On Red Mage melee...

[Scuro]

RDMs Melee? lulwut? I thought that was BLU?

[Doombringer]

i'd like to start by giving rdm native access to vorpal blade. i know some have asked for a new elemental weaponskill to play off the magey side of things.. but vorpal blade is right there.. besides, is it such a big deal to melee in melee gear?

then a new tier of enspell, one that's actually... you know... good.... or just remove the multi-hit restriction from enspell2, and make it calculate damage on CAST, not on HIT.. again.. why should i wanna melee in my enhancing gear? some people have mentioned that this conflicts with dnc and samba. i'd be willing to just shelf that concern for now.. i don't wanna build MY job around somebody else' ability... of course if people insist that this IS a big deal, we could add enspell3 and keep enspell2 as is.. whichever.

i think my ideal enspell3 would be like karbuncles, but dealing non-elemental damage with just the added effects being tied to the stated element. this way you don't get forced into a "bad" enspell or a "bad" buff/enfeeb. this would also reconcile my view of rdm with the se manifesto.

then i'd like rdms native sword skill brought up to A-, equal to blu's. it's a small difference but it's the principle of the thing...

then some mechanic to further mitigate spell cyclings effect on melee. there's a ton of ways to do this and i'm just gonna rattle off a few in no particular order:

1) give rdm a job trait that allows them to swing during casting. the ideal form of this trait would just ignore the fact that the rdm was casting and he'd swing away normally while the spell happens as a seperate action. i'm not sure if this would suck or be overpowered or be just right... considering you can't wear melee gear and casting gear at the same time... it SORTA balances itself out... they could also make it so that the rdms delay timer keeps ticking away while casting, at different rates as stronger levels of the trait are gained. (so your melee can still happen while casting, but it is slowed during the cast. as you lvl the "slow" effect weakens.) this is easily the most far fetched and unlikely.

2) just make composure effect everybody already... the af3 can then add greater duration on top of that. it's just plain easier to cycle spells when everybody is on the same duration anyway. this seems like something that should have already been done, to me..... i just don't see how it could ever be overpowered.. so why not?

3) auras! this ones my personal favorite. make any buff cast on the rdm, into an aura effect. (maybe make it a part of composure?) this saves time by cutting multiple hastes and maybe even a refresh or 2 out of the buff cycle, and allows me to grant buffs i couldn't before. i like this because it blends my vision of rdm with SE's manifesto. add gain-___, bar, phalanx, and whatever else SE adds to our list, even if self cast only (cuz this then MAKES that aoe).. and you're at least a bit closer to that "demi-god" benchmark. then consider mp and time saved on spells i CAN give? protect5, shell5, haste, refresh2 and regen2? granted regen2 isn't very dramatic but across 3-4 melees, for the duration/cost of 1 self cast? that adds up. and who knows, maybe we'd get 3 eventually? this ability could even serve double duty as a backline utility. you save less on hastes but more on refresh. swap the gain-str/dex for a gain-int/mnd. bars, phalanx, and regen may not be as important outside of aoe range but eh.... never hurt, right?

4) aoe spells, or a job ability to turn spells into aoe's. fairly self explanatory.. hard to get excited over after i imagine how auras would work.. but also probably less far fetched.. since this.. you know... exists on multiple jobs already..

EDIT 5) duh... just ramp up fast cast... this would be the least effective if taken on it's own but it's also almost definitely gonna happen at some point in the future. can't hurt.

i would see this as a good start for a front-line buff. it still wouldn't make rdm a DD, but is thf a DD? is dnc a DD? and all the while, absolutely none of that harms a backline only playstyle, while (imo) not being SO drastic as to require a negative "stance" effect to balance it out.



also.. if i stole your idea.. i'm sorry. a lot's been thrown around in this thread and i've read all 127 pages... i may well have "made up" one or more of these ideas while in fact i'm just remembering it.

