliance by abusing a skill that is meant to save people in clutch situations.

Only toxic ass people are arguing against the basic premise here of "communicate to your team members".

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For what it's worth, the forums are way more toxic than the in-game community, which in my experience is a lot nicer and more helpful.

The forums is just mostly a hive mind, full of keyboard warriors. People that post here thankfully don't represent the overall playerbase.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Team members also work for the good of the whole team, not just themselves. You can't smokescreen with "you're toxic because you only care about yourselves" while shilling the tank's whims and laziness to the detriment of the whole team.

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Well, here's the thing. If the tank is not pulling to your liking, you can ask them to pull more. If they are not comfortable with doing that, you have two options. Suck it up and deal with it, or leave the group. As a healer, leaving the group is no big deal. You have to eat a penalty, but after it wears off, you have near instant queues.

Life is not complicated.

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Yep, these are the toxic players. If a tank isn't comfortable with large pulls, you should have the human decency to first communicate "hey I can take larger pulls" or just deal if they don't think they can. Everyone starts somewhere. Leave the run if the pull speed isn't to your liking but don't bully someone into compliance by abusing a skill that is meant to save people in clutch situations.

Only toxic ass people are arguing against the basic premise here of "communicate to your team members".

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I communicate but simply voting to remove the element for the party. That aside, let me ask you this. At the core I think we can agree the the base function for each role is fairly standard right? Tanks, hold aggro, Dps, deal damage, and healers heal right? Now here is what I get confused by people, thinks like pull size, and pace do not inherently align with any one role per-se so why is it that tanks feel the need to claim those two elements as part of their role identity? To assume that they are perfect leader of the group due to their role does not seem like acceptable team behavior.

Though, sure if that makes me toxic, bully, or some kind of abuser because I do not bow down to the tank because they put their foot down because they come up with thousand and one reasons as to why large pulls cause them anxiety fair enough. End of the day if large pulls result in such a degree of anxiety that someone is unable to perform their basic function of using abilities to fulfill their role, they got properly have much larger issues they need to focus on.

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Originally Posted by Lium

For what it's worth, the forums are way more toxic than the in-game community, which in my experience is a lot nicer and more helpful.

The forums is just mostly a hive mind, full of keyboard warriors. People that post here thankfully don't represent the overall playerbase.

Well, here's the thing. If the tank is not pulling to your liking, you can ask them to pull more. If they are not comfortable with doing that, you have two options. Suck it up and deal with it, or leave the group. As a healer, leaving the group is no big deal. You have to eat a penalty, but after it wears off, you have near instant queues.

Life is not complicated.

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You have another option and people should use it more vote to remove the player. In the end it is not like voting them hurts a tank or healer all that much they get no penalty, and the group "may" no longer have to deal with a difference in play style.

True, there is a third option. But when I play as a healer I find that option to be a waste of time and energy. I'm not going to initiate a vote kick just because the tank is going too slow. I've been in plenty of groups where I didn't like the tank's pace. It's annoying to me (especially if it's late at night) but I just suck it up and deal with. I've also bailed on groups as a healer. Plenty of times. I do feel bad for the group sometimes because getting another healer may take a while, but I'm not gonna suffer through a dungeon that should take about 15 minutes to run, lasting more than 30 minutes because the tank is single pulling packs of mobs.

More power to 'em. They can just find a different healer.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Team members also work for the good of the whole team, not just themselves. You can't smokescreen with "you're toxic because you only care about yourselves" while shilling the tank's whims and laziness to the detriment of the whole team.

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To be fair we had a not so small discussion awhile back about how rescuing the tank is faster and easier than talking to them directly in chat, so it absolutely goes both ways. Frankly I think most of this could be solved just by talking to one another. Most tanks I've met are willing to pull more if the healer doesn't berate them and honestly expresses that they think they and the group can handle it. Even when I had the worst of my tankxiety I would be willing to pull a lot more than I was comfortable with if the healer actually talked to me and treated me like a teammate, rather than a meat shield.

This whole issue could literally be solved if either side stopped assuming they're above basic communication.

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Originally Posted by Awha

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What?
No but seriously what?

What is a pull? It's an enemy being grabbed and the start of battle right?

What is pull size? It's the amount of enemies encompassed in that pull.

Pacing is a result of pullsize in this context. Single pull = slower pacing
Double pull = faster pacing.

