On Red Mage melee...

[Rayik]

This is the important point that a lot of people are missing.



Seriha, Supersun, and Hyrist disagree with me and I'm not accusing them of trying to destroy Red Mage. Duelle is the one trying to nerf Red Mage's spell selection and casting abilities. That is pretty screwed up, and I dare say I'm confident enough to speak for many Red Mages when I say that we will not stand for it. I could care less about a melee buff, provided that it does not nerf our magical aspect or take away development time from our magical aspects. The latter is still a big deal. Hours spent figuring out the balance and implementation of a new Melee ability are hours spent doing absolutely nothing for the successful aspect of Red Mage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he simply suggest a stance for melee? If you don't want to melee, don't use the stance, your spells would be just fine. Again, sorry if I misread his suggestion.

This is pretty off base. We miss all of, what, Cure V, Regen 3, and T5 nukes / -Ga nukes? Red Mage has an astoundingly powerful spell selection, all things considered. Especially because we're not shackled down with the same horseshit that Scholar is. Stances that simply increase melee potency or increase magic potency? That's fine. I can just fulltime the magic one, win/win. Stances that affect spell selection and/or nerf casting abilities/ranges? No.

Yeah, we get some nice spells, and everyone else in the game gets nicer ones. And yes, since you have no interest in melee, just fulltime the magic one. Win/win.

Chant du Cygne is the best Sword WS in the game. Use that. (inb4 getting WoE weapons is hard. Goes back to point #1, if Rdm melee sucks, get better gear and it won't suck. Every job is the same).

I'm working on getting this WS. I'm not putting my faith in SE to help our native WS, so it looks like if I'm going to really get anywhere with melee, I'm going to have to break down and get CDC. I still don't think we should have to finish an Empyrean weapon to get a decent WS, but that seems to be where we're at, so be it.

[Greatguardian]

Red Mage has some of the best overall gear access in the game, it's actually one of the job's strengths. It can be geared to do just about anything, that's why it's on things like Atheling Mantle and Calmecac's. However, I strongly disagree with the notion that gear should be a prerequisite to do things at an acceptable level. That's what it comes down to, isn't it? Empyreans are just another piece of gear. WoE Weapons were specifically designed so that casual players can use the same Empyrean WS as everyone else. WoE weapons are not "High end", "Difficult", or "Limited" gear.

If a Red Mage wants to cast, he better have some staves finished. If a Red Mage wants to melee, he better have a WoE sword. If anything, it's easier to finish than a single Magian Staff =/.

[Rayik]

Yes. Meleeing is indeed an option. Every job in the game can do it.

And not every job in the game has self-only enhancing spells solely for melee, and JA abilities that contribute to it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Rayik]

Red Mage has some of the best overall gear access in the game, it's actually one of the job's strengths. It can be geared to do just about anything, that's why it's on things like Atheling Mantle and Calmecac's. However, I strongly disagree with the notion that gear should be a prerequisite to do things at an acceptable level. That's what it comes down to, isn't it? Empyreans are just another piece of gear. WoE Weapons were specifically designed so that casual players can use the same Empyrean WS as everyone else. WoE weapons are not "High end", "Difficult", or "Limited" gear.

If a Red Mage wants to cast, he better have some staves finished. If a Red Mage wants to melee, he better have a WoE sword. If anything, it's easier to finish than a single Magian Staff =/.

Empyreans are absolutely not "just another piece of gear" if it grants the most powerful sword WS in the game.

Like I said above, I'm working on getting CDC now.

[Greatguardian]

Empyreans are absolutely not "just another piece of gear" if it grants the most powerful sword WS in the game.

1) WoE weapons. Casual content. Easier than a Magian staff.

2: You're posting really fast so I'll just move this here,

Edit: You posted as I was writing, so yes, you did misread Duelle's suggestion. Rather, you missed an important tidbit he keeps putting in and then trying to ignore when people read it and realize what he's saying.

