On Red Mage melee...

[Seriha]

However, I strongly disagree with the notion that gear should be a prerequisite to do things at an acceptable level.

I'm confused. For all the talk of how if one should want to do X, they need to chase gear for X, you say something like this? One of the biggest arguments has been the overall gap between having and not having such gear, though, and that ties into issues relative to skill ratings, native WS, inventory space (much to your chagrin), actual performance with said gear (which inspires, or doesn't, others to help a RDM get it), and so on. The job's starting point isn't much of one, and we all saw how Doom's party emphasized the current gap, inequality in all party members or not.

I chuckle at the repeated reasoning that the old job description is invalid simply because it's old. This debate is not young by any means. In fact, it's gone on so long that we get people like Tybud skipping any sense of decency and reason because a few years ago someone disagreed with him on Alla, so now he'll just swoop in now and then with all the insults and profanity to "get to the point" like that will mysteriously make him right or suddenly get us willing to listen. Seems similar applies to Drjones, and Eeks never did clarify about his little crush on me when I asked about it. So, I can't help but feel a little bit of selective memory is being exercised when it comes to the age of these arguments.

That said, while the ideas have changed over time with some of the game's overall changes, the core desire really hasn't. Much as I disagree with Due's concept of stances with negatives, I can at least look at him and think he's trying instead of shouting things like "waste" or "impossible" like some are. We know the negatives. You know the negatives. Flex some imagination, play along. How would you make it work? Put those big brains to use, not just the big mouths. At least Karb's tried now and then, but admittedly there are times I question the sincerity given later postings. For all the kvetching about Q&As with bad questions or ideas, why not try to be the good ones? And no, washing your hands of the subject is not an option.

[Greatguardian]

As I mentioned earlier, I would be perfectly content with mutually-exclusive JAs which toggled Acc+15/Attack+15 and MAB+15/MAcc+15. Would it "fix" anything about melee? No, but it would buff it and help it do what it already can do better, while keeping Magical buffs in the loop.

I really don't think it's very possible within the constraints of the game for Rdm to suddenly start melee'ing things that it's unable to melee now without completely changing the job into DNC/BLU. That said, the only real complaint many people would have with a simple melee buff update is that it's essentially doing absolutely nothing for the majority of Red Mages.

I'd like to think that any Rdm who was serious about wanting to melee would have unlocked Death Blossom at the very least. I don't think the job really needs Vorpal Blade as much as it needs more proponents willing to gear it up. Getting a WoE weapon is absolutely not hard for the vast majority of the playerbase. Is it time consuming? Sure. But it's certainly not impossible for anyone, of any playtime and any amount of resources.

Right now, the pervasive idea is simply that "No good Red Mages want to melee", or "No good Red Mages bother melee'ing". This does much more to damage your cause than any WS access or gear access. As far as I know, it's damn near true. What well-geared Red Mages have ever stepped up to the melee plate? Doom is the only one I know of in recent memory. You could very well say that more would step up if melee was buffed, but would they? There is most definitely no shortage of well-geared Red mages. It's an extremely popular job. Are there really people who look at Red Mage melee, think it'd be fun, and then turn around and don't do it because of how weak it is? I couldn't say.

More than any sort of actual buff, most of the people here seem to just want to stop being laughed at by the community at large. Hey, that's fine. But the only way to do that, regardless of what buff or nerf you give melee, is to actually provide examples of RdMelees that are well geared and successful at what they do. Even Doom's set could use improvement. No one's perfect, but it's not like I see many other people (here or elsewhere) trying to step up to the plate with their Red Mages.

[Hyrist]

As I mentioned earlier, I would be perfectly content with mutually-exclusive JAs which toggled Acc+15/Attack+15 and MAB+15/MAcc+15. Would it "fix" anything about melee? No, but it would buff it and help it do what it already can do better, while keeping Magical buffs in the loop.

I'd like to see more than this, for both sides, honestly. RDM already gets ACC+15 on composure, and really isn't suffering all that badly from accuracy problems. I'd trade it for +15 base enspell damage though.

I'd like to think that any Rdm who was serious about wanting to melee would have unlocked Death Blossom at the very least. I don't think the job really needs Vorpal Blade as much as it needs more proponents willing to gear it up. Getting a WoE weapon is absolutely not hard for the vast majority of the playerbase. Is it time consuming? Sure. But it's certainly not impossible for anyone, of any playtime and any amount of resources.