[Swords]

Here's something that has kind of irked me over the course of the whole RDM melee debate, and that mostly stems from the requirement to utilize staves for any drastic situation. While having them in times were backlining isn't really an issue, it does create a plethora of problems for any one trying to melee. Even though we definitely don't need the affinity boosts from the staves for melee fodder, we still lose out on our biggest cure potency booster piece. In either case our dependency on the elemental/ToM staves put us in a bind, so I thought of two ways we might get around this.

1. A new Job Ability/Trait that eliminates the loss of TP gained when swapping weapons/sub-weapons.

This could open up a new door for the melee side, not just because it allows you to freely swap out weapons so you can optimally utilize staves when necessary, but it also allows the melee side to swap out TP gaining weapons and then throw on your most powerful sword/dagger to WS with. I don't know how well it could be implemented but it definitely adds flexibility.

2. Create gear that can come close too or match the potency of the staves that utilizes non weapon slots.

I know what your thinking, wouldn't that just force RDM further backline and create more balance issues, well yes and no. I was thinking of restrictive gear much like how hooded robes prevent you from equipping headgear, only this time the gear prevents you from equipping certain weapons (In this case Staves). Another alternative to this was the boosts could come from a latent effect such as having a Sword or Dagger equipped, or when staves are not equipped.

These are just some random ideas though, nothing set in stone and I really don't expect them to be an endgame changer especially with our heavy casting load, but it does increase our options a bit.

[Supersun]

Enspells conflicting with sambas is a pretty big thing.

I'd almost rather them just restrict future enspells to the first strike and double the intended damage than letting it activate on all hits.

Sure you might lose a bit if you double attack or are dual wielding a joyeuse, but that's nothing compared to the +50% damage bonus you can lose by excluding yourself from haste samba.

Besides, it's not like single wielding couldn't use the buff anyway.

[Doombringer]

Here's something that has kind of irked me over the course of the whole RDM melee debate, and that mostly stems from the requirement to utilize staves for any drastic situation. While having them in times were backlining isn't really an issue, it does create a plethora of problems for any one trying to melee. Even though we definitely don't need the affinity boosts from the staves for melee fodder, we still lose out on our biggest cure potency booster piece. In either case our dependency on the elemental/ToM staves put us in a bind, so I thought of two ways we might get around this.

1. A new Job Ability/Trait that eliminates the loss of TP gained when swapping weapons/sub-weapons.

This could open up a new door for the melee side, not just because it allows you to freely swap out weapons so you can optimally utilize staves when necessary, but it also allows the melee side to swap out TP gaining weapons and then throw on your most powerful sword/dagger to WS with. I don't know how well it could be implemented but it definitely adds flexibility.

2. Create gear that can come close too or match the potency of the staves that utilizes non weapon slots.

I know what your thinking, wouldn't that just force RDM further backline and create more balance issues, well yes and no. I was thinking of restrictive gear much like how hooded robes prevent you from equipping headgear, only this time the gear prevents you from equipping certain weapons (In this case Staves). Another alternative to this was the boosts could come from a latent effect such as having a Sword or Dagger equipped, or when staves are not equipped.

These are just some random ideas though, nothing set in stone and I really don't expect them to be an endgame changer especially with our heavy casting load, but it does increase our options a bit.

well... if they end up not giving us cure5... it shouldn't be an issue to start giving us more non weapon slot cure potency gear. wouldn't even need the other complications.

[Hyrist]

What would you give RDM to make it unique/powerful enough to be streamline DD?

I'm going to be general and speak in goals rather than specific updates. I'm also going to focus on utility aspects instead of raw performance buffs to Red Mage's martial aspects, which, I do believe they should get (at least a small bonus) in addition to this, which can be done in the form of new physical performance spells.

There are three primary routes to utility through melee that can be offered.

1. Enhancements to treasure, as we see with Treasure Hunter traits and Bounty shot. I do not believe Red Mage should receive anything in this category.

2. The ability to enhance the party damage output.

3. The ability to lower or recover party damage.

All 3 utility tools in the game break down to these basic concepts.