He doesn't just want stances. He wants to split the Red Mage spell library in two and only give access to certain spells when under certain stances. In particular, he has mentioned only making Blink and Stoneskin available while in Melee stance, and has made allusions to other significant spell cuts to magical Red Mage.

It's like Scholar's Arts/Addendum system except even worse for the player.

[Rayik]

1) WoE weapons. Casual content. Easier than a Magian staff.

2: You're posting really fast so I'll just move this here,

Edit: You posted as I was writing, so yes, you did misread Duelle's suggestion. Rather, you missed an important tidbit he keeps putting in and then trying to ignore when people read it and realize what he's saying.

He doesn't just want stances. He wants to split the Red Mage spell library in two and only give access to certain spells when under certain stances. In particular, he has mentioned only making Blink and Stoneskin available while in Melee stance, and has made allusions to other significant spell cuts to magical Red Mage.

It's like Scholar's Arts/Addendum system except even worse for the player.

Yikes, I did misread then. I could understand if it were only while under the effect of a stance, but completely chopping our list in half is pretty cruddy. This game has come too far to see any job get such a massive overhaul, especially a primarily negative one.

And yeah, I'm on my lunch break at work, so I'm pretty much just on here posting. In case I dind't make myself clear before, I don't want the mage-side of RDM to suffer. I enjoy meleeing when the option is viable, but I didn't get to 90 just meleeing. I'd be okay with something optional, like a stance, but I think that's even pushing it at this point.

When I next log into the game, I'm going to start getting my trials together for a CDC sword. No sense making any further arguing or fighting when a perfectly viable option exists in-game to do what I want to do. I'm glad to have a discussion on the ins and outs of the job, but I'm sick of fighting. Maybe my coffee wore off.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I should avoid wall post of death. Simply there are other hybrids that do many functions with ease, we dont NEED to melee. But if we are to melee as we want to, we NEED to do it better. Sure an empy ws solves some hurt but as many say, we should have something to use until then or have a second option other than doing a empy/mock weapon. The renovations we need to melee come with more opened native ws, access to more daggers, and most of all, more standardized melee-able gear. While some dont want us to melee better, or think we dont, some of us do think we need it, and as nice as it would be to have a special role to fill that needs our brand of melee, we cant expect it and i for one would just like to when able to, be able to slap on the melee gear i do have, and help my dd buddies tear into things. Not because melee is cooler, or more powerful than magic, but because it can be sustained longer without rest compared to magic. In short, more gear, more native ws, maybe a stance or trait to offer a boost to meleeing. Thats what i want most personally. Short, simple, to the point.

[cidbahamut]

Yikes, I did misread then. I could understand if it were only while under the effect of a stance, but completely chopping our list in half is pretty cruddy. This game has come too far to see any job get such a massive overhaul, especially a primarily negative one.

And thus we have come to an understanding.

[Karbuncle]

This topic moves fast, Anyway, to Rayik i think.

Yes, This is an Role-playing game, The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the Roleplaying the game wants you to do and the Roleplaying you want from the game is not the same. This is the case with RDM in FFXI.

Thats all i was saying

[Rayik]

This topic moves fast, Anyway, to Rayik i think.

Yes, This is an Role-playing game, The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the Roleplaying the game wants you to do and the Roleplaying you want from the game is not the same. This is the case with RDM in FFXI.

Thats all i was saying

Agreed, but the role-playing most of the melee-RDM's want to do stems from an archetype created by the game, and that's where we're running into problems. We didn't just up and decide as a group "Hey! Let's all use swords! Game mechanics be damned!" the inspiration and imagery comes from within the very game that works against it. We're not just whipping out polearms and complaining, we're trying to make better use of what the game gave us in the first place.

And, I'm just a fan of the spell-casting swordsman. It's my favorite fantasy archetype, and the main reason I leveled RDM in the first place. Had I known back then that the game itself doesn't really support that play style, I likely would not have leveled the job. But that's just my experience.