If we're going to talk about Death Blossom as something as a valid requirement for anyone serious about RDM melee (I have it.) Then it needs to start being more impressive than what it is. Perhaps they can do that in the revamp of weaponskills in general to provide more of an impact, even if it's only in helping others. It's great that we have our own version of Ground Strike but it's pretty lacking even compared to Vorpal in some cases.

I am not opposed to the further encouragement of the melee camp wanting going out to get the CDC weapons, either one of them. They should.

Right now, the pervasive idea is simply that "No good Red Mages want to melee", or "No good Red Mages bother melee'ing". This does much more to damage your cause than any WS access or gear access. As far as I know, it's damn near true. What well-geared Red Mages have ever stepped up to the melee plate? Doom is the only one I know of in recent memory. You could very well say that more would step up if melee was buffed, but would they?

If it is given a purpose, yes. Right now, as stated multiple times, people refer to it as hobby level. Which means gear pursuits take a back seat to other pieces/job.

But if RDM has a job they can do their melee that is unique to them, then suddenly the persuit of martial gear stops being just something done for the fun of it. It becomes a part of what they offer to the group at large. Sure, chicken and the egg debate on whether groups would find it useful enough to encourage more to do it. But those who are on the fence or had desired for some more substantial back up from SE to take up this aim now would be given the go-ahead to improve on themselves with more earnest.

Hey, that's fine. But the only way to do that, regardless of what buff or nerf you give melee, is to actually provide examples of RdMelees that are well geared and successful at what they do. Even Doom's set could use improvement. No one's perfect, but it's not like I see many other people (here or elsewhere) trying to step up to the plate with their Red Mages.

This really makes me wish I played more. MMO's do not lend themselves well to a social life, however. I spent most of the past week catching up with friends I wound up neglecting trying to get back into the game earnestly. I just can't seem to balance that time well.

[Seriha]

Again, though, that "No good RDM..." sentiment thrives on an omnipotence of knowing how every single RDM is playing at any given moment across all servers (Not everyone records videos, parses, or feels the slightest bit inclined to post/brag on a forum). One doesn't need to be a master of the job to put the pieces together and realize the shortcomings even if focusing solely on martial skills. That's why I've tried to argue it's a bit of a catch 22 in that the rarity of seeing "good" melees is in part hampered by a mix of the game and their fellow players knowing of those shortcomings, whether or not those opinions are rooted in actual fact/knowledge or just what they heard once somewhere. Players then love to get snippy over mob choice, location, party formation, and then same. Basically anything to try and undermine someone bucking the norm.

Anyway, you'd only need to glance at the census to pick at the numbers for CDC-capable weapons in circulation. From there, we can't really break down which acquisitions are solely for PLDs, BLUs, RDMs, and any mix of the three. I'd argue the hierarchy would follow BLU > PLD > RDM in terms of what people consider "mains" to themselves and how their peers would respond to gearing them for the betterment of their group/linkshell. By default, BLU has the benefit of unique Abyssea procs and better traits to back up melee, and even without Almace, can do some nice things like Whisker burning to help earn their keep. While PLD doesn't particularly shine in Abyssea, pairing them with an Ochain certainly boosts their potential as well as serving as a reasonable preparatory step for the 91-99 push and eventual new-endgame. What is the ultimate benefit for RDM, though? "Melee fodder, magic bosses"? And if all you tend to do is fight "bosses" on the job with others? If such can come off as a wasted effort to me, I don't find it all that unreasonable for others to feel similarly. Delegating a melee RDM to a career of magian trials or old content because of the current state of things just doesn't strike me as a good motivation. Sadly, the FFXI I play tends not thrive on friendship and rainbows for gear acquisition, but instead point systems, priorities, and some unfortunate favoritism.

If the counter-argument to that is to simply get better friends or an LS, that's much easier said than done. The last resort is the PUG game, and... well, we know that can pretty much be like playing the Mog Bonanza in terms of success and failures (Nevermind actually being able to play RDM in the process depending on what presents itself). I am, unfortunately, more inclined to feel we're all greedy on some level and possess a particular distaste for anything that slows personal progress. That ugly facet of ourselves has reared its head many times throughout this thread. When you can curb that, that's when people start to get more accepting. Such is what takes Almace from toy status for us to an upgrade that benefits anyone we play with. Of course, I also feel we shouldn't be solely relying on a single weapon/WS to accomplish that, and in turn attempt to advocate other tweaks that might not mean so much individually, but collectively they complete the package.