What role is inherently responsible for initiating and maintaining the pull while another party keeps that party alive, hopefully dpses and the last party mainly burns it to the ground?

The tank. That's the tanks job.

Its also clear you haven't actually read this thread because no one is even advocating that the tank is the most important or the leader. They just naturally by nature of their role control the pull. That's how MMOs work. That's basic. That's fundamental.

Now if the party can handle larger pulls (because that depends on the healers ability to heal and the dpses ability to provide adequate dps to kill the mobs quickly enough) then notifying the tank that they can do the larger pulls is so simple.

Like it shouldnt be hard to be like "hey you can double pull I can handle this". Just like there are varying levels of tanks, there are varying levels of healers and some of them can't keep up with a double pull considering it's reliant on how quickly the team can burn that mob.

This role dynamic is so basic that if mobs focus a healer or dps they more than often die. Tanks are built to grab enmity and hold it. That is what a pull is. That is the tanks job.

As for the rest. Yes you're toxic. It's clear. Vote kicking someone takes more time overall than just being decent and saying "hey pick up the pace, we got this".

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

What?
No but seriously what?

What is a pull? It's an enemy being grabbed and the start of battle right?

What is pull size? It's the amount of enemies encompassed in that pull.

Pacing is a result of pullsize in this context. Single pull = slower pacing
Double pull = faster pacing.

What role is inherently responsible for initiating and maintaining the pull while another party keeps that party alive, hopefully dpses and the last party mainly burns it to the ground?

The tank. That's the tanks job.

Its also clear you haven't actually read this thread because no one is even advocating that the tank is the most important or the leader. They just naturally by nature of their role control the pull. That's how MMOs work. That's basic. That's fundamental.

Now if the party can handle larger pulls (because that depends on the healers ability to heal and the dpses ability to provide adequate dps to kill the mobs quickly enough) then notifying the tank that they can do the larger pulls is so simple.

Like it shouldnt be hard to be like "hey you can double pull I can handle this". Just like there are varying levels of tanks, there are varying levels of healers and some of them can't keep up with a double pull considering it's reliant on how quickly the team can burn that mob.

This role dynamic is so basic that if mobs focus a healer or dps they more than often die. Tanks are built to grab enmity and hold it. That is what a pull is. That is the tanks job.

As for the rest. Yes you're toxic. It's clear. Vote kicking someone takes more time overall than just being decent and saying "hey pick up the pace, we got this".

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I think they meant Vote Kick if there's no agreement after asking them to pull more.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I think they meant Vote Kick if there's no agreement after asking them to pull more.

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OH, my bad then. I read that and was mind blown lmao. The part about pacing and pullsize got me.

Yeah then I'll just dip back out. Anyone can choose to vote kick.

Still toxic to just blind vote kick and not talk to people though. We're all human.

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Originally Posted by Enla

This whole issue could literally be solved if either side stopped assuming they're above basic communication.

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Very much this. I would bet money that in the vast majority of content where players are grouping in an pre-organized manner, whether it be with friends, FC mates, in a static, in a PF group, etc. there is at least some level of communication. As soon as it's a random group put together by the game, however, everyone seems to forget that they can talk.

Idiots are gonna idiot and snowflakes are gonna snowflake but the vast majority of players in the game would be willing to cooperate if they just spoke up and said what they wanted. And, put simply, if you're doing content in a randomly organized group and aren't willing to cooperate then I think you really need to look in the mirror when it comes to where the problem lies. And that goes regardless of your "side" in arguments like this.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Well, here's the thing. If the tank is not pulling to your liking, you can ask them to pull more. If they are not comfortable with doing that, you have two options. Suck it up and deal with it, or leave the group. As a healer, leaving the group is no big deal. You have to eat a penalty, but after it wears off, you have near instant queues.

Life is not complicated.

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You also have the option of continuing to pull.

If a tank doesn't establish threat on enemies engaged with his party members he's not fulfilling his primary function, refusal to participate is against the ToS and is reportable.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

You also have the option of continuing to pull.

If a tank doesn't establish threat on enemies engaged with his party members he's not fulfilling his primary function, refusal to participate is against the ToS and is reportable.