For the concept of the areas I believe Red Mage should be allowed to melee, I lean more to the idea of an ability that helps increase damage output, but giving Red Mage tools in both categories would not be game breaking, if Red Mage is forced to choose between them for the situation.

As far as what stats would be powerful enough to be included in the front lines, the possibilities are broad. But I would like to see something that favors the lighter DDs who lag behind your typical dominating 2h DDs. Things like critical chance, critical damage, attack increase/defense down effects are all good things that favor faster strikes and multi-hit crit based weapon skills more. But if we're going for a more general approach, that can expand easily to things as simple as skillchain damage increases, raw damage-per hit increase (like a debuff that works along the lines of soul-eater in adding to base damage rather than as an additional effect, so as it doesn't conflict with sambas). Or some sort of buff that increases WS output in general for everyone across the board.

On the defensive side, enemy accuracy reduction, enemy attack reduction, something to regard TP moves, these can all be added onto an effect based on melee swings, in combination, that would not only offset the risk of enemy WS, but make Red Mage's damage contribution a low-to-no-risk addition to everyone but himself by virtue of being in AoE range.

As far as "Go out and do it." When I am on, and on Red Mage, that's what I do. I go for Procs, I open for skillchains, I close the ones I see were free, and I do this on top of other support functions. I focus on using my melee to enhance damage of those around me and function as a utility, rather than go "whee I can be a melee DD too!"


But Red Mage who do front line widely differ on what they want to regard RDMs front lines, but are fairly united in wanting to see a greater purpose for it. The ultimate decision of course lies with SE and I'd love to see some actual feedback from them on what they think on the matter.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Enspells conflicting with sambas is a pretty big thing.

I'd almost rather them just restrict future enspells to the first strike and double the intended damage than letting it activate on all hits.

Sure you might lose a bit if you double attack or are dual wielding a joyeuse, but that's nothing compared to the +50% damage bonus you can lose by excluding yourself from haste samba.

Besides, it's not like single wielding couldn't use the buff anyway.

That's why I advocated for JA haste (if they were going to give a serious melee buff but idrc all that much), so even if you don't get Haste samba it's not as big a deal. Doing more damage doesn't really hurt either as long as it isn't 'overpowering', which SE seems to have a problem with.

[Hyrist]

I'd rather just not the buff conflict, honestly. Additional elemental damage shouldn't come at the cost of JA haste. Ever since Dancer came out there's always been that enspell conflict. And I hated it.

Initial strike is the only way around it currently, and that only works dependably dual wielding, and EnIIs are still broken.

[Supersun]

Not gonna lie this is one of the most pointless ideas I've ever thought of

...but I want it anyway.


T3 enspells should give a sagasinger aura like effect on our sword with a color that matches the enspells element

...just because it would be awesome lol.

[Doombringer]

Not gonna lie this is one of the most pointless ideas I've ever thought of

...but I want it anyway.


T3 enspells should give a sagasinger aura like effect on our sword with a color that matches the enspells element

...just because it would be awesome lol.

that WOULD be awesome.... while we're on the topic of awesome and unlikely.. how about an enspell that absorbs tp... if strong enough that would be a MASSIVE dmg buff for the rdm (all that free tp, even if you're stuck with death blossom/evisceration, is gonna add up) while at the same time giving the ability to severely mitigate the mobs tp moves. of course this requires that it drain more tp than the rdm feeds... wich is like... crazy overpowered.. but if it does any less then the rdm is still "adding" tp to the mob, so ppl could still complain..

alternately, what about an enspell that just destroys mob tp at some ratio of dmg dealt. so it deals non elemental dmg at whatever the normal enhancing calculation would be, then deals... half that much. to the mobs tp. (or a third or a quarter or whatever) in the end though.. for it to really change minds it still needs to destroy more tp than the rdm feeds.. wich would still leave it overpowered for solo play.

would be crazy useful though, even if it was just added on it's OWN and not part of a larger update.