[Supersun]

The biggest problem I have with the "just get CDC" argument is that it only looks at the short term.

I'm highly skeptical that weapons at 99 are going to get beaten by an Almace (85). That's just poor design.

I suspect that the Almace trials from now on are going to be a bit tougher then what your average person can obtain.

While WoE is still an option I really don't like the prospect of one sword being glued to my main hand to melee on any decent level.

Believe it or not there are situations sometimes that call for a non CDC weapon. Unfortunately in those situations you have to gimp your damage so much that melee Smns could likely do more then you because our Sword WS / Dagger selection is pretty terrible.

While the, just get an Almace, card works for now I can't see it being realistic at 99. People just aren't going to be willing to help a Rdm upgrade an Almace past (90) as long as it's just a toy.

I'd be very surprised if further magian trials for the Almace keep their current...soloability.

[Seriha]

Yeah, the unknown curve is something we need to be concerned about. Could it be something as "simple" as 50 Hahava kills? I don't know. Bluntly, I'm not looking forward to the promotion of inter-group competition like the current progress of mob drops can inspire. There's nothing fun about killing Bri and Sobek 30+ times for one person, let alone Apa 40+. Is it a "trial" in the pure grind sense? You bet. Is it an actual fun trial? Lemme consult a magic 8-ball on that one.

[Karbuncle]

So what do you guys feel would be a big enough buff to RDM that would make it melee worthy? I'm not here to shoot down ideas, I'm just curious if any of you know what RDM would actually need to become a capable Melee.

Melee DD is the hardest spot to fill in FFXI, Because so many jobs can do it.

What would you give RDM to make it unique/powerful enough to be streamline DD?

I'm not asking to shoot it down, in fact you'll get no criticism from me on it. i'm just wondering with all the back and forth if any of the Pro-melee crowd even knows what they're asking for, or if its just "I dunno i wanna sword things".

[Greatguardian]

If we were to talk about job hierarchies in a group scenario, then every single Almace ever made is simply a waste of a Kannagi. Every Twashtar is just a waste of a Ukonvasara. Every scythe and every polearm is a waste of a Verethragna. Rationing gear in this manner tends to happen when there is the assumption that the gear is actually difficult or time consuming to get.

Would I help a BLM friend get a Claustrum? Good lord, that would be a tough call. Probably not.

Would I help a BLU friend get an Almace? Sure. It's all of 2-3 days work for me and 2-3 other friends. Keep in mind, I consider BLU an absolutely worthless job as far as I'm concerned so there's no real difference between getting a BLU an Almace and getting a RDM one to me.

You're also precluding the fact that WoE sword is soloable, and much easier for the casual player to obtain. You don't need friends to help with that. Will it make it easier/faster? Definitely. But you don't need them.

My FFXI thrives on friendship and rainbows for gear acquisition, and I sincerely do feel sorry that it is not more common. I've finished multiple BLU and PUP +2s today for friends, while working on COR junk myself. I'm lucky, though. I have solid friends that I've known for a very long time, and who don't mind helping each other out. They may not all be very good at the game, but they're all smart enough to put away their egos for five minutes and let me or someone else more knowledgeable help them with gear or whatever else they need to better themselves.

[Eeek]

Hyrist, Seriha, Supersun - you three are hemming and hawing too much. If you all want to be acceptable melee RDMs, just go out and f**king do it. Go out, improve your melee sets, and get CdC. Badelaire +2 can be done on one's own time, and Almace is piss easy to complete up to the Apademak stage (and even he's not that bad).

The three of you are simply equivocating and theorycrafting/daydreaming instead of playing the game, having fun, and improving yourselves. Nothing in this life, in-game or otherwise, is permanent. We all had to radically regear our characters between the 75 days and now. Gear standards and selections will surely change on the road to 99 and beyond. Whatever your characters have right now will be pretty damn worthless the day the FFXI shuts down.

Everything and everyone you've ever loved will someday die.

Paralyzed into inaction is no way to go through life, in-game or otherwise. Go forth and live.

[Seriha]

So what do you guys feel would be a big enough buff to RDM that would make it melee worthy? I'm not here to shoot down ideas, I'm just curious if any of you know what RDM would actually need to become a capable Melee.

This is where you'll unfortunately not find a unanimous answer.