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Except that you literally quoted the part where they said "are not comfortable with doing that." If you continue to pull extra mobs when they have already explicitly stated their comfort level, then you're literally just griefing them so you have the ability to vote kick. Are you honestly going to report someone for "refusal to participate" because you can't accept someone's ability or comfort level? Because the tank is 100% not the problem if you are just looking for reasons to report folks.

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

OH, my bad then. I read that and was mind blown lmao. The part about pacing and pullsize got me.

Yeah then I'll just dip back out. Anyone can choose to vote kick.

Still toxic to just blind vote kick and not talk to people though. We're all human.

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Outside of raids I do see much issue when healers or dps feel the need to pull for me. It does not over complicate my role per-se depends if they face pull a pack of mobs and the group is so far away that they die before we can get to them. Overall though if a dps pulls I just grab the aggro and call it a day. Tank pulling is more convenient granted but it is not the end of the world if someone else pulls for the group if they are smart about it.

For me personally I do not think the tank is the only one who is capable of pulling. When I am new to a dungeon I rather have someone with experience lead the way and I just snap aggro off of them so I can get a feel for pull size from those that have ran it.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Outside of raids I do see much issue when healers or dps feel the need to pull for me. It does not over complicate my role per-se depends if they face pull a pack of mobs and the group is so far away that they die before we can get to them. Overall though if a dps pulls I just grab the aggro and call it a day. Tank pulling is more convenient granted but it is not the end of the world if someone else pulls for the group if they are smart about it.

For me personally I do not think the tank is the only one who is capable of pulling. When I am new to a dungeon I rather have someone with experience lead the way and I just snap aggro off of them so I can get a feel for pull size from those that have ran it.

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It's ok to have a personal preference but your preference isn't the majority experience for this game. The tank, healer, dps dynamic is well established in MMOs beyond just FFXIV.

And at the end of the day, the bottom line is a simple line of text in party chat alleviates all this nonsense posturing about personal opinions.

Public content is about teamwork. It's not hard to communicate and if it is hard for someone maybe they should be playing solo games. It's not just about one person.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Outside of raids I do see much issue when healers or dps feel the need to pull for me. It does not over complicate my role per-se depends if they face pull a pack of mobs and the group is so far away that they die before we can get to them. Overall though if a dps pulls I just grab the aggro and call it a day. Tank pulling is more convenient granted but it is not the end of the world if someone else pulls for the group if they are smart about it.

For me personally I do not think the tank is the only one who is capable of pulling. When I am new to a dungeon I rather have someone with experience lead the way and I just snap aggro off of them so I can get a feel for pull size from those that have ran it.

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Also, as crappy as hall of the novice is for teaching people how to use their specific jobs. It's clear that the game devs think the same of this dynamic just in how they train tanks versus dps versus healers because that's just about the only thing that content teaches with those rudimentary exercises.

Surprised they don't give players an opt-out of rescue. I'd turn that shit on in a heartbeat. /rescuepermission off

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

It's ok to have a personal preference but your preference isn't the majority experience for this game. The tank, healer, dps dynamic is well established in MMOs beyond just FFXIV.

And at the end of the day, the bottom line is a simple line of text in party chat alleviates all this nonsense posturing about personal opinions.

Public content is about teamwork. It's not hard to communicate and if it is hard for someone maybe they should be playing solo games. It's not just about one person.

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For me I just find it quicker to start a vote, if it passes cool, if it does not I either suck it up or leave (most often leave). Only other MMO's I personally have played was WoW (TBC) and FFXI, and it both of those games from my experience others pulled for the tank using CC. That is why for me I do not see the tank itself as a role that has the only capabilities of pulling. It may be easier for the tank to pull, but I will not lose sleep if a healer or even a dps pull for me, I just grab the aggro and call it a day. What role does the pulling does not change the part where the tank still has to garb the mobs to establish control.

As you said it is preference, you may feel simple line of text is easier, but for me just putting it up to a vote makes it easier. Reduces the chance of people going back and forth about the size of the pulls or speed. I see the vote feature as another means of communicating, if it passes it shows well darn maybe I did something wrong that they group did not like, or maybe they just did not like me. If it does not pass that shows well maybe this group is not meant for me. Text is not the only form of communication within the game.

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

Also, as crappy as hall of the novice is for teaching people how to use their specific jobs. It's clear that the game devs think the same of this dynamic just in how they train tanks versus dps versus healers because that's just about the only thing that content teaches with those rudimentary exercises.

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To be frank I do not agree with a lot of things the Dev's say or do. I just do me, and thankfully I rarely run into these issues since I mostly always play tank and healer.
In the end yeah prob "toxic" by most peoples standards, but that is life.

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Originally Posted by Doki

Surprised they don't give players an opt-out of rescue. I'd turn that shit on in a heartbeat. /rescuepermission off

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I am also shocked they have not done that, they did it in WoW when I played.

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Originally Posted by Awha

even trolling a player is far from abuse.

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Trolling: to harass, criticize, or antagonize (someone) especially by provocatively disparaging or mocking public statements, postings, or acts (Merriam-Webster)

I don't know, it doesn't seem that far from abuse to me.

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

What?
No but seriously what?

What is a pull? It's an enemy being grabbed and the start of battle right?

What is pull size? It's the amount of enemies encompassed in that pull.

Pacing is a result of pullsize in this context. Single pull = slower pacing
Double pull = faster pacing.

What role is inherently responsible for initiating and maintaining the pull while another party keeps that party alive, hopefully dpses and the last party mainly burns it to the ground?

The tank. That's the tanks job.
...

As for the rest. Yes you're toxic. It's clear. Vote kicking someone takes more time overall than just being decent and saying "hey pick up the pace, we got this".

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Thank you for responding! Opinions here are shocking!

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I think they meant Vote Kick if there's no agreement after asking them to pull more.

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No, I think he was pretty clear on how he communicates:

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Originally Posted by Awha

I communicate but by simply voting to remove the element for the party.

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Originally Posted by Awha

For me I just find it quicker to start a vote

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So, if I am learning to play a tank, and you happen to be my healer, you would ask others to kick me if pull size is not to your liking? You wouldn't ask me to pull bigger crowds, just straightaway vote?

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Originally Posted by Awha

To be frank I do not agree with a lot of things the Dev's say or do. I just do me, and thankfully I rarely run into these issues since I mostly always play tank and healer.
In the end yeah prob "toxic" by most peoples standards, but that is life.



I am also shocked they have not done that, they did it in WoW when I played.

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In connection to my earlier question, is this kind of behaviour common in WoW? Kicking people without telling them why?

You know, if you kicked me, personally I'd be scratching my head, thinking "I wasn't rushing, nobody died. I thought I was doing a good job." I wouldn't even realise what went wrong.

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Originally Posted by FiberBundle

Trolling: to harass, criticize, or antagonize (someone) especially by provocatively disparaging or mocking public statements, postings, or acts (Merriam-Webster)

I don't know, it doesn't seem that far from abuse to me.



Thank you for responding! Opinions here are shocking!



No, I think he was pretty clear on how he communicates:






So, if I am learning to play a tank, and you happen to be my healer, you would ask others to kick me if pull size is not to your liking? You wouldn't ask me to pull bigger crowds, just straightaway vote?



In connection to my earlier question, is this kind of behaviour common in WoW? Kicking people without telling them why?

You know, if you kicked me, personally I'd be scratching my head, thinking "I wasn't rushing, nobody died. I thought I was doing a good job." I wouldn't even realise what went wrong.

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Meh, for me trolling is one of those things where you give the person all the power via your response and of reaction. I would not lump trolling in with abuse but that is probably mostly due to my upbringing where I saw real abuse between my parents, but hey if you want to lump trolling as abuse go for man, seems kind of silly imo when compared to other forms of abuse but that is me.

To be honest, not really most the time the group would just ignore the tank all together in a leveling dungeon if they were doing single pulls or were slow. Though the class dynamic differs in WoW survivability of the classes especially dps and healers is much greater.

Though to answer your main question yeah I would initiate a vote to remove ya if you were too slow for my taste. If it passes cool, does not I just leave, sometimes I stay. In the end asking someone to do something directly is bothersome, they did not do it from the start to whatever reason not my place to question it. Asking may work for some, but rather avoid that lovely moments where you ask someone and they say nah, then creates and pointless back and forth. Seen if happen while leveling a dps, someone asks for larger pulls or asks for smaller pulls and another person tells another nah l2p.

I am just not the type of player to go out my way to teach, explain, or ask someone to change how they are playing I will just see if the group wants to remove them and go from there. More power to you if you are willing to show a new tank or whatever the ropes. Sure maybe in that moment you may not realize, but either way you were able to get out of a group that for whatever reason did not wish to continue playing with ya, and you have no penalty. Seems like a win in my book.

I get my view differs greatly from the norm, but it has worked for me all this time. Sure I may not mesh well with the friendly community image FFXIV. What can ya do about it right? Sure I could be more accommodating, but does not seem worth it and probably would burn out if I tried to communicate and help each player I ran into doing someone head scratch worthy.

I decided to run some dungeons as tank tonight and intentionally did smaller pulls stopping near more packs of mobs trying to bait the healer to rescue me. 10 runs and it happened only once. That's not my point though. What did happen more frequently were the DPS running ahead and pulling the mobs forcing me to pull the mobs I did have a hold of out of my Salted Earth.

What I find happening to tanks is they are forced to snag aggro on more enemies than they pull on their own; one way or another, and this has been going on even before Rescue was available to healers (I started tanking back in HW). Deleting Rescue won't stop this from happening. The one time it did happen, I noticed something. I noticed that if I had to choose between DPS pulls and Healer Rescue-pulls, I'll take the latter. It is actually more favorable since it seriously makes positioning easier, mitigates damage from the current pack since they have to catch up to me, and I also save GCDs. However, I found it to still be inefficient in comparison to the tank Leeroying the whole dungeon.

In short: Rescue isn't the problem.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

In short: Rescue isn't the problem.

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It never was, the problem has always been the player using it.

Smokescreen, forget other ninja skill name that gave target their enmity, were both cited as skills people would troll with, what happened most didn’t do it, they are removed now not due to the potential abuse that they could cause but because SE wanted tanks alone to deal with enmity.

Shirk was and still is cited for people to troll with it (there was one time my raid group for Alphascape literally played hot potato with Chaos normal) it is still around because of how useful it is.

Rescue will be here to stay until they designed things where they don't want it anymore, and any chance at a toggle to invalidate a single ability's existence is next to none(is there a shirk toggle? No then there won't be a rescue toggle) , and such a thing if came about would make the delay on Rescue worse.


In all my time healing since rescue was a thing i've had 1 complaint and a few fat fingers which I always apologise for and I have used rescue a lot(on average about 3/4 times a week). The one complaint; I moved a 2 vuln stacks Blm outta their leylines while solo healing due to the other healer dc'd and my tank was mt in alliance raid and they were new, my response, I do not care, my tank is taking eractic damage since they do not know when best to pop cds, I am solo healing and I do not need a 3 vuln stack Blm who would need personal mitigation for every raid wide, either dodge or die, i'd rather you live and contribute so I rescued you, deal with it. They said they would report for abuse, I said go ahead, yet to have any GM chat been a few months so I doubt it'll happen.

As someone who often playes tank in Dungons I have never been pulled into a mob from a healer but that might be because I am doing big pulls most of the time anyways. One exception is the big pull before the last boss in Anamnesis Anyder and I had exactly one healer (out of about 20 runs) that expressed to not agree with doing it in 2 pulls and he asked me politely in chat to pull more.

On using rescue, myself. I have used it a few times to get some sprouts to clean doom, avoid certain death mechanics etc. I pulled a tank forward exactly 1 time and that was in the wanderers palace(hard) where the mobs get a buff if they stand in the red stuff so I pulled him forward a bit so that the mobs don’t get a buff anymore and informed him in chat why I did that. (yes, you can also dps that down but no one really does that)

I have used it when I am with friends (emphasis on friends here) to pull someone over the edge with me or do some other shenanigans for laughs but that was in a controlled setting with only friends so no Randoms where harmed in the process XD

In short: rescue for me is an extremely helpful skill (especially in mentor roulet) to teach new players where to stand IF you give them an explanation in chat after/before that to tell them why you did it just randomly pulling people all over the place does not really help them if they don’t understand what is happening.

Saw someone in Sunken Temple Hard use Rescue to pull a first timer out of the way of the mummies on the last boss right before he got trampled just the other day. It was pretty great.

Most of the times whether I'm in the role tank, DPS or Healer and another healer uses rescue on me trying to save me from one AOE they just drop me in another one. It is one thing to die from my own stupidity but dying because of other idiots makes me mad. This skill needs to removed ASAP. It is a troll skill and the game will be better without it. You don't even have to replace it just REMOVE it.