On the base level, the job needs to grow better. Blah blah Abyssea to 90 in a day blah blah, but just breaking down our martial growth leaves things primarily reliant on sub and gear. Prior to Composure, I'd fished for an ACC trait, maybe two. Our native skill leads to an ATK deficiency, so a trait here wouldn't go unwanted. Unsurprisingly, this doesn't stray too far from GG's notion of an ACC/ATK stance. Though, I'd argue we wouldn't really need the MACC/MATK in kind since we've long had that value MATK and then some. Of course, the MACC is still absent, though arguably unneeded until we step into HNMs like how Tiamat was.

But yeah, we'd hit a smidge harder, and at minimum, be 5% more accurate. Rationally, we can look to Enspells as our compensator for missing ATK, but resist rates and native MDB can cut into this potential significantly. We also know the T2s suck, both for their on-strike reliance to Enhancing Skill and in how their utility function is ass backward. Continually landing Enblizzard should be lowering Ice resist, not Fire, since odds are Fire weak mobs are strong to Ice, thus diminishing the already shoddy damage potential. From here, we also know Enspells don't play nice with Sambas, which means a melee RDM partying with a DNC can be wasting some potential. I'd also like to see Enspells apply to WS in some way, even if it's just a plain +ATK based on their damage, but I'd dare say the "dream" would be a variable elemental WS that changed element and SC properties based on your enspell.

Next basic point would be our gear. Haste is kinda scarce sub-70, so our differences tend to settle more on ACC or ATK, with dagger being a pretty shoddy weapon for WS without Evisceration and sword not being too far behind (especially without the EX WS). A lot of jobs show up on Dusk, yeah, but in the old game, others continued on to Homam, Haidate, other abjuration gear, and eventual game progressions from there where Goliard body, Turban, and Swift Belt became some more economical options, but obviously not enough to get people to turn heads.

Now, I could continue to prattle on about how better, more readily accessed gear would help, but it's a no brainer. Everyone would like more ATK, ACC, and Haste in hopes of branching off to other things like DA/TA, Crits, STP, and things other jobs have begun to. Personally, I'll never shake the notion that appreciable damage isn't important to this equation. We've got years of the "TP Feed!" argument fueling that, and people more readily respond to outright damage than some damage with utility. I can grasp that RDMs shouldn't be competing with WARs, MNKs, SAMs, and so on, but also acknowledge that damage flavors can come with things like WS/SC options where even RDM was better than it is now, Sword and Dagger wouldn't be able to outright emulate. So, on some level, these jobs are "safe" in maintaining some identity, even if they may never look at themselves in such a way.

But okay, let's say we take those baby steps, now what? We could edge further toward damage with spells that up personal DA/TA rates, Crit, Subtle Blow, and so on. Not the most imaginative options, sure, but they could help. Things start to get trickier when you look into utility options, however. What would "justify" maybe giving up 10% of a dedicated DD's output? Some call for enspells inflicting debuffs of their given element, but if Enstone couldn't beat Slow II or stack with it, what's the point? We also know debuffs aren't particularly called for on fodder, just slap a Dia if you can remember to and plow through it. I haven't actually touched on our casting burden at this point, but I would hope you'd seen me talking about extending the duration of buffs without requiring our AF3+2 set as part of our "growing" process and still fall back to my earlier notion of enspell fueled stances favoring either offense or defensive styles. Basically it buffs what we do now instead of outright creating new things, which could possibly be more difficult for SE to do with limited resources.

Part of theorycrafting, though, risks yanking things from other jobs. As I've said before, a lot of DNC's step abilities would've made sense for RDM to get natively if the job didn't exist. Prior to SCH, we'd also wanted a way to AoE buffs. Enter Accession. Heck, BLU also got Diffusion. The ability for nukes to contribute to SC creation is also something we'd asked for, but BLU and SCH have also received this idea in some form. Looking at Menifesto notes, you see people bitching about how WAR might get an ability to force a crit. How much could we justifiably "steal" as a class of current options out there? Sure, at the moment there's no means to offer an Addle-like effect to TP moves. No job can presently manipulate a mob's level, either. You could tie melee integration into these abilities, but some will be resentful that it does require stepping up, that it would require them chasing physical gear sets if they wanted to continue being a "good" RDM. As I sat here thinking about the WAR note, why not debuffs that could change a mob's weakness in respect to Slashing, Piercing, and Blunt? Though, I would say if such did tie into melee (based on the weapon type we were using), we'd need a definite bump in Clubs and club options since we're mostly on the low damage/mage clubs.

...and since this post is already long enough, I'll stop